TR to Moscow

[possum]

Sculpto,

What you describe in your post sounds an awful lot like a religious experience to me.. I don't even know if you realize it or not but by coming out with a statement like that you're putting the rest of us in a impossible position.. Here you are claiming to be more enlightened than most people as a result of an 'epiphany', and I'm sitting here thinking there's nothing I can say from this point on to get my point across without sounding either ignorant or arrogant.. If I challenge your views, you're going to feel offended, and if I try to defend mine I'm going to feel stupid because I obviously haven't had the same kind of emotional experience that you have, and therefore I can't begin to approach some of these more complex subjects from the frame of reference of your 'epiphany'..

Did I just type all that?

[Sculpto]

Possum..
I don't easily get offended.. if I was going to be offended I would have a long time ago in this thread, or the other one.. but, I am a reasoned person and try to read what is valuable and learn from it.  If I feel someone is coming across in a way that is not constructive I will point it out and ask them to restate their opinion or idea in a way that is usefull, not only to myself but to anyone else who might read the thread in the future.

Now.. you mention that my epiphany sounds like a religious experience.  That would be an accurate observation on your part, yet, this religious experience was in no way connected to a religion or a doctrine.. the experience was spiritual in nature and life changing.  Simply by carefully observing a natural phenomena with an open mind I was able to deduce something much larger.  It wasn't as if I was stuck by lightening, simply I understood one of the deeper questions I had been searching to answer.  And, that also led to a whole new set of questions that remain unanswered.

Apparently I have made a comment that makes you uncomfortable to continue the debate.  I do not want to come off as being superior to anyone, on the contrary.  What I do wish to communicate is that I feel I have experienced something of an evolution from my previous ways of thinking and seeing the world.  I have come to believe that such an evolution is available to everyone and if others opened themselves to such a way of thinking then people could change the world to a much happier and more peaceful place free from poverty of mind, spirit and material.

Greed, ideology, religions, machismo are all factors that have led us to the current crossroads.  We are 6 and half billion now.  How many more of us can our spaceship support before it simply runs out of fuel?  How many more of us can we tolerate given our genetically programmed instincts to greed and machismo?  2012 is coming, the calender is running out, time for change is upon us.  This planet has all we need to support the 6 and half billion we are and another 6 and half billion if we eliminate the obstacles to human progress and human harmony.

I chose the song from the Clash for a reason.  If you follow all of my postings that are related to the topic at hand you will see there is a consistency to them.  You are welcome to be critical or to try and poke holes or even make fun of what I have said and will continue to say, but, the fact remains.. humanity is at a crossroad and the sooner we recognize it for what it really is and allow ourselves to evolve the better the chances are that we can not only survive it but come into a new Renaissance of humanity.  Now, wouldn't that be an awesome time to live?  Imagine how it must have been in Florence in 1500.. star gazers and artists and thinkers of all types opening their minds to amazing new discoveries that did result in making peoples lives better!  The 20th century was filled with all kinds of technological advances but religion and spirituality have remained stuck in the 10th century.  How are we to reconcile all that we can do with what is right and wrong?  Who gets to decide where to draw the line?  Why does there even have to be a line drawn?

You know.. going to art school in the 80's, in the midwest, put me in a position to question and challenge everything.  I can clearly remember over one summer at a dinner at one of my best freinds houses when his father went on a rant about the greatness of the USA.. the danger of the USSR and the need to immediiately invest in the Star Wars Defensive Missile Shield.  Y'all remember that.. from Uncle Ronaldo.. it was precisely at that moment I tried to leanr all I could about the USSR.  It was not an easy task in 1982 before the internet. 

But, at my Uni there was one Professor who had spent a year in Georgia.  No one had even heard of Georgia.. "isn't that where Atlanta is?".  But, he spoke of life in Georgia at that time as a life of Champagne and Chocolate and beautiful vistas and intelligent people.  It was precisely at that moment I stopped believing the propoganda of the "evil empire".  1982. 

OK, so now fast forward to three weeks ago.  There I am in the Moscow Metro and I keep seeing the images of Victory Day Parades with Brezhnev and the Generals on the Balcony and how scared of the evil communist empire we were taught to be.  yet, as I navigated the Moscow Metro in 2008 I was also keenly aware that the Moscow Metro was not so different in 1978.  My point is I found Muscovites to be polite, sophisticated, cultured, and rather socially evolved.  I used to look at those big apartment blocks and think.. how terrible.. what a miserable way to live.. then.. when I lived in one of them for ten days I thought.. how nice it is to know that when the miserable winter arrives my neighbors are close by and there are humans nearby to support each other.  Although it remains a boring style of architecture I now quite well understand the usefullness of such living arrangements.  And.. all that green space in between it actually rather nice.

OK, to finish off this rambling post.. and get back to the question of multi dimensional thinking.. lets use the earth itself as our guide.

The earth is round... we have divided it up into 360 degrees of longitude and latitude to help us explain where we are in relation to any given point on the earth.  Nevertheless, it remains a round, actually spherical, entity with infinite combinations of possible locations.  For every possible location there is the potential of an idea and for every idea there is a possible combination of 360 x 360 which ultimately leads to infinity and beyond because the very nature of the concept is self repeating.

Add into that the spiritual concept of Karma or the scientific concept that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and you can begin to grasp what the hell I am talking about. 

Or, you could just go to certain places in Mexico and eat the wild mushrooms that grow there and with enough concentration bits and pieces of stellar knowledge will make themselves apparent to you.

http://deoxy.org/mckenna.htm

http://www.stainblue.com/maria.html

http://www.survive2012.com/

http://www.greatdreams.com/2012.htm

[possum]

But, at my Uni there was one Professor who had spent a year in Georgia.  No one had even heard of Georgia.. "isn't that where Atlanta is?".  But, he spoke of life in Georgia at that time as a life of Champagne and Chocolate and beautiful vistas and intelligent people.  It was precisely at that moment I stopped believing the propoganda of the "evil empire".  1982. 

IMO, Georgia was the least soviet nation in the Soviet Union in the same way that Moscow is the least Russian city in Russia today.. I find it odd that would pick those two places to make your point about how mistaken everybody else is about life in Russia.. Of course, you have to take any propaganda with a grain of salt because chances are they're not telling you everything that doesn't mean, however, that none of it has any basis in reality.. They may not have shown you all the beautiful women we've got here but they showed you babushkas!. Babushkas are real.. I have a babushka so I know of which I speak.. a babushka that lives in one of those ugly concrete apartment buildings where nobody gives a crap about the person next door.. Where is this community spirit you claim to have experienced in Moscow?.

It is true that we had champagne and chocolate and Pepsi and Marlboro cigarettes in the SU, and I've got pictures to prove it here somewhere.. But we also had everything you saw in the propaganda movies.. We had beautiful women like my mother and then we had potato growing babushkas like my grandma..

Or, you could just go to certain places in Mexico and eat the wild mushrooms that grow there and with enough concentration bits and pieces of stellar knowledge will make themselves apparent to you.

http://deoxy.org/mckenna.htm

http://www.stainblue.com/maria.html

http://www.survive2012.com/

http://www.greatdreams.com/2012.htm

I don't believe mind altering substances are the way to go, no matter how appealing they might seem.. I've never taken drugs in my life.. But as far as the whole Karma concept goes, aside from the fact that it's alien to me, I don't see how you can apply the laws of Physics to the realm of the spiritual.. There's no evidence that it's governed by the same type laws the physical universe is subject to.

[Faux Pas]

Sculpto,

What you describe in your post sounds an awful lot like a religious experience to me.. I don't even know if you realize it or not but by coming out with a statement like that you're putting the rest of us in a impossible position.. Here you are claiming to be more enlightened than most people as a result of an 'epiphany', and I'm sitting here thinking there's nothing I can say from this point on to get my point across without sounding either ignorant or arrogant.. If I challenge your views, you're going to feel offended, and if I try to defend mine I'm going to feel stupid because I obviously haven't had the same kind of emotional experience that you have, and therefore I can't begin to approach some of these more complex subjects from the frame of reference of your 'epiphany'..

Did I just type all that?

Possum, you have effectively handed Sculpto his hat with a dismissal in this debate. His post previous to this one is full of ad hominem, red herring and epiphanies which in any debate is the waving of the white flag. He clearly lost his way and topic. I and somewhat puzzled though that he continues with the enlightenment jibberish. Perhaps those cow patty mushrooms in southern Mexico lead to delusions as well? 

[Misha]

But, at my Uni there was one Professor who had spent a year in Georgia.  No one had even heard of Georgia.. "isn't that where Atlanta is?".  But, he spoke of life in Georgia at that time as a life of Champagne and Chocolate and beautiful vistas and intelligent people.  It was precisely at that moment I stopped believing the propoganda of the "evil empire".  1982.

Sculpto,

1982 was the last year of Brezhnev's reign before he died and 3 years before Gorbachev. Do you really think they would have let a foreigner waltz around Georgia unsupervised? Do you really think that the intelligent people that he met would have told him the truth as they were likely being watched? More than likely one or two of the intelligent people he met would have been undercover KGB operatives.

[possum]

Possum, you have effectively handed Sculpto his hat with a dismissal in this debate. His post previous to this one is full of ad hominem, red herring and epiphanies which in any debate is the waving of the white flag. He clearly lost his way and topic. I and somewhat puzzled though that he continues with the enlightenment jibberish. Perhaps those cow patty mushrooms in southern Mexico lead to delusions as well? 

You know, this reminds me of some of the religious discussions I've read and participated in in the past with members of different Christian denominations, in that you could have a rational argument with any one of them except the Mormons.. because when it comes to the Mormons, all logic and critical thinking goes right out the window.. You can talk to them about family values, politics, things of that nature.. but when it comes to their doctrine, their only 'defense' is along the lines of I know I'm right because I just know it.. I have a strong feeling that I'm right about these things..

[Sculpto]

Sculpto,

1982 was the last year of Brezhnev's reign before he died and 3 years before Gorbachev. Do you really think they would have let a foreigner waltz around Georgia unsupervised? Do you really think that the intelligent people that he met would have told him the truth as they were likely being watched? More than likely one or two of the intelligent people he met would have been undercover KGB operatives.

The Prof I refer to was in Georgia in the late 70's on some sort of exchange.  He was also Gay so I suspect whoever it was he was visiting was also Gay which would lead one to suspect his contacts were mostly underground in one way or another.  This conversation took place a long time ago, I do not remember all the details.

[Sculpto]

IMO, Georgia was the least soviet nation in the Soviet Union in the same way that Moscow is the least Russian city in Russia today.. I find it odd that would pick those two places to make your point about how mistaken everybody else is about life in Russia.. Of course, you have to take any propaganda with a grain of salt because chances are they're not telling you everything that doesn't mean, however, that none of it has any basis in reality.. They may not have shown you all the beautiful women we've got here but they showed you babushkas!. Babushkas are real.. I have a babushka so I know of which I speak.. a babushka that lives in one of those ugly concrete apartment buildings where nobody gives a crap about the person next door.. Where is this community spirit you claim to have experienced in Moscow?.

Don't misunderstand me.  I am not glorifying the SU.  What i am doing is recognizing that things during that time were not as portrayed by the western media.

I would lalso say that living for one week on that apartment reminded me a lot of when I was a kid in New York and we lived in a red brick apartment block.  Babushkas and families hung around ont he benches and playgrounds.. Moms came home with groceries from the neighborhood store.. that lifestyle was not typical of what most Americans experience, yet, being a young child in those circumstances has stayed with me my whole life and is probably why I have never been comfortable living in suburbs.

It is true that we had champagne and chocolate and Pepsi and Marlboro cigarettes in the SU, and I've got pictures to prove it here somewhere.. But we also had everything you saw in the propaganda movies.. We had beautiful women like my mother and then we had potato growing babushkas like my grandma..

So you in fact prove my point.  Life in the SU was not exactly, or even nearly what is was portrayed as by the propogandists in the USA at the time.

I don't believe mind altering substances are the way to go, no matter how appealing they might seem.. I've never taken drugs in my life.. But as far as the whole Karma concept goes, aside from the fact that it's alien to me, I don't see how you can apply the laws of Physics to the realm of the spiritual.. There's no evidence that it's governed by the same type laws the physical universe is subject to.

Mushrooms are not a drug.. they are mushrooms.    Karma is a spiritual explanation for a law of physics.  how can spiritual concerns NOT be governed by the laws of physics?  Unless you believe in magic they are in fact regulated by the same set of understood and as yet undiscovered laws of physics.

[Sculpto]

I don't believe mind altering substances are the way to go, no matter how appealing they might seem.. I've never taken drugs in my life.. But as far as the whole Karma concept goes, aside from the fact that it's alien to me, I don't see how you can apply the laws of Physics to the realm of the spiritual.. There's no evidence that it's governed by the same type laws the physical universe is subject to.

BTW.. if you have never had a mind altering experience what qualifies you to say one way or the other if there is any merit?  I prefer to defer to the wisdom is shamanic teachers who have the benefit of thousands of years of accumulated knowledge as well as my own experience.

[Sculpto]

Possum, you have effectively handed Sculpto his hat with a dismissal in this debate. His post previous to this one is full of ad hominem, red herring and epiphanies which in any debate is the waving of the white flag. He clearly lost his way and topic. I and somewhat puzzled though that he continues with the enlightenment jibberish. Perhaps those cow patty mushrooms in southern Mexico lead to delusions as well? 

LOL.. nice.. again without having any personal experience of your own to refer to why are you so quick to criticize?  perhaps it is your lack of ability to visualize deeper than the tip of your own nose that causes you to dismiss an esoteric topic that asks more questions than it answers? 

[Sculpto]

You know, this reminds me of some of the religious discussions I've read and participated in in the past with members of different Christian denominations, in that you could have a rational argument with any one of them except the Mormons.. because when it comes to the Mormons, all logic and critical thinking goes right out the window.. You can talk to them about family values, politics, things of that nature.. but when it comes to their doctrine, their only 'defense' is along the lines of I know I'm right because I just know it.. I have a strong feeling that I'm right about these things..

By going in this direction Possum you still fall into the trap of one dimensional thinking.  You do not account for what can not be explained nor the infinite combinations of possibilities.  And, you fundamentally do not acknowledge that I am open to being proven wrong.  I am not reciting doctrine, I am relating experiences and knowledge of which you have not had, but, instead of doing any creative thinking you have retreated into the safe and comfortable. 

[possum]

Mushrooms are not a drug.. they are mushrooms.    Karma is a spiritual explanation for a law of physics.  how can spiritual concerns NOT be governed by the laws of physics?  Unless you believe in magic they are in fact regulated by the same set of understood and as yet undiscovered laws of physics.

The kind of mushrooms you're talking about are mind-altering substances, and as a great man once said, a mind that alters, alters all.. It's impossible to achieve anything but delusion by taking mind-altering substances.. Maybe that's why it's so hard for some people to understand that the world of the spiritual doesn't have to be an extension of the physical universe and that it can, in fact, have a separate existence with it's own set of regulations..

[Faux Pas]

You know, this reminds me of some of the religious discussions I've read and participated in in the past with members of different Christian denominations, in that you could have a rational argument with any one of them except the Mormons.. because when it comes to the Mormons, all logic and critical thinking goes right out the window.. You can talk to them about family values, politics, things of that nature.. but when it comes to their doctrine, their only 'defense' is along the lines of I know I'm right because I just know it.. I have a strong feeling that I'm right about these things..

I agree. One cannot discuss and debate logic rationally with one from an irrational position. One eats a magic mushroom, swims in the ocean off Mexico and discovering the meaning of life isn't very rational. Nor does it provide any substance to his position.

Well he started the debate logically enough from his position of attacking the right wing ideology but failed to provide any proof that he was right or you were wrong. Rambling on of the multidimensional thinking and him being enlightened states no fact.

[Sculpto]

The kind of mushrooms you're talking about are mind-altering substances, and as a great man once said, a mind that alters, alters all.. It's impossible to achieve anything but delusion by taking mind-altering substances.. Maybe that's why it's so hard for some people to understand that the world of the spiritual doesn't have to be an extension of the physical universe and that it can, in fact, have a separate existence with it's own set of regulations..

So would you consider a Bhuddist monk who is capable of releasing the same levels of serotonin in his mind through intense meditation delusional?

[Faux Pas]

LOL.. nice.. again without having any personal experience of your own to refer to why are you so quick to criticize?  perhaps it is your lack of ability to visualize deeper than the tip of your own nose that causes you to dismiss an esoteric topic that asks more questions than it answers? 

And what pray tell would lead you to believe I have no experiences of my own? LOL Because when I smoked a fatty or ate some schroons I didn't have an epiphany and discover the holy grail? Claim multidimensional thinking, enlightenment and the answers to all the worlds problems?

I'm not criticising you Sculpto but pointing out the absurdity of your claim. You appear to have had a personal experience of some kind related to hallucinogenics and can't separate the fantasy from the reality. The point of my post was, the intelligent young man from Tomsk debated you on your topics and handed your hat to you. You should congratulate him or at the very least, thank him for the lesson.

[Misha]

The Prof I refer to was in Georgia in the late 70's on some sort of exchange.  He was also Gay so I suspect whoever it was he was visiting was also Gay which would lead one to suspect his contacts were mostly underground in one way or another.  This conversation took place a long time ago, I do not remember all the details.

Well a few things. There really wasn't much of an "underground" in the late 1970's. There were some underground publications and dissenters, but they were likely to arrested or put into psychiatric hospitals if discovered. This alone would have kept them far away from foreigners just happening to visit the Soviet Union. Meeting a foreigner if you were an "underground" dissenter in the Soviet Union would be like deer wearing a bulls eye over their heart during hunting season 

Also, let me guess, your professor friend was an ardent Marxist in the Soviet Union. He of course had an agenda before leaving: he wanted to witness the Communist Utopia for himself. As such, he would have been willing to believe what was presented to him on his carefully managed (by the KGB) trip.

[possum]

So would you consider a Bhuddist monk who is capable of releasing the same levels of serotonin in his mind through intense meditation delusional?

Raising the serotonin levels is just one way in which mind-altering substance affect your body.. but to answer your question, yes, intense meditation can lead to all sorts of delusion and dissociative disorders.. No sane person would ever meditate the way those monks do..

[Sculpto]

I agree. One cannot discuss and debate logic rationally with one from an irrational position. One eats a magic mushroom, swims in the ocean off Mexico and discovering the meaning of life isn't very rational. Nor does it provide any substance to his position.

Well he started the debate logically enough from his position of attacking the right wing ideology but failed to provide any proof that he was right or you were wrong. Rambling on of the multidimensional thinking and him being enlightened states no fact.

And yet what I am trying to demonstrate is linear one dimensional thinking will never provide real answers to multi dimensional problems.  And again, Faux, your limited knowledge provides you with no substance to your position.  it would be like you trying to tell me coffee tastes bad even though you never tasted coffee.  You also have not read my words correctly as I never said I had mushrooms and then went swimming in the reefs.. don't try and distort what happened.  I never indicated if I had mushroom experiences before or after the reef.  

This debate changed topic when Possum asked me to explain what I meant by one dimensional thinking.  I have explained an exceptionally esoteric and nebulus topic the best I can and you have chosen to attack that very explanation because it is obviously something you are not capable of understanding.  If you don't want to eat a mushroom I suggest finding a breath work practitioner in your area who will be able to guide you into a similiar state without the use of the mushroom.  

[possum]

BTW, Faux Pas.. love your avatar!.

[Misha]

Raising the serotonin levels is just one way in which mind-altering substance affect your body.. but to answer your question, yes, intense meditation can lead to all sorts of delusion and dissociative disorders.. No sane person would ever meditate the way those monks do..

It is a combination of meditation (involving repetitive rhythmic sounds such as chants mimicking a heartbeat), fatigue and hunger that invariable produce an "altered" state.

[Sculpto]

Raising the serotonin levels is just one way in which mind-altering substance affect your body.. but to answer your question, yes, intense meditation can lead to all sorts of delusion and dissociative disorders.. No sane person would ever meditate the way those monks do..

HAHAHAHAHA!  Now you are qualified to define what sane people should or should not do?  come on now Possum.. I suppose you are a PHD in Psychology?  

So, what I see is you define anyone who has a different way of viewing the world than you do as either insane or delusional or with some sort of dissociative disorder.  And yet you can not understand why I have said you are limited by one dimensional thinking.  

[possum]

It is a combination of meditation (involving repetitive rhythmic sounds such as chants mimicking a heartbeat), fatigue and hunger that invariable produce an "altered" state.

Well, yeah.. they starve themselves into that state of mind..

[Diplomacy]

Be careful On Obama he did get a congratulations from Iran.  In his speech he clearly stated that Iran and the development in Nukes is not going to be tolerated.  He said that when dealing with Iran the reply to the congratulations was not to be made in haste.

Not the words of someone that is looking to have Tea and Crumpets with them.  If anything he sent a very strong message to the opposite side of the debate.

[Misha]

Well, yeah.. they starve themselves into that state of mind..

In a sense yes. Similar states can be achieve when very sick and you are running a high fever whereby you will see hallucinations.

[possum]

HAHAHAHAHA!  Now you are qualified to define what sane people should or should not do?  come on now Possum.. I suppose you are a PHD in Psychology?   

So, what I see is you define anyone who has a different way of viewing the world than you do as either insane or delusional or with some sort of dissociative disorder.  And yet you can not understand why I have said you are limited by one dimensional thinking. 

Having a dissociative disorder is a little different than having a different view of the world, don't you think?. You can believe that the Earth is 4-dimensional, but if you've come to that conclusion after years of altering your mind through different techniques and substances, then odds are you are clinically delusional.. I don't mean you, of course, but there are people like that out there..