Some thoughts about scams

[andrewfi]

Les ~ You are right about the costs and the people involved and jb, you too are right. But in running some table napkin numbers I wanted to show, among other things that there are many, many guys chasing after just that very small slice and, for sure, they are the ordinary guys with a dream, fantasy, whatever. There are people on this board doing exactly the same.

I guess that, if truth be told, almost everyone chasing foreign women is hoping for more than he deserves, can ordinarily get, something for nothing. If t'were not so, then pareto would not apply in marriage agencies. Too often we look at things entirely subjectively, what I was trying to was to add a somewhat objective nuance to the story and I think that the numbers make a powerful case. I do not know that all my numbers are accurate, but I bet they are of the right order of magnitude. The case holds with significant changes in assumptions and that leads us to the heart of the problem.

1) Too many guys think that they are entitled to something that they are not.

2) Too many guys do not do what they need to do to get what they want. (either becasue they won't or can't!)

3) Too many guys are writing to too few women and thus the communication is, in many cases, unlikely to be written by the person they thought it was.

Bottom line is that unrealistic expectations as to outcomes leads to disappointment and to the scammiing that occurs. I have no qualms in saying that the people who steal from unwitting mugs are in the wrong, but in the end, the scamming only ever happens when a guy has unrealistic expectations. It happens in no other way.

[Bruno]

« Mid Thirties with a child is usually [/b]Ms Desperate.  If [/b]she wants to emigrate then she will claim any likely candidate and marry the first man who asks because it is likely to be the only chance she will get.

[/font][/size]
Includes the words usually and if - I was not making an inductive statement like 'All swans are white'  I have don't doubt that you have chosey mid thirties women with children on your catalog. I have dated several women like this.  I have also dated Ms Desperate on several occasions!

Simple fact is that older, uglier women with more dependents will get fewer offers.[/quote][/font][/size][/quote]
I have find more desperate women in the young sexy cutie that in the older one... young woman have not a lot to loose when she immigrate to new country and a lot to win...

Older woman need to abandon a career, a lot of real friend, strong family, maybe his own home...

Actually, i am "dating" a woman from 37 year old, with children... she have a good work ( earn almost the same that me but this in Belarus ), will buy her own appartment for her son... She is not desperate, she is the more difficult woman that i have know in FSU, but in the same way, the more interesting...

More, who are you for say that older woman are ugly... usualy, woman are the more beautiful between 30 and 35 y.o. , and some are ready to keep these beauty very long... the 20 y.o are not more beautiful, they are only more young... some go change a lot during the next few year... a woman around 30 year old don't change a lot during the next decade... a difficult periode is around 45 y.o. when the hormone lead to some physical change... sometime in the good way, sometime in the bad way.

[Bruno]

JB,

"How can we help the unhelpable"

We can't and we should not even try.

Well, I guess that effectively ends my usefulness to the RWD.[/quote]
Don't worry JB... i don't like your a$$hole language, sometime too much hard... but with time, i have learn to read between the line and find the good advice...

You are so much valuable that other member here... in anyway, in some case, only shock therapy is working and you seem to be the specialist for this...

The unhelpable don't visit so forum... use so forum is already a first step... people come here because they know that they cannot resolve problem alone and ask help... the danger is from other man, who think that they know all and run like a bull in these process... unfortunaly, you know what happen with the bull in corrida... usualy, he is the looser...

 

[Michelangelo]

I guess that, if truth be told, almost everyone chasing foreign women is hoping for more than he deserves, can ordinarily get...

Bottom line is that unrealistic expectations as to outcomes leads to disappointment and to the scammiing that occurs. [/b]

I think you  are overreaching, Andrewfin.  

We can and should have high expectations.  And we can "get" that girl if we are patient and persistent.

My experience in my trips to Ukraine was that there are a lot of very pretty girls who have just finished university that want to marry an American.  These girls are well-educated, they dress attractively, and know what they are doing.  To them, the economic advantage and the call of adventure is strong.  They want a foreign man.

Go and enjoy yourself.  Set your goal for having a good time and dating these girls, getting to know them and their city and their culture.  If you want to write the top girl at an agency, do so!  But have backup plans in place, too.

Personally, one of my most fun trips to Ukraine was when I veared away from my first choice and spent 2 weeks with some really hot girls...hitting the discos and having a blast.  My friend who was with me stayed with one girl--and has been there living with her for 5 months now.  So he is doing it right--write many, date many, invest in the one you have great chemistry with.  

I thought about one girl seriously myself--but I want all factors to be alomost perfect, so I passed.

That is an individual choice--go for the 8 in looks and personality if you wish.  I will not conceed to these rich Europeans you talked about

Each to their own...

And as far me--I shall return

[Leslie]

JB,

You misunderstood me! 

The point I meant to make is the smart guys listen and learn. Some of them succeed.  Look at the class of 2002 Richard, AJ, Connor, Me - but we are few compared with all the guys around then.

If a guy is unhelpable don't waste your time.  The idiots will crash and burn (or give up) despite everything you say.

[andrewfi]

Michael ~ other than to know that there are people on this board who are expecting too much whilst offering too little, I have no way of knowing if you, in particular are. There is a very big difference between socialising with attractive women, significantly more attractive and younger than ourselves, and being married. Give us a call when you have manged the latter!:) 

So, am I overreaching when I suggest that scams only occur when we expect too much? I know not, it is the basis of the con-artist's game. It is not possible to con an honest man. If we are honest with ourselves (most importantly) then a scam simply will not happen.

Actually I was trying to think of a situation where this might not be true. In the end, the only things I could think of were plain old theft - abuse of trust things. Kinda like a person borrowed money from me and did not repay all of it. Was I scammed or conned, nope, she just stole the money, decided not to give it back. IMHO a different type of thing.

[Michelangelo]

Michael ~ other than to know that there are people on this board who are expecting too much whilst offering too little, I have no way of knowing if you, in particular are. There is a very big difference between socialising with attractive women, significantly more attractive and younger than ourselves, and being married. Give us a call when you have manged the latter!:)

I won't rush into that dare  And you are correct, I did not marry the girls who wanted to marry me, so maybe it was all a scam?  I don't think so...

My point is that American men can do very well for themselves in the FSU.  Yes, we have to be careful and not be scammed.  But the vast majority of attractive women in the FSU who meet American men are not out to scam you for money, but to find an attractive foreign man they can better their life through and whom they can create a family with...

And with every succussful marriage, (such as with JB and KenC and Bruce and Rvd) the words spreads to the FSU bride's friends, and they want to have the same thing happen to them.  The movement grows stronger...

[Bruno]

And with every succussful marriage, (such as with JB and KenC and Bruce and Rvd) the words spreads to the FSU bride's friends, and they want to have the same thing happen to them. The movement grows stronger...

Keep on dreaming Michael... RW are not fool... it is not because they have friend successful in foreign marriage that they wish the same type of marriage... several are happily married to local man... some have too much to loose for change of country... love is a wonderful feeling but the real life is not make only from love...

A approximation of woman ready to marry a foreign man in FSU is around 100.000 woman... it seem that these number don't change a lot... if your theorie was true, it is long time that FSU was without RW... How much RW marry western man each year ? Maybe 10000... The problem is the number of valuable man... so much very old fat man visit FSU... some find a wife but several RW don't wish so man... it is not because they are poor, without husband that they are ready to marry the first man visiting them... one caracterisque of the russian spirit is some high pride over themself... you don't choice a RW, she choice you... or she use you...

And since the level of life become better in FSU, RW become more difficult in her choice... and the number of woman ready to marry a foreign man lower...

But your logica can work for scammer... since they don't marry, they are always on the market... and each "succes" in scam motivate new scammer...

[Michelangelo]

Interesting post...

Perhaps, Bruno, perhaps..

To you and others worried about taking a chance or getting scammed...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you have a sense of adventure in your soul,

if you like the unusual over the usual,

if travel is your passion,

if you have coins in your pocket,

if you are a dreamer and you usually reach your dreams,

then go the the FSU and make your dreams of meeting and marrying a beautiful foreign girl come true.

Or, in the words of Robert Frost:

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--   


I took the one less traveled by,   
And that has made all the difference.

[Bruno]

Usualy, road who already exist are not the best adapted for me or the more short... i am unique and i build my own way... but i can use some tool used by other...

[Leslie]

Well Michael,

When I read this -

"My experience in my trips to Ukraine was that there are a lot of very pretty girls who have just finished university that want to marry an American. These girls are well educated, they dress attractively, and know what they are doing. To them, the economic advantage and the call of adventure is strong. They want a foreign man.

Go and enjoy yourself. Set your goal for having a good time and dating these girls, getting to know them and their city and their culture. If you want to write the top girl at an agency, do so! But have backup plans in place, too."

I thought about your personal story as you have posted it here.  I think you should read Scott's (Stoichman) trip reports.  One is here, the earlier ones are on RWG.

I think Scott has finally given up on this quest.  He is a very good looking younger guy who has been playing in the scene you describe for years, without success I might add.

Dating this type of women is easy if you spend the money.  I did it just because I could.  Marriage is a different matter.   The story you posted here tells of a young woman who took you for a long expensive ride.  I hope you enjoyed the journey but be thankful that it did not include emigration and marriage.  You have posted a picture and you don't claim to be a millionaire.  No insult - but do you think you can hold a "10"  back home in the USA?? 

Andrew is correct. Guys get scammed when they have unreasonable expectations.

More importantly many guys fail because they have unreasonable expectations. 

Sure in FSU you can attract someone younger and prettier than you expect to back home but TO A REASONABLE EXTENT !!!

Most guys involved in MOB have little or no idea of the type of woman they are looking for.  Take this simple test.  Take a sheet of paper and write a description the type of woman you are looking for.  There is a catch - you cannot say anything about how the woman looks....

How many sheets of paper can you fill - One??

 

 

[Michelangelo]

Well Michael,

When I read this -

"My experience in my trips to Ukraine was that there are a lot of very pretty girls who have just finished university that want to marry an American. These girls are well educated, they dress attractively, and know what they are doing. To them, the economic advantage and the call of adventure is strong. They want a foreign man.

Go and enjoy yourself. Set your goal for having a good time and dating these girls, getting to know them and their city and their culture. If you want to write the top girl at an agency, do so! But have backup plans in place, too."

I thought about your personal story as you have posted it here.  I think you should read Scott's (Stoichman) trip reports.  One is here, the earlier ones are on RWG.

I think Scott has finally given up on this quest.  He is a very good looking younger guy who has been playing in the scene you describe for years, without success I might add.

Dating this type of women is easy if you spend the money.  I did it just because I could.  Marriage is a different matter.   The story you posted here tells of a young woman who took you for a long expensive ride.  I hope you enjoyed the journey but be thankful that it did not include emigration and marriage.  You have posted a picture and you don't claim to be a millionaire.  No insult - but do you think you can hold a "10"  back home in the USA??

Andrew is correct. Guys get scammed when they have unreasonable expectations.

More importantly many guys fail because they have unreasonable expectations.  

Sure in FSU you can attract someone younger and prettier than you expect to back home but TO A REASONABLE EXTENT !!!

Most guys involved in MOB have little or no idea of the type of woman they are looking for.  Take this simple test.  Take a sheet of paper and write a description the type of woman you are looking for.  There is a catch - you cannot say anything about how the woman looks....

How many sheets of paper can you fill - One??

Thanks for your comments, Les.

I'll start with your last question--I can fill more than one page  The most important things for me are personality and intelligence.  I also want to know about the girls relationship with her family and if she is optimistic.  Beauty is down on my list as # 4 or 5...

But I believe that when things intersect correctly, I can have all of those things.  And I'll take an 8 with personality over a 10 with looks and who is self-centered any day.

And in terms of the girl you think "scammed" me in the other post, I made it clear from the beginning that I thought she was lying and I was suspicious of her.  On purpose, I gave her those ball to swing at, and every opportunity to get a hit and not a strike out.  My expecations were not too high.  I am glad I was patient with her and will not look back someday and wish I had kept trying.

Yes, I think I can keep the "10" back in the states.  That is, if I have selected the correct "10."   A good mariage takes lots of attention and hard work, and I'll work even harder when I have only one girl and she is my full time job

Back to the topic--I agree that guys should have reasonable expectations.  We must keep our eyes open and be careful.  We must not "catch" the first fish that nibbles.  I think we go in with the idea of "dating" and just like at home--see what develops.  Enjoy the ride...

But can we find and marry an attractive FSU girl?  YES, I believe we can...

[andrewfi]

Michael ~ when you read your posts, how many of them deal with aspects of a woman, other than scamming or beauty?

I can help - almost none. It is the same for most of us. It is why most guys write to the same few women.

Whilst you may think you are looking for other things, your posts tell us a different story. You are not alone. It seems from the perspective of the guy sitting in front of this screen that the physical aspects are much more important than the personal.

When I read posts that do not talk of women on a numbered scale of beauty, when profiles do not have more pictures than words, when Americans stop saying they can get a more beautiful woman in the FSU than in their own country. When these things happen, I think we will be able to say that we value personality more than appearance. Till then, we includes you!

[Michelangelo]

Michael ~ when you read your posts, how many of them deal with aspects of a woman, other than scamming or beauty?

If you look at the fourth line in my post above, you'll read~

"But I believe that when things intersect correctly, I can have all of those things."

I was saying that my first choice is to have all of these things--personality, intelligence, and beauty.

I also said that if someone comes along before I find this perfect combination, then I would take her based upon her personality.

I have walked away from beauty.  And I will continue to do so.

But I think the direction this strand was going was to say that if a girl is pretty, she is out to scam you.  Not true, from my experience.

I'll also repeat my assertation that there are LOTS of pretty girls in the FSU.

But why are we talking about me?  I am one person with one story.  And I am still looking.  

Maybe the married guys here want to take up for their attractive wives by agreeing with me that not all pretty girls are scammers and that foreign guys do not get all the pretty girls?

[BC]

Just ran across this.. Some here may have seen this before:

http://www.russianmeetingplace.com/tests/healthscam/healthscamtest.html

nifty scam quiz

[andrewfi]

Michael ~ it is not just you, but whilst you give lip service, repeatedly, to other concepts, the one that you and many others come back to is physical appearance. What we often do is write, in the abstract, about personality traits, but when we write  in specifics we write about physical attributes. Given that what is being sold by agences is not personality, but physical attributes, most guys end up chasing the same women and those women have little need for most guys, apart from the benefit to their personal bottom line.

Even in your last post, justifying your position, it seems that words to do with beauty were the most used.

I do not think that attractive girls are all scammers. I do not think that what some/many of the top agency girls do is scamming. They just take advantage of their situation and do as attractive women who capitalise upon their appearance do everywhere. My point, shared with Les, is that becasue most men chase after the same women and do the same things, that it is not possible for all pareto girls to do everything themselves. The agency must do it on their behalf. That when you meet the girls, if you manage it, then they will be weighing their options to decide the best outcome for that week, weekend, or date. That is the same everywhere.

Frankly, I think that there would be more successful relationships if agencies did not publish photographs but instead relied, intially, upon a fuller written description, but that would remove most of the clients from the system and the business would fail in short order

Michale, there are attractive women here, but no more than anywhere else. There is no magic gene for beauty. It is just that agencies have young(ish) women as their stock in trade and their stock in trade makes itself available to you. You and the others would not be in Ukraine, or Russia if you could get it at home. You are seeking the BBD and thus you will probably lose more money, even if the reasoning is to give the girl enough rope to hang herself and take the one who passes your tests. NEWSFLASH - almost everyone will give into temptation when it is offered in a risk free package!

[Photo Guy]

I'm relatively new at this, so my opinion may change over time. Right now I think it is possible to find a UW, get to know her, fall in love, and live happily ever after, and that world will include her flaws and mine.

It all starts with appearances and the attraction of physical attributes. That's okay. I think Michael realizes that it is a mistake to place too much emphasis on physical attributes. A large percentage of guys need to learn that lesson, that truth. When you don't know a woman, all you have to go by is her appearance and maybe a few facts from her personal profile.

It can be a huge problem, if a guy can't branch out from there, to learning about the woman's personality and value system. People fall into repetitive behaviors, like choosing an abusive partner. How many guys consciously decide what characteristics are important? The earlier in life a person can realize what he or she is looking for in a partner, the better. If it is unknown, all that is required for attraction, is physical attributes. If that's the basis of a relationship, it obviously won't last.

I still think RW are different from AW. Some traits are worse. Some are better. The RW's pedestal is not any higher.

There ARE guys who are actually able to get involved with a local woman, but prefer RW. Maybe a particular RW is a more appropriate match than local women from the past. Maybe it is all about comparisons between individuals, rather than about comparing groups of women (AW, RW)

[Photo Guy]

NEWSFLASH - almost everyone will give into temptation when it is offered in a risk free package!

Sure, but are 'ethics' part of the puzzle?
If you can cheat or murder for material gain without any risks, then almost everyone will go ahead with it?

[andrewfi]

photoguy ~ be sensible. we are not discussing murder. we are discussing women accepting gifts they are offered and not always writing their mail. There are differences of degree and, after all, the POTUS does not write, or even see much, if not most of the communication sent out in his name.

[Journeyman]

Gentlemen,

I'd like to salute the several of you who have together composed one of the most erudite threads I've seen on any board since I started reading these things back in 2002.  

I just returned from a week of business travel to find this tread, now fully developed.  Perhaps I should stay away from the board more often.  You guys seem to churn out some pretty good stuff when I'm not looking.

My experience during 7 visits to the FSU since 2001 generally comports with what has been written.  I just hope that at least a few guys read it, and that you are not all just preaching to the choir.  

Journeyman

[jb]

I think it's interesting that we see yet another scam operation unfold on the the board.  Roll seems to have snapped wise just in the nick of time.  While the $5 per letter isn't a terribly large sum at first glance, let's take a look.  He said the rates were as follows:

-translation and printing of one letter - 5 USD

-scanning of one photo - 2 USD
-printing of one photo - 3 USD
-phone call translation - 5 USD 10 minutes.

At $5 USD per letter, that's $10 USD round trip, one letter supposedly translated from English to Russian, and one letter translated from Russian to English.  It would be pretty easy for such a scammer to generate one round trip communication per day.  So,,,, this scam might net to the scammer as much as $300.00 per month, throw in the odd picture and the price might go as high as $350.  Add the profit of having a few other lonely AM on the string, this becomes a real money machine and after awhile the scammer is having to hire employees to handle all the e-mails because he's making thousands of USD per month.  

The point of all this verbage is to illustrate that scamming is a cottage industry in some places.  I had not heard the name "Stanychno-Luhanske" until now, but it is not surprizing that these operations spread to new locations. Lugansk used to be the center for this kind of activity but I'll bet if you actually visited this little town you'd find folks living in squalid poverty. They are not stupid, they are just desperate, and desperate people will find ways of surviving.  

We often hear of scams and usually some pretty girl winds up with her picture listed on a scam site damning her as a bad person, odds are she has no knowledge that her photo was being used in a scam and no one gets the true story about the network of petty thieves and con artists who actually operate the scam behind the curtains.  I recall reading a comment attributed to a young man who'd gone to work for one of the letter mill MOB agencies.  He finally quit his job because he couldn't stand the boredom of sitting at a desk 10 hours a day writing love letters to lonely men in the USA.  

There are any number of MOB agencies who operate with exactly that business model, they charge $5.00 for letter translation, ($10.00 per round trip) and they could care less if any men actually ever make the trip to meet a woman, in fact they probably hope you never come.  If a man shows up they'll run in a woman for him to meet, he dates her a few times, usually with a paid translator, (more money) he gets frustrated, decides there's no chemistry and leaves.  He's disappointed, but doesn't realize he's been scammed, just thinks he's had bad luck in the love department.  It's a pretty slick operation.

I haven't heard anything about LTP in Tver in a long time, but they used to allow unlimited correspondence for a one time flat fee.  I'm sure there are other agencies which operate much the same way and that to me seems more reasonable, but to keep paying $5 a pop, piecemeal, is a sure way to get taken to the cleaners and wind up with no wife to show for the efforts.

This is one of the reasons I've held the MOB industry is such low regard all these years.  When we concocted the "Tablets of Stone" over on the RWG I was delighted to see one which said something to the effect that a man should get the agency out of the communication loop as quickly as possible.  It is a man's job to court a woman, not have some agency do it for him.  It's the woman's job, if she accepts the courtship, to dig down and buy a dictionary if needs be and do a little something to deserve the man's attention.  If a couple can't even at least do that together, they have no business getting married.  It's all just an exercise in stupidity.

[Leslie]

Jb,

Back in 2003 when I lived in NYC I was e-mailed by a stockbroker who worked at Chase.  He was involved with exactly the same kind of operation but based in Lughansk.  He had been writing 3-4 women, sometimes daily for over 3 months.  He had spent around $2000.  When I told him what was going on at first he did not believe me but when he came back to reality and realized he could have financed a trip with the money he had sent to "Fat Yuri".  He was very upset.  It was not the money,  it was the fact he had been so comprehensively conned.  Wisely he went back to dating local women his own age.

I have been to Lughansk JB,  It is a decrepit "rust belt" type of town.  Most of the soviet era heavy industry has closed, maybe a quarter of the population have no proper job.  There is real poverty here,  kids with rickets.  It is also run by the Donetsk mafia (Kuchma's mob) and the ONLY thing they have ever cared about is lining their own pockets.

This is organized crime where the victims are silent  I have NEVER heard of one of these rings being busted in Ukraine.  Some of the small scale scammers (individuals) are busted but these large scale internet fraudsters.  NOPE.  They are making tons of dosh and paying off the local officials.  The situation is almost as bad as in Beloruss where soon only the scamming agencies run by the local mafia will exist.  A couple of Western guys who were running agencies were recently deported there.  The official smokescreen is on "people traffiking"  truth is they were encroaching on a very lucrative buisness.....

Once you get serious with a women don't involve an agency in your communications.  PERIOD.

Agencies introduce people who ordinarily would never meet.  That's what you should use them for.  All the other agency services are just income generation.  No one can find you a wife you have to do that for yourself.

My wife wrote to me in Russian.  I replied in English.  We started to learn each others language in this way.  Difficult?  Yes.  Hard work? Yes.  But cross cultural relationships are NOT easy!  Begin the way in which you must continue for unless you are both prepared to work very hard you will fail. 

 

 

[Bruno]

My wife wrote to me in Russian.  I replied in English.  We started to learn each others language in this way.  Difficult?  Yes.  Hard work? Yes.  But cross cultural relationships are NOT easy!  Begin the way in which you must continue for unless you are both prepared to work very hard you will fail. 

I use the same system... not really a big deal since we use both free online translator... same system with chat... one day in Russian, the other in English... explorer with online translator near the chat windows...

 

 [/size][/font]

[andrewfi]

The software aspect of 'industrial scamming' is interesting. People in this part of the world are, for some reason, hugely inventive and I am certain there are specific packagaes for the production of scam communications. For myself, I am starting to use software for blogging that takes a single piece of text and then 'crunches' it by adding several predetermined variables text fragments, changing word and sentence order. Using this system, I can generate, from a piece of text of a couple of hundred words or so through the crunching variables, many different final texts, ones that unless you sat down and read each one, next to the other, would simply look like articles written by different people on the same subject. This kind of software goes well beyond form letters and would be ideal for scammy letters. I am sure the concept did not start with blog posts, but with people in the FSU who needed to generate many 'unique' letters from a single starting point.

[Bruno]

The software aspect of 'industrial scamming' is interesting. People in this part of the world are, for some reason, hugely inventive and I am certain there are specific packagaes for the production of scam communications.

I don't know if specific package for scammer exist... but on the internet, you have already online program who :

- make poetry based on a serie of words...

- make roman based on a form filled ...

- make love letter based on a form with select case...

A example of complain letter generator : http://www.pakin.org/complaint 

The concept have not start in FSU but in our western country... the first step was auto-reply e-mail from business... remember that time is money :cool:

Myself, i have use so system in May when i was in Ukraine for my site... in function of the title of e-mail, different text was send back... for a "men form", a english letter who explain how send photo... for a "women form", a russian letter who explain how to send photo... for a number with 5 string, a e-mail who thank for the photo... and all the other, a letter who explain that i am in holiday...

And when i am searching a FSU woman, i have a introduction letter that i send to everybody and a big text file with reply to some question... copy and paste is very easy... specialy when in the begin, you are communicate with 50-100 women... with time, when the selection is reduced to a few, i write all personaly...

Dating via internet is a number game... for write to a lot of women, specialy in the begin, you need some organisation... on the other side, i am sure that the RW make the same... this don't make them a scammer...