It appears you have not registered with our community. To register please click here ...

!!

Welcome to Russian Women Discussion - the most informative site for all things related to serious long-term relationships and marriage to a partner from the Former Soviet Union countries!

Please register (it's free!) to gain full access to the many features and benefits of the site. Welcome!

+-

Author Topic: RM as Marriage Partners?  (Read 29580 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline AnastassiaAsh

  • Commercial Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 914
  • Gender: Female
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #75 on: December 19, 2008, 06:59:41 AM »
Everything I said is based on my experience, of what I saw and heard from other people and from many other women and not only in Moscow. Of course maybe there ere exceptions some where but I haven't seen or heard of any. Those who found their match, I am happy for you, as well as I am happy for myself and found my beloved man who is everything to me in all senses of this word.

Olga said it not once here and we heard it from others that there is a saying: if a man doesn't drink he is either totally sick or completely disrespects you….something like that. And this is just one of those ‘pearls’ that the society of RM made up.
Yes, some men can raise children and do a good job at it and their wives would work and do a good job there too. But my perception of a family is different and more classic. In Russia though women HAVE to work, HAVE to do what they do most of the time. If their men earned enough, they would probably spend more time taking care of kids or doing something else. Women HAD to accept a role of both a man and a woman in Russia, because RM totally lost it. Again I am talking based on my experience. Father in Russia is everything he should not be, while father in the US is everything he should be. I understand it's the generalization, but that's how I see it.

Siberia, you are wrong, I don't have to justify anything to anybody. I don't feel guilt about anything. All that is important to me is to answer before God. I am sincerely happy for you that you found your wonderful husband and that he fit your perception of a good man. Being true Christian has nothing to do with going to church and being honest, kind and living by the Golden Rule isn't enough either, although of course it's much better than a man living a dishonest life. Your man just fit your vision and that's great. But I couldn't find men who would even start fitting my vision.

SJ, I don't label those who don't fit my criteria as bad men. Where did you get that? These are your assumptions for the sake of an argument. A bad man is the man who abusively drinks, smokes, dishonest, lazy and so on….
Yes, I have very high standards (and there will be no other way for me), and thus it is very difficult to find a man to match even abroad, leave alone in Moscow.

Offline Misha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7314
  • Country: ca
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married 5-10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #76 on: December 19, 2008, 07:14:16 AM »
Substance abuse is rampant in FSU culture.  I also believe that many times your impression on a matter is driven by experience.  You will seek people that are similar to you.  So if you are then talking with people that all had a similar experience with RM, then it is easy to then believe that it is true for all women.

There is the individual experience and then there are the larger overarching trends. Yes, there are always the exceptions, but there are also societal averages. Yes, there are some men that do not drink at all in Russia or very little, but they are the exceptions IMHO. Sadly, there is a lot of social pressure for people to drink.

I will note once again an important social indicator of the health of Russian men: average life expectancy. In Russia, the average male can expect to live to the age of 59.12 years. This compares to 75.15 in the United States, 76.98 in Canada, 78.73 in Japan, for example. Russian men as a group do even worse than all the other men of the FSU: Azerbaijan 61.86, Kazahkhsan 61.9, Ukraine 62.16, Turkmenistan 65.23, Kyrgyzstan 64.8, Belarus 64.32, Moldava 65.1, Georgia 67.1 and Armenia 65.82. The only men who do worse than Russian men are those in Sub-Saharan Africa, a region of the world that suffers from high rates of infant mortality and in some countries a full blown AIDS epidemic.  

Even though women tend to live longer than men in all countries (Canada, for example, 76.98 vs 83.86) in Russia the difference between men and women is huge:  59.12 for men versus 73.03 for women! No other country has more than a decade of difference in average life expectancy when comparing men and women.

Why do Russian men on average die so young? Industrial accidents and car accidents play a role, but one of main explanations is substance abuse and smoking. Yes, there are exceptions, but the overall statistics are pretty grim.

The social consequences of this substance abuse are quite striking. This is seen in domestic violence. IIRC the number of women killed by their husband or partner peaked at 12,000 per year. It has gone down since then, but it is still high at 7,000 or 8,000 per year IIRC. And, of course, there is the other domestic violence that does not lead to homicide, which is also very  high when compared to other countries. This violence, IMHO, can be in part traced back to substance abuse, notably alcohol abuse.

As  noted, there are exceptions, but the social ills that sadly undermine the health and well-being of Russian men and their families are quite deep and widely spread. The one thing that would immediately push up life expectancy would be for Russian men to drink and smoke less.

Source for life expectancies (Wikipedia citing CIA World Factbook): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 07:20:31 AM by Misha »

Offline Ade

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2673
  • Country: no
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: 4 - 10
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #77 on: December 19, 2008, 08:40:41 AM »
SJ, I don't label those who don't fit my criteria as bad men. Where did you get that?

Actually, I got it from your posts. I guess there was something lost in translation there somewhere.

Offline Gator

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16987
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married 5-10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: RE: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #78 on: December 19, 2008, 10:21:40 AM »
No, just a little sarcasm with reference to, "they beat them because they love them".

Sorry, I should have realized that.  And it is amusing amid all the criticism of RM.   I guess I was in a humorless mood at the time, which is rare for me.

Offline possum

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 770
  • Gender: Male
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #79 on: December 19, 2008, 01:12:38 PM »
Quote
So what's a good man:

Tall
Handsome
Master's degree
Doesn't drink
Doesn't smoke
Owns a big apartment
Rich
True Christian believer

That's a pretty tall order, even if we assume that such a man would prefer a woman with all the same qualities.. He might just as easily go for someone who is less academically accomplished but owns more property, or someone who smokes and has a PhD, or any other combination of things.. Not to mention, if he's a true Christian believer it's unlikely any of those things will matter to him as much as the belief system of his prospective life partner.. ;)
Why get a ball and chain when you can get the milk for free?

Offline Sculpto

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4609
  • Gender: Male
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #80 on: December 19, 2008, 01:23:21 PM »
That's a pretty tall order, even if we assume that such a man would prefer a woman with all the same qualities.. He might just as easily go for someone who is less academically accomplished but owns more property, or someone who smokes and has a PhD, or any other combination of things.. Not to mention, if he's a true Christian believer it's unlikely any of those things will matter to him as much as the belief system of his prospective life partner.. ;)

I would also guess that if a Russian guy had all those qualities he would be in super high demand and could really be picky about who he ended up getting married to.  So, it would seem Anastasia created an immpossible situation for herself. 

BTW.. Possum.. how do you react to Anastasias comments about Russian guys?  I know more than a few of us AMs do not agree with her.. I sure don't and found the Russian guys I met to actually be a lot cooler than I expected based on the propoganda I had absorbed from stupid agency sites.

Offline possum

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 770
  • Gender: Male
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #81 on: December 19, 2008, 01:39:04 PM »
I would also guess that if a Russian guy had all those qualities he would be in super high demand and could really be picky about who he ended up getting married to.  So, it would seem Anastasia created an immpossible situation for herself. 

Absolutely, and he wouldn't stay single for very long either.. :D

Quote
BTW.. Possum.. how do you react to Anastasias comments about Russian guys?  I know more than a few of us AMs do not agree with her.. I sure don't and found the Russian guys I met to actually be a lot cooler than I expected based on the propoganda I had absorbed from stupid agency sites.

Anastasia is spewing the same kind of marriage agency hype I've read elsewhere over the last few months, i.e. all RM are baaaaaaaad, all RW are goooooood.. because RM are all chain-smoking abusive alcoholics incapable of having an erection, let alone raising children, while all RW are super smart, super hot little angels with the moral qualities of a Catholic nun. :D
Why get a ball and chain when you can get the milk for free?

Offline Misha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7314
  • Country: ca
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married 5-10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #82 on: December 19, 2008, 01:47:15 PM »
Anastasia is spewing the same kind of marriage agency hype I've read elsewhere over the last few months, i.e. all RM are baaaaaaaad, all RW are goooooood.. because RM are all chain-smoking abusive alcoholics incapable of having an erection, let alone raising children, while all RW are super smart, super hot little angels with the moral qualities of a Catholic nun. :D

True, not all Russians smoke, not all Russians drink, but significantly larger numbers of Russian men smoke as compared to other countries, and Russian men as a whole drink more than the men in many countries. You cannot fall into the other extreme which is to ignore the problems that exist in Russian society.

Offline Jooky

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 969
  • Gender: Male
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #83 on: December 19, 2008, 02:04:46 PM »
The issue that initiated this discussion was that of us foreigners being 'ambassadors of goodwill' when travelling to Russia. I question the 'goodwill' shown by most bride seekers especially those that feel that Russian men deserve no respect.

I don't smoke, and I avoid dating smokers, but how in the hell does smoking make a man a bad husband, father or person?

Abusive drinking is another story, but a man who drinks daily can still be a good father and loyal husband.

So, should we not respect a man because he drinks and smokes? Should we not care about what he thinks when we are guests in his country?

Offline possum

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 770
  • Gender: Male
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #84 on: December 19, 2008, 02:06:46 PM »
True, not all Russians smoke, not all Russians drink, but significantly larger numbers of Russian men smoke as compared to other countries, and Russian men as a whole drink more than the men in many countries. You cannot fall into the other extreme which is to ignore the problems that exist in Russian society.

Right, because cigarettes are cheap and it's not illegal to smoke them in most places.. As for drinking, I'd say that per capita alcohol consumption has to be about the same as in Europe/US, but you're not going to read that on a CIA website for obvious reasons.. As one wise man said, anyone who says Russia is a nation of drunks is either a fool or an enemy.. ;)
Why get a ball and chain when you can get the milk for free?

Offline possum

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 770
  • Gender: Male
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #85 on: December 19, 2008, 02:09:24 PM »
FTR, I don't smoke, but I do like an occasional beer or two.. :D
Why get a ball and chain when you can get the milk for free?

Offline Misha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7314
  • Country: ca
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married 5-10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #86 on: December 19, 2008, 02:16:53 PM »
Right, because cigarettes are cheap and it's not illegal to smoke them in most places.. As for drinking, I'd say that per capita alcohol consumption has to be about the same as in Europe/US, but you're not going to read that on a CIA website for obvious reasons.. As one wise man said, anyone who says Russia is a nation of drunks is either a fool or an enemy.. ;)

Well, the official statistics actually underestimate how much Russians drink. And, it is Russia that suffers the most from its own drinking: one of the main causes of the population decline is the high mortality of Russians. As one Russian demographer said, Russia has a European birth rate and an African death rate  :wallbash: However, if Russians prefer living in a country where men continually live shorter and shorter lives, that is their right.

Offline possum

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 770
  • Gender: Male
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #87 on: December 19, 2008, 02:27:05 PM »
No doubt, excessive drinking plays a big role in lower life expectancy for Russians, but so do the economic woes and the quality of drinking water.. I don't think it's fair to single out drinking as the single biggest problem with Russia, it's not even in the top three.. it is in the top 10, though, and it's deplorable..
Why get a ball and chain when you can get the milk for free?

Offline Blues Fairy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2058
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Female
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married 5-10 years
  • Trips: No Selection
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #88 on: December 19, 2008, 02:35:51 PM »
When speaking of average life expectancy, don't forget to factor in infant mortality, which is still very high in Russia, and high incidence of road accidents which take many lives.  

As to the main topic of discussion - the sweeping statements that RM are largely unqualified to be good husbands and fathers are, of course, absolutely absurd.

Offline GoodOlBoy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2701
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #89 on: December 19, 2008, 02:57:35 PM »
Just one of my personal experiences with Russian men in Siberia.

Many years ago, my wife, at that time fiancee, had her own flat. I was visiting Russia for the 3rd time and stayed at her place.

Her neighbor, a "nice" Russian guy, would meet me out in the hallway everyday with a smile on his face and a glass of "moonshine" (homemade alcohol) in his hands.

My wife had told me he brews this crap himself and sells A LOT of it around the neighborhood.

He tried several times in the hallway to give me some of his "special brew". I told him nyet.

I am from Virginia, and back in the day, I remember people who used to brew this crap up in the hills. You can not only go blind from this crap, you can die from it.

Well, while I was still there staying with my wife, maybe a month or so into my visit there was a news program on TV. There was several dead bodies found in a complex, somewhere in Russia. According to my wife they had drank some of this same type of crap that her neighbor was trying to peddle to me.

I think this stupid idiot was actually using an old car radiator to "cook off" this sh*t.

Oh yeah, he also liked to smack his wife around. I heard her hit my wife's adjoining wall several times. Her "loving" husband was screaming at her, she was crying. We could also hear the child crying in the background. This went on for hours and hours.


My wife said: "This behavior is nothing special. Russian men behave this way. Russian men are spoiled"

I have several other "special" stories,  like the "real nice" drunk Russian man that was smacking around and pushing a woman and finally knocked her down onto the snow, while we were waiting for a mini bus to take us to the city center. That was delightful to watch.

Maybe one day I will sit down and type out some more about these "wonderful" RM that I saw while visiting Russia .
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 03:29:48 PM by GoodOlBoy »
“For God and country, Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo......... Geronimo E.K.I.A.”

Offline Misha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7314
  • Country: ca
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married 5-10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #90 on: December 19, 2008, 02:58:04 PM »
When speaking of average life expectancy, don't forget to factor in infant mortality, which is still very high in Russia, and high incidence of road accidents which take many lives.  

Well, unless male infants die at a disproportionally higher rate than female infants, infant mortality would not explain the huge gap between female life expectancy in Russia as opposed to male life expectancy. Same for road accidents: there might be a higher mortality rate for men on Russia's roads, but I doubt that would have that big of an impact as women are also killed in road accidents. The one other factor which is more likely to affect men are industrial or work-related accidents as men do occupy in general occupations that are more dangerous. However, I doubt this is enough to explain away all of the gap in terms of male versus female mortality in Russia.

Offline Misha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7314
  • Country: ca
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married 5-10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #91 on: December 19, 2008, 03:07:21 PM »
No doubt, excessive drinking plays a big role in lower life expectancy for Russians, but so do the economic woes and the quality of drinking water.. I don't think it's fair to single out drinking as the single biggest problem with Russia, it's not even in the top three.. it is in the top 10, though, and it's deplorable..

So, what would you put in the top three? The problem, of course, is the old "chicken and the egg" conundrum. It is sometimes hard to know what variables are correlated and which are causative. However, if Russian men were to drink less and smoke less, you would have a host of medical and social problems that would be alleviated in Russia.

In comparing Russia and Canada, I can attest to the fact that there is a LOT more pressure to drink in Russia than there is in Canada if you are in a man. If you are in a social gathering with Russian men and they are drinking vodka, there will be a lot of pressure put on you to keep up in the drinking. And this applies to all social and economic and social classes in Russia. The constant toasts also encourage people to drink. In Canada, if I go to a bar with friends, I can easily spend the evening sipping on one beer. I can even drink a coke. There is no pressure.

Offline Diplomacy

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 766
  • Gender: Male
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #92 on: December 19, 2008, 03:15:00 PM »
I heard the top reason was the influence of their MIL for so many years.  They kept asking me if I met me hostage.  I realized I was the hostage with the MIL, but it kept getting said that way lol.

Offline Jooky

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 969
  • Gender: Male
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #93 on: December 19, 2008, 03:51:38 PM »
GoodOlBoy, I don't doubt your experiences, but all that tells me is that your wife lived in a low class neighborhood. If a guy came from overseas and spent a month in a trailer park they'd have a similar view of the US and American men.

It's really a shame you haven't met Russian men of a higher caliber. You probably would have enjoyed your trips better and made some good friends along the way. The generalizations of your wife, in my experience, are simply not true. But if it makes you feel better, go on believing them.

Misha, what age range of men do you associate with in Russia? I've seen the toasts and the pressure the drink, of course, but not so much amongst the younger (35 and under) crowd. Some of the older generation hard drinkers that I met were still loyal husbands and great fathers - at least their daughters sure thought so.

One observation: Of the Russian women I've met through bridal sites, almost all had issues with their father. Either he was not around or an alcoholic or both. These women also tended to have bad opinions of Russian men. However, of the women I've met through other means, either through friends or Russian dating sites, most had good relationships with their fathers, and they were happy with Russian men in general.

That's something to think about.

Offline GoodOlBoy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2701
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #94 on: December 19, 2008, 03:55:28 PM »
....Of the Russian women I've met through bridal sites, almost all had issues with their father. Either he was not around or an alcoholic or both.

I think you just reinforced my point about Russian men's behavior?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 04:00:04 PM by GoodOlBoy »
“For God and country, Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo......... Geronimo E.K.I.A.”

Offline siberia

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 41
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Female
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: None (yet)
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #95 on: December 19, 2008, 04:03:03 PM »
GoodOlBoy, I don't doubt your experiences, but all that tells me is that your wife lived in a low class neighborhood. If a guy came from overseas and spent a month in a trailer park they'd have a similar view of the US and American men.

It's really a shame you haven't met Russian men of a higher caliber. You probably would have enjoyed your trips better and made some good friends along the way. The generalizations of your wife, in my experience, are simply not true. But if it makes you feel better, go on believing them.
. However, of the women I've met through other means, either through friends or Russian dating sites, most had good relationships with their fathers, and they were happy with Russian men in general.

That's something to think about.

Jooky, once again, you say what i want to say but can't articulate it the way you can. My exact thoughts when reading GOB's post. What kind of trailer park did you visit? (figuratively of course). My husband is highly educated, all our RM friends are also, working professionally, whether here in US or in NSK and none, not one, are as GOB describe. I have been involved in FSU culture for over 20 years and altho anecdotal evidence doesn't count for much, my experience has not been what Anastassia nor GOB describe.  
I do not deny that life expectancy for Russian Males is that low, however, bringing the safety factor, accidents, drinking, health care, macho attitude of males, military service, all counts to why it is so low, not just drinking. If you have ever spent time in FSU, you know that no one wears seat belts, they drive like maniacs, and take risks most Americans would never take in driving and in lots of cases.  
I feel bad that the posters have such bad experience with RM but can assure you that not everyone is like that.
Remember the agencies have a stake in promoting this propaganda and so do the women you meet.

Offline GoodOlBoy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2701
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #96 on: December 19, 2008, 04:04:00 PM »
...your wife lived in a low class neighborhood.... It's really a shame you haven't met Russian men of a higher caliber....


Kind of a snobby statement, don't you think?
“For God and country, Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo......... Geronimo E.K.I.A.”

Offline Misha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7314
  • Country: ca
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married 5-10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #97 on: December 19, 2008, 04:06:16 PM »
Misha, what age range of men do you associate with in Russia? I've seen the toasts and the pressure the drink, of course, but not so much amongst the younger (35 and under) crowd. Some of the older generation hard drinkers that I met were still loyal husbands and great fathers - at least their daughters sure thought so.

I was hanging around with people in their late 30s, 40s and 50s and occasionally 60s. I can agree that these men can be great fathers and hard drinkers, but it also increases their odds of dying much younger than they should. Presumably their daughters would want them to live a long and healthy life, as opposed to dying of a heart attack at the age of 50.

Offline Jooky

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 969
  • Gender: Male
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #98 on: December 19, 2008, 04:19:28 PM »
Quote
I think you just reinforced my point about Russian men's behavior?

No, pay attention. That was amongst the women I met through bridal sites, which represent a tiny fraction of the population. It makes sense that the women who've had bad experiences with men back home are the same ones seeking a foreign husband. The vast majority of Russian women are not in this group.

Quote
Kind of a snobby statement, don't you think?

Absolutely not. Is it snobby to say that there is more crime, abuse and domestic violence in US slums, trailer parks and other low class neighborhoods? It's just a fact, and it's the same in Russia.

I spent some time in a low class neighborhood in Omsk with a wonderful girl who also had bad experiences with Russian men, and I saw a bit of what you saw as well. However, even she had some very decent male friends and would admit that not all Russian men are bad.

Misha, I agree that many (especially older) Russian men have health problems due to drinking and smoking. This does not make them bad men, and does not give us course to travel to Russia with disrespect for the people.

Offline Jooky

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 969
  • Gender: Male
Re: RM as Marriage Partners?
« Reply #99 on: December 19, 2008, 04:22:57 PM »
Quote
Remember the agencies have a stake in promoting this propaganda and so do the women you meet.

As would a translator who works with bride seeking clients. Hmmm....  ;D

 

+-RWD Stats

Members
Total Members: 8889
Latest: UA2006
New This Month: 0
New This Week: 0
New Today: 0
Stats
Total Posts: 546400
Total Topics: 20984
Most Online Today: 1404
Most Online Ever: 194418
(June 04, 2025, 03:26:40 PM)
Users Online
Members: 3
Guests: 1235
Total: 1238

+-Recent Posts

Re: The Struggle For Ukraine by olgac
Yesterday at 02:12:07 PM

Re: The Struggle For Ukraine by Trenchcoat
Yesterday at 02:43:09 AM

Re: The Struggle For Ukraine by Trenchcoat
Yesterday at 02:32:35 AM

Re: The Struggle For Ukraine by Trenchcoat
Yesterday at 01:54:04 AM

Re: Outlook for Children of joint Western/FSU relationships by Trenchcoat
Yesterday at 12:06:38 AM

Re: Romantic tours for women by JohnDearGreen
July 25, 2025, 09:28:36 PM

Re: Romantic tours for women by JohnDearGreen
July 25, 2025, 08:45:44 PM

Romantic tours for women by 2tallbill
July 25, 2025, 02:36:21 PM

Re: Romantic tours for women by olgac
July 24, 2025, 11:22:50 PM

Re: Outlook for Children of joint Western/FSU relationships by Steven1971
July 24, 2025, 04:49:21 PM

Powered by EzPortal