Russia is at it again!

[Ronnie]

Ronnie, I see a lot of misinformation in many places. And not only in the Western oriented sites, there is just as much *snip* in the Russian oriented press. Many people seem to base their pieces or commentary on the headlines and first three lines of text.
This is why I am becoming tired of any broad statements without specifics.

If you want to have an example of Russian misinformation, I can dig up a link to a site where the killing of the Dutch cameraman by a grenade is said to be a fake and that it was a car accident instead.

Sorry but I look at what I can establish as factual information and then make up my own mind. The surrounding exclamations I take as they are, made in order to confuse and influence opinions.

Shadow,  Last night CNN rolled footage taken by a Turkish news crew as they tried to get closer to s. Osseta to find out what was going on.  The tape is terrifiying as bullets are ripping through the glass of their vehicle as they try to retreat in reverse.  I have no idea how they managed to come out of it alive with one guy getting shot in the eye.

CNN could have easily said that those doing the firing were Russian troops but the tape never showed who was shooting so they said it was unknown if it was Russian or Georgian troops (or Ossetian BTW).

How do you suppose this event would have been reported in the Russian media?

[Ronnie]

One of the finer pieces of gibberish to come from your pen to date, Ronnie. You subscribe to the view that the US should be the Policemen of the World. I do not. Show me in the constitution or in any of the writings of the founding fathers where the charter of the new republic of democratic states is to be the policemen of the world? It certainly has nothing to do with whether one belivees in the existence of evil or not. You want the US to be the world's policemen, I do not. That is the disagreement.

A world without policemen is Utopia.  Imagine your town today without policemen.  Fact is, we had that in certain places in the old west.  It was not a pretty sight.

But you think the world is different.  There are no bad guys (oh, except the US..I forgot).  You think that countries will respect international laws, governments will govern peacefully and respect the rights of human beings.  That's why I say your view of history is twisted beyond all comprehension.

So you don't want the USA to be a policeman.  That implies someone else should do it (they are) or the role is unnecesary.  Wait, there is the stevie explanation: The US goes out and stirs up problems just so we can spend blood and treasure to quell them.  Yes, that would be insane.   Not sure what it says about someone who would seriously propose that hypothesis though.

You did not answer this question BTW.

StevieJ..  Your comments are quickly moving from merely absurd to the edge of insane.  What would be your view if you happened to be born Georgian? 

[steviej]

A world without policemen is Utopia.  Imagine your town today without policemen.  Fact is, we had that in certain places in the old west.  It was not a pretty sight.

But you think the world is different.  There are no bad guys (oh, except the US..I forgot).  You think that countries will respect international laws, governments will govern peacefully and respect the rights of human beings.  That's why I say your view of history is twisted beyond all comprehension.

So you don't want the USA to be a policeman.  That implies someone else should do it (they are) or the role is unnecesary.  Wait, there is the stevie explanation: The US goes out and stirs up problems just so we can spend blood and treasure to quell them.  Yes, that would be insane.   Not sure what it says about someone who would seriously propose that hypothesis though.

Well .... I think you sound pretty naive, tell the truth. So be it. I still contend there is nothing in our constitution, and no directives in the writings of the Founding Fathers, that our federation of democratic states call The United States, is chartered to be the world's policeman. I vote against it. You vote for it.

[BC]

BC.  Tell me about the checks and balances within the KGB Kingdom.

Quite irrelevant in the context of my post.. But if you insist.. -RU has a constitution and seem to follow it. US has one too but I'll leave that discussion for another board.

[Ronnie]

Quite irrelevant in the context of my post.. But if you insist.. -RU has a constitution and seem to follow it.

Irrelevant?  You talk about checks and balances and how the US has it and it works well, but you don't think a question about Russia's checks and balances is relevant?  Putin follows the Russian constitution?  Have another mushroom Alice.

[Lit_1nce]

Who was it that said our Constitution was "Just a piece of paper ?"

Worst President ever.

[BC]

Irrelevant?  You talk about checks and balances and how the US has it and it works well, but you don't think a question about Russia's checks and balances is relevant?  Putin follows the Russian constitution?  Have another mushroom Alice.

I was illustrating how checks and balances of different branches of government were an example of the need for checks and balances on a global scale.

git it?

[Ronnie]

Well .... I think you sound pretty naive, tell the truth. So be it. I still contend there is nothing in our constitution, and no directives in the writings of the Founding Fathers, that our federation of democratic states call The United States, is chartered to be the world's policeman. I vote against it. You vote for it.

Fine.  I'm naive because I think there are sociopathic people in the world.  But you're realistic because you just know the world's bad guys will turn good if we just leave them alone.  I see.   

Tell me where in the contitution it is forbidden to use common sense.  Tell me where it is forbidden to declare war on an enemy or to come to the aid of another nation.   I'll wait for your reply.

[Ronnie]

I was illustrating how checks and balances of different branches of government were an example of the need for checks and balances on a global scale.

git it?

Sure I got it the first time, and if the Kremlin is to be a counter weight should they not have their own internal checks and balances?  Fact is, they don't.  The have no free press.. It's the most dangerous place in the world for a journalist.  The have returned to soviet style elections and the KGB/FSB's budget is greater than at anytime during the cold war.  At least during soviet times, the KGB had to answer to the Communist party.  Today, they answer to no one.  As Putin said it himself, "we have successfully infiltrated the government."

No BC, we don't need criminals just because we have cops.  We don't need war, just because there is peace.  Balance of power assumes two or more different but rational and well-meaning ideologies.  Putin's KGB is neither well-meaning nor rational.

[Ronnie]

Who was it that said our Constitution was "Just a piece of paper ?"

Worst President ever.

Jimmy Carter said that?  Really?   

[Lit_1nce]

The problem with saying things like that about the Constitution, and things like "The Geneva Convention doesn't apply because it's old and outdated".. and then just basically doing whatever you want regardless of the laws (international and domestic).. Is that when you then try and take the moral ground of policemen, you don't have much credibility.

[Ronnie]

The problem with saying things like that about the Constitution, and things like "The Geneva Convention doesn't apply because it's old and outdated".. and then just basically doing whatever you want regardless of the laws (international and domestic).. Is that when you then try and take the moral ground of policemen, you don't have much credibility.

Dennis,
The United States, Britain, Australia, Denmark and many other countries collectively have decided the world needs policing and have picked up the heavy burden by default. 

That has been the case through many administrations and will continue to be the case through many more.  Bush was the lesser of two bad choices.   

Our founding fathers did not set up political parties and it's those parties who are to blame for giving the American people only poor choices on election day.  I was going to once again cast a protest vote by writing in "Lou Dobbs". 

Now I may be forced to pick McCain, a man whom I personally detest but who has at least a keen sense of the evil in the world.  He lived it.  He knows it like no other human being can.

Speaking of evil.  I would like to see if we can all agree on something and if we can't agree on this simple fact, then further debate will be pointless.

Can we agree that the KGB, now known as the FSB has been and continues to be a ruthless and evil body?  They have been implicated in so many murders, purges, supression of truth over the years, who can deny their evil?

If that can be agreed, consider the following:

On 20 December 1999, at an FSB party to celebrate the founding of the Cheka, the Bolshevik secret police, he told his former colleagues: "Dear comrades, I can report that the group of agents you sent to infiltrate the government has accomplished the first part of its mission."   http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7257310.stm

Let's not forget that the Cheka were the instrument of the "red terror"
And Putins comrades love to call themselves "chekists".  To them, it is no insult but a source of pride.

If we cannot agree that these chekists are running Russia, then the debate will be as men arguing about the habits of a penquin without agreement as to what bird they are referring to.
 

[BC]

Regarding credibility, the US took a big hit with Iraq.  Of course RU is going to take a hit also.  Normalna I say.

The big question is now that Rice is screwing around with the cease fire paperwork if the Russians will sign it.  Rice goes to France, goes to Tiblisi, gets herself into a 5 hour discussion, tweaks a few things and then takes it to RU and says 'sign it'?  I think not.. they will tell her to either change it back or take a hike.

Sure RU will keep up the pressure until it is signed as agreed upon.

It ain't over till it's over..  Lets see how badly she screwed it up.

[BC]

Ronnie,  Sure the KGB has dirty hands, so does the CIA, FBI  and other dark forces behind the lines.  Just look a few years back in US history.  You are going on tangents and aren't coming close to pinning the tail on the donkey's @ss.

[Lit_1nce]

I won't compare the evils of the KGB to the CIA.. But I think I should point out to you that When Bush senior was President, it could just as easily be said that the CIA had infiltrated the government... but really these are mute points because they are just different branches of the same government anyway.

As to the upcoming election, I have different reasoning behind my choices.. Although I respect people who served in the military (I did myself), I don't use that as the primary factor in determining who I think will get the country back on track.. I don't and haven't wanted to "stay the course" that has been set.. It leads off a cliff. The issues that we just discussed about the Constitution, Laws, and returning ourselves to a country that people like and admire again, are the issues that decide who gets my vote.

[Ronnie]

False comparison won't help BC and they reflect a weak position. 

GHW Bush was not a career CIA man. Putin is career KGB.
Bush served for a while (<1 year) in 1976 as a political appointee.   

When he becam president 12 years later, he did not fill his cabinet with CIA career men.  He did not nationalize corporations and put CIA cronies at the helm.  He did not murder journalists and take over the press.

CIA was never an internal secret police working to suppress and oppress it's own citizens.

If you cannot accept simple facts as they are, I don't know what can be done to help you.

[Shadow]

The United States, Britain, Australia, Denmark and many other countries collectively have decided the world needs policing and have picked up the heavy burden by default. 

Ronnie, if you are with a group of friends and you see a guy beating another friend of yours.
The first thing you do is call the cops, right ? Well the cops will tell you 'ok this is not a priority, we will come when we have time.'

Are you going to stand watching your friend being beaten to pulp, or are you going to chase the guy off ?

I am asking this because the world police, which is NOT the US but the UN, did not see the Georgian attack as a priority.
Russia did. You can try to drag criticism of the US, the whole history since the Russian first united against the Mongols and whatever else you want in to this.

However the matter that stands is that Georgia launched a full scale attack. Russia alerted the UN, but did not get any response.
As Russia has made a promise to protect the areas, they stood by their promise.
If that is bad, then I am a bad guy.

[wxman]

Russians troops at their best. Claim never to be in Gori, but it's nice to see they had time to rob a bank there. Real professionals!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1563317.ece

[Lit_1nce]

He did not nationalize corporations and put CIA cronies at the helm.  He did not murder journalists and take over the press.

It's more the opposite actually, the corporations have way too much influence in the government.. and the press (also corporations) have forgotten what journalistic ethics are.. which is why I and more than likely you, and most smart people have to scan the net for different news sources to try and gage what the actual truth might be... I wouldn't hold up our "freedom of the press" as anything now days.. although it may not be government doing the controlling, it is self serving the various corporations who are almost the government anyway.

[wxman]

It's more the opposite actually, the corporations have way too much influence in the government.. and the press (also corporations) have forgotten what journalistic ethics are.. which is why I and more than likely you, and most smart people have to scan the net for different news sources to try and gage what the actual truth might be... I wouldn't hold up our "freedom of the press" as anything now days.. although it may not be government doing the controlling, it is self serving the various corporations who are almost the government anyway.

Sounds like you are describing Ukraine! 

[wxman]

I think people give too much credit to Putin. He exists only because organized crime allows him to be in charge. As long as Putin doesn't try to take back all that the Russian mafia took after the breakup of the Soviet Union, he will stay in charge and alive.  The only thing Putin took back was the energy sector, and that only succeeded because he put mafia members who were loyal to him in charge of Gazprom. Organized crime runs Russia. Big corporation runs the US. Really, not much of a difference.

[I/O]

returning ourselves to a country that people like and admire again, are the issues that decide who gets my vote.

In my opinion, one sentence brilliantly describes the difference between much western thinking and much eastern thinking. Moscow administrations, with perhaps the exception of Gorby have delighted in being the place everyone loves to hate, or at least generating enough anti sentiment in western media to sell it to Russia that everyone hates us. Other than war, and I am not even sure war will do it to the same extent, nothing will mandate a government's place and gain maximum support from the people like believing everyone else is against us will.

Russians are generally politically ignorant and it plays very well into Moscow's hands. Here is an example from a recent discussion with a Russian friend by telephone. Naturally we were discussing the current scrap in Georgia. After receiving the usual earful about how justified Russia was, I began to slowly dismantle the argument. He's a good guy and he can see reason, but when we got to the subject of oil he demonstrated typical Russian political ignorance. "I/O this if ph***ing Eroonda...!!! This is not anything about oil, we have many oil (Yes I know, I interjected). I/O, this is ph***ing eroonda..!! There is many sunflowers in the region, come in any magazine today, I can show you, there is millions of oil on the shelves" (1 litre bottles of cooking oil that is). I did what? I smiled. The best was yet to come. The next day........."I have read about this Caspian sea oil today and I don't know why our stupid government wan't to control all this benzinne, we have enough". I suggested it might have something to do with controlling the price. He remarked, "we have a lot and they have little bit, we can wait and sell when the price is higher". I agreed (To an extent). He commented, "why we have always such stupid goverments, I don't understand". I suggested it was perhaps because people like him don't challenge the government. It got better. He responded, "you maybe be right but maybe we would get a worse government" and then the best came........."but why your media tells all bad things about our stupid government"?

Bluesfairy: IMO the above contains some clues as to why Moscow makes an artform of playing the bad guy. Moscow knows this all sells easily in the western media. The home faced arguments that Russia is disliked continues to protect the inner corrupt from scrutiny. It is commonly known as smoke screening. Selling a few arms to Iran fuels the fire of the western media, Moscow can point out the negatives the western media is suggesting and the cycle continues. IMO, Russia is much more simple than many try to imagine. Russia is about vast wealth, tightly held in the hands of a few people, fiercely protected by a corrupt political system which is in turn propped up by those few wealthy people, whilst distribution to the many is very limited. It has been the same so far back as I can read and through a million changes, it has all remained very much the same.

Botched wars and internationally unpopular or short term thinking are of no concern to Moscow as it simply keeps the system working just as it is. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

I/O

[Jack]

Organized crime runs Russia.

hey wxman,

I have a little different view and opinion on this topic, and a little insight to form this opinion.  I say that the goverment and the police control the mafia.  The mafia is told by the police and goverment what they can and cannot do. The mafia has it made now as long as they follow the rules as set by police and goverment.

[BC]

False comparison won't help BC and they reflect a weak position. 

GHW Bush was not a career CIA man. Putin is career KGB.
Bush served for a while (<1 year) in 1976 as a political appointee.   

When he becam president 12 years later, he did not fill his cabinet with CIA career men.  He did not nationalize corporations and put CIA cronies at the helm.  He did not murder journalists and take over the press.

CIA was never an internal secret police working to suppress and oppress it's own citizens.

If you cannot accept simple facts as they are, I don't know what can be done to help you.

Ronnie,

This is really off track, but I will indulge one last time.. Just to mention a few.. there are more..  Read all the material.. sounds like the same stuff KGB was up to.. or?  Arresting citizens without cause.. assassinations.. invading privacy..  political manipulation..  Yeah that's right.. doesn't count.

US citizens in internment camps

Revelations in 1970 about CIA assassination plots leads to prohibitions against U.S.-sponsored assassinations.

Watergate

McCarthyism

Patriot Act

[wxman]

All this rhetoric and posturing by both sides will eventually blow over.  The world is not the same as it was during the cold war. We now have a global economy. Everything is intertwined. Western companies in Russia. Russian companies in the West. Currencies and commodities traded on a global scale. Both sides are intertwined. We need them, they need us. They share the same mutual interests...money. Communism is not coming back, no matter how people wish to spin it. Capitalism, whether with a democratic system or not, is now the new global government. Money will make you, money will break you.  The smell of cash is the new drug.   "Money" by Pink Floyd is the new world anthem. The Communists use to say God is dead. God isn't dead, he justs lives in a better neighborhood and drives a Mercedes.