Some thoughts about scams

[jb]

We have seen very recently two cases which led me to begin thinking about this subject.

#1.  Michael's case of outright bald faced lies to get $250 per week for the vacation time spent with him instead of the more likely $250 per month number.

and,,,

#2. Twyrick's girl from Samara.

I know we've hammered this topic to death, but I think it's time we put out the condensed version, because I'd almost bet these two cases are just the tip of the iceberg.  For example, I'm still not at all convinced "itstime" really did meet up with a sex crazed ex-nun.  That one doesn't quite pass the sniff test, 'cause it sure smells fishy to me.  I found it interesting that itstime continued to give "atta boy, go for it~!" advice, right up to the last days as that scam story finished up with the request for "pocket" money to show the customs man.  To the unsuspecting victim, that scaned copy of a visa would have turned the scam into a winner for her, while it would have turned tywrick into toast.

I think what we are seeing in the "Scam" industry is a sort of Darwinian process at work.  The anti-scam sites have already exposed a great many scammers, but those that have been caught and exposed are the dumb ones.  The smart ones have gotten smarter as the games get played out. They learn something new, a slightly different twist with every success.  Unfortunately, men are always going to be on the short side of the learning curve when it comes to matters of the heart.  The smart, unscrupulous scammer, we now know many are not even women, will probably always have the initiative and the suckers are always playing catch up.

In almost every case of a money scam, the initial contact is made by the scammer via one of the free sites where men place adverts for women.  If you are an average 40-50'ish man placing an ad on these free sites, and a hugely good looking 20'ish girl writes you a letter expressing interest in getting to know you, basically it's, "Run, Forest, run~!", because that's a big red flag.  You don't even need to hang around for the love and kisses signed at the bottom of the third or fourth letter.

One of the things I've also noticed over time is to pay attention to where the scam originates.  The density of scammers seems to be inversely proportional to the location economics.  That's why you don't often see or hear of a scam coming out of Moscow.  Moscow's economy is thriving and there's little need to scam a few dollars out of some luckless, lonely American man.  I know it will hurt some feeling around here from the guys who advocate the girls from the "less traveled road", but the facts support the notion that most scams come from regions like Lugansk, Sumara, or some other place where the economy and lifestyle are in poor shape.  Conning $50 or a $100 is a big deal to someone who can live pretty good on $200 a month, and if the scammer has three or four suckers on the string, they are livin' large on easy street.

Comments and additions are welcome, especially from those men who have direct experience with scammers.

[Bruno]

Interesting post... in some way, scammer are like computer virus... a new one virus cannot be catch by anti-virus software until he have already hit some people... heuristic method ( analyse ) allow detect some new variant but not something totaly new...

Be protected at 100% is not possible... the only method for not be scammed is date localy woman and forget FSU woman... but maybe the possible reward allow us to take more risk... take risk is in the nature of man... extreme sport are the perfect example...

[Photo Guy]

I personally wouldn't hang-glide into the Grand Canyon, but searching for wife in the FSU is definitely an extreme sport too.

The scary thing, is that an intelligent scammer will almost always succeed. Sometimes the dumb ones do too, if they are matched up with a naive/ignorant seeker. An intelligent scammer can take you all the way to marriage and a green card and then execute the scam. A local woman can also do something similar.

You can point out the obvious red flags and sometimes that can help. In my opinion, a guy has to fine tune his radar through every step of the process, asking questions and looking and listening very closely to her reactions and thoughts.

We all do this to a large degree. For example, when you walk into an electronics store, how many seconds does it take you to discern a sincere helpful sales person, from a self-centered ass? You have to learn how to tell the difference between a woman who shows you her sincere joy, from a manipulative woman who is faking it.

[Leslie]

SCAM ADVICE FOR NEWBIES
[/b]
I first posted this article back in summer 2002 on another BBS.  It has been extensively plagiarized which I suppose is a compliment.  I just read JB's post and saw that little has really changed since I was searching.  I am weary of posting advice on every thread opened by a newbie that basically asks the same question "Am I being scammed???"  After six years involved in this I have got  "advice fatigue". Newbies don't read the archived posts. They pitch in and ask questions that an evening reading the archived posts would answer. There is a problem here though, the archived threads do contain very wide ranging advice which will cover maybe 80% of newbie queries, but you have to read a lot of threads to find what you need and all these threads are 90% chat so most newbies don't bother.

I  spent 3 years looking for my woman. I am in my third year of marriage to a Ukrainian woman and we have a daughter.  I have been through this process from end to end.  I have learned a thing or three…..

First you must recognize "FAT YURI"  In a lot of cases there is no woman involved !! (at least the one whose photos you are ogling)  In a lot of cases the model you think you are writing to is a guy.  Maybe a crooked agency owner who pays English students to write the fake e-mails you are infatuated with.  JB is quite correct I reckon the Lugansk chamber of commerce runs course on how to scam western guys…..


The Fat Yuri demon manifests itself in thousands of ways. He is getting much smarter, the scams are getting slower, more sophisticated. The business plans of many agencies cover scammers trails. Many agencies have scam business practices. The majority of MOB agencies cater are thinly veiled porn - sending titillating e-mails to wankers who will never make the trip. Oh and the women involved don't look like models. Jack's site has some mug shots of real scammers.  I could go on and on…

There is one common theme to all of this - MONEY.
[/i][/b]
It is as simple as that.

STAGE ONE - INTERNET MARRIGE & DATING AGENCIES
[/i][/b]
This business has really taken off. Do a Yahoo or Google search. You get THOUSANDS of sites. Sad to say it but since I started my search back in 1999, the number of scam agencies has grown exponentially. When I started out the most usual business practice was to buy addresses. Now the agencies try to "lock you in" make you spend more $$ with them.

The most obvious scam is the agency will not let you have the women's address and telephone number. You have to use their expensive e-mail and translation service. Or match making. Or book an expensive trip. Yada, Yada, Yada…. Here is my first rule;

TABLET OF STONE 1 - DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH ANY AGENCY WHICH WILL NOT LET THE LADY SEND YOU HER FULL CONTACT DETAILS.

If you progress beyond a couple of exchanges of letters ask for the ladies full name, address and telephone number (or the number of a friend where you can ring her).

TABLET OF STONE 2 - IF THE LADY WILL NOT GIVE YOU HER FULL CONTACT DETAILS - RUN FORREST, RUN!!

This is so obvious! But so many newbies get caught at this point. If your woman will not give you this information she is either an internet spook, a scammer, or not interested in you. Maybe she is all three. You are wasting your time, move on.

STAGE TWO - WRITING AND WISH FULFILLMENT
[/i][/b]
At this stage nearly all guys start to entertain "wish fulfillment fantasies" They stare at her photos, read the love letters and begin to wish their "red-hot-kova" is won! The lady enters their dreams (and maybe their masturbation fantasies!). In this state many guys are vulnerable, they think they can buy their dreams and in the process often fill the purses of scam women. I know this is true. Been there, done that and come back to reality wearing the "humiliated" tee shirt…

Experience has taught me a few things.

TABLET OF STONE 3 - VERIFY YOU ARE WRITING TO A REAL WOMAN WHO IS INTERESTED IN YOU

Again this is obvious, but I have made this mistake and so do lots of other guys! If you are getting attached to a woman you MUST do two things.

1. You must verify she is who she says she is. [/b]The best way to do this is to have a gift (Flowers?) hand delivered to her home address and get photos of her receiving your gift. I think it is a good idea to have this done independently (i.e. not through the agency where you met) Newbies - If you are uncertain how to do this post a thread saying how do I send flowers to my girl in "Kiev" (insert the name of her city here). One of the services here will post a reply to your request. This will cost around $50. It is money well spent. It checks your ladies address and you get photos of her as she really is (Not the professional photos which could have been "photo shopped" and been taken years ago)

2. You must talk with her on the telephone.[/b] If she speaks good English this is easy. If not organize 3 way calls with an interpreter. Newbies - Look in the classified ads section. Several good interpreters can help you with this. Talk with your lady, reality check - does she sound honest and genuine? Is she interested in you?

OK so now you know you are talking to a real person who appears to like you. Do not make the common mistake of offering her money. You cannot buy her love or affection. You can fill her purse though! (Fat Yuri says Thanks!) The next problem that arises when your "girl friend" asks for money. There is a golden rule here.

TABLET OF STONE 4 - NEVER SEND MONEY TO A WOMAN YOU HAVE NOT MET

This is very obvious, simple, but we get lots of newbie posts on this. Fat Yuri is getting smarter. Scams are getting more sophisticated and slow burning. The strategy of; Slowly, Slowly, Catchee Monkey! is becoming much more common.

It is this simple. If you do not send money Fat Yuri is not interested. You avoid him by obeying this rule.

TABLET OF STONE 5 - IF A WOMAN ASKS YOU FOR MONEY, IT'S A SCAM

I you have checked the lady out as above I will make a single exception to this. If she is using an internet café allow her $25 a month max to cover costs (exchange of 2 e-mails a week). No more.

Any other request for money is a HUGE RED FLAG.

The scammers are getting very smart. They want to have their fish securely hooked before they ask for money. The guy is vulnerable. My Natasha (insert woman's name here) a scammer NO! (insert wish fulfillment fantasy here) It cannot be true! BUT IT IS. Period. Scammers are very inventive!

$350 for tourist visa so she can visit you.
$1500 for Visa and air tickets to visit you
$500 for emergency dental work.
$3000 for hospital expenses to cover car accident.

Yada, Yada, Yada. The list is endless. Guys are scammed all the time. Most are so embarrassed they keep quite about it. Some post details of the scam here or on other sites. I have learnt that we train the FSU witches. We create the sharks. Sending money feeds them, causes them to breed, multiply…. DO NOT SEND MONEY.

If you get this far with your internet girl friend you are doing well. Now you just have to contain your wish fulfillment fantasies and remember this rule;

TABLET OF STONE 6 - YOU CANNOT FALL IN LOVE UNTIL YOU MEET

Do not fall in love with photos. Expressions of love in letters are not grounded in reality. You have to get on a plane and go and meet your lady. You have to see if this relationship is real. This brings up my next rule;

TABLET OF STONE 7 - PLAN A TRIP TO FSU

Sometimes "the write one, visit one" (WOVO) strategy works. There are happy endings! Other times it does not. I wrote to a teacher in Samara. Wonderful letters. I lived my wish fulfillment fantasy. I went to visit her ($3000 trip). At the first meeting the chemistry between us was negative. I never saw or spoke to her again. Four months of hopes and dreams smashed in two hours. Many other experienced guys have had this experience. This is why I favor the "Write many Visit many" (WMVM) strategy. If you use the WOVO strategy remember my final rule;

TABLET OF STONE 8 - ALWAYS HAVE BACK UP PLANS FOR YOUR TRIP

You have lots of choices here. Just make sure that your vacation plan does not restrict you to being with a single woman. You might hate each other! Visiting a woman in her home town is best. You can really check things out then. Meet her family and friends. If not make sure you can move on if things don't work out.  Make sure you are in control of your travel arrangements.  Letting your pen pal organize everything is OK if things work out but what if they don't??  Alone and friendless in small town Ukraine is NOT a good idea - More so when you don't speak enough Russian to buy a train ticket to civilization.

 

Always have a back up plan to do other things or meet other women if that is your style.[/b]

[jb]

Excellent post, Les.

[andrewfi]

Gents, you guys are training the scammers.

I live in Estonia, one of the wealthier countries of the FSU. Because we are wealthier there are fewer marriage agencies, there is less need for them and women in any country really do not want to move country to live with a foreign guy unless their current life and medium/long term prospects are very poor.

But - Over the past few months I have noticed, from several different sources over here that the phenomenon of entering into electronic and sometimes physical 'relationships' simply to get money, gifts and travel is on the increase. How do I know?

Well, in most social phenomena, there is a period when the new behaviour is underground, or secret, known only by a few people. So, I knew about scamming behaviour from the MOB boards and only at second hand from anyone else, or from the working girls and 'sleepy girls' who have been at it since forever and those I would not have known about if I did not live here and read these boards, I certainly could not recognise them on my earlier visits to Russia and Estonia. But now, my girlfriend, who has just been in hospital, told me about the woman in the bed opposite hers who makes something of a career of the thing. She has several guys on the go, IIRC a Swede, French and American at least. She has travelled to France and Sweden and the guys ALL sent her substantial money to help her whilst she was ill. S and I talked about it and then when we talk with her friends, what do we find, but that yes, one of the girls has recently gotten into the lark and is doing just fine with it. So, now we have ordinary women, with jobs, ordinary lives and computers realising just what an opportunity lies ahead. I can not believe that this is an isolated set of coincidences, life is not made that way. What was until recently a fairly well kept secret is now going mainstream. I am sure that what is happening in Tallinn has been happening for a long time in the areas where there are active MOB businesses, we are, if anything well behind the curve. I expect to be asked at some time soon to show women how to set up and run a database, how to do form letters, perhaps even how to write to you guys.

For sure, though, it seems from the small sample that I know of, that genuine seekers of foreign guys are very rare indeed in comparison to the women who have realised how easy it is to fleece the nieve, lonely and unskilled seekers of foreign women.

Now, more than ever, it is true that unless you can do well at home, you will likely not succeed over here. Of course if you do well at home, then you need not look over here, I think...

[Photo Guy]

I expect to be asked at some time soon to show women how to set up and run a database, how to do form letters, perhaps even how to write to you guys.

How will you respond to those questions?

[andrewfi]

I don't think I will be writing any emails. But as to the other stuff? Well, these are useful and transferable skills. I think it would be hard to turn down general assistance in those areas.

If I saw a woman able to move from, for example, shop assistant to something a little better because of these skills, that would be great as far as I am concerned.

[Photo Guy]

Oh, general assistance. I thought you meant specific assistance.

[Rvrwind]

Oh I am gonna get busted & flamed for this I'm sure!!!:(

Does not all that jb & leslie & even andrew have stated upthread explain the nessessity to deal with an honest agency. It seems to me that most of the scamming takes place through less than reputable agencies, free sites, or places like ICQ or Lavalife personals & such.

All this attests to the fact that an honest agency (ie read small) is more in tune with the women on their site. They don't have 10,000 women that they don't know, they don't have numerous sub contract agents that they have no control over & really don't try to control. Their main objective is to put as many faces as they can on their site to rope in the suckers.

My Daddy had a saying when he was selling cattle years back, he told me, "If you can't Dazzle them with brilliance, Baffle them with Bullshit!!" That is exactly what I see happening in this industry. The companies with the huge data base of women are in effect are, "Baffling you with Bullshit", whereas a smaller trustworthy agent must "Dazzle you with Brilliance". In my opinion the larger the site, the more flashy it is, the less trustworthy it becomes.

A simple get to the point & disregard all the bluster is my first choice. Many of us old timers have been through the mill & learned our lessons the hard way, but what iritates me the most is when someone asks our advice & then gets screwed because he didn't take the advice he was given. Thinkin' we don't know what we are talking about & then comes back whinin' & cryin' cause he got taken. No sympathy for that sort will be forthcoming from me.

I would just like to add a little rule or two of mine that isn't included in Leslie's post:

If she/he sends two or three new pics with every email & they tend to get more revealling with each email, RUN & RUN FAST!! Chances are it is not even a woman you are writing too. BTDT the pics were hot but thanks to good advice from some boardmembers I caught on. Also if the email response frequency is like, everday, be wary. In my experience the honest gals might get out 2 a week if your very lucky, usually less until you meet & connect.

It's a common sense game but Istill maintain that supporting honest agencies & taking $'s away from the bad ones will in the long run benifit those who are in need of the agency route. Those who are not, need to use common sense, which unfortunatly is sorely lacking amoungst the male of the speceis and the scammers use that to their advantage.

Okay, flame away!!!

RVR-Canadian Cowboy

[Bruno]

Also if the email response frequency is like, everday, be wary. In my experience the honest gals might get out 2 a week if your very lucky, usually less until you meet & connect.

Some woman have computer and internet home... like us...

They are able to write or chat each day... thing change in the world, and in FSU, these change are very fast... Several FSU woman have acces to internet without real problem... of course, this is more true for woman who live in city...

Second, several woman use computer from the work... i see it with the traffic on my site... FSU woman during the day time in the week ( work computer )... western man during the week-end ( home computer )...

The e-mail frequency have nothing to make with red flag... e-mail quality "yes"... do she reply to you question, do she use your name in place of "my love" or "my friend" ?

 

[BC]

Never having used the services of an agency or online dating, there isn't much I can say with authority regarding RW scams.

I can say however, that scams in general prey on human weaknesses whether it be greed, a lonely heart or some percieved insufficiency i.e. get rich quick schemes, get laid now schemes and pills professing to lengthen and prolong the effectiveness of certain bodily parts.

IMHO the first 'rule' to prevent a scam is to evaluate your true motivations when plodding into situations where everything seems just too good to be true. What attracts us most will usually be something that fills a 'gap' or weakness in our lives. Those who honestly evaluate themselves and quickly drop the RW idea are the strong ones.

I'm sure there are many out there that meet a 40's-20's AM/tasty RW couple and say to themselves 'boy.. if he can do it I surely can', creating an obsession that just won't quit and runs out of control.

Following the Pied Piper to the FSU is just asking for trouble.. big trouble.





 

[Leslie]

Oh I am gonna get busted & flamed for this I'm sure!!!:(


Well it won't be from me Richard.  What you said is plain common sense.

An honest agency or interpretor/fixer is a great advantage during for the first couple of trips.  You are spot on about the photos too.  Beach shots with her friends are fine.  Professional studio shots in her underwear or less are simply NOT.  I remember an arguement(well heated discussion ) I had with Jack about a young woman who sent me a provocative photo of her best asset (her popka)  I replied with a "Dear Jane" letter.  Jack wrote me and said this woman had a serious interest in me I said that I didn't care.  I had NO interest in marrying a woman who would send photos like that to a guy she had never met.

On the letter frequency issue I think you have to distinguish two different scenarios:-

1.  You are e-mailing via an agency - maybe using translation services and paying $5+ a pop.  Daily letters in this situation are a HUGE RED FLAG.  Stop writing the girl.  Indeed stop using that agency.  You are being milked like a cow!

2. If the woman speaks/writes good english and has access to a computer at home or at work then it is a different situation.  Most women with these facilities use the free sites (what do they need an agency for??)  In this case you have to look at the content of the e-mails not their frequency.

This final point comes from my wife.  A decent women would NEVER ASK for money from a guy she had never met....

Andrew you are quite correct the professional WM girlfriend is now a career option

Americans have a real "taboo" about having sex with prostitutes.  For them it is terrible to bargain with a prostitutka on the price of a BJ.  But hey this woman is being honest. $50 for sex.  This is what you get. The professional girlfriend in my opinion is way worse than a prostitutka.  She wants as much as possible from you whilst giving as little as possible herself.  It is easy to spend $500 on such a woman and have only your left hand for company.  I have talked with several American men who had this experience.  Of course they maintained they were trying to win the heart of a decent woman, not buying sex.

WHAT COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

It is guys like this who create the sharks.  Painful truth is that WM train the scammers.  The more Western guys that visit throwing their money about the more the local women are corrupted.  When I first visited Vinnitsa there were very few MOB tourists.  Western guys were rare and drew interest.  In 2002 I met a woman called Tanya (not her real name) she was a couple of years out of Uni spoke good english and was a bright vivacious girl.  Well 3 years "working" in the MOB business has transformed this woman into a fraudulent, calculating bitch with an armor plated heart.  And she ain't the only example I know.

But I know I am wasting my time explaining this.  You see the majority of guys involved in this enterprise are weirdos.  The only card in their hand is $$$ so of course they will play it......

 

 

 

 

 

[andrewfi]

On RWG, I am receiving yet another pasting for suggesting that a girl who took a guy's gift of money and then some time afterward ended the relationship was not a scammer. This guy had visited the girl, IIRC a student of 20 years old, proposed marriage, been accepted had offered money gifts, unsolicited, that had also been accepted. She then asked him for $500 for a holiday on the Black Sea. He fisrt demurred, then prevaricated and then finally offered $300. She took the holiday. He was upset becasue she was incommunicado for a few days, whilst she was away. Shortly after her return, following an exchange of emails, the relationship ended. The guy subsequently published her name and address on RWG claiming she was a scammer to loud hurrahs from the peanut gallery.

Now, it seems to me that whilst she is not perfect, that her actions were predicated upon the man's own behaviour and the expectations he himself had built up. The point being that, yes it is we who make the monsters. They did not exist before we came along. My guess is that she dumped the guy becasue she felt, with some justification that he should not have queried the $500 and that sending the $300 was 'selfish'. She almost certainly would not have done either if he had not been giving her money for 'English lessons'.

But, the thing is that she tells her friends what has happened, they realise that taking money from Americans is easy, they do not even have to ask. All they have to do is write a few emails and bingo, Mr Lonely 'falls in love'. Now, of the girls I know who are becoming engaged in this racket, it would be hard to argue that these were bad women, that they were evil, or even that they were not giving value for the money. They are ordinary women who have seen an opportunity presented by guys who make themselves the victims. Yet avoiding these issues is so easy.

One does not need to join an 'honest' agency, if indeed one can be found. One simply has to make sure that one understands how relationships work, practice them, do not give money away and most certainly never, never ever expect more than one deserves. The man who says 'I went to the FSU becasue I can get a 'better' woman than I can back home' is going to be scalped, perhaps not today, but sometime and badly.

The problem is going to get worse. In Estonia, for example, over 50% of the population regularly use the internet. Broadband internet access is, apart from WiFi, the standard form of connection and a perfectly decent pc with all the needed gubbins costs just over 200 Euro and can be bought on credit for pennies a month. ICQ, Yahoo! MSN etc are all free, webchat is common and there are millions of guys waiting to part with money. Girls spend evenings together around a pc, writng to guys, egging each other on and sharing ideas. Today, most do not think of money, but how fast will the meme spread?

[Michelangelo]

Oh I am gonna get busted & flamed for this I'm sure!!!:(
If she/he sends two or three new pics with every email & they tend to get more revealling with each email, RUN & RUN FAST!! Chances are it is not even a woman you are writing too.

Not flamed at all, Rvd....just some comments...

I think that most of what you and Les shared was excellent.

But if a girl has had a romance with a man and has had lots of pictures made to share with him over a six month relatioinship, then breaks up--well--she still has the pics. Same goes for me.  When I started this journey, I had zero pictures.  Now I have dozens.

And if the girl is with an agency, she can usually drop by thier office daily and send you an email for free.   I spent several days at agencies, and there was steady traffic of girls bopping in and sending emails.   Lots of activity before work, at lunch, and after work.

So just because you get letters daily from a girl in response to your letters to her and just becasue she has lots of pics to send you, it does not mean it's a scam.

It could be--but not for certain.

______________________________

More on pictures.  Is is bad if your girl sends you pics in remote locations, far from home?  I say "no."  Girls have the right to meet men they are interested in, just as we want to meet them.  And the most attractive girls will have lots of opportunities.

Of course, I remember taking nice shots of my girl in exotic locations, and when I took them I thought "some other guy may get this in an email someday  LOL

But that's ok--I'm looking and she is looking, too. Fair enough...

p.s.  Or, you can only make pictures together as a couple--you nor she will every use those to attract someone else   (pic deleted by michael)

p.s.s.  Guys--always meet the girl for the first time in her hometown.  Save the vacation trip for her when you both know you have chemistry together and are serious about your relationship.

[Bruno]

But I know I am wasting my time explaining this.  You see the majority of guys involved in this enterprise are weirdos.  The only card in their hand is $$$ so of course they will play it......

Weirdos !!! From my site experience, people who start so quest are up the average man... financialy secure, good work, succes life... and several time, divorced from local woman...

The only problem is that they believe the propaganda making by some agency... Several agency show the russian woman like the wonderfull wife and perfect lover... it is marketing strategie... RW are not very different that other woman... for some charateristic, you can find advantage to RW but for some other, it is the reverse...

And about $$$, i agree with you... several use it for attract woman... in my case, it is not a problem, i have no $$$ to show... maybe a few cent maximum  ... i have always say that middle class people are more lucky that rich one... when you have not a lot of money, and that you inform the lady about this... if she stay with you, she will have other reason that your money...

Several idiot send photo to woman where they stay near big villa, big car, airplane,... perfect for attract scammer... myself, i send photo where i am in work clothes near my work tractor :P

 

 

[Michelangelo]

...You see the majority of guys involved in this enterprise are weirdos.  The only card in their hand is $$$ so of course they will play it......
]
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I think your original post was excellent, Les.  But I have a problem with this last statement and your use of the word "MAJORITY."  I have interacted with lots of guys on this board, and they are not "weird."  Also, I have made friends with guys I met at marriage agencies who were also visiting girls in the FSU.  They were great guys.

But I have to admit your view is a common view of we men who seek an overseas bride.  I learned quickly not to mention this at work....it damages my reputation and I lose business.  

I will wait until I have my girl with me in the US to make this big announcement, and let my girl demonstrate the wisdom of my choice of a Russian bride...

[coco]

Too funny-pas mal mon vieux.:dude:

[Michelangelo]

Too funny-pas mal mon vieux.:dude:

hmmmm....I think you said to Bruno "not too bad, old man." ?

[coco]

Yes-mais oui;)

[Leslie]

Andrew,

 

I browsed the thread you mentioned.  Yawn.  The same old story.  Older guy reckons he can buy a young girls affection.  That story is as old as our species. 

 

When you give money to a woman - it is a gift.  [/b]

 

You are not buying her services. After all you are not paying a prostitute. There is no "money back" guarantee !!

 

If a guy pays for clothes, shoes, maybe a vacation. It is his decision.  It does not give  ANY rights to happily ever after.  Still less to getting your money back.

 

East European women play the dating game according to their culture NOT YOURS. [/b]

 

Learn about "sponsorship"  It is perfectly normal for a rich middle aged guy to maintain a young mistress in Russia or Ukraine.  So normal that if a rich guy does not have a mistress other guys will be gossiping about him being "blue".

 

Wives put up with this because they don't get rich by divorce - they get poor and there is no welfare state.

 

Mistresses know their "shelf life" is limited.  25 is old for a mistress so they make what they can, while they can.

 

These women are "survivors".  You MUST understand this.  Survival is selfish.  Survival can all to easily turn into exploitation, in some cases without limits. 

Read Maxx's story.

 

Ukrainian men KNOW how to deal with behaviour like this.  It starts with a good solid punch in the face.  In Ukrainian culture the authorities are not interested in domestic violence.  A guy would have to do very serious injury to a woman before the police would get involved. (beyond looking for vodka money).

 

When you understand the culture it will surprise you just how tightly most guys control their mistresses.  "Short rein" does not even come close.  Devushka steps out of line and she is history.  Beauty is plentiful.  Money is scarce….

 

Now enter naive western guys playing the dating game by western rules.  Throwing money around.  If you just spend what you normally do on vacation you will appear rich. $20 a week is good pay in provincial Ukraine. [/b] When you drop this kind of money on a round of drinks.  What kind of impression do you think this makes??[/font]

 

In western society women call the shots in the dating game. Most WM have no practice in telling a woman NO.

 

Guys like this are "MANA" from heaven to these young women.  [/b]

 

Ask Robert(Anono) about this.  He spent the summer in Kiev.  Hundreds of guys were being reamed out by these girls (It's sex tourist season) and most of them are so STUPID they don't even realize it. 

 

I speak and understand Russian now and I have overhead some conversations between these Western guys, young women and interpreters.  Blatant does not even begin to describe what is being said….

 

I stand by this judgement -

 

"But I know I am wasting my time explaining this.  You see the majority of guys involved in this enterprise are weirdos.  The only card in their hand is $$$ so of course they will play it......"[/i]

 [/i]

9 out of 10 guys who write to women will never make the trip.  Ask the agency owners.  We might argue and reckon maybe it is 8 out of 10.

 

OK, average is 5 out of 10.  So Mr Average is a guy hunched over a computer screen ogling the pretty girls.  Beer in one hand.  Dick in the other. 

 

It is PORNO.  The MOB game deserves it's public reputation.  Go to Planet Love.  Read some of LP's posts.  He describes MOB losers far more eloquently than I ever could.

 

Of the guys that make the trip at least one third are weird enough for me to pretend to be French or Dutch so I don't have to speak with them.  I truly don't know how Jack and Kevin cope.  I would be helpless to stop myself.  I would do everyone a favour.

 

Simply kill and bury them in the forest…..

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Michelangelo]

[size=3 You see the majority of guys involved in this enterprise are weirdos.  The only card in their hand is $$$ so of course they will play it......"[/size][/i]

Well, that was a long, double spaced response, so I'll just repeat my response to the last time you said it.

I have a problem with this last statement and your use of the word "MAJORITY." I have interacted with lots of guys on this board, and they are not "weird." Also, I have made friends with guys I met at marriage agencies who were also visiting girls in the FSU. They were great guys.

There are many of us at RWD making these trips.  Are we weirdos?  As I said, the men I meet on the road in Ukraine are great guys. In fact, I would judge them as being smart risk takers.  I'm also impressed with guys here like JB and Bruce and Rvd and others who have won at this game.  They are not weird.

I'd just ask you to rethink clasifying the majority of us as weird.

[jb]

Leslie is a Scot, somewhere around here I have a picture of him getting married wearing a skirt, he calls it a kilt, but it still looks like a skirt.  .

So,,, when he says someone is a weirdo, you have to make some allowances...

However, he's also right about the quality of men making the trip, we have discussed some of the men we've met and seen when in airports as we come to and from the FSU,  most are very strange men.

[ConnerVT]

...You see the majority of guys involved in this enterprise are weirdos. The only card in their hand is $$$ so of course they will play it......
]

I think your original post was excellent, Les. But I have a problem with this last statement and your use of the word "MAJORITY." I have interacted with lots of guys on this board, and they are not "weird." Also, I have made friends with guys I met at marriage agencies who were also visiting girls in the FSU. They were great guys.
[/quote]
The majority of guys in this enterprise are not spending any time on forums like this.

I have met guys at agencies, and almost all were somewhat what I'd call 'characters'.

I also know several people who work/worked in this industry, and some of the stories they tell are quite bizarre.

[Rvrwind]

WeirdosWeirdos !!! From my site experience, people who start so quest are up the average man... financialy secure, good work, succes life... and several time, divorced from local woman...
 !!! From my site experience, people who start so quest are up the average man... financialy secure, good work, succes life... and several time, divorced from local woman...

All I can say Bruno is you have been lucky. Some of the morons I have met, turn my guts. They are pigs & perverts and like Leslie said:

Simply kill and bury them in the forest…..

Nice Tractor though, wanna come cut my lawn, LOL.

I have a problem with this last statement and your use of the word "MAJORITY." I have interacted with lots of guys on this board, and they are not "weird." Also, I have made friends with guys I met at marriage agencies who were also visiting girls in the FSU. They were great guys

Micheal, Micheal Micheal, I have said it before & will say it again...The men you have met & those you know involved in this endeavour are but 1 drop of water in a 45 gal drum. They are not even close to making the majority of guys involved in this. There are literaly thousands of guys writing to women every day of the week & I do mean thousands.

Your little group of friends & aquaintances are nothing when lumped into the big picture. I have met hundreds of guys in this adventure, remember I worked for two different agencies & am currently building my own so I think I speak from experience. I have to agree with Leslie with a disclaimer, I wouldn't quite say they are all wierdos but many of them are, the others are just plain losers that couldn't get a woman back home & figure they can come over here & pick a puppy off the shelf. 

If you wish I can site you a few examples of some of the crap I have delt with over the years. For instance the guys who like to brag about the size of their manhhod in their introductory letter. Nice way to break the ice!:X Or the 60-70 year old perverts who want a 16-20 year old wife. or the 45 year old dewd who sat in my office one day & had the audacity to compare himself to me. I laughed so Fu#king hard he quit the program. I said Dewd you are 5 years younger than me & look 10 years older & you think your gonna get a 20 year old, gimme a break!!! Or the guy who wanted me to get every womans bra size before he would make a decision on which ones to write to. Or the 65 year old guy who sat who sat at my computer picking out women from 20-25 years old & when I asked him why when he doesn't have a chance in hell he said to me & with a straight face mind you, well they are going out with me. I in turn said hell Bubba you buy me dinner, drinks & flowers & I'll fu#king go out with you but that don't mean I am going to marry you!!!

This is but a very small sample. Believe me you have no friggin' idea of what goes on in this industry. This is a haven for perverts. I am fortunate as I don't give a damn anymore, I'm not in it to get rich so I have no compuction in telling a guy to take a flying F#$K!!!

I even had one guy threaten to sue me because I read his introductory letter & refused to deliver it to the ladies. He wrote the same letter to 30 women in the program, a vulgar piece of garbage I have not seen since. I was even polite enough to give him the opportunity to rewrite it & he freaked & was gonna sic his lawyer on me for opening his mail. I just said numbnuts who do you think reads your mail.? the women don't read or write English were you born stupid or did you have to take a course in school for that? My terps read it & refused to read it to the ladies & brought it to my attention. I live & work in Russia, you want to sue me ass h)le, go for it, but don't ever come back to this agency!

These are the type of people we get to deal with, whether you take exception to it or not, they are the majority & the bread & butter for most agencies that have no scruples or morals!!!

RVR:Canadian Cowboy