Russia is at it again!

[Misha]

Still any move from Russia not to decrease further is labeled 'imperialistic', and Russia seems to be often depicted as the bad guy.

If only Russia spent as much money "not to decrease further" on its own population. Here is a case in point, one Russian commentator notes that Russian spent 500 million dollars to pipe in natural gas to supply South Ossetia with natural gas. However, I have visited countless Russian villages with no natural gas and heating was supplied by whatever the inhabitants could chop down in terms of firewood. Why is it that Russia is willing to spend so much in South Ossetia, while doing little for its own population?

[Shadow]

If only Russia spent as much money "not to decrease further" on its own population. Here is a case in point, one Russian commentator notes that Russian spent 500 million dollars to pipe in natural gas to supply South Ossetia with natural gas. However, I have visited countless Russian villages with no natural gas and heating was supplied by whatever the inhabitants could chop down in terms of firewood. Why is it that Russia is willing to spend so much in South Ossetia, while doing little for its own population?

The price the local population pays is much lower as the export price. That would explain the question.

[Misha]

The price the local population pays is much lower as the export price. That would explain the question.

No it does not. Again, reread my post, the local population in question does not get any natural gas. Much of Russia's countryside does not have the infrastructure to benefit from the country's natural gas. Quite often, pipelines will be a few miles away, and the populace relies on firewood to heat its homes. What difference does it make to them if the price paid in Russia is lower than the international market prices when they have no access to natural gas.

[Faux Pas]

and good bully defender of small unrecognized countries and also a good chess player 

I stated early in this thread that the attack was nothing  more than a chess move on Putin's part as was the verbal attack from the White House. Political posturing. Unfortunately, our politicians on both sides of the ocean play games with human lives.

[Shadow]

No it does not. Again, reread my post, the local population in question does not get any natural gas. Much of Russia's countryside does not have the infrastructure to benefit from the country's natural gas. Quite often, pipelines will be a few miles away, and the populace relies on firewood to heat its homes. What difference does it make to them if the price paid in Russia is lower than the international market prices when they have no access to natural gas.

Firewood is free. Natural gas it not. To get natural gas to the vilages costs money. Someone has to pay it.
Do you really suggest that someone pays money to let people pay for what they can get for free ? 

[topofthekey]

Double mistake here. If you want to compare it, then compare it to the situation in Yugoslavia where a number of republics wanted to break away and were helped by the NATO and UN forces.
Russia did have a meeting at the UN before replying. the UN did not make a decision and Russia decided that Georgia would do too much damage if they would wait.
Russia was already present in the area. They did not suddenly enter, just gave support to the troops present that were under attack.
Also they did not change the government of Georgia, in that they have not acted like the USA.
Russia has made it clear from the start that they want to prevent a repetition of this situation, which is why they will retreat their troops but at the same time make clear that a next attack will cause serious problems in Tbilisi.

They did suddenly invade another country and they went way past South Ossetia and way into Georgia. Compare how long the USA (NATO) tried diplomacy in any situation compared to this. You can't compare Russia's actions to anything the USA or NATO has done. Russia has a history of invading countries and keeping them.

Regardless of all the comparisons and justifications anyone wants to make- Russia jumped a border big time and they did it quickly with little to no diplomacy. Again at best it is a gross over reaction and at worst it was a clear message to try and keep FSU countries in line.

If anyone is seriously thinking Russia just wants to liberate a country they are nuts. I'm sure they would absorb them however.

[Shadow]

They did suddenly invade another country and they went way past South Ossetia and way into Georgia. Compare how long the USA (NATO) tried diplomacy in any situation compared to this. You can't compare Russia's actions to anything the USA or NATO has done. Russia has a history of invading countries and keeping them.

Regardless of all the comparisons and justifications anyone wants to make- Russia jumped a border big time and they did it quickly with little to no diplomacy. Again at best it is a gross over reaction and at worst it was a clear message to try and keep FSU countries in line.

If anyone is seriously thinking Russia just wants to liberate a country they are nuts. I'm sure they would absorb them however.

Russia did not retaliate without first contacting the UN and the NATO. If you wish to blame them for reacting quickly to a threat to citizens, please do so. It is the long debates and discussions that have caused genocides and many civilian casualties in the past.
Over-discussing is a weakness that Russia does not possess.
I would not call the Russian reaction overreaction. Strong yes, sending a clear message about not crossing their lines, sure.
If Russian troops had invaded the Georgian capital it would have been overreacting.
From the start Russia has stated its goals for the operation.
1. Stop the attacks on South Ossetia in a way that would avoid repetition of the conflict.
2. Forcing political negotiations on the future of the breakaway regions to solve the issues.
3. Sending a clear message that when their troops are attacked, Russia will use its right to react by force.

All objectives have been reached within days.

[topofthekey]

Russia did not retaliate without first contacting the UN and the NATO.
All objectives have been reached within days.

Before we went into Iraq I watched Colin Powell on TV for days presenting his case. This went on for months. They brought out evidence of weapons of mass destruction and that a nuclear program might be in the works. Technically what does contacting mean? Hey I'm going to bomb your friend's house. Just letting you know.

Come on. I will agree with you that the Russians certainly reached their objectives.

This wasn't Russia sending a message not to cross their lines, because the Georgians didn't cross Russian lines. Georgia did not invade any internationally recognized territory that belongs to Russia. If Russia's so called relaliation was just in South Ossetia then I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

They went way into Georgia. You just can't do that. Now Russia is going to watch Georgia join NATO and Poland get that missile defense system up and they are just going to have to take it.

If Russia was fighting to make South Ossetia a free country or just went in South Ossetia to defend them I wouldn't be arguing with you. The Russians could have be working the South Ossetia to create a reason to invade. I don't have the answer to that. All anyone logical can see is that Russia invaded a sovereign country

[BC]

topofthekey,

Remember the US invasion of Panama?

The official United States justification for the invasion was articulated by President George H. W. Bush on the morning of December 20, a few hours after the start of the operation. Bush listed four reasons for the invasion:[5]

    * Safeguarding the lives of U.S. citizens in Panama. In his statement, Bush claimed that Noriega had declared that a state of war existed between the United States and Panama and that he also threatened the lives of the approximately 35,000 US citizens living there. There had been numerous clashes between U.S. and Panamanian forces; one US Marine had been killed a few days earlier and several incidents of harassment of US citizens had taken place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Panama

Was Panama not a sovereign nation?

[Shadow]

Before we went into Iraq I watched Colin Powell on TV for days presenting his case. This went on for months. They brought out evidence of weapons of mass destruction and that a nuclear program might be in the works. Technically what does contacting mean? Hey I'm going to bomb your friend's house. Just letting you know.

Come on. I will agree with you that the Russians certainly reached their objectives.

This wasn't Russia sending a message not to cross their lines, because the Georgians didn't cross Russian lines. Georgia did not invade any internationally recognized territory that belongs to Russia. If Russia's so called relaliation was just in South Ossetia then I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

They went way into Georgia. You just can't do that. Now Russia is going to watch Georgia join NATO and Poland get that missile defense system up and they are just going to have to take it.

If Russia was fighting to make South Ossetia a free country or just went in South Ossetia to defend them I wouldn't be arguing with you. The Russians could have be working the South Ossetia to create a reason to invade. I don't have the answer to that. All anyone logical can see is that Russia invaded a sovereign country

The Georgians attacked Russian peace troops in South Ossetia.  The Russians have been protecting the area since 1993.

The objective was to stop any future repetition of the Georgian agression to South Ossetia and Abkhasia. You can not do that without creating at least a border zone. This is something that has even been accepted in the peace treaty that has been made with input from the US and EU. Russia stopped once a border zone was created in Georgia, and has agreed to withdraw to its peace keeping positions, providing Georgia will also withdraw its troops in to their barracks.

While the US was putting on their theater show regarding the WMD's that never showed up, the Iraqi people were not at war or under attack. If you wish to make comparisons, make them with attacks on current peace troops, or even better with what happened in the 1990's during the break-up of Yugoslavia.

[Misha]

The Georgians attacked Russian peace troops in South Ossetia.  The Russians have been protecting the area since 1993.

And, what exactly were the Russian "peace keepers" doing to stop their allies (the South Ossetians) from shelling or otherwise attacking Georgian villages months and years before the invasion?

[Shadow]

And, what exactly were the Russian "peace keepers" doing to stop their allies (the South Ossetians) from shelling or otherwise attacking Georgian villages months and years before the invasion?

The same as the Georgians. 

[Misha]

The same as the Georgians. 

I don't deny that the Georgians tried to use military force. However, I do not think the Russian peace keepers were the blameless victims.

[BC]

Why do these 'incidents' sound so familiar.. The US has a long history of picking partners to work with in foreign policy that end up causing more trouble than they were worth..

From the same wiki page..

relations with Noriega spanned decades from 1959 to the early 1980s, when Noriega served as a U.S. intelligence asset and was on the Central Intelligence Agency's payroll. Noriega's relations with George H. W. Bush may have begun in the 1970s, when Bush was head of the CIA.[1] Noriega had worked to advance U.S. interests in Central America, notably in sabotaging the communist Sandinistas in Nicaragua and the revolutionaries in El Salvador, receiving upwards of $100,000 for his efforts.[2] ; and as he worked with the Drug Enforcement Administration to restrict illegal drug shipments, he was known to work with the drug dealers themselves simultaneously.[1]

The Washington Post disclosed several rulings of the Office of Legal Counsel, issued shortly before the invasion, in regards to the U.S. armed forces being charged with making an arrest abroad. One ruling Interpreted the Executive Order against Assassination of Foreign Leaders, which prohibits the intentional killing of foreign leaders as suggesting that accidental killings would be acceptable foreign policy. Another ruling concludes that the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878, which prohibits the armed forces from making arrests without Congressional authorization, is effective only within the boundaries of the US, such that the military could be used as a police force abroad — for example, in Panama, to enforce a federal court warrant against Noriega.[28]

Every law can be bent as needed, but sets a precident.. Next up Russia decides to charge Saakashvili and then just go and get him, maybe just by 'accident' he is killed.

Anyone object?  Anyone see a double standard?

[topofthekey]

And, what exactly were the Russian "peace keepers" doing to stop their allies (the South Ossetians) from shelling or otherwise attacking Georgian villages months and years before the invasion?

I have to agree, guys standing around with guns and calling them peace keepers is nuts. sounds more like soliders to me. I'm aware of the other conflicts that are being brought up here and I just have to continue to point out the difference between Western Countries and Russia. There are some double standards out there in this world. Why can the USA have nukes and we are doing everything to prevent Iran from having them? Look at the history of what the former soviet union has done and that is were I base my opinion.

The vast majority of the west and especially the United States sides with Georgia. I obviously don't know who I'm talking with on these boards and since this is RWD it is likely I'm talking with those that are more likely to defend Russia which is fine.

Regardless one country crossed a border recognized by the United States of America and one country didn't. I think as the news continues to unfold and Russia continues to screw with these FSU countries the United States and Western Europe will not only develop stronger relationships with these FSU countries, but I also believe we will win the hearts of the residents as well.

[Ronnie]

As I posted earlier in the thread, one Russian journalist, Oleg Panfilov reported that the Ossetian rebels were shelling Georgian peacekeeper positions for 10 days prior August 7th, all with the Russian Peacekeepers standing by doing nothing to stop it.  It would seem to any reasonable person that the provocation of Georgia was orchestrated by Russia using the Ossetians as chum.

I will answer the question posed by Shadow:

"What exactly do you hate in Russia ?"

(Besides, the rampant corruption?)

What i hate about Russia, is exactly the same thing the Russians hated when they toppled the statue of Feliks Dzherzhinski, founder of Russia's secret police.  The fact is that Russia has been overthrown by the Secret Police aka KGB aka FSB.  It is they who are taking Russia back into the dark days of Russia's history.  As much as I love the Russian people, maybe because I love the Russian people, I cannot bear to see this catastrophe unfolding within Russia.

Oh, then there's OMON, Russia's paramilitary police force..
Don't watch this video if you don't have a strong stomach.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N8zPBLCB-4&feature=related[/youtube]

I suggest it is those who defend Putin who really hate the Russian people.

[topofthekey]

As I posted earlier in the thread, one Russian journalist, Oleg Panfilov reported that the Ossetian rebels were shelling Georgian peacekeeper positions for 10 days prior August 7th, all with the Russian Peacekeepers standing by doing nothing to stop it.  It would seem to any reasonable person that the provocation of Georgia was orchestrated by Russia using the Ossetians as chum.

I'm glad I'm not the only one here that thinks this way. Everyone wants to bring up anything the USA has ever been involved with. Should we do the same with Russia. Lets start at then end of WWII and work our way up. I know enough history to know I want this commie loving want to go back to the old ways government to stay in its own country.

[wxman]

As I posted earlier in the thread, one Russian journalist, Oleg Panfilov reported that the Ossetian rebels were shelling Georgian peacekeeper positions for 10 days prior August 7th, all with the Russian Peacekeepers standing by doing nothing to stop it.  It would seem to any reasonable person that the provocation of Georgia was orchestrated by Russia using the Ossetians as chum.

I will answer the question posed by Shadow:

"What exactly do you hate in Russia ?"

(Besides, the rampant corruption?)

What i hate about Russia, is exactly the same thing the Russians hated when they toppled the statue of Feliks Dzherzhinski, founder of Russia's secret police.  The fact is that Russia has been overthrown by the Secret Police aka KGB aka FSB.  It is they who are taking Russia back into the dark days of Russia's history.  As much as I love the Russian people, maybe because I love the Russian people, I cannot bear to see this catastrophe unfolding within Russia.

Oh, then there's OMON, Russia's paramilitary police force..
Don't watch this video if you don't have a strong stomach.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N8zPBLCB-4&feature=related[/youtube]

Can only hope a Georgian sniper finds that guy. If that's the level of Russian profressionalism in the their military, then we have nothing to fear, as only cowards act like that.  Plus, their dumb enough to video their crimes. But of course in Russia, no charges will ever be made against these thugs. The thug probably has a very low IQ or is inbred just by the way he reacts.

[Warrior]

well, alright some of our russian friends have forgotten some important points into georgian history and territorial integrity. Let's start form the beginings, I want that foreigners understand this actually, because our northern friends want to change some essential surroundings about this conflict. Here you will get that russians do not care about ossetians and abkhazians, their goal is to make Georgia under their control. Ok let's start.

In 1783 there was a declaration between the king of Georgia Erekle II and Russian Queen Ekaterina, that russian side would defend Georgia from the external enemies outside the country. We did have enemies, they were Persia and Turkey, but russian kingdom did not help us, even though when the Georgians were fighting against Turkeys the russian General Totleben went away from the Aspindza buttlefield with his army (!) instead of helping. In 1801 the Russian kingdom Occupied Georgia, and their main goal from that moment became to extinct georgian nation by the time. They made other Caucasian people, khabardo-balkharians, Cherkezs, Adigheeans, Ossetians, to move to Georgia, and give them houses in Abkhazia and Southern Ossetia (after some sentences I won't call this territory Ossetia, you'll understand why), and the real Abkhazs who were real Georgians, made to move to Turkey. But these people with georgians used to live without any problems, many of them in nowadays also says that they do not havy any problems with georgians. After the Bolshevik Revolution the leader of the USSR became Stalin, I'm ahsamed to say that he was Georgian, and with other georgians like Orjonikidze, Beria he built a big Empire, They made this for Russians(!!!), without these people russians could do nothing, these people with other european politicians beat Nazi Germany. These people were traitors for there country. They gave to these regions Autonomies, in case of something, if GEorgia would be independent they would started buttle for freedom. These people who were originally from other regions (!!!) you see what a sly government was it? They called South Ossetia to the land which was originally called Samachablo, the Georgian land, and there is Ossetia republic which is now in RF and they called it North Ossetia, a man will think there is North and South Ossetia, wow so this is a one country like Western Germany and Eastern Germany, and one day they must unite, the fundamental Georgian land which was called Samachablo They renamed!!! They focused that one day these "two" ossetia would unite. That's why I'll mention Samachablo. And when the Georgia became independent, after several months these to region, separatists started to do their job, they were co operating with russian KGB and finnaly they made russian dream come true. The point is that Russian DOES NOT CARE ABOUT THESE PEOPLE, THEY JUST NEED TO MANIPULATE AGAINST GEORGIANS, LIKE WILL YOU BEACAME A MEMBER OF NATO, YOU WILL LOSE YOU TERRITORY. Ossetians and Russians provocated Georgians, This Country cannot stand that Georgia will never be under control of Russia, they just use these two peoples to tease us, not more. Every night Ossetian used to shut the georgian positions. We tried to keep cease-fire before this conflict, but everything has it's end. The whole world sees that russia is a side and not a peacekeeper, russia is aggresor.

The same thing with Ukraine, Khrushov, the former USSR leader gave this land to Ukraine, just as a gift, this is not secret, I'm talking about Khyrym, and now they want to take it away.

Well this was what I wanted to tell you, of course russians will deny almost everything but do not care, they used to tell, are telling aand will tell LIES till someone will stop them, I hope it will happen soon.

Best wishes From GEORGIA, TBILISI

[Ronnie]

Can only hope a Georgian sniper finds that guy. If that's the level of Russian profressionalism in the their military, then we have nothing to fear, as only cowards act like that.  Plus, their dumb enough to video their crimes. But of course in Russia, no charges will ever be made against these thugs. The thug probably has a very low IQ or is inbred just by the way he reacts.

Actually Wxman, he attached to Moscow police so a Georgian sniper would not be an answer.  Let's hope he's sitting in a Moscow prison now.

[steviej]

Test

Stevie,
You talk about bloodbaths and 100s of years of them in Europe.  Doesn't the use of modern, high tech weapons change the battlefield somewhat?

Nowadays it's all about cutting off the enemy's command and control very quickly, eliminating his ability to see or know what he's doing and forcing surrender of isolated troops.  Far more prisoner taking than actual killing.  Warfare has changed.

Don’t be so sure. In general, the more lethal the weaponry, the higher the casualties. Also, to use modern terminology, the modern war will not end quickly either: just look at Iraq. Just the language has changed. In Iraq, we “Won the war but are losing the peace.” So, far in Iraq we have:

Mission Accomplished:      2003   (5 yrs ago)
Year of highest US casualties      2007
Total US casualties:         35,000+  [Killed:  4,000+ ]
Total Current Cost         $600 - $800 Billion  (all borrowed from China, SA]
Project Long Term Cost:      $3 Trillion and more (estimates vary widely, all borrowed)

This is our short, modern, quick, clean, high tech war (which is still ongoing by the way).

I agree with Ronnie. This is not necessarily new either. The classic textbook case of a small country besieged by massive armies surrounding it and coming out victorious with the help of modern, high tech weapons is Israel during the Six-Day War of 1967.

Hmm … you think that war is over? Another “winning the war losing the peace” war?

That's a question with too many missing variables... It's like asking someone "would you ever kill someone ?" .. the answer is it depends on the circumstances.. Sure you will find some that say "never" but find they often change their answer when you throw in ever increasingly horrible scenarios.

Not many sane people want war.. It is best if you can prevent it I would think.. You should also not take too superior an attitude, as we have recently fought a war for revenge, and a war that was based on one thing, but changed to another after the fact..

So, how “horrible” does it have to be? Let’s suppose that Poland, Russia, Czeck, Belarus, Ukraine, Germany, … are doing horrible things to each other in a broader regional conflict. It’s going back and forth, cities are being bombed, “ethnic cleansing” hatreds are surfacing, etc. I’ll give you all that. You are saying that, yet again, you would support the US getting involved militarily, getting thousands of our young men and women killed, bankrupting the future of our government for the next generation, because you think that “we” a.k.a. the citizens of USA, should stop them from hating each other (which is at the root of it), fighting and killing each other ….. again. Right? I simply disagree. They will all want to drag us into for sure. I vote against. No young American man or woman should be killed yet again on another European field of battle. We’re done.

By the way, I’m not sure where “superior attitude” had anything to do with it.

If only Russia spent as much money "not to decrease further" on its own population. Here is a case in point, one Russian commentator notes that Russian spent 500 million dollars to pipe in natural gas to supply South Ossetia with natural gas. However, I have visited countless Russian villages with no natural gas and heating was supplied by whatever the inhabitants could chop down in terms of firewood. Why is it that Russia is willing to spend so much in South Ossetia, while doing little for its own population?

Hey Misha, welcome to US foreign policy ! I couldn’t help notice, as an ironic symptom, that the US is giving “aid” to Georgia. We don’t have any money. We’re borrowing money from Saudi Arabia, China, and others to give “aid.” Our children have a staggering debt already we have laid on them in arrears to foreign powers. But clearly it makes our leaders personally feel powerful to do it. We’re mortgaging our childrens future to play “global bully.”

Before we went into Iraq I watched Colin Powell on TV for days presenting his case. This went on for months. They brought out evidence of weapons of mass destruction and that a nuclear program might be in the works.

(cough cough) TOK, you know they were all lying, don’t you? Ever heard of the “Gulf of Tonkin incident” ??  Another nice little piece of the President, the top military, and spy agencies lying that led to 55,000 dead, over 155,000 seriously wounded, 8 years of war (we’re in yr. #6 now in Iraq.) We didn’t find out for 35 yrs. That the whole incident was staged. And as you said, I remember President Johnson, with such a grave, serious and compassionate face on television explaining to the American people, “Today, an American destroyer was attacked in international waters by the North Vietnamese …. We will defend America’s right etc etcc.   … therefore I am asking congress for a declaration of war, war powers and funding to counteract t… .. ..”  that’s how the Vietnam war started. And by the way, that one ended with “Peace with Honor” in case you were wondering.

I’m not posting to say “US has done it, so Russia can do it.” I am saying the rhetoric of some of my fellow Americans is quite one-sided, and they don’t seem to be able to make the translation to the Russian view of the situation. If they were Russian citizens, I am convinced we would be hearing exactly the opposite from them. And I firmly believe the US must stay out of these catastrophes. We are addicted to foreign military intervention. I don’t know why.

I think BC and Shadow are being objective.

One  thing this thread proves is that Ronnie is married to a Ukrainian woman !! …. LOL

[Ronnie]

Thank you Warrior.  Your point of view is historically accurate to be sure. 

Rest assured that few outside Russia differ with your analysis of the provocation and goals of the KGB-lead Kremlin versus Georgia and Ukraine. 

I say "few" only because the Kremlin has her "useful idiots" around the globe who try to justify the Kremlin's behavior by making false comparisons to other events.  There are also Russians who, in their false sense of pride, strain credulity in an effort to justify Putin. 

Nothing justifies the Kremlin's transparent efforts to win control of the Georgian and Ukrainian people by force of arms.

[Ronnie]

.

One  thing this thread proves is that Ronnie is married to a Ukrainian woman !! …. LOL

What this thread proves is that I care more the women and children of Russia than Stevie does.

[steviej]

What this thread proves is that I care more the women and children of Russia than Stevie does.

What a pile of gratuitous **** nonsense that statement is.

[Warrior]

1939- Finland

1956- Hungary

1968- Czekhoslovakia

1991- Lithuania

2008- Georgia

THE NEXT WILL BE YOU


Let's see some historical parallels, in 1918 Germany was defeated, like USSR was defeated in 1990 in Cold War against The West,  it Collapsed

after several years, Adolf Hitler became a Chanselor and Germany started to think about the glory. to invide other territories. After the collapsing Russia started to do the same, in Russia there too many NAZI ORGANIZATIONS, Ukranians will agree with me. Germany occupied the Sudet,whic was the part of Czekhia, the same size is Samachablo (S. Ossetia), then Germany wanted to get much more territories, including poland and so on. And finally both of them are the THIRD REICH, Russian Empire, Soviet Union and Russian Federation. Believe to us, to Georgians, Ukrainians, Baltics, Polishs, we know what RUSSIAN AGRESSION IS !!!!