Russia is at it again!

[Ranetka]

1939- Finland

1956- Hungary

1968- Czekhoslovakia

1991- Lithuania

2008- Georgia

THE NEXT WILL BE YOU


Let's see some historical parallels, in 1918 Germany was defeated, like USSR was defeated in 1990 in Cold War against The West,  it Collapsed

after several years, Adolf Hitler became a Chanselor and Germany started to think about the glory. to invide other territories. After the collapsing Russia started to do the same, in Russia there too many NAZI ORGANIZATIONS, Ukranians will agree with me. Germany occupied the Sudet,whic was the part of Czekhia, the same size is Samachablo (S. Ossetia), then Germany wanted to get much more territories, including poland and so on. And finally both of them are the THIRD REICH, Russian Empire, Soviet Union and Russian Federation. Believe to us, to Georgians, Ukrainians, Baltics, Polishs, we know what RUSSIAN AGRESSION IS !!!! 

let's just nuke 'em

[Warrior]

Now everybody sees that Russians are NOT PEACEKEEPERS, they took part in the conflict as a side! They helped separatists, gave weapons and rather military support. They have occupied territories which are far away from the conflict zone, nearly 70 km and more. They are grabbing houses, administrative buildings and so on. These "peacekeepers" bombed other cities which as I said are far from the zone, bombed civilians. This is the real face of the Russian AGRESSOR Federation

[Ronnie]

Once again Warrior, your analogy is spot on.  Putin's declaration that the collapse of the USSR was the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century is at the core of his behavior.  He wants to rebuild the USSR only without the communist party to keep the secret police in check.   This can only result in a real catastrophe for Russian families.

[Warrior]

I know Ronnie will have already told about thisbut I want to add that there are too many russians in the east of Ukraine and with the support from kremlin they wanted to elect a pro-russian politician Ianukovich, but this operation failed. This means that russia still want's to take under controll our countries, tries to achieve this goal by many ways. That's why we need that Intenrational Society became more active.

[BC]

Here's a conversation I just had with one of our UA friends.. We've known each other for at least 10 years or so..  FWIW but is as 'front line' as one can get.. and absolutely nothing has been edited.

(2008-08-20 00:06:14) Brian: what ukraine think about georgia/russia?
(2008-08-20 00:06:36) Yaroslav: i think russia show it's real face
(2008-08-20 00:07:11) Yaroslav: most damaged what russians like such methods to resolve problems like "yes, kill them all"
(2008-08-20 00:07:34) Brian: yes.. but remember in many cases US set 'precident'..
(2008-08-20 00:07:55) Brian: for some reason I do not like saakashvili
(2008-08-20 00:07:59) Brian: strange man
(2008-08-20 00:08:05) Brian: more 'puppet'
(2008-08-20 00:08:08) Yaroslav: small countries are "hostages" in war of big empires
(2008-08-20 00:08:15) Brian: yes..
(2008-08-20 00:08:28) Brian: US did similar in Panama
(2008-08-20 00:08:41) Brian: made war to 'save US citizens'
(2008-08-20 00:08:53) Yaroslav: georgians more like usa because it more far and have no ideas to get it's territories
(2008-08-20 00:09:12) Brian: yes
(2008-08-20 00:09:24) Yaroslav: world all time will have such problems ..
(2008-08-20 00:09:29) Brian: I think this is move of RU to make 'statement' to west
(2008-08-20 00:10:01) Yaroslav: here we also have some same "disputable" with russia territory
(2008-08-20 00:10:10) Brian: yes crimea
(2008-08-20 00:10:14) Yaroslav: aga
(2008-08-20 00:10:21) Yaroslav: moldova also have
(2008-08-20 00:10:46) Yaroslav: russians many where tried to make same regions with "russians in local governmants"
(2008-08-20 00:11:02) Brian: of course.. same as US does
(2008-08-20 00:11:31) Yaroslav: not good for us because russia trying to build biggest and strongest country in the world, and it near and we have common border ..
(2008-08-20 00:11:41) Brian: did you know that at one time US support Bin Laden?
(2008-08-20 00:11:47) Yaroslav: ofcourse
(2008-08-20 00:11:53) Yaroslav: geopolitics ...
(2008-08-20 00:11:57) Brian: it is all politics... yes
(2008-08-20 00:12:26) Brian: the US pick very strange 'bed partners'..
(2008-08-20 00:12:42) Yaroslav: usa most far from here and has no such big influence like russia has here
(2008-08-20 00:12:56) Brian: true
(2008-08-20 00:13:20) Brian: think RU wants to keep some 'buffer' zone.. like US
(2008-08-20 00:13:46) Yaroslav: yes, it needed such in west this will be in future ukraine
(2008-08-20 00:14:24) Yaroslav: where they will be abble to fight with imagined enemy
(2008-08-20 00:14:57) Yaroslav: ofcourse they decided what nato the first enemy ...
(2008-08-20 00:15:44) Yaroslav: also bad because russian peoples become to hate usa and european peoples, and governmant support this ideology via tv and mass media
(2008-08-20 00:16:16) Brian: yes.. mass media is only 'propaganda'...
(2008-08-20 00:16:25) Brian: in bad term
(2008-08-20 00:16:46) Yaroslav: here we have no such big ideas like russia has to build first country in world
(2008-08-20 00:17:05) Yaroslav: so tv more free from ideology
(2008-08-20 00:17:20) Brian: US news 24/7/360.. much like brainwashing..
(2008-08-20 00:17:56) Yaroslav: yes, usa already became ussr in ideology and propaganda, not big difference as i see
(2008-08-20 00:18:04) Brian: think RU just saying 'this is line'.. don't cross and all will be ok
(2008-08-20 00:18:49) Yaroslav: for moment yes, they just demonstrate to world - we can resolve problems with power more quickly than usa doing or nato ..
(2008-08-20 00:19:27) Yaroslav: as putin said "if we have enemy we kill them in WC"
(2008-08-20 00:20:22) Yaroslav: in one time this empires will find what world is not so big for all of them, and some have to die ..
(2008-08-20 00:20:36) Brian: funny how Putin use prison slang sometimes..
(2008-08-20 00:21:04) Yaroslav: yes, and i affraid because russians like him more and more after such
(2008-08-20 00:21:52) Brian: yes.. but do you think RU people / not politics / against Ukraine?
(2008-08-20 00:22:31) Yaroslav: after brocke ussr was period with eltsin when all was good between peoples
(2008-08-20 00:22:59) Yaroslav: then russians became some nostalgik about old ussr and biggest power in world
(2008-08-20 00:24:19) Yaroslav: very often i heard som like "ahh it's pity, was so biggest country, we kepped all world in our hands.. and this idiot gorbatchov crashed all"
(2008-08-20 00:24:56) Yaroslav: and "will be best if we will revert all back and show "them"  who is father"
(2008-08-20 00:25:53) Yaroslav: here old peoples think same, this ok, they are kommunists in souls, but in russia this ideas in heads of young peoples
(2008-08-20 00:26:09) Brian: understand.
(2008-08-20 00:26:45) Yaroslav: and this big prices for oil and gas make them more ensured in their ideas
(2008-08-20 00:27:45) Brian: yes.. but do you think Saaksvili is 100 percent 'correct'?
(2008-08-20 00:28:30) Yaroslav: difficult to say, because he saw what loose 2 part of his country
(2008-08-20 00:28:45) Yaroslav: he got bad legacy from previouse governmants
(2008-08-20 00:29:45) Yaroslav: previouse schevardnadze was loyal for russia and allowed russian influence
(2008-08-20 00:30:20) Yaroslav: and they made good work with propaganda in osetia, in osetia now leads old kgb generals
(2008-08-20 00:30:57) Yaroslav: putin don't want to make independant osetian country from north osetia and south
(2008-08-20 00:31:20) Yaroslav: because for this purposes he have to loose his own north osetia
(2008-08-20 00:31:33) Yaroslav: much better to join south to russia also
(2008-08-20 00:32:03) Yaroslav: saakashvilli has small country and ofcourse it in this war looser
(2008-08-20 00:32:36) Yaroslav: when ussr was same once hapenned in praga at 1968
(2008-08-20 00:32:47) Brian: you think Saakashvili is west 'puppet'?
(2008-08-20 00:33:22) Yaroslav: and in hungary, not many peoples in other governmants such brave to kick bear
(2008-08-20 00:34:03) Yaroslav: no, i don't think what he is puppet, it more russian ideological trick, if you are not with russia so you ofcourse usa puppet
(2008-08-20 00:34:46) Yaroslav: "you with me or against me"
(2008-08-20 00:35:04) Yaroslav: ofcourse usa made some help to him
(2008-08-20 00:35:08) Brian: Does USA not tell same?
(2008-08-20 00:35:31) Yaroslav: they tell, but in georgia none usa army contingents
(2008-08-20 00:35:46) Yaroslav: and they have no vcommon border
(2008-08-20 00:35:53) Yaroslav: usa is bad
(2008-08-20 00:36:01) Yaroslav: but they have to make choice
(2008-08-20 00:36:41) Yaroslav: between russia which see in dreams osetia joined to russia or usa which far far far from us and just don't want russia to grow in power
(2008-08-20 00:38:57) Yaroslav: ru gov made good propaganda trick, first they "made" their peoples to hate usa and nato, then told - that country has governmant which is managed from washington! but we have usa and have hate that georgian or ukrainean gov same as we hate nato and usa
(2008-08-20 00:39:31) Yaroslav: "we hate usa" - type there
(2008-08-20 00:39:36) Yaroslav: typo ....
(2008-08-20 00:40:02) Yaroslav: and peoples "eating" this ideology
(2008-08-20 00:40:14) Brian: understand..
(2008-08-20 00:41:53) Brian: who you trust more..... USA / NATO / EU / or RU?
(2008-08-20 00:42:20) Yaroslav: 1) EU
2) NATO
3) RU / USA no matter
(2008-08-20 00:42:40) Brian: aga...now really understand
(2008-08-20 00:43:21) Brian: Remember our discussions in past?.. Ukraine consider UE as '
(2008-08-20 00:43:27) Brian: european>
(2008-08-20 00:43:58) Brian: UA.. sorry
(2008-08-20 00:44:16) Brian: you told me UA
(2008-08-20 00:44:24) Brian: center of europe.
(2008-08-20 00:44:37) Yaroslav: eu will loose ukraine if will be same passive
(2008-08-20 00:45:13) Yaroslav: because in governmant from 450 delegates of parlament eu related part has just 1 vote more than russian part
(2008-08-20 00:45:54) Yaroslav: and russian influence here very powerful, they have very many money
(2008-08-20 00:46:19) Yaroslav: and eu related part has just some ideas and no more, peoples see what ideas not works ..
(2008-08-20 00:46:42) Yaroslav: rusia like this situation
(2008-08-20 00:46:50) Brian: aga..
(2008-08-20 00:47:49) Brian: seems EU and NATO think both Saakashvilli and RU have 'fault'..
(2008-08-20 00:48:03) Brian: take more 'moderate' position..
(2008-08-20 00:48:31) Yaroslav: georgia lost osetia and abhasia this even not discussable, georgia now much worry don't loose himself
(2008-08-20 00:49:37) Yaroslav: funny because russians has UN mandats in osetia like peacemakers
(2008-08-20 00:49:42) Yaroslav: it impossible ...
(2008-08-20 00:49:51) Yaroslav: but for gas and oil they made this
(2008-08-20 00:50:36) Yaroslav: eu can't do nothing against ru interests, because they very dependable of gas and oil
(2008-08-20 00:50:56) Yaroslav: but usa can, and some afraid
(2008-08-20 00:50:57) Brian: in politics there is always some 'motivation'..
(2008-08-20 00:51:49) Yaroslav: most imp[ortant motivation to push russia to be not such hostile as for rest world
(2008-08-20 00:52:11) Brian: who afraid.. UA?
(2008-08-20 00:52:12) Yaroslav: one russian army visited paris and visited berlin, eu have remember it all time
(2008-08-20 00:52:23) Yaroslav: usa some afraid russia
(2008-08-20 00:52:46) Yaroslav: like monkey with grenade
(2008-08-20 00:53:11) Brian: haha....
(2008-08-20 00:53:17) Brian: funny thought
(2008-08-20 00:54:15) Yaroslav: in paris i saw district called "stalingrad", i asked french man - what does this word mean, they even don't know )
(2008-08-20 00:54:28) Brian: yes...
(2008-08-20 00:54:44) Brian: what you thin of possible new US president?
(2008-08-20 00:54:57) Yaroslav: best if obama
(2008-08-20 00:55:14) Yaroslav: respublicans are danger
(2008-08-20 00:55:45) Yaroslav: best if usa will get democrats and ru will more "soft"
(2008-08-20 00:56:02) Yaroslav: world temperature will go down
(2008-08-20 00:56:11) Brian: understand...
(2008-08-20 00:56:35) Brian: ok Yarik.. tanya and masha waiting )
(2008-08-20 00:56:40) Brian: go sleep!
(2008-08-20 00:57:05) Yaroslav: yes, let's go sleep, poka for tonight
(2008-08-20 00:57:13) Brian: Poka Yarik

[steviej]

BC - that was fascinating !!

[steviej]

Well, "Warrior" is here. Who's our South Ossetian troll ?

[Warrior]

Well, "Warrior" is here. Who's our South Ossetian troll ?

your's ? Kokoiti perhaps... right? or you have an other troll?.... 

[Misha]

Don’t be so sure. In general, the more lethal the weaponry, the higher the casualties. Also, to use modern terminology, the modern war will not end quickly either: just look at Iraq. Just the language has changed. In Iraq, we “Won the war but are losing the peace.”
This is our short, modern, quick, clean, high tech war (which is still ongoing by the way).

Well, the fact of the matter is that the United States did win the war with few casualties. But, I agree that keeping the peace is harder. If anything, I would say that the United States did not send enough soldiers and this is due to Rummy's less than stellar theories and performance. There should have been more troops capable of policing the territory after the war was won to try and ensure a semblance of peace. It is harder to be an occupying power as that requires in many ways more resources in the long run as you have to get the population on your side, or at least important allies in that society on your side.

Hmm … you think that war is over? Another “winning the war losing the peace” war?

Well, remember, it was not Israel that started that war. The fact that Israel still exists is a testament to the fact that a small country can survive if it has a capable army with the highest quality equipment.

(cough cough) TOK, you know they were all lying, don’t you? Ever heard of the “Gulf of Tonkin incident” ??  Another nice little piece of the President, the top military, and spy agencies lying that led to 55,000 dead, over 155,000 seriously wounded, 8 years of war (we’re in yr. #6 now in Iraq.)

Well, the Vietnam war is a somewhat different story in that it is harder to fight a war against a guerrilla army. If the enemy had had columns of tanks as the Russians had when invading Georgia, in many ways the United States Army would have had an easier time.

I’m not posting to say “US has done it, so Russia can do it.” I am saying the rhetoric of some of my fellow Americans is quite one-sided, and they don’t seem to be able to make the translation to the Russian view of the situation. If they were Russian citizens, I am convinced we would be hearing exactly the opposite from them. And I firmly believe the US must stay out of these catastrophes. We are addicted to foreign military intervention. I don’t know why.

Well, as the aphorism goes, two wrongs do not make a right. The problem with non-interference is that you may end up creating a greater mess in the long run. It might have been better to take a much more stringent tact with Serbia from the get-go than to wait for the situation to deteriorate.

[wxman]

Interesting post BC. Though I find it interesting that by the 4th line of your discussion, which was supposed to be about what Ukraine though about the Russian and Georgia conflict, you easily diverted attention from what was going on, to twist the story that it had everything to do with the US. Instead of just talking about that conflict, the discussion changed to an anti US rhetoric on your part. That's not reporting, that is spinning. You goaded him into expressing his US views by constantly bringing up what NATO does, what the US did in Panama, etc, thus making it appear that you almost convince him that what Russia did was justified, because in your words the US set precedent. And then it ends up about a discussion about who will be the next US president. You really did not want to listen to what Ukraine  thinks, you really wanted him to know about what you thought about the US and NATO.

[Warrior]

And I want to say  ddition, if Russian troops, the "peacekeepers" should not have bombed other cities of georgia, and had stayed in the conflict zone, where they were, and had punished the both sides, Georgians and Ossetians in the same way, so that the world could see that russians are real peacekeepers in the zone, for Georgians it would be a huge problem to proove that Russia is agressor, and the international opinion would be against Georgia, seeing that Russians had solved the problem and after the solution they would started diong same, continuing support of separatists. And they would stay as peacekeepers perhaps for ever. And everyone would consider that Georgia was an agressor.


P.S    Russians have a very nice phrase, which corresponds to my post:

СИЛА ЕСТЬ,УМА НЕ НАДО

[BC]

Interesting post BC. Though I find it interesting that by the 4th line of your discussion, which was supposed to be about what Ukraine though about the Russian and Georgia conflict, you easily diverted attention from what was going on, to twist the story that it had everything to do with the US. Instead of just talking about that conflict, the discussion changed to an anti US rhetoric on your part. That's not reporting, that is spinning. You goaded him into expressing his US views by constantly bringing up what NATO does, what the US did in Panama, etc, thus making it appear that you almost convince him that what Russia did was justified, because in your words the US set precedent. And then it ends up about a discussion about who will be the next US president. You really did not want to listen to what Ukraine  thinks, you really wanted him to know about what you thought about the US and NATO.

wx,

I can only report it as it was..  We're not talking causual acquaintances but a long  standing relationship, so nothing to hide from each other.

The conversation is quite valid, and I think any attempts to sway the conversation one way or the other were rebuked in kind.. Yarik is someone I have learned to respect over many years.. and believe me he will not withhold a punch.

Like I said.. all FWIW.. consider this convo as quite 'raw'..  it is what it is..

Sure I probably tried to sway the conversation my way.. but as you can see I failed miserabllly.....

[wxman]

Don’t be so sure. In general, the more lethal the weaponry, the higher the casualties. Also, to use modern terminology, the modern war will not end quickly either: just look at Iraq. Just the language has changed. In Iraq, we “Won the war but are losing the peace.”

I would say that we are winning the peace. The amount of casualties have dropped dramatically since General David Petraeus took over command. He basically went in there and changed the whole mindset of the military from war thinking to law enforcement. The war was over in the first week, however, we never switched to a maintaining peace through law enforcement. He gave a perfect analogy of what the US was doing. He said picture the city of Los Angeles with all its thugs, murderers, and other criminals. Then imagine that the police built a huge control center in the middle of the city. During the day the police are out in full force, and then at night they all return to the base. At night all the thugs come out to terrorize the people, by raping them, killing them, torturing them. The people were so afraid that they did not want to even look at a policeman for fear of reprisal at night.   Well, the general said enough, and emptied the base and forced the troops to patrol the streets day and night, just like law enforcement does. Initially there was an increase in the amount of deaths of US forces and civilians, but over time the US forces along with Iraqi forces regained control of the cities, one street at a time. The people are now feeling more secure, and actually help by giving information to where these terrorists are. In fact it has emboldened the Iraqi government and given them enough confidence to ask us to leave by 2010. Now am I certain that if we leave in 2010, that Iraq won't collapse? No, in fact it could turn into a civil war. But I give credit to David Petraeus for seeing what it really was. No longer a war, but bringing back the law of the land. He has been so successful that Obama will look like he is keeping his promise to pull out US troops by 2010 if he is elected. It will have nothing to do with him, but with the great vision of General Petraeus.

[steviej]

... The problem with non-interference is that you may end up creating a greater mess in the long run. It might have been better to take a much more stringent tact with Serbia from the get-go than to wait for the situation to deteriorate.

I understand the theory. Problem is, when I look back, and we study history, in spite of the seeming sense in your statement, it doesn't work out that way. After studying WWI and WWII for 20 years, myself and other contemporary historians (I'm just amateur historian, by the way) have come to the conclusion that the cure was much worse than the disease. I think it would have been very difficult to have seen that at the time, but that is the way it worked out. That's a hard lesson to learn and a hard lesson to carry forward. I don't have a strong position on Russia vs. Georgia per se, but I have a strong opinion that US should stay out of it.

[Misha]

I understand the theory. Problem is, when I look back, and we study history, in spite of the seeming sense in your statement, it doesn't work out that way. After studying WWI and WWII for 20 years, myself and other contemporary historians (I'm just amateur historian, by the way) have come to the conclusion that the cure was much worse than the disease. I think it would have been very difficult to have seen that at the time, but that is the way it worked out. That's a hard lesson to learn and a hard lesson to carry forward. I don't have a strong position on Russia vs. Georgia per se, but I have a strong opinion that US should stay out of it.

Well, if Europe had taken a much stronger line in 1936 when Germany reoccupied the demilitarized zone, WWII may never have occurred. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, but it is often better to deal with problems early than letting them fester.

[Ronnie]

Wxman..  You noticed too that Brian from the very outset of his conversation, tried to interject his simmering antipathy for the U.S. 

And when his friend didn't take the bait, Brian tried again and again to make it all about American culpability.

Did Brian ever say a word critical of Putin?  If he did, I missed it.

[Warrior]

No Ronnie you did not.It was obvious, Brian wanted him to say something bad about USA.

[Ronnie]

When a bully sizes up another and deems him weak, the bully will become more agressive.... not less. 

Chronic failure to understand this simple lesson is what creates wars and need for wars.  Weak-knees and pacificism in the face of a strong aggressor is a disasterous formula.  In the real world, peace can only be achieved through strength.

[tim 360]

I'm sorta lite on politics myself.  One can argue details all you want but it is clear that Russia made a good chess move.  One really has to give Putin some credit in this little chess game with 15K troops in Georgia.  It was a better move than he probably initially invisioned.  Maybe a surprise?

Russia will leave when they feel like it now.  On their own timetable.  There is no one willing to oppose Russia and that is very clear and they are taking their sweet time.  The response of Europe and the USA is pathetic at best and shows how weak and timid they are to oppose the New Bear.  Condie might want to have a tea party and discussions but the Bear doesn't care.  NATO, Bush, JCS, Pentagon does not have a card to play.  He is flexing his muscles and seeing what happens.

Of course this small success will embolden this Bear.  There are other small countries and pretexts.  In the future there is Poland or Ukraine or...

[Ronnie]

Tim,
What has Putin gained?  He will not achieve regime change in Georgia which was his goal.  He has galvanized other "near abroad" nations against him and moved fence sitters to oppose him and favor the west.  In all, Putin will have demonstated that,

There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity.
  - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

[Faux Pas]

Russia will leave when they feel like it now.  On their own timetable.  There is no one willing to oppose Russia and that is very clear and they are taking their sweet time.  The response of Europe and the USA is pathetic at best and shows how weak and timid they are to oppose the New Bear.  Condie might want to have a tea party and discussions but the Bear doesn't care.  NATO, Bush, JCS, Pentagon does not have a card to play.  He is flexing his muscles and seeing what happens.

Of course this small success will embolden this Bear.  There are other small countries and pretexts.  In the future there is Poland or Ukraine or...

As Lee Corso coined "not so fast my friend". NATO and several NATO countries still have a dog in this fight. This action could push them into admitting Georgia and Ukraine. The US, most of Europe and the world will sit idly by chastising Russia once it is concluded that they were the aggressor. But not much else unless there is more aggression. The problem is you can't unring a bell. Putin has solidly proven that Russia is willing to do what it pleases as far as border countries are concerned. The question is: What next?

[UTRO]

What Russia has Really failed to do in this situation is Embrace the Media. Like the West has been doing for years
Russia hasn't learned to Use and Manipulate the Western Media..... This is what the Kremlin Administration needs to do in order to get the rest of the World 'on it's side.'
When we all talk about the Cultural Differences differences that exist between us and our Russian/FSU Women.... this same difference(s) 'bares it's soul' in Diplomatic circles. Don't forget that 95% of Russia's existing Leadership lived through the Soviet period. The 'over 25' Russian psyche is shaped in this way. How could it not be? You Are what you are taught, it shapes us all.
The same Simple things that we argue about, yet endear us to our Women, are the same Simple things which get the Kremlin into trouble with the West. Think about it...... 

[deccie]

I would say that we are winning the peace. The amount of casualties have dropped dramatically since General David Petraeus took over command. He basically went in there and changed the whole mindset of the military from war thinking to law enforcement. The war was over in the first week, however, we never switched to a maintaining peace through law enforcement. He gave a perfect analogy of what the US was doing. He said picture the city of Los Angeles with all its thugs, murderers, and other criminals. Then imagine that the police built a huge control center in the middle of the city. During the day the police are out in full force, and then at night they all return to the base. At night all the thugs come out to terrorize the people, by raping them, killing them, torturing them. The people were so afraid that they did not want to even look at a policeman for fear of reprisal at night.   Well, the general said enough, and emptied the base and forced the troops to patrol the streets day and night, just like law enforcement does. Initially there was an increase in the amount of deaths of US forces and civilians, but over time the US forces along with Iraqi forces regained control of the cities, one street at a time. The people are now feeling more secure, and actually help by giving information to where these terrorists are. In fact it has emboldened the Iraqi government and given them enough confidence to ask us to leave by 2010. Now am I certain that if we leave in 2010, that Iraq won't collapse? No, in fact it could turn into a civil war. But I give credit to David Petraeus for seeing what it really was. No longer a war, but bringing back the law of the land. He has been so successful that Obama will look like he is keeping his promise to pull out US troops by 2010 if he is elected. It will have nothing to do with him, but with the great vision of General Petraeus.

mxman, it's more than that. Under Petraeus the US military finally worked out the most important relationships for Iraqi's that the Americans could exploit. Tribal loyalties. Seriously, In an Arabic society they are hugely important. Previous military men in iraq didn't understand that and how to work with it.

[BC]

Wxman..  You noticed too that Brian from the very outset of his conversation, tried to interject his simmering antipathy for the U.S. 

And when his friend didn't take the bait, Brian tried again and again to make it all about American culpability.

Did Brian ever say a word critical of Putin?  If he did, I missed it.

No Ronnie you did not.It was obvious, Brian wanted him to say something bad about USA.

Of course.. it's all a big evil conspiracy..

 

[wxman]

Of course.. it's all a big evil conspiracy..

 

I knew it!!!  You were also there on the grassy knoll, weren't you?