Russia is at it again!

[Ronnie]

Regardless of what side of the issue you are on, I strongly encourage you to read David Satter's testimony on Russia before the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Foreign Affairs.  It was given more than a year ago and is very prophetic...

http://www.hudson.org/files/publications/SatterHouseTestimony2007.pdf

[Shadow]

Regardless of what side of the issue you are on, I strongly encourage you to read David Satter's testimony on Russia before the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Foreign Affairs.  It was given more than a year ago and is very prophetic...

http://www.hudson.org/files/publications/SatterHouseTestimony2007.pdf

the anti-Russian propaganda has never stopped with the Cold War.

[wxman]

Neither has the anti American propaganda!

[Shadow]

Well, Mr Shadow if I wanted to show my age I would right it into my profile actually, it's not essential.

Quite many.

Yes I agree with you, it's not correct to attack and kill the citizens indeed, despite of ethnicity. That's why the whole world critices Kremlin, except HEZBOLAH, VENEZUELA AND CUBA, terrorist and dictators.

As I see you've readen my first topic fully, there you'll get the answer to your question

Firstly it would be horrible to be Russia, but you are so interested I'll tell you.
Well, if I was Russia, I would be the real, honor peacekeeper, so that there should not be any jealouses in my job and activity. I would not give help to hte separatists by weapon, moral support and I would not encouraged them against Georgians. But it is hard to do these things in condition when you are Russia, because Russia does not care about Ossetians, Abkhazians and Georgians. This two breakaway regions are only enticements to tease Georgians. Moreover they agreed Ossetians to involve Georgia in this conflict, just provocated Georgia whith help from the "peacekeepers". How could russians be peacekeepers when they are the side in war? So your question is illogical, they have started the conflict, they were shooting Georgians exactly, and it's obvious that some of them would get wounded, or killed. 

Nice diversion. But I asked you if you find it OK for Georgia to kill their own citizens. Of course if you do not consider the Ossetians as Georgian citizens, you give rights to Russia to protect them. If you do, then your own president ordered an attack on fellow citizens.
Any peace keeping force is siding. Thy usually protect the weakest party against attacks from a stronger one.
That is why Georgia wants to join NATO, to have protection from Russia.
However to get this they had to solve the problems in Ossetia and Abkhazia. The president chose the wrong solution, and Georgia paid the price. If those who declare war would have to be in the front line when shots are fired, there would be much less wars.

[Ronnie]

the anti-Russian propaganda has never stopped with the Cold War.

Shadow you call an unpublicized testimony to a congressional committee by a esteemed scholar, mere propaganda.  Do you even understand what you are saying? 

Then you protest that Georgia may have killed some Ossetians..what was the final (current) number - 133?  Yet, you say nothing of the tens of thousands of Chechens who were Russian citizens killed for the same reason. 

Speaking of numbers, 133 isn't even half the number of Russians who were killed in their own beds by Putin in 10 days in September of 1999 in order to stir up a pretense for starting a new war with the Chechens to grease his way to the presidency.

Read "Blowing Up Russia" by former FSB agent Alexander Litvinenko.  Litvinenko, who became a British citizen as you recall was poisoned by one of Putin's hitmen on British soil  The book is detailed and documented.

You might also read "The Age of Assassins: The Rise and Fall of Vladimir Putin: How Scary are Russia's New Leaders?" by Yuri Felshtinsky and Vladimir Pribylovsky.

Russia has become the quintessential fascist state where corporations and crime bosses are the government.  As Satter wrote, these men care only about themselves, their own wealth and power and care nothing for the Russian people.  Anyone who defends the status quo in Moscow today is unwittingly contributing to the greatest catastrophe to ever befall the Russia. 

Read the books I suggested Shadow - books that Putin has not permitted to be circulated inside Russia and whose authors have been ordered assassinated - then come back here and defend Putin if your good sense will permit.

[OlgaH]

Read "Blowing Up Russia" by former FSB agent Alexander Litvinenko.  Litvinenko, who became a British citizen as you recall was poisoned by one of Putin's hitmen on British soil  The book is detailed and documented.

Litvinenko should not have been engaged in radioactive materials smuggling... he would be alive 

Oh, books for selling they are always detailed, documented and full of horrors  .

[diverboy70]

Ronnie, The GRU (is it still the name?) did not do anything (with Litvinenko) that the CIA is not doing, they just did it very badly!

About Chechenia, yes we can include it here, a real bad mistake as also Afghanistan was! And who is having problems there today?

What I am trying to say is that both the US and Russia/FSU is doing/did stupid things just to get a little bit more of that "power cake!

[OlgaH]

BTW The President of Chechnya Ramzan Kadyrov offered the help (10 thousand of his solders) to Russia   in South Ossetia.

[Misha]

BTW The President of Chechnya Ramzan Kadyrov offered the help (10 thousand of his solders) to Russia   in South Ossetia.

I guess he wants his share of the looting.

[diverboy70]

Or maybe wise by the former guy on his post? Not a good career move to be on a bad foot with Medvedev/Putin

[Shadow]

Shadow you call an unpublicized testimony to a congressional committee by a esteemed scholar, mere propaganda.  Do you even understand what you are saying? 

Then you protest that Georgia may have killed some Ossetians..what was the final (current) number - 133?  Yet, you say nothing of the tens of thousands of Chechens who were Russian citizens killed for the same reason. 

Speaking of numbers, 133 isn't even half the number of Russians who were killed in their own beds by Putin in 10 days in September of 1999 in order to stir up a pretense for starting a new war with the Chechens to grease his way to the presidency.

Ronnie after reading the former political advisor of Clinton I have no need to dissect further statement by people that should be well informed but seem to be ignorant about the real things that are going on. It is extremely easy to take a couple of headlines and produce a spy story. Probably Putin was the guy who learned the 9/11 pilots to fly.

Russia is said to investigate 133 cases. That does not mean there are only 133 deaths but that they will investigate if criminal charges can be mad in 133 cases. A minor difference from your attack on numbers. Even your prior source of 'less than advertised' killings counted 237 bodies. I presume that you think the HRW mysteriously revived 104 dead bodies ?

[Ronnie]

Olga, You make jokes about Litvinenko..tell them to Scotland Yard. 

Better yet, look at yourself in the mirror and ask if you are helping your friends and family still living in Russia when you defend Putin.

Get this clear in your mind - are you defending Russia and Russians(that would be understandable and completely expected)..or are you are defending the murderous actions of thugs who would not think twice about planting a hexagen bomb in your mother's building if it will further Putin's quest for wealth and power.   

If you are looking for the greatest enemies of the Russian people you will not find them looking abroad.  The Russian people's greatest enemy has always been and remains the same one that Lenin created on December 20, 1917  - a day which Putin and his FSB cohorts celebrate every year.

While too many Russians look for enemies abroad, the enemy within is enriching themselves while destroying Russia.  When their work is finished, who will be to blame?

[Shadow]

If you are looking for the greatest enemies of the Russian people you will not find them looking abroad.  The Russian people's greatest enemy has always been and remains the same one that Lenin created on December 20, 1917  - a day which Putin and his FSB cohorts celebrate every year.

While too many Russians look for enemies abroad, the enemy within is enriching themselves while destroying Russia.  When their work is finished, who will be to blame?

Ronnie I hope that one day you will understand the working of the FSB. Then your ideas about who are friends and who are enemies might change.
What you should understand is that Russia is a hard country to control. And with that I mean on the inside.
And unlike some other countries, Russia does not rely on nationalism or empty threats from bad guys they created themselves to unite their people. In basics, Russia is peaceful and has no intention or need to attack others.
Many people mistake shouting for courage, and silence for weakness.
Then when limits are crossed, the shouting becomes the hurt party and shouting becomes crying about that bad guy who never even warned.

[Ronnie]

BTW The President of Chechnya Ramzan Kadyrov offered the help (10 thousand of his solders) to Russia   in South Ossetia.

This is your boy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramzan_Kadyrov

[Ronnie]

Russia does not rely on nationalism or empty threats from bad guys they created themselves to unite their people. In basics, Russia is peaceful and has no intention or need to attack others.

Shadow...you're killing me here.  If you can call black white and white black, what hope is there for truth?

[BC]

News flash... News flash...

Anyone notice that unidentified bodies in morgues all over Russia have been claimed and are being shipped down to SO?

-------------------------

Really.. it's much easier to discuss what is reasonably known and leave the rest for history to unwind sometime in the future..

Dan often mentions taking things at face value, and I'm learning more and more
that it works quite well.

RU now has pulled back, left a few soldiers bunkered in where they could justify it within a broad interpretation of the cease fire and prior agreements.  Quite a few will stay in SO until an international resolution can be worked on.

The Georgians, US and a couple other countries are pi$$ed.

Key word: (read my lips) "cease fire"

Is there any shooting still going on?  If not it worked just fine.

What's next?

[groovlstk]

Read "Blowing Up Russia" by former FSB agent Alexander Litvinenko.  Litvinenko, who became a British citizen as you recall was poisoned by one of Putin's hitmen on British soil  The book is detailed and documented.

No A-tier publisher would touch this book, most likely because nothing could be sustantiated. I'm no fan of Putin but he has enemies (such as exiled oligarchs) who are monsters in themselves.

In reading my copy of Johnson's Russia List today, a note from David Johnson pretty much sums things up in this debate:

In the current conflict in Georgia I am pulled in many directions. I will only offer one observation. The articulate partisans on this matter are capable of presenting a compelling and persuasive case. And the righteousness of that case is held with complete sincerity. I know that is hard for some to believe but it is absolutely true. And if one has made up one's mind about who is right everything can be interpreted to fit with one's preconception. The rush to judgement and to sustain the validity of one's judgement is overwhelming. That is sadly exactly where we are today. And for sometime to come.

[Ronnie]

No A-tier publisher would touch this book, most likely because nothing could be sustantiated. I'm no fan of Putin but he has enemies (such as exiled oligarchs) who are monsters in themselves.

It's understandable that sales of books written by Russians about Russia that are banned in Russia will not rise to the minimum sales large publishers expect. 

If you read the book, you will see that substantiation is not an issue.

One example:  When the bomb was noticed in the Ryazan apartment building by residents and reported to the police.  Putin praised the residents for being vigilant heroes in thrwarting yet another bombing of innocent people by the Chechen terrorists.  He did so on TV.  Later, when eye witnesses  identified two men and a woman who were seen leaving the building and it was learned upon their arrest that they were FSB agents...agents unknown to the Ryazan FSB office. 

Only after the agents were arrested did the FSB director in Moscow announce that the planting of the bomb was only a training exercise and the timer (identical to the one used in the Moscow bombings) was a mock up and that the yellow explosive material (hexagen) was actually sugar.


Questions
If the FSB and Putin knew what happened in Ryazan was an "exercise," why did they not announce that right away? 

Why did Putin put the blame on terrorists knowing it was an "exercise"? 

Why did the "exercise" story only come forth after the FSB agents were arrested? 

If an "exercise" why was the local Ryazan FSB office totally unaware of it? 

Why did the Ryazan FSB office and the Ryazan Police both confirm and announce to the public that the substance was hexagen and the detonator was live and set to go off at 5:30 AM?

Why did the Duma form a committee to investigate the bombings? 

Why were two members of that committee assassinated?

Why did the FSB take over the investigation..?  (What are the FSB investigating if they know it was their own exercise and not a crime at all?)

And, the most curious question of all.  Why did the almost nightly bombings suddenly cease after the Ryazan arrests?

[BC]

Aristotle Onassis ordered Robert Kennedy's assassination, according to play

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/2601995/Aristotle-Onassis-ordered-Robert-Kennedys-assassination-according-to-play.html

[BC]

It's understandable that sales of books written by Russians about Russia that are banned in Russia will not rise to the minimum sales large publishers expect. 

If Russians want these books they can surely get them.

[wxman]

The most feared man in the US while he was alive was J Edgar Hoover, head of the FBI. He was so feared that even the Presidents would not remove him from his post. He basically ran the domestic policy of the US. Hoover and the FBI had carte blanche to spy and detain anyone in the US. When he died, Nixon stripped the FBI of most of it's power to keep them getting that strong ever again. Along comes George Jr, who creates Homeland security, who again now has carte blanche to spy and detain US citizens without permission.

For years, the most feared organization in Russia was the KGB, who had carte blanche to spy and detain anyone in the USSR. Along come Yeltsin who knew the power of the KGB. He quickly dismantles this organization. Then comes Mr Putin, who creates the FSB who is given carte blanche to spy and detain anyone in Russia.

Notice the similarities? Quite frightening, actually.

[OlgaH]

This is your boy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramzan_Kadyrov

From Wikipedia in Russian http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%9A%D0%B0%D0%B4%D1%8B%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2

In May 2007 Ramzan Kadyrov headed anti terroristic committee of the Republic. 

В мае 2007 года Рамзан Кадыров возглавил антитеррористическую комиссию республики. Он подписал указ о мерах противодействия терроризму на территории Чеченской республики.

По мнению Кадырова, мировые державы должны стремиться к более тесной координации действий по борьбе с терроризмом. В 2007 году он выразил надежду, что британские власти выдадут российскому правосудию Бориса Березовского, которого Кадыров обвиняет в финансировании террористов

He rewarded with Golden Star for defending human rights   

He beloved by people of the Republic 

Ronnie, enjoy your propaganda 

[OlgaH]

Olga, You make jokes about Litvinenko..tell them to Scotland Yard. 

Ah Scotland Yard...  I guess that the investigation was leaded by the Inspector Lestrade  therefore it has hampered the progress of the investigation and as usually was drawing amiss 

[Warrior]

Nice diversion. But I asked you if you find it OK for Georgia to kill their own citizens. Of course if you do not consider the Ossetians as Georgian citizens, you give rights to Russia to protect them. If you do, then your own president ordered an attack on fellow citizens.
Any peace keeping force is siding. Thy usually protect the weakest party against attacks from a stronger one.
That is why Georgia wants to join NATO, to have protection from Russia.
However to get this they had to solve the problems in Ossetia and Abkhazia. The president chose the wrong solution, and Georgia paid the price. If those who declare war would have to be in the front line when shots are fired, there would be much less wars.

You call this divertion? I've fully answered to your questions and that's not my problem if you could not understand it. But let me tell you that you do not have imagination about this conflict, you payed attention to this since august 8, I think that you have no idea what was going on before this date, if you had you would not speak like this, or there is another thing, maybe you've got many russians around you and thay have told you the wrong information.

In South Ossetia(I will call it it's original name Samachablo and I will be grateful if you, the members will do the same) the only cities Tskhinvali and Java and some other villages were controled by separatists, the other villages around Tskhinvali was controled by us, and there lived citizens of
Georgia, I say this before this conflict, now almost all of them have become refugees. In that time Shadow, on which you do not have any idea Russian Federation gave her passports to the Ossetians so they became the citizens of russia. But this happened ILLEGALY, pay your attention please. the first step which Russia made against us! So we've got what... in this region live the cit. of Georgia and Ossetians who "became" the cit. of Russia. Yes I agree with you, it's not correct to attack and kill the citizens indeed, despite of ethnicity  Of course you recognize this phrase from the previous post. Our Army have not attacked the civilians, moreover Our president, himself made an announcement about the cease-fire, to stop the attack for THREE HOURS to give a time to the civilians no matter ethnicity and our army made a corridor for them to live their houses. some of them went to Russia boarder, some of them went to us. In the 8 th of August, from three o'clock to six. He announced morratorium or whatever it's called. This is a very big time for people to live their houses, and for the soulders of the enemy(Russians) to get ready their technics and the whole army right? In this three hours our army could blow up the Rocky tunnel from which the russian army came into Georgia, and the Russian army could not come from that side. you understand how important was to blow up that tunnel, but Saakashvili prefer to save refugees and gave them time to leave...... Isn't it humanity? See your question was just a little sentence, look at to my answer now And after all this you say that I divert the answers.

help to hte separatists by weapon, moral support and I would not encouraged them against Georgians. This two breakaway regions are only enticements to tease Georgians. Moreover they agreed Ossetians to involve Georgia in this conflict, just provocated Georgia whith help from the "peacekeepers".  Remember this? You call this protection? this is peace keeping? And now Russian duma wants to recognize these regions. I'm telling you, you don't know what happened in that days and what was happening there generally. They were shooting to our positions, and this is normal when someone starts shooting to you,you answer the same way, however our president gave a order to stop fire to our's in the morning of 8, nearly at 3-4 am, the shootings started at 11 o'clock on 7 date by Ossetians and "peacekeepers" I think we showed a big patience.So this means that the president had not choosen this kind of solution, they did gave us another way. The peacekeepers must be in the same attitude to the both sides. This is the main function of the peace keepers, moreover the peace keeping is based on this. Maybe it's your imagination about the peace keepers, and your conception about this mission, but it's wrong obviously. also I'm sorry but it is an absurd to compare Georgia-Nato-Russia and Georgia-Russia-Abkhazia/Samachablo, because we need to solve our territorial integrity problem, and peacekeepers must have their part in it.so they are  the mediators, and Nato is a militar-political unification, there is a big difference right?

But Shadow it will be difficult to understand for you the real reasons of this conflicts, you need to have a glance over to Georgia-Russia relations which continues more than two centuries, that's why I started the story from 1801, you did not understand why I mentioned this year, and you asked me about the buildings you need to go through to these two countries history together and than you will get why all this happenes between our countries, you need to find the roofs which starts from this date.As I said Ossetians and Abkhazians are just enticements against us.

[Warrior]

yeah, Shadow I forgot to add that there is a video documentation, about the three hour moratorium, I would give you a link but the speech is in georgian and you won't understand it. You can check it out on english information agencies' sites.