Why does she need an escape plan if you're such a nice guy?

[ScottinCrimea]

If you read my posts earlier, you would know why. 

I did and I don't.

[catzenmouse]

Groov,

 I've not read the entire thread but noticed a new thread started by you (who are one of the few here who I keep an eye out for) and all I can really say is "Wow! Nailed it on the head."

 Here is a small example from an OMB: Recently I've been stuck with 60+ hour weeks (which are not enough to do what needs to be done) so I'm working evenings and weekends, not sleeping well, and am rather cranky. Elena asked me today if I wanted her to leave and thought something was wrong with us. This is after almost 4 years of marriage. Nothing could be farther from the truth and we talked about it but the point is that even after time together when a situation arises that you haven't been through before together things will come up and doubts can arise from this.

 If you (the man) do this international relationship thing you better be on your toes and pay attention. This is not a "be good and patient" for 6 months or a year and it will all be better. This is for life! YOUR whole life.

FWIW
 Ken

[Enot]

I did and I don't.

My point is, you never know anyone even though you think you do.  People are constantly changing.  If you have spent any quality time with FSU women, you would know that many marry without love and think they can learn to love someone.  Therefore my second point, it is more important to know if someone loves and respects you.

[ScottinCrimea]

My point is, you never know anyone even though you think you do.  People are constantly changing.  If you have spent any quality time with FSU women, you would know that many marry without love and think they can learn to love someone.  Therefore my second point, it is more important to know if someone loves and respects you.

If you knew anything about me, you wouldn't have to ask if I have ever spent quality time with FSUW.  Having lived in Ukraine and been with my wife for going on 5 years now, I think it's safe to say that I have spent more time, of various qualities, with FSUW than most here.

I'm afraid I must disagree with your first sentence.  If you spend enough time with someone you can know them pretty darned well.  Of course people are constantly changing, but their core beliefs and personalities don't change, and if you are spending time with them, then the changes are well known.

I see that you are looking at things from two perspectives.  First, you must love and respect the other person and second, you must know that the other person loves and respects you.  It still doesn't answer the basic question.  How do you know someone loves and respects you if you don't know them?  How can you love and respect someone that you don't know?

If we agree with your argument that no one really knows another person, then no one can really know if they are loved and respected or if they can love and respect a stranger.  The knowledge of the person just logically has to come first.

[Gator]

My point is, you never know anyone even though you think you do.  People are constantly changing.  If you have spent any quality time with FSU women, you would know that many marry without love and think they can learn to love someone.  Therefore my second point, it is more important to know if someone loves and respects you.

Enot, it confuses me how you can know if someone loves you if you do not know them.  Unless one is in their early 20s and never been married before, true love takes time for which there is no substitute.

Also, I find RW to be very pragmatic out of necessity given their situation.  Such a trait does not lend itself to falling in true love in a week or so.  

And yes, I believe many RW who have become engaged after a short courtship are saying yes in the "hope" of love.  

Given a short courtship, I think the best you can hope for is to have loving feelings about a woman and feel that it is mutual.  Given that, there is no limit, especially if the two of you are compatible in many ways and committed to each other.  Commitment is key and that is something one can sense in another.

[Misha]

My point is, you never know anyone even though you think you do. 

In that case, why bother even dating. Marry the first stranger, convince yourself that you love and respect and love her, and voila. Why bother with all those dull conversations and hours spent knowing the other person. Simply adopt the the Forrest Gump approach to marriage: how does it go, finding a wife is like eating a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get....

People are constantly changing. 

Why do people get divorced then? Hey, if people are constantly changing, if a man or a woman is not happy with their spouse, all they would have to do is wait until the next change rolls in and hope that the new spouse will be more to their liking.

If you have spent any quality time with FSU women, you would know that many marry without love and think they can learn to love someone.  Therefore my second point, it is more important to know if someone loves and respects you.

You still haven't answered the question: how do you know they love and respect you? How do you distinguish between the woman who loves you and the one who hopes will love you someday?

[ambach123]

Quote

" The reason for failures in personal relationships is money or lack thereof, in over 70% of the times in such failures"  From Suzie Orman, author, financial expert, CNBC contributor.

She of course is talking about AM/ AW relationships.

For RW/ UW who come here, do so looking for a better life, that is a given no matter what other circumstances may be. Sometimes they find it, often they don't. When they don't relationship is bound to be in trouble. Money or lack thereof takes on even a more important consideration. The expectations are not met. It would be incredibly naive to ignore this on the premises that " love conquers all ".

In USA, about 5 - 10% of the people control over 90% of the wealth. They are well off, the rest are not. I tend to believe that most in this pursuit are not.

No amount of knowing or not knowing your partner is going to change this.

Even Wayne in his thread freely admits that if he was even a little better off financially his predicament would have never happened. That theme is repeated in several failed relationships described on this board.

The long and short of it, this is an expensive proposition in more ways than one, if you don't have the dough, pass on it. Knowing or not knowing someone is not going to make any difference.

That does not mean that there are no exceptions, there certainly are, specially if there is no or very little age gap, or the RW has a profession that she wants to pursue, or RW was fully informed of the lack of financial resources of AM and still took the plunge. In normal course of this pursuit, the RW will never take the plunge if she knew, you don't have the dough unless you looked like Brad Pitt.

What would qualify one for being able to give her a good life?

a. Owning your home without a mortgage.
b. A steady well paying job.
c. No debts.

Not many would qualify.

[Misha]

In USA, about 5 - 10% of the people control over 90% of the wealth. They are well off, the rest are not. I tend to believe that most in this pursuit are not.

The long and short of it, this is an expensive proposition in more ways than one, if you don't have the dough, pass on it. Knowing or not knowing someone is not going to make any difference.

So, only those in the top 5 or 10% should get married?

Sorry, trying to know someone does make a difference.

[kievstar]

Money helps you attract women but does not make you a better husband than someone else.  A man and woman need to have agreement on how to spend / save money before marriage.  Also, what both need on a yearly basis to be happy and when they expect to retire.  All debts and savings should be disclosed.  Any disagreement here and these two people should never get married.  This is a conversation all couples need to have before marriage or K-1.

I meet a lot of guys who throw money around when in Ukraine.  But these same guys are very tight on money in USA.  Gives a false impression to ladies they have met.  Communication is very important when you get serious.

I know very good looking AW who married poor AM.  And their happy.  These AM have confidence.  Every man should always try to learn and improve themselves.  Constructive criticism is good too.

[Caddydaddy]

I understand that a RW wants to know how a possible future hubby is doing financial, of course, this is normal, women want security, not only RW, also WW want to know this.
Some questions came in my mind how the motivations of RW looking abroad could be.

Is the the main reason how wealthy the WM is?
Is the main reason just to escape from FSU out of economical reasons?
Is it interesting playing games with internet and WM to see what happens, how far they can go?

In this case I fully understand that they need an escape plan, hehe, the reason is not the man.
Speaking for myself, if I can notice such tendencies I will break up communication on the spot, a RW can be as beautiful and sexy as she wants, no way.

Is she looking for a man she can trust?
Is she looking for a soulmate and life partner?
Is she looking for true love (big word I know) and happiness?

Ok, then we can discuss, but things like "I will get engaged with someone and hope to fall in love later", just forget it. I strongly believe nobody can hide such thinking in a relationship.
How do you know they love and respect you? I try to trust my instincts, lifeexperience, belly and head, if one has doubts, just forget it. But if they say a hearty yes, ok, then we can discuss 

[kievstar]

Hi caddydaddy,

Like your nickname.  I am from Detroit.

I cannot answer all your questions as you will find all RW are different.  Just like AW.  I can tell you many men come to Ukraine and flash money around.  Act like their rich.  Visit a couple times.  Then get upset later when relations end when truth comes out (sometimes on K-1 or after marriage the truth comes out).  In many cases it is the lie that ends the relations not because he is not rich.  Honest and open communication is very important.  Also, money is not going to impress most RW.  It will just make them take you shopping as a punishment in thinking money impresses them.  Most girls who want money put it right in their profile.  Be careful of girls saying financially secure man in Kiev and Odessa unless your considered rich.  Rich has a different meaning to people.

I will say the better looking women in Kiev usually have money as one of their requirements.  But this is do to so many rich guys or guys acting rich visiting them.  They just get a little spoiled and the foreign men make them this way.  Just like a man who can date many women, his standards go up.

My current girlfriend in Ukraine has no idea about my money and want to keep it that way as I do not want my money to make her more interested in me.  But I honestly answer all her questions.  She is not into money and actually gets turned off by it.  Sh thinks guys with money like to have many girlfriends.

[ambach123]

There are not many rich guys who go into this pursuit.

The really rich guys don't throw money around; those throwing money around are debt junkies. Soon their credit cards would be taken away, and they would have nothing to throw around.

Whenever you see a guy throwing money and wearing mohair suite, you can be rest assured he is few steps from bankruptcy.

This year more than two million people would file for bankruptcy in USA.

The richest man in the world drives an old American made SUV, by himself. Rich people are smart, for the most part they are unassuming. Read the book " The Millionaire Next Door ".
The rich did not get to be rich by wearing mohair suite, and throwing money on women they hardly know. I would not do either, not in this lifetime anyway.

Whether you are married to AW or RW, money or lack of it is a key factor that determines the outcome of your marriage. Almost any marriage counselor or financial advisor would tell you, this is not rocket science.

With RW, that issue is magnified many times; it would be incredibly naive, if not outright stupid, to think that she would come to a shack, and live happily, because she is in love, or because you have spent  some " face time " together. Or because you borrowed some money and visited her many times.

It does happen, but you can win a lottery too.

If you don't have  the money, learn a lesson or two from Wayne's thread, and pass on this pursuit.

[msmoby_ru]

There are not many rich guys who go into this pursuit.

The really rich guys don't throw money around; those throwing money around are debt junkies. Soon their credit cards would be taken away, and they would have nothing to throw around.

Whenever you see a guy throwing money and wearing mohair suite, you can be rest assured he is few steps from bankruptcy.

This year more than two million people would file for bankruptcy in USA.

The richest man in the world drives an old American made SUV, by himself. Rich people are smart, for the most part they are unassuming. Read the book " The Millionaire Next Door ".
The rich did not get to be rich by wearing mohair suite, and throwing money on women they hardly know. I would not do either, not in this lifetime anyway.

Whether you are married to AW or RW, money or lack of it is a key factor that determines the outcome of your marriage. Almost any marriage counselor or financial advisor would tell you, this is not rocket science.

With RW, that issue is magnified many times; it would be incredibly naive, if not outright stupid, to think that she would come to a shack, and live happily, because she is in love, or because you have spent  some " face time " together.

It does happen, but you can win a lottery too.

If you don't have  the money, learn a lesson or two from Wayne's thread, and pass on this pursuit.

 

He's been one time to Ukraine and he knows all about FSUW and men seeking same ..

Ambach123 will your "rich" guy be the guy wearing the attire you described in one of your earliest posts and be living in a building with a concierge, too ?!

Either you've changed a lot or you forget what you've posted before....

Be assured there are FSU ladies who prefer a man who might not be as outwardly "wealthy" as their ex,( back in the FSU)  but use other seemingly more important criteria to choose their next partner... !

[groovlstk]

No amount of knowing or not knowing your partner is going to change this.

Even Wayne in his thread freely admits that if he was even a little better off financially his predicament would have never happened. That theme is repeated in several failed relationships described on this board.

I think you are cherry-picking among words from a man who was in a state of shock. Men in Wayne's state, particularly in the immediate aftermath, will always look for a very specific reason why their wives looked elsewhere and they always have most trouble admitting the obvious: that they were unable meet her romantic and sexual needs. I see this even in trip reports from guys who are dumped by FSU women after a few dates - it's never that she was not interested in him, he'll always attribute the rejection to some specific decision-tree act like failing to take his shoes off when visiting her mom's home or embarrasing her by ordering the least expensive entree at her local restaurant.

Wayne's wife never respected him and never loved him. Were he wealthy, she may still be with him, but sleeping in a separate bedroom and living like his college roommate. If this is your idea of a successful marriage you'll easily find similar success. As for me, I'd never live like this, I'd much prefer bachelordom.

The long and short of it, this is an expensive proposition in more ways than one, if you don't have the dough, pass on it.

I would agree with this, but again it's all about expectations and setting those expectations. Without knowing each other, none of this is possible.

[groovlstk]

Ken, it's good to see you again, I know you're busy but I hope you have more time to pop in. We need your levity and wisdom - the inmates are taking over the asylum! 

Groov,

 I've not read the entire thread but noticed a new thread started by you (who are one of the few here who I keep an eye out for) and all I can really say is "Wow! Nailed it on the head."

 Here is a small example from an OMB: Recently I've been stuck with 60+ hour weeks (which are not enough to do what needs to be done) so I'm working evenings and weekends, not sleeping well, and am rather cranky. Elena asked me today if I wanted her to leave and thought something was wrong with us. This is after almost 4 years of marriage. Nothing could be farther from the truth and we talked about it but the point is that even after time together when a situation arises that you haven't been through before together things will come up and doubts can arise from this.

 If you (the man) do this international relationship thing you better be on your toes and pay attention. This is not a "be good and patient" for 6 months or a year and it will all be better. This is for life! YOUR whole life.

FWIW
 Ken

I get these gut-checks every few months too, good to know I can look forward to more in the coming years. 

[groovlstk]

The richest man in the world drives an old American made SUV, by himself. Rich people are smart, for the most part they are unassuming. Read the book " The Millionaire Next Door ".
The rich did not get to be rich by wearing mohair suite, and throwing money on women they hardly know. I would not do either, not in this lifetime anyway.

Does marrying a woman you hardly know count as throwing money at her?

[Misha]

There are not many rich guys who go into this pursuit.

Presumably, they have no problems finding women anywhere

Whenever you see a guy throwing money and wearing mohair suite, you can be rest assured he is few steps from bankruptcy.

What is it with the mohair suits You mention them twice in your posts.

Whether you are married to AW or RW, money or lack of it is a key factor that determines the outcome of your marriage. Almost any marriage counselor or financial advisor would tell you, this is not rocket science.

So, who are the experts on marriage, the marriage counselor or the financial advisers However, the importance of money in the success of a marriage is overrated as is the role of money problems in a divorce. There is a good article on MSN Money that summarizes how the belief that money is the main cause of divorce is based on popular expectations rather than reality. In this article, the author reviews research conducted by a Jan Andersen on divorce for her PhD:

"The more recent research Andersen reviewed relegated money to a lesser role in divorce. Rarely was it ranked higher than fourth or fifth, with other causes -- incompatibility, lack of emotional support, abuse and sexual problems -- typically ranking higher.

Money causes friction, of course. In a study of married couples from 1980 to 1992, 70% reported some kind of money problems. When Andersen looked deeper at that database, however, he found that those problems didn't necessarily lead to divorce.

'As a predictor of divorce, money problems are … so minor," Andersen said. "If we look at all the causes of divorce, financial problems can only account for 5% of the effect.'"

The thing is that successful marriages can succeed in spite of money problems, but money can be a convenient and more polite excuse. As the article writes: "No one is going to say, 'I got divorced because I was a jerk,' Andersen said. "It's more acceptable to say, 'We had money troubles.' "

With RW, that issue is magnified many times; it would be incredibly naive, if not outright stupid, to think that she would come to a shack, and live happily, because she is in love, or because you have spent  some " face time " together. Or because you borrowed some money and visited her many times.

So you have spent a week in the FSU and you now are the expert on RW I would say that it is naive and stupid to think that a woman will tolerate a jerk just because he has money.

If you don't have  the money, learn a lesson or two from Wayne's thread, and pass on this pursuit.

Well, in reading Wayne's thread, the problem was not that Wayne did not have money or had money problems, rather she wanted more money or money without Wayne.

[Sculpto]

I think Wayne's situation had nothing to do with the quanitity of money he had.  I think it is clear the girl had a plan from the beginning and she has masterfully used poor Wayne as a mule and is now trying to complete the scam by taking his house and car.  I just hope the guy will be able to recognize he only made one mistake in this, so far anyway.  He trusted the wrong person.. its not the end of the world.. it happens every day.  Live and learn and do more due diligence next time. 

Now.. going to ambachs bizarre comments...

I quote my lady.. "Ereek you know I not care the money.. but I need support.. support for my heart.. support for my brain... support for my soul... I not easy girl.. before I meet you I not think any man will to do it"

Actually I believe the demographics of men who go to the FSU seeking a woman put most of us in the upper middle class to very rich categories.  Most likely I am the most broke bloke on this site and I scrimp and save and made a giant effort to find a lady that shops at discount and thinks "someone who pays full retail is an idiot".  But even then if I lived in a less expensive city I would instantly jump into the so called upper middle class.

Some ladies in places like Kiev or Moscow become influenced by contact with western men who are working in those cities and are well paid and have nothing but girls to spend their money on.. and others are working the foreign dating scene through agency websites.  But, after my Moscow trip I am really sure the numbers who are so influenced is really small in the overall scheme of things. 

I use as an example the night I went to a club with my GF on Halloween.  First of all it would have been difficult to find this club without knowing a local, however, I was the ONLY foreign guy there.  The only women I had contact with in the club besides my GF and her friend were the girls at the entrance, the very cute bartender and the MC who was done up in the old school "Elvira" midight movie costume and was too hot for words.  In each situation when those other girls realized I was not Russian they became VERY interested in talking to me.  Guys I am no adonis.. i've got little hair left and a 30lb bowling ball, but, these girls wanted my attention and were disappointed when they saw I was with a pretty girl but that didn't stop them from flirting, especially the bartender who seemed rather infatuated and kept blushing and looking down and trying so hard to speak to me in English.

So, my contention is any man with some game can do well as long as he is honest about his intentions.. doesn't turn into a pig when he gets a little "action" and starts to think he is gods gift to women.  I was even thinking that if I was just in Moscow for a visit I would totally avoid the downtown area and concentrate on meeting women in the far out suburb where I had my apartment.  There were tons of beautiful girls there also and based on the kind of apartment I lived in which I would consider typical for the area most of the girls n that suburb would more than likely have pretty modest expectations.  Shoot, even when we went to Ashan store and went upstairs into the mall... again on the far out suburbs.. a guy with game could meet an amazing number of beauties in the mall.  I suspect most of them would be pretty modest also.  I also felt the same way on the subway.  the one time I went out on my own at one point there were three gorgeous women all sitting directly across from me.  They were not together and all three kept looking at me and glancing sideways at each other.. shifting around and flipping hair.  I am sure if I had gotten off at one of their stops and made an approach it would have been positively recieved.  Again, all these girls were clearly just normal average Muscovites who get by living with parents and taking very good care of the small number of clothes they have.  I think even with very limited Russian language skills this is still possible, though, someone with a decent ability in the language would basically have his pick. 

Did anyone ever read Gabriel Garcia Marquez "Love in the Time of Cholera"?  There is a whole section on the hero picking up women on public transportation.  I used to do it all the time in SF. 

[Enot]

If you knew anything about me, you wouldn't have to ask if I have ever spent quality time with FSUW.  Having lived in Ukraine and been with my wife for going on 5 years now, I think it's safe to say that I have spent more time, of various qualities, with FSUW than most here.

Well I find this hard to believe, in fact I don't believe it.

[Enot]

And yes, I believe many RW who have become engaged after a short courtship are saying yes in the "hope" of love.  

Yes, finally someone understands!  My point is knowing someone loves you is more important then knowing someone.  Would you rather marry someone you know or someone that loves you?

[Misha]

Yes, finally someone understands!  My point is knowing someone loves you is more important then knowing someone.  Would you rather marry someone you know or someone that loves you?

Gator can comment on what precisely he meant, but my reading of what you cite is not that the women love the men they plan on marrying, rather they HOPE that they will one day love him. Gator wrote: "And yes, I believe many RW who have become engaged after a short courtship are saying yes in the "hope" of love."  They do not love him, they hope they can, maybe, love him. To know if love will truly blossom, then you have to spend time together. It still seems like a pretty risky proposition to me: marrying someone that maybe, might love you someday.

Misha

[Enot]

In that case, why bother even dating. Marry the first stranger, convince yourself that you love and respect and love her, and voila. Why bother with all those dull conversations and hours spent knowing the other person. Simply adopt the the Forrest Gump approach to marriage: how does it go, finding a wife is like eating a box of chocolates, you never know what you are going to get....

You can do as you wish but in my opinion it isn't a good idea.

You still haven't answered the question: how do you know they love and respect you? How do you distinguish between the woman who loves you and the one who hopes will love you someday?

If you can't tell then you have problems.  Sounds like you need to spend some quality time with Russian women and their culture.

[Misha]

You can do as you wish but in my opinion it isn't a good idea.

Again, not my idea, but it seems to be what you are suggesting.

If you can't tell then you have problems.  Sounds like you need to spend some quality time with Russian women and their culture.

Well, I do know how to tell the difference, and I know that it takes time to know if someone truly loves you. As for spending time with Russian women, I have been spending the last 13 years with Russian women.   

[Enot]

Gator can comment on what precisely he meant, but my reading of what you cite is not that the women love the men they plan on marrying, rather they HOPE that they will one day love him. Gator wrote: "And yes, I believe many RW who have become engaged after a short courtship are saying yes in the "hope" of love."  They do not love him, they hope they can, maybe, love him. To know if love will truly blossom, then you have to spend time together. It still seems like a pretty risky proposition to me: marrying someone that maybe, might love you someday.

Michel

If I understand you then yes, I am saying that it is more important to know someone loves you then just knowing someone.  Hoping for love is not a reason for marriage but many RW do this and I believe Gator agrees with this.

[dispozo]

And yes, I believe many RW who have become engaged after a short courtship are saying yes in the "hope" of love.  

Yes, finally someone understands!  My point is knowing someone loves you is more important then knowing someone.  Would you rather marry someone you know or someone that loves you?

I read this differently....

She is hoping to fall in love, she is not in love.

So she actually neither knows or loves him.