Why does she need an escape plan if you're such a nice guy?

[Gator]

The four possible combinations for marriage:

1.  You know someone and you have loving feelings – Ideal, assuming the feeling is mutual.

2.  You know someone and you do not have loving feelings - Not good, yet a symbiotic relationship may develop.

3.  You do not know someone and you have loving feelings - Enot’s combination, and IMO not knowing someone excludes true love.  Nevertheless, a man can easily feel infatuation, lust, limerence… and to marry he needs blind optimism (which is in ample supply during the giddy state of infatuation and lust).

4.  You do not know someone and you do not have loving feelings – Only for the lonely and desperate.

Returning to Groovlstk’s topic, which combinations compel a RW to have an escape plan?  All but the first.

[Misha]

The four possible combinations for marriage:
3.  You do not know someone and you have loving feelings - Enot’s combination, and IMO not knowing someone excludes true love.  Nevertheless, a man can easily feel infatuation, lust, limerence… and to marry he needs blind optimism (which is in ample supply during the giddy state of infatuation and lust).

4.  You do not know someone and you do not have loving feelings – Only for the lonely and desperate.

Returning to Groovlstk’s topic, which combinations compel a RW to have an escape plan?  All but the first.

Gator, I like your categorization. I would add a 4b: you do not know someone, do not have love feelings, and you could care less because the goal is money or a green card.

Invariably, cases such as Wayne and others are a result of a male who falls under 3 marrying a woman who falls under 4b.

[Enot]

I asked my fiancee your questions and here is her answer....

Would you marry someone you know without love? No.

Would you marry someone you love? That whom I well know and I love and the one who well knows and loves me - yes.

Do you need to know him to love him? When we have met and the more I learned about you, the more I understood, that I fall in love with you. When I have met you, I knew nothing about you, I wished to know about you more and more. The more I learned about you as about the person: timid, sentimental, clever, kind, betraid, careful, fair, cheerful the more I understood, the more I love you.

Can you love him without knowing him? No. How can I love the person about whom I know nothing.....??

I gave her the questions and asked her to answer honestly. I said nothing more, I received the answers I expected.

Tell your fiancee thank you for answering my question.

[ScottinCrimea]

Tell your fiancee thank you for answering my question.

enot, I answered your question and didn't get a thank you.  What gives?  Do you disagree with my answer?  It seems I provided the same answer that dispozo's fiance did and we both took a position different from your own, as has everyone else. You keep rephrasing your question and not accepting answers until someone posts something that is vague enough or that you can partially quote to claim that they agree with you. So has anyone here but you said that loving someone is more important than knowing them?


Also, you have failed to answer my questions so let me repeat them for you.

There's another simple question that I don't see that you have answered.  Do you honestly believe that you can love someone who you don't know?  Yes or no please.

Instead of answering MY question you re-phrased your own.  I asked for a simple yes or no.  I suspect you won't answer it because a yes answer would be foolish and a no answer would contradict what you have stated before.

Here's the second question you failed to answer:

Isn't the definition of a liar someone who doesn't tell the truth?  

If you disagree with this, would you please either provide an alternate definition of "liar" or give me your term for someone who doesn't tell the truth so we can be working from the same dictionary?

The third point wasn't presented in the form of a question but perhaps it should have been because you are dancing around the issue and it brings into question your credibility, particularly as it relates to experience with FSUW and the contradictions in your posts.

Now regarding your answer to my question, you were at this for two years.  During that time you had a relationship with a Russian woman but never completed the paperwork and have been in a relationship with your now wife for over a year.  You only mentioned having known two FSUW. Something isn't adding up.

Not necessary to provide personal or embarassing details, just tell us when you were married to this RW, for how long, and how it fits into what you have posted before.

[OlgaH]

Personally I have heard of the law of gravity but I never heard anyone talking about the law of love.
Can you love someone you don't know.  My own personal opinion is we never really know the person we love or anyone for that matter.  Everyone has a secret side than is hard to discern.   You can be married to someone for 50 years and there will be things you don't know.

Agree IMO it is reality 

Would you marry someone you know or someone that loves you?

Can you love him without knowing him? No. How can I love the person about whom I know nothing.....??

I married my now ex husband because I loved him. Did I know him? I married him after one year from our first meeting...  and before to get married we lived together for 8-9 months (it was my offer)... After 15 years we divorced. Our total crisis we faced after 13 years... But even now I can not tell that I know my ex husband so well,  but I know he is not a bad person

When you know nothing about a person it means that you even have not met that person 

[Enot]

Isn't the definition of a liar someone who doesn't tell the truth?  You say you believe I am lying. An apology would have been more appropriate than a denial of the obvious or changing to the slightly less insulting accusation of "so-called" experience.

Okay I'll apologize ... I'm sorry you're a "liar" (your twisted words not mine).

[OlgaH]

I still say love and respect are more imortant than knowing someone.  I have heard many times that FSU marry but are not in love and they think they will "grow into" love.  This is not the attitude to have.

As I already wrote in my case I married my ex husband because I loved him and of course respected. To understand that most likely I would not marry him would take 10 years 

Yes, there are many cases when women marry without love, they have respect for their men and respect is based on one's intention - some women marry just because of man's money (money respect and money love is not so rare case), some women respect a chosen one because he is a kind and decent man who can be supporter and father for her child/children, some women are afraid of loneliness...and it is not only in FSU. Some of such marriages happen to be happy and some of such marriages come to divorce.

Love and knowing someone?

After a two months of the corresponding and every day phone conversations between me and Robert I caught myself on a thought that I worried about him so much (how he was, where he was, how he was feeling and so on)... I was waiting for his phone calls, I counted hours from call to call, I was living from call to call...

[ScottinCrimea]

Okay I'll apologize ... I'm sorry you're a "liar" (your twisted words not mine).

Back to personal attacks.  What class!!  I didn't need to twist your words, they were already pretty twisted.  I was just pointing it out, which left you embarassed.  Do you honestly think you can claim any credibility when you cannot answer simple questions and when you claim that you had a Russian wife when you did not?  That's the problem with telling tall tales.  Eventually the inconsistencies will come out.

[OlgaH]

...you claim that you had a Russian wife when you did not?  That's the problem with telling tall tales. 

Enot,

I think you should post your marriage/divorce certificate 
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7043.msg125642#msg125642

and everyone who was married to FSU woman or who are married  should do the same  just to be sure 

[Enot]

Back to personal attacks.  What class!!  I didn't need to twist your words, they were already pretty twisted.  I was just pointing it out, which left you embarassed.  Do you honestly think you can claim any credibility when you cannot answer simple questions and when you claim that you had a Russian wife when you did not?  That's the problem with telling tall tales.  Eventually the inconsistencies will come out.

What am I embarrased about, I'm embarrased for your wife actually.

I've answered all your questions and I will be more than happy to send Olga my Russian divorce certificate since I was married in Russia and lived and worked there for over a year.  There are no inconsistancies to my stories, maybe you're just not bright enough to understand.

So now you are attacking me and saying I'm a liar, looks like you have sank to my level.

I am only trying to get a straight answer to a question (which I got from 2 Russian women) based on my opinion and the "good old boy" gang disagreed with me so they began attacking me.  No wonder no one stays on this board for long ... you can't express your mind or opinion without getting attacked.  Any other members agree with me?

[AnastassiaAsh]

agree with what? I already lost the line of thoughts here. Could you state your question again please?

We are dwelling in the forest of philosophy, so it will be really hard for everybody to agree on something. There are too many shades and facets of things we are discussing...

[Enot]

Agree that there are 4-5 "members" that are in a 'good old boy' gang and attack people's opinion if they don't agree with it.  I asked 1 question and these "members" never answered it as I presented it.  Yet I answered quite a few of their questions truthfully. 

I actually got an e-mail saying this board doesn't keep too many new members because some members attack (the ones in this thread to be exact) when they don't agree with an opinion.

I would be happy to send you my divorce certificate also and you can tell this gang I was telling the truth.

[Misha]

Agree that there are 4-5 "members" that are in a 'good old boy' gang and attack people's opinion if they don't agree with it.  I asked 1 question and these "members" never answered it as I presented it. 

Enot, answer this question as I ask it with a yes or no. Don't try to wiggle out of it by changing the question. Enot, have you stopped beating your wife?

Of course, if you answer "no", it means that you beat her in the past and if you answer "yes" it means that you beat her in the present. So, go ahead, answer my question with a "yes" or a "no".

The fact of the matter is that you insist that we answer your question, which is just as ludicrous. Yes, I refuse to answer your question as you presented it, because both of the answers that you would "accept" are not correct. Once again: I did not marry a woman without love, and I would never have married a woman that I did not know.

[Enot]

Misha, it is not my question.  My question is what is more important in marriage.  Knowing someone or loving someone?

[AnastassiaAsh]

I went to the the beginning of the thread and read through it all again. Enot, you started saying that not all men in this pursuit are idiots, while others have been saying that most of them are. I say 99% are, the rest know what they are doing.

Misha shifted arguments towards personal assumptions about you that you had a very quick courtship before marriage. I suppose everything started when you said: “I still say love and respect are more important than knowing someone.  I have heard many times that FSU marry but are not in love and they think they will "grow into" love.  This is not the attitude to have.” I agree with this too, one should both love and respect that person and it all comes in time. This time frame is different for different people, and we can argue about that forever.

BC’s comment about ‘grow into love’ does not contradict your words. It’s just another aspect of it. And Misha’s comments too. The main argument is “How can you possibly love and respect someone that you don't know?” In my opinion, you can not.

Then you are saying: “My point is, you never know anyone even though you think you do.” And that’s true too. You guys are all right. The idea is this – one should know another person ENOUGH to be able to say that he/she wants to marry. There are no guarantees, only hopes from that time on. It doesn’t mean that we know that person 100%, for that matter we sometimes don’t know ourselves to the end, because life keeps bringing some things that you face for the first time and you can be surprised how you yourself act or what you can say. The same goes to another person who you love, he or she matures in years too, points of view change, but at the same time those values that constitute the core of a person stay and never change. They are the reason or a big part of the reason we marry this or that person. So I can say that there is no argument really. When you start taking things to the extreme, that’s when people start ‘atacking’. I don’t think you meant that and I didn’t read that in your posts, so I don’t know what the fuss is about.

Then everybody started attacking ambach123, and then it all shifted towards who and for how long stayed in Ukraine…again silly…….then you said “My point is knowing someone loves you is more important then knowing someone.  Would you rather marry someone you know or someone that loves you?

If you ask me personally, both people should both love and respect and know each other to have grounds for good marriage. If I had this choice, I wouldn’t marry at all. I would rather marry someone I have common Christian values with, someone I understand and who understands me, someone who I come to know and who knows me ENOUGH to be able to make a decision. It is not good if it is only one way. It’s very important for me to know and love that person, as well as him knowing and loving me. There is no ‘rather’ or ‘what if’ here. I can’t make a decision if there is less than that.

So both RW and AM who don’t have the whole thing going on risk tremendously and then we hear these stories.

“Hoping for love is not a reason for marriage” – absolutely correct!

“I am only saying it is more important to know someone loves you than it is to know someone.” - Well, you can’t differentiate these things because loving already means knowing. You can’t love without knowing that person. You have to know and feel that she both knows, respects and loves you! You can’t go either or, thus you can’t compare. One thing can’t go without the other.

The same goes to your statement “What is more important for marriage.  Loving someone or knowing someone?” - BOTH!

Then ScottinCrimea decided to throw a light onto your past relationships and what really happened there. I don’t know why and he probably shouldn’t have done it. All the arguments after that heated a little more. But honestly I can hardly say these are attacks. Other members got pretty good bats from KenC, Catzenmouse, Jb – those were harsh attacks, and they themselves were attacked too. This is nothing in comparison. But Enot, I still know how you feel, been there done that.

[Misha]

Misha, it is not my question.  My question is what is more important in marriage.  Knowing someone or loving someone?

Once again: BOTH are important for a marriage. How can you love someone and not know them? Yes, you may not know then 100%, but you should aim for 99%.

[Enot]

As usual, I agree with everything you said.

Yes both knowing and loving someone is important in marriage, but to me loving someone is more important.  It is my opinion but as usual and as you pointed out, I was attacked for stating my opinion from the "good old boy" network.

I think the moderators could do a better job in controling this gang ... unless of course they are the moderators ... which is possible based on my past experiences.  I was once a moderator and I know it isn't an easy job.

Thanks for putting everything in perspective Ms. Ash.

[Misha]

Yes both knowing and loving someone is important in marriage, but to me loving someone is more important.  It is my opinion but as usual and as you pointed out, I was attacked for stating my opinion from the "good old boy" network.

Who exactly is this "good old boy" network? How exactly were you attracked? I presume that asking you for clarification and contradicting your opinion is defined by you as "attacking" LOL.

[Enot]

By your "LOL" comment I see you continue to attack and do not take this discussion seriuosly.  Your only intent is to try to belittle because you don't agree with my opinion.

It's time for you to grow up and try to have serious dicussions and stop attacking members.

[Misha]

By your "LOL" comment I see you continue to attack and do not take this discussion seriuosly.  Your only intent is to try to belittle because you don't agree with my opinion.

It's time for you to grow up and try to have serious dicussions and stop attacking members.

Well, I am making light of the fact that some individuals, you for example, want us to take your word at THE TRUTH without question. When we do ask for clarification, you start insulting us, throwing in insinuation and innuendo, and complain of being "attacked."

So far, this is what I understand. You went to Russia, got married quickly. Then, you were divorced. (So, was it a problem of not loving, not knowing, or both?) Then, you went to Moldava, because you had problems finding another wife in Russia. Correct me if I am wrong.

[ScottinCrimea]

What am I embarrased about, I'm embarrased for your wife actually.

I've answered all your questions and I will be more than happy to send Olga my Russian divorce certificate since I was married in Russia and lived and worked there for over a year.  There are no inconsistancies to my stories, maybe you're just not bright enough to understand.

So now you are attacking me and saying I'm a liar, looks like you have sank to my level.

I am only trying to get a straight answer to a question (which I got from 2 Russian women) based on my opinion and the "good old boy" gang disagreed with me so they began attacking me.  No wonder no one stays on this board for long ... you can't express your mind or opinion without getting attacked.  Any other members agree with me?

enot, first I will apologize for saying that you lied about having a Russian wife. I have learned of your marriage to the Russian woman Lana and the details of the breakup.  Truly a sad experience. But the other things I have learned tell me that you did not live and work in Russia, in fact, your first visit to Russia was in May, 2006 to meet her and you had to get a passport for that trip. You don't speak Russian, you know nothing about FSUW and their culture, and you haven't a clue about either loving or knowing,  Still, I can now understand your fascination with the issue.  You have been seeking straight answers to a question and ignoring those that were provided, at the same time not being straight with the members here.

Out of common decency to a man who clearly has problems, I won't go into any of the details of what I now know, but if you persist in offering yourself up as any kind of expert on the FSU, FSUW, or how to have a successful relationship I will provide a PM with the information to anyone who asks.

I'm not one who normally engages in personal attacks, but I think you are a danger to anyone who might listen to any advice you attempt to offer.

I honestly wish you well in life and much happiness with your new wife.  I can only imagine how difficult it is to be married (in reality) so late in life and the adjustments that come with that.  But please in the future limit your comments on this forum to something you actually know something about and don't try to BS us.  There are too many knowledgeable people here who will see through it.  I assure you that I will be watching, as will the other "good old boys" who like to keep this the best and most accurate forum.

[William3rd]

How about heading for the flame room or something and start a combat thread? What is it called here- anything goes? This started out as a pretty interesting thread and now it is degrading. It would be a a shame to see yet another fine bit of information heading for the sewer. . . .

[ScottinCrimea]

How about heading for the flame room or something and start a combat thread? What is it called here- anything goes? This started out as a pretty interesting thread and now it is degrading. It would be a a shame to see yet another fine bit of information heading for the sewer. . . .

william, I agree.  I'm content to leave it here and resume the original intent of the thread.  If enot wants to persist, I suggest he start a new thread or I will move it to the Anything Goes section and we can really get nasty.

[Enot]

Well, I am making light of the fact that some individuals, you for example, want us to take your word at THE TRUTH without question. When we do ask for clarification, you start insulting us, throwing in insinuation and innuendo, and complain of being "attacked."

So far, this is what I understand. You went to Russia, got married quickly. Then, you were divorced. (So, was it a problem of not loving, not knowing, or both?) Then, you went to Moldava, because you had problems finding another wife in Russia. Correct me if I am wrong.

Wrong ... as usual. 

I was stating my opinion not expressing truth, twisting my words again.

[Gator]

I am only trying to get a straight answer to a question (which I got from 2 Russian women) based on my opinion and the "good old boy" gang disagreed with me so they began attacking me. 

Enot,

IMO no one is "attacking" you.  Your question has been answered by two RW and by several men, yet you persist.  Either you do not like the answer you received or we misunderstand your question because you have not phrased your question properly.  Either way, it is time to drop this topic.  PLEASE!!!

Misha and Scott are not in a "good ol' boy gang."  Misha is fairly new to the board as an active participant.  Scott has been here much longer, yet he has been harassed a couple of times by the remnants of a group of OMBs in a style more severe than what you experienced here.  Scott is perhaps more offended by being called a "good ol' boy" than the other things you accused him of.