Professional vs Blue Collar....Your Opinion

[GoodOlBoy]

Hello everyone. I have done some research on this topic and I cannot find any postings on this forum about it, so here goes.
I have noticed over the years, on different Russian forums, that it is the general advice for newbies to search out "educated" FSU women. What if this advice is incorrect? I would like to submit this hypothesis for your consideration. Due to my location and my wife's friendliness, I have had personal contact with a lot of Russian/Ukraine ladies here in the USA. I have started to notice a trend. Quite a few professional women (Doctors, Lawyers, Chief Accountants (CPA's)..etc.) really have a difficult time adjusting to life in the USA. They have to take "demeaning" jobs. If these professional women want to have their original occupation here in the USA, they literally have to start all over again in school. On the other hand I have met several women who are here with "lesser" educations who seem to be happy as clams doing "menial" jobs. I can give a shining example of this. My wife has a "lesser educated" friend from Omsk that came to the USA (K1) the same time she did. She married a man that lives in Las Vegas. She works in one of the major hotels as a maid and she is very happy with her job and pay. My wife and I went to Las Vegas to get married and we went back to Las Vegas when her friend got married. We also went back for another visit recently. So I am confident in saying things have not changed for her and she has told my wife and I over and over again that she if very happy. Closer to home, I come in contact with FSU women everyday. I shop at the Russian supermarkets (6) in my area and I speak to the help all of the time. They seem to be ok with their work. They are DEFINITELY glad to be here in the USA. I hear this same comment over and over again: "I will NEVER go back to Russia/Ukraine". I don't even know how many Russian Restaurants there are in this area, but it is quite a few (25-30 maybe more). The waitresses are all very nice and sweet. They all seem happy as clams. I have had long conversations with them and many of them are not highly educated. I am fortunate to be able to converse with these ladies, because I have the perfect ice breaker, my wife is Russian. The minute I tell anybody about my wife, they say: "Oh really? What city is she from?" and then I have a prolonged conversation when possible and gain a lot of information from their prospective. For the most part, I can state that these ladies are OK with their work. Do they want more? I think so. Heck, I would like to be President of the USA, but I know my limits.
I have also come in contact with several professional FSU ladies, mostly doctors, that are doing "menial" jobs and they are not as happy. One lady was a doctor in Moscow. She graduated with a Red Diploma. Here in America she is an ultra sound tech. at a hospital. Another former Russian doctor we know is a pharmacy tech at a drug store chain. I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture. For the most part, these ladies have accepted their lives. I cannot say that they have the same enthusiasm about their careers or lives as the other ladies previously mentioned. So I guess I come back to my original question. Should the newbies really search for highly educated professionals or blue collar FSU women?

[Kuna]

GoB,

It's a good question you ask but I think it comes down to a woman's expectations of her new life - no matter what her educational background is.

If a woman is not prepared for what life will be like (all manner of things, housing, her new cities infrastructure, income, career, etc) it will be VERY difficult!

My wife has degrees in law and economics, studied for 2 years in Germany and had quite a comfortable existence (but demanding job) while in Ukraine.  We always knew after immigrating we wanted to start a family, and we did so almost immediate after marriage.

Her expectations have been fulfilled, and thus is very contented.

If someone has unrealistic expectations before mariage, it's up to the man IMHO to adjust those expectations VERY early on.

Kuna

[GoodOlBoy]

Thanks for your opinion KUNA.

I am curious about your thoughts concerning the responsibility of the newbie (during the dating/K1 process) explaining to a "professional" women who expects to work in the USA, what she can and cannot due on arrival?

And also, at what point (in the relationship) in your opinion, should this discussion begin?

Remember, we are talking about, Doctors, Lawyers, Chief Accountants (Economists) etc.

[Vaughn]

I have noticed over the years, on different Russian forums, that it is the general advice for newbies to search out "educated" FSU women. What if this advice is incorrect? ..... Should the newbies really search for highly educated professionals or blue collar FSU women?

  I believe in many cases, it's not sound advice. We've had (and have) a few posters here at RWD
who are stuck on advising the avoidance of non-professionals, to the point of demeaning them with
labels like "shop girls". So what do we tell the guy who's pulling in $65,000 annually as a mechanic -
to seek a doctor? Or do we submit he's underfinanced for the whole idea to begin with? A quick glance
around the landscape here reveals a healthy cross section of occupations among East-West couples.
To those men who've sponsored a lawyer or doctor and successfully transitioned her into that field,
I applaud you. To those men who've chosen the best woman for them regardless of life station, you
are to be commended as well.

  We have one lovely lady here who worked as a doctor in Russia. Her future employability was never
discussed seriously. The marriage folded during her fourth year of re-education, and lately she's set
her sights on a RN supervisory position.

  As for when to discuss her employment prospects - professional or not, I would definitely
address these well before any engagement. But that's just me.   

[Sculpto]

Doesn't this depend in least in part on what the orientation of the guy is?  I mean a building contractor working with his hands all day, drinking beers with his buddies at the pub after work and going to monster truck pulls is not likely to have much in common with a multi degreed FSU professional who reads the classics and enjoys opera.  Those differences could at first be endearing but in the long run might be a problem.  Uptown girl and downtown boy... or the other way around for that matter..

[Vaughn]

Exactly, Sculpto. I wanted, first and foremost, a lady who could also be
like a best friend rather than just an appointed partner. It happened that I
found that best friend and fabulous wife in a schoolteacher.

Had she been a market cashier it wouldn't have stopped me from pursuing her.

[Misha]

And also, at what point (in the relationship) in your opinion, should this discussion begin?

Immediately. I was lucky. My wife had relatives in Germany and visited regularly. She knew the challenges facing her as an immigrant even before I met her. Better to expect the worst and be pleasantly surprised than disappointed due to unmet expectations.

[kievstar]

If you meet a career orientated lady who is a lawyer, doctor, or dentist it is going to require hard work to get her to the level she wants career wise in the USA.  That being said my current dentist is a female from Kiev (her husband is from Ukraine), one of my doctors is from Russia (she divorced her AM).  I have seen them both recently and they told me it set their career back 6 years moving to the USA but worth it now (but it was a lot of hard work and no life for 6 years). 

Someone marrying a career lady (doctor, dentist, lawyer) and a man who wants a family has a lot of headaches going forward.  Is this lady much different than a typical career girl from the USA- maybe a little but not much.  These marriages can work I guess.

[dobradavid]

Should the newbies really search for highly educated professionals or blue collar FSU women?

There's some truth in your observation. My wife does not work outside the home becasue she can't get the kind of work she thinks she deserves. 

[ConnerVT]

Why doesn't anyone look at it the other way?

I'm an American man, and an attorney (or stock broker, or insurance salesman, etc) with a middle level position at a not very prestigious company.  I speak Russian marginally well, but with a strong American accent.  I have never been to Russia before.

When do you expect I can start a good job?  When are you going to find it for me?

Just another perspective to look at...   

[Sculpto]

Conner.. your post is interesting because it brings to my mind the question of "what is a real man?". 

I am no expert in this topic but I got a little insite from my girl when I went to visit her. 

I am pretty much a "go with the wind" kind of guy.  "Whatever" is cool and I don't often care what I am doing if I am with my girl, as long as I am with her.  However, it became pretty clear she wanted ME to decide what WE would do.  She might put up a little fight, but, in the end it seemed whatever I wanted is what we did and shw as happier when I was difinitive about it.

I think the same goes for career.  My girl is not expecting me to be #1 most famous and succesful kitchen designer in the world.  What she is expecting is that I will nto complain about my situation and I will make the best of what is put in front of me. 

So, I would respectfully put forth the thought that asking the question you asked with the explanation you gave would not be advisable when conversing with a FSUW. 

[bgreed]

Doesn't this depend in least in part on what the orientation of the guy is?  I mean a building contractor working with his hands all day, drinking beers with his buddies at the pub after work and going to monster truck pulls is not likely to have much in common with a multi degreed FSU professional who reads the classics and enjoys opera.  Those differences could at first be endearing but in the long run might be a problem.  Uptown girl and downtown boy... or the other way around for that matter..

Sculpto I really think this is a very unfair sterotype of those of us that have the skill and knowledge to work with our hands to build the houses you live in and buildings you work in everyday.  You will find amongst even highly educated RW/UW that they have a great appreciation for men who as they say "Have golden hands"  By the way i have a four year degree in music education but chose this career path instead.  So we are not all beer swilling low brows as you seem to think.  If you might consider there are quite a few math skills that go into the building of a structure having to to with different bearing loads, wind loads. geometry etc. Might want to think before using a negative sterotype next time.

[Sculpto]

bgreed.. wow you really took that the wrong way.. I am a cabinet/furniture maker, sculptor, kitchen designer... I have spent much of my adult life working with my hands.. and working with many people as yourself who are educated in something other than the trades but CHOSE to work in something physical for the pleasure of it.  There is a big difference between a guy like you, or me, than Joe the Plumber.  Anyway, sorry if you misunderstood my comment.

But, I know a guy who is a dockworker, who is very smart.. but is also pretty much of a roughneck who is also searching for an FSU bride.. he is looking for a lady that is NOT a doctor, lawyer, professional because he is quite sure there will be nothing in common.

[Lily]

  Heck, I would like to be President of the USA, but I know my limits.

Russian doctors, lawyers or chief accountants may think exactly the same way. They may realize that it takes them hard work to regain their position in the US, and may eventually think that it is not worth their efforts. RW are practical

I think this is more about personalities than profession. You could meet an ambitious and high maintenance Russian teacher and less than ambitious and easy doctor.Right, in many cases a Russian pro has to content herself with menial jobs in the West. Many RW know that. It takes them certain humbleness, and plenty of perseverance to pass through all this. Again, personality counts, not the level of education

Additionally, one should not forget that there are many professions that are related to the main field. In your post, you mentioned the professions that are relatively widely applicable. For instance, legal profession has a lot more options in the US that in FSU. More than a Russian person could think of. There is a number of paralegal and other law related jobs, for instance.

Last but not least, please note that for a RW a job is mostly her social determinator. In Russian society, you are what you do. The social structure in the US is however different. There is no uniform society as in Russia. Social groups are closed. Wife follows her husband's position. She will quickly feel and realize that as soon as she arrives. Therefore she might change her opinion on her profession as the factor that signifies her place in society.

On a general note, I'd agree with the point of looking for a woman that is somehow equal to you.

[groovlstk]

Last but not least, please note that for a RW a job is mostly her social determinator. In Russian society, you are what you do. The social structure in the US is however different. There is no uniform society as in Russia. Social groups are closed.

Not to get off topic, but one of the things my wife likes about the US is that American people, in general, don't treat her according to their station in life. Most her clients are very wealthy people and she was shocked to see that they treat her with the same degree of respect as the pizza delivery guy. And since she throws compliments about Americans around pretty rarely, I take what I can get

[dobradavid]

Sculpto I really think this is a very unfair sterotype of those of us that have the skill and knowledge to work with our hands to build the houses you live in and buildings you work in everyday.  You will find amongst even highly educated RW/UW that they have a great appreciation for men who as they say "Have golden hands"  By the way i have a four year degree in music education but chose this career path instead.  So we are not all beer swilling low brows as you seem to think.  If you might consider there are quite a few math skills that go into the building of a structure having to to with different bearing loads, wind loads. geometry etc. Might want to think before using a negative sterotype next time.

I did not take it that way - I consider "blue collar" to be hands-on skills that are in demand everywhere.

[dobradavid]

Russian doctors, lawyers or chief accountants may think exactly the same way. They may realize that it takes them hard work to regain their position in the US, and may eventually think that it is not worth their efforts. RW are practical

I think this is more about personalities than profession. You could meet an ambitious and high maintenance Russian teacher and less than ambitious and easy doctor.Right, in many cases a Russian pro has to content herself with menial jobs in the West. Many RW know that. It takes them certain humbleness, and plenty of perseverance to pass through all this. Again, personality counts, not the level of education

Additionally, one should not forget that there are many professions that are related to the main field. In your post, you mentioned the professions that are relatively widely applicable. For instance, legal profession has a lot more options in the US that in FSU. More than a Russian person could think of. There is a number of paralegal and other law related jobs, for instance.

Last but not least, please note that for a RW a job is mostly her social determinator. In Russian society, you are what you do. The social structure in the US is however different. There is no uniform society as in Russia. Social groups are closed. Wife follows her husband's position. She will quickly feel and realize that as soon as she arrives. Therefore she might change her opinion on her profession as the factor that signifies her place in society.

On a general note, I'd agree with the point of looking for a woman that is somehow equal to you.

My compliments on your English writing ability. 

[dobradavid]

Not to get off topic, but one of the things my wife likes about the US is that American people, in general, don't treat her according to their station in life. Most her clients are very wealthy people and she was shocked to see that they treat her with the same degree of respect as the pizza delivery guy. And since she throws compliments about Americans around pretty rarely, I take what I can get

LOL! Mine also! 

[viking]

I know quite a few men who never went to college and became a plumber, electrician or carpenter. They are all intelligent and have done quite well for themselves. Some are now the owners of small-mid size businesses. Actually I would rather be in their shoes than a stock broker today.

[kievstar]

College education does not mean your smart.  Street smarts is more important than book smarts IMO.  I usually fire or transfer Ivy league graduates right away as they spend more time talking about things than doing something.  Give me a poor kid with a hunger to succeed any day regardless of schooling and you can train them to do what is needed.

Many girls I have met in Ukraine put more importance on money than job title.  However I do not date Lawyers, doctors,etc. in Ukraine.  I have dated some politicians but they were not agency girls. 

[Sculpto]

We are still not focusing on the concepts of compatibility of interests in couples.  Chemistry, attractions, love feelings are all great and are all part of the relationship.. but at the end of the day compatibility is what keeps people together.

[twrnut]

Obviously it can not be applied in a general sense. Each person's situation, desires and expectations are different and their best hope it to find someone with similar traits.  So, good luck with that.
Actually, I think the ability and/or willingness to adapt to the changes in our lives is probably more important to our successful marriages than the jobs we hold. I know with my RW, I have had to adapt quite quickly on numerous occasions. . . . 

     

[Blues Fairy]

Ever since I started University I thought education was not what lectures you sit in but what people you spend your 4-6 years among.  Even your everyday language and thinking style is influenced by your circle of communication, to say nothing of your choice of reading, interests and activities.  Therefore I would never have considered marrying someone below my own academic level - I simply cannot relate to such people on a long term basis.  My friends and acquaintances are, however, of very diverse backgrounds.

[Sculpto]

Blues.. you are kind of getting to my point.. but.. then there are the exceptions.. for example.. I know a bunch of carpenters that have advanced degrees in many fields.. even a couple of physicists... but for whatever reason they have chosen to cut wood and bang nails instead of making nuclear weapons or whatever... so would such a character have dissuaded you?

[Blues Fairy]

Blues.. you are kind of getting to my point.. but.. then there are the exceptions.. for example.. I know a bunch of carpenters that have advanced degrees in many fields.. even a couple of physicists... but for whatever reason they have chosen to cut wood and bang nails instead of making nuclear weapons or whatever... so would such a character have dissuaded you?

Downshifting is another story.   I'm learning web design myself, just for the variety.
But tell me, have those carpenters stopped reading and thinking once they started cutting wood and banging nails?  If that's the case, who cares what their background was.