Wife split!

[Faux Pas]

The side track thread of the side track got side tracked.

Russiagirl makes some good points albeit with some very fuzzy math. Obviously designed to back her claim. The fact is, this particular pursuit is littered with victims on both sides of the ocean, male and female. The argument of "these victims have it worse because they are female or Russian" or "these have it worse because they are men and were arrested and lost half of their property" doesn't wash.

Nobody has yet provided any statistical data thats believable and could be consumed to make a valid defense for either side. Dan's data states 41% of international marriages end in divorce which is less than the average divorce rate for industrialized nations. I would have thought it would be higher.

The fact is that there are keyboard romeos, one week wonders and sex tourist. There are also scammers, GCG's and pro daters. The victims they leave in their wake are many and most on this particular forum abhor that kind of behavior. There are also some sick individuals who find pleasure in toying with the emotions of others. In any event the victims need help, support and guidance whether from the east or the west, male or female. The problem as I see it should be approached from the victim standpoint and not gender or location. Victims are victims.

This isn't the only aspect of life where people are used, abused and tossed aside. Much of that responsibility falls on the victim themselves but, that is little solice after the fact. IMO

[HiTech]

This is a post from a man on Visa Journey. I post it only to back up the point that you can never make some one love you.

Hi All,
I would like some ideas from the VJ audience. I can make the decisions but I am curious as to what others would do in my situation. My fiancé is here in the United States (New Jersey) with me and her K-1 expires December 6th. We rushed the K-1 filing before letting our relationship develop. So when she arrived, we really did not know each other well. Things started out okay but have gone downhill since. In short, I feel like I have a roommate in my house and not someone who is falling in love with me, or if she is, she has a strange way of showing it. There is little affection and we sleep in separate rooms. We both have never married and are both inexperienced in relationships. We both have lived alone before now. We have had arguments but never anything violent and no yelling. I have been very clear that I want a serious relationship and marriage whereas she has not. She comes from eastern Ukraine and is paranoid about trust (which I am told is a common mentality there?). She has difficulty trusting anyone including me. So her big obstacle to opening up to me is trust, in my opinion. In any case, I am planning the marriage but I have her plane ticket to return home also if we don’t marry. My hope is she has a change of heart and warms up to me before she has to leave but it seems only a miracle can make that happen. So I am contemplating marrying her and hoping it works out. That seems our only option if we need more time together, short of her going home and re-applying for a K-1, etc.

Does anyone know someone who has married to satisfy the K-1 visa but shortly after divorced?

Please no wise remarks or clichés like “if it was meant to be, it will be”

Thanks

How the story ended.

I just had a chat with the OP, and his SOs plane is due to leave tomorrow. Best guess is she won't be on it. He reports that she has spent the last several weeks "with a friend" and was coming back last night. She did come back - with a Russian guy in a car with NY plates. She collected her things, told our gentle OP that she would see him at the airport, then left. And now you know the rest of the story.

As to russiangirls argument, it has one very big flaw in that she is taking every type of hurt a RW can experiance, and only assuming one type of hurt (GCG) for men. How many women decide part way into the k1 process that they can not move? How many women hide there true self on the first meetings with men? How many pro daters are there?
 
HiTech

[Wayne]

Getting back to my story, wife's women friends who came to America all followed the same pattern, except one.  There was on women who is related to daughter, but not wife, who came here and married an AM.  He died in an accident.  She and her child did return to Russia right away.  Again, this was not wife's friend.

Wife has another friend, M.  A few years ago, M was involved with a doctor.  He called me several times and we spoke for an hour or more each time.  Shortly before the K-1 interview in Moscow, M just disapeared.  I found out much later, thru wife, that M had married a man from Italy and shortly later, they were divorced.  M has a much younger brother.  There was a lot of problems with M's mother and M adopted her brother.  She needed to be married to suit that purpose, then dumped the guy.

Now fast forward to this last Spring.  Shortly after wife arrived, I learn than M is involved with another AM.  So they have the guy phone me and we talked.  I suggested that he ask M about her past.  Anyway, the AM went to Russia to meet M.  Wife had a set-up on the computer where you can talk and see each other, so I saw the AM with M while he was in Russia. Turns out, the AM proposed to M after only one day.  They filled the K-1 and now a K-2 for the brother.  Now I assume an adopted brother would work the same as a child with the K-2. 

Now, what advise would you guys give to this next AM?

The story of the guy on visajourney is quite a lot like mine.  Although it looks like this guy got of easy.  The woman probably had the Russian boyfriend lined up from the start.

Wife still has the apartment, furniture, etc. in Russia and the utilities are paid two years in advance.  But I don't think whe will ever go back!  So I hope she finds a job and is able to support herself and daughter.  I dont' want bad things to happen to them.  On the other hand, what was so terrible about living with me?  I certainly loved wife very much!  We have a very nice home in a desireable area.  Grand Traverse Bay sits directly in front of the house.  We have a beautiful spa and sauna.  We always had plenty of food and everything one needs.  All that wife had to do was be a wife! 

[groovlstk]

HT, not to sidetrack the intent of your post, but this is the sort of self-deception that I see again and again, and it's really sad but it's his own damn fault.

In short, I feel like I have a roommate in my house and not someone who is falling in love with me, or if she is, she has a strange way of showing it. There is little affection and we sleep in separate rooms. We both have never married and are both inexperienced in relationships.

She comes from eastern Ukraine and is paranoid about trust (which I am told is a common mentality there?).

[OlgaH]

Much of that responsibility falls on the victim themselves but, that is little solice after the fact. IMO

Yeah...May be you are right...  Wayne and a man Avi, who lost everything due to false accusation in DV, are much responsible for their hope, trust and naivety  than the women who betrayed them . Probably they have read too many stories with happy ends, when other men after a few months of phone conversation and a few meetings and sometimes only one are happily married. If they read such stories that are similar to their  and were a little bit paranoid most likely they would think twice and were more provident before taking a serious decision.

And a lonely Russian woman with a child also much responsible for her trust to a man who was so nice and kind to her and her child during their meetings in Russia, and after he turned into a controlling despot. She also read to many stories with happy ends.

BTW, if you are infected with AIDS in a dentist chair you are also much responsible for it, because you put too much trust in the dentist's responsibility     

[groovlstk]

Now, what advise would you guys give to this next AM?

He should sign up for a Bottle King discount card and start stocking up on Cutty Sark.

On the other hand, what was so terrible about living with me?  I certainly loved wife very much!  We have a very nice home in a desireable area.  Grand Traverse Bay sits directly in front of the house.  We have a beautiful spa and sauna.  We always had plenty of food and everything one needs.  All that wife had to do was be a wife! 

Wayne, you can be the nicest guy in the world, but there are a million reasons why she would want to have her own life. First and foremost, assuming she's healthy mentally, she probably wants to live with someone she loves and feels passionate about. It's not a knock against you personally, we've all been there, it's chemistry.

[kievstar]

Wayne, you have a nice life for what you are interested in but you have mentioned your wife wants to work and it is easier for her in New York to get a license.  She also does not like art but you do. She also likes Russian tv but you do not learn Russian language so you can watch with her.   I would encourage you to see a marriage counselor. 

When I got divorced in Michigan, Cheri and I had to go to marriage classes for several months before a judge would grant divorce.  I think you need this as you will never have closure.  Would not hurt if you and your ex talked with a professional.  You may need a lawyer to arrange this. 

[Sculpto]

A lot of discussion has taken place regardng the assertions made by Russiangirl.  It is true she has not been able to provide us with hard numbers regarding the actual number of women who have been duped by western men, however, I am quite sure there is no one actually counting women who were seduced by a sex tourist, lied to about a K1 to get sex, or who actually come here and end up married to a control freak but never speak up about it and just grin and bear it.

ok, here it comes.. HOWEVER!

What i am going to explain is purely anecdotal.. I do not have any statistics to back it up, but, what i am going to say comes from a very reliable source.

A reputation has evolved that a lot of western men go east ONLY for sex vacations.  Western Men in Moscow are thought to spend time and money in stripper clubs and with prostitutes or getting loudly drunk and making fools of themselves.  Socials are considered a joke and the WORST place to find a good man.  One of the reasons there are so many very young ladies on agency sites now is the older ones have gotten wise to the game played by agencies and also are sick of insincere men who act like they are on a shopping trip to buy a wife. 

Riga is a mess.  There is a group of women in Kiev protesting against sex tourism.  By now EVERYONE knows someone who has married a WM.  What "her" friend reports back becomes gospel. 

One bad guy does a lot more harm to all of us than one bad girl does.  The "Ukrianian telegraph" is just as fast as the internet and a lot more believable. 

All of what I have said is not meant to diminish the pain that Maxx or Wayne or any other victim of a GCG has gone through.  It is meant to illustrate that things are not one sided and it is really not fair to discuss GCG and other FSU scams without discussing the risks the ladies take.  I can not help thinking about poor Nina Reiser.  No matter how bad Wayne and Maxx got it.. Nina got it much much worse.. and imagine her poor kids.

[Misha]

Turns out, the AM proposed to M after only one day.  

Now, what advise would you guys give to this next AM?

Don't be idiots, don't marry women you do not know.

Wayne, you still did not answer my question: how well did you know your wife before you married? Your silence leads me to conclude that you did not know her at all. Most likely you spent a few weeks with her at best over the four years. Right?

On the other hand, what was so terrible about living with me?  I certainly loved wife very much!  We have a very nice home in a desireable area.  Grand Traverse Bay sits directly in front of the house.  We have a beautiful spa and sauna.  We always had plenty of food and everything one needs.  All that wife had to do was be a wife! 

Wayne, she did not love you. Here is my advice: find a woman who will love YOU, not your house, not your spa and sauna, not your food in the pantry, but YOU. Get to know her first and only when you know her and know for sure that she loves YOU, then enter into a committed relationship.

[Maxx2]

Wayne, you can be the nicest guy in the world, but there are a million reasons why she would want to have her own life. First and foremost, assuming she's healthy mentally, she probably wants to live with someone she loves and feels passionate about. It's not a knock against you personally, we've all been there, it's chemistry.

Well DAMN IT! she should not have agreed to marry Wayne if she had no "chemistry" with him.

As far as me being obsessed on this subject. I can see why you have this perception of me. You people only see me when I post on this board. I stay mostly on this subject because it is the only thing I have a comprehensive knowledge of. Most of my time maybe 99% or more is being involved with other concerns and interests. I get called in to participate in these discussions. Many times I see a situation where I can do something to help. Often times I pass this by. I just do not have the time.

In regard to me being unbalanced. That is not presenting the sides of abused immigrant women. This is true, I let the multitude of others do that. I try to balance this issue by pointing out the fraud done by immigrants to US citizens. This is not just a male US citizen verses a female immigrant issue either. Many times American women are used by GC Guys. I get contacted by these women as well.




Elena, used and thrown away ("I want a divorce") by her immigrant husband
on the night of their two year anniversary. He admitted to Elena that he never
had any chemistry with her. That he married her for a "practicality", a green card. 

I imagine some of you people will say she deserved to be defrauded. 


Here is some stats I have been able to find on the number of abuse petitions filed by immigrants.

2002   5922

2003   6700

2004   6800

2005   8300

2006   9500

Nothing for 2007 or 2008

You can see it's more than just a few like Russiangirl has suggested.
IMO it is a heavily laid mine field.

[groovlstk]

All of what I have said is not meant to diminish the pain that Maxx or Wayne or any other victim of a GCG has gone through.  It is meant to illustrate that things are not one sided and it is really not fair to discuss GCG and other FSU scams without discussing the risks the ladies take.  I can not help thinking about poor Nina Reiser.  No matter how bad Wayne and Maxx got it.. Nina got it much much worse.. and imagine her poor kids.

These things are discussed here, and often. There have been quite a few men who came here complaining that their newly-arrived fiancee was not what they expected - Right GoUSA? - either she isn't grateful enough, has a bad temper, etc., and in general the membership here has acted appropriately and doled out sympathy and understanding or told the guy to get stuffed and buy a dog. (I really admire KenC for this, some of you may may think his words can be rough but if a man misbehaves, he doesn't have the slightest hesitation in poking him in the chest.)

Every time one of these stories crops up, be the poster male or female, zealots on either side of the equation use it as an opportunity to gleefully point to the OP's misfortune as some sort of karmic payback for wrinkled old sex tourists or Green Card Girls. (And to be fair, posters like myself use it as a teaching opportunity, which is only marginally more humane given that the OP is usually coming here for solace.)

This is Wayne's thread and even if it has veered wildly off course, I think it's political correctness and nothing more to temper any sympathy by constantly mentioning "well, too bad for Wayne but poor Nina Reiser had it worse."

[Maxx2]

I think it's political correctness and nothing more to temper any sympathy by constantly mentioning "well, too bad for Wayne but poor Nina Reiser had it worse."

That is good stuff.

[Wayne]

Ok, armchair psycholigists, they say a photograph is worth a 1000 words.

[Maxx2]

Ok, armchair psycholigists, they say a photograph is worth a 1000 words.

I could see why you think you were looks compatable. Your older and she's no Hot Russian Babe.     

[Sculpto]

This is Wayne's thread and even if it has veered wildly off course, I think it's political correctness and nothing more to temper any sympathy by constantly mentioning "well, too bad for Wayne but poor Nina Reiser had it worse."

I am not trying to temper sympathy Groov.  I just want people to see things in perspective of the overall picture.  In this forum we mostly hear about men who have suffered at the hands of scammers or GCGs but I haven't seen a thread anywhere about Nina Reiser.  And, if you take a look on the different romance scam forums there tend to be a lot more women who have been scammed than men.  We are a subgroup and a fairly small one at that.

Before he admitted to killing her imagine if Hans had come here and complained about his rotten wife who just disappeared with green card in hand.  Hans was a pretty smart guy and a darn good liar.  You think we might not have had sympathy for him?

The above statement should not be read between any lines.  I am not implying ANYTHING about Wayne or Maxx or anyone else.  There is no political correctness by bringing up Nina Reiser in this context.  What happened to that family is truly tragic and the loss suffered by a lot of people dwarfs anything that any men have suffered at the hands of the GCG simply because even though broken hearted, poor and possibly subjected to ridiculous police problems, they are still alive.  The consequences of Hans Reiser's action have a whole lifetime to continue causing problems because there are kids involved and their Mom is dead and Father in jail for life for killing her.  Imagine growing up with that over your head.  So, please tell me how that is political correctness?

[William3rd]

I am not trying to temper sympathy Groov.  I just want people to see things in perspective of the overall picture.  In this forum we mostly hear about men who have suffered at the hands of scammers or GCGs but I haven't seen a thread anywhere about Nina Reiser.  And, if you take a look on the different romance scam forums there tend to be a lot more women who have been scammed than men.  We are a subgroup and a fairly small one at that.

Before he admitted to killing her imagine if Hans had come here and complained about his rotten wife who just disappeared with green card in hand.  Hans was a pretty smart guy and a darn good liar.  You think we might not have had sympathy for him?

The above statement should not be read between any lines.  I am not implying ANYTHING about Wayne or Maxx or anyone else.  There is no political correctness by bringing up Nina Reiser in this context.  What happened to that family is truly tragic and the loss suffered by a lot of people dwarfs anything that any men have suffered at the hands of the GCG simply because even though broken hearted, poor and possibly subjected to ridiculous police problems, they are still alive.  The consequences of Hans Reiser's action have a whole lifetime to continue causing problems because there are kids involved and their Mom is dead and Father in jail for life for killing her.  Imagine growing up with that over your head.  So, please tell me how that is political correctness?

Why dont you post your own thread for the Nina Reiser Memorial and quit muddying the discussion here?

You are off topic and talking about apples and oranges.

Hope you are donating alot of long green for those poor orphans since you claim to care about them so much on this board. . . .

[AnastassiaAsh]

I could see why you think you were looks compatable. Your older and she's no Hot Russian Babe.     

Yeah, and even looks aside, I can't see anything common between these two, I am trying hard to use my imagination and can't do it.  She doesn't look Russian really either, Uzbek, Tatar or something like that?

[BC]

This is how it all starts:

As you know this is a great country and I am looking to help someone out with residency to the US...

This is how it ends:

On the other hand, what was so terrible about living with me?  I certainly loved wife very much!  We have a very nice home in a desireable area.  Grand Traverse Bay sits directly in front of the house.  We have a beautiful spa and sauna.  We always had plenty of food and everything one needs.  All that wife had to do was be a wife! 

I'm not knocking either of the authors, but it's what I see between the lines time and time again when GCG stories are traded.

Barter gone bad..

[Turboguy]

I don't know about anything in common but I certainly don't see them as a mismatch.   Wayne is a nice looking guy with a great smile and she is attractive, maybe not someone who would appear on the front page of HRB but nice looking.  

To me if you just went by appearances they are a good couple.  Of course a good relationship takes more than matched appearances and something was lacking on one part at least.  

[Wayne]

Yes, she grew up in Uzbekistan.

[Wayne]

Wife's smile is much better since her teeth were fixed.

[Jooky]

Wayne,

Why did your wife put you in contact with her friend M's suitors? That strikes me as very odd.

[BC]

Wayne,

Why did your wife put you in contact with her friend M's suitors? That strikes me as very odd.

I found the live in student angle quite odd.

[Misha]

I could see why you think you were looks compatable. Your older and she's no Hot Russian Babe.     

Again, does not matter unless SHE thinks that WAYNE is compatible and attractive.

[Doll]

when people are willing to be open-minded, apply critical thinking skills,

I do.
I do as I know what RG is talking about and I do agree 100%