Dating Non-English Speakers: Opinions please

[Ulysses]

Right on Chicagoguy,
    We put our energies where our hearts lead...the things in life that challenge and "provoke" us....the spices....so to speak.
And the time????  What else to do in these days....TV so watered down...."reality" shows of what!!!!.....To spend head-down-in-a-book time figuring out what your "wonderful one" is saying beats the hell out of  mowing the lawn for a day or so.
    My recent trip to Kyiv being a testament to such, where misunderstandings went from mole to mountain size in a heartbeat and a promising visit turned very sour.  We were both underestimating the other's language understanding skills and the rush of the time went against us. 
    Bottom line.....it takes a lot of PATIENCE and semi-mindreading skills to make the early processes bear any kind of fruit.  Then that's just the beginning.....to be encouraging to "her" without being too "leading" or "heavy" in direction.  But so very, very often I wished I could have read her mind.....I know the good works/thoughts/ were there.....just not able to flow free. Hindsight is 20/20.....and I lost a very good thing in the end...........

[Simoni]

...most of these deluded romantics are the same guys who look to the FSU because they want a traditional woman - never mind that a traditional woman wouldn't jump into bed or marriage with a virtual stranger - but I'm sure they have some convoluted rationalization for that one, too.

This line that Groove laid down today will be a classic in the future. 

[DonAz]

I think I’ll jump in here with our story,  BUT I DO NOT RECOMMEND THAT OTHERS FOLLOW IN OUR FOOTSTEPS!!!!!!

I met  Yulia over 5 ½ years ago. In fact I met her on the first day of my first trip to Russia . I was the 4th guy to meet her. These guys were much younger then me  and had plenty of more money than me. But she was very interested in me from my photos and letters. Most of which were funny stories about how I thought I was so smart, but wound up with me falling on my face. She really like those letters. Another thing that is out of the ordinary, is she was 22  and I was 47 at that time

 She took two weeks off from work so we spent almost every hour together She did not speak any English but somehow we hit it off right away. We used a translator for several days  and then went off on our own. Yulia did not like having the translator around.

Although we could not get in to much conversation without an electronic translator we some how were able to communicate. When we would hit some rough spots we would call the translator to help us. We were able to understand a few things that way.

Ya know all emotions can be read on your face. I know it may sound far fetched to most people and I understand that feeling.
We did fall in love this way and made the commitment to be exclusive with each other.

I had Yulia quit her job, got her an apartment and had her take English lessons full time. Also I made two more trips over and stayed about a month on these trips living together. Just living an everyday life together. No exotic vacations, just visits with family and friends. Shopping and cooking together. She never asked me to buy her anything. She was able to pick up English pretty quickly through her lesson and with my help.

While I was back home we would talk several times a day and I could see how her English was improving everyday. Of course we would get stumped on many things but we worked around it until we would understand each other.
It took us about 11 months to go through the K-1 process and by then she went from 0 to maybe  a 3 on a scale of 1 to 5.

Once she arrived in August of 04 we were able to communicate pretty good. By the time were married we knew each other for 14 months and we both deeply in love. We over came many obstacle.
But here we  are knowing each other for 5 ½ years and married for about 4 /1/ years married now

She now speak almost Fluent English and knows all the slang and all that.

Ya know when I sit back sometimes and think about how we went through the process, I sometimes think ,was I  crazy to go through this whole thing with her being so young and not speaking English. I believe it is a miracle the way everything turned out they way it has.

I did break some of the ten commandments. I definitely fell in love with her photos. She is very beautiful and could get any man she wanted but she chose me.

Now after all this time we have been together our love for each other has kept growing.

I am well aware of the fact that our situation is like a 1 in a 1,000,00 shot but it worked for us

But again I do not recommend anyone following in our footsteps!!

Like I said when I look back at it all I sometimes think…what was I crazy.

It is a miracle that it worked out for us.

The whole thing could have blown up in my face

DonAz

[Chillidog]

Not to be negative, but how do you guys, who date women with poor English or no English what so ever, intend even to get to know the lady well? But is it possible to really learn smth about the personality?? How do you discuss abstract, non-tangible  topics, like philosophical stuff, is there any sense in life or we all just came to this world without any purpose, what are her views on the world, religion, why does she believe God exists/doesn't exist, how do you discuss books (other than i like/i don't like it), what is good and evil, what is freedom and if it's possible to be free at all, even talking about current economical crisis won't be possible, because one has to know quite a number of complicated words.
My guess will be either all that doesn't really matter for you (love is all you need LOL), or you hope that interpreters and electronic translators will be able to help you out (which again is ridiculous).

Without feeling love and a commitment it does really matter if she speaks English or not? If you don't feel love and our not commited why have any type of relationship?

for us we have never used a translator or interpreter. to learn a person's "personality" this is done mostly by a person's actions and not thru words.

For us we exchange emails every day. her emails are not the typical 1-2 paragraphs they are rarely less than 2 pages and you can thru emails learn what there philosophies are about life and family.

and every Friday, Saturday, Sunday we spend 6-8 hours each day talking on the telephone then move to Skype/IM'ing. Is it pefect NO, but I think it has helped greatly in learning and understanding how each person thinks and feels on many subjects, the two most important for me is her thoughts on family, marriage and what type of relationship/career she is wanting for herself and for her son.

Deep disucussions in regards to "God, Politics... etc" I don't even get into these discussions with my best friends or native family..... maybe I am just not a deep thinking individual?

For me I look at marriage similar to a "dance" do the you move with the same flow and rythm as your partner or are you constantly steping on each others toes. In the begginning I think everyone will be getting their toes stepped on from time to time. But if two people desire it enough, if you have the desire and the patience everything is possible.

but as many point out it will not be easy and there are certainly other roads that offer less resistance. So for me it all comes down to that feeling in your heart and whether you want to take the easy road or feel you have found someone worth fighting for.

[GoodOlBoy]

Deep disucussions in regards to "God, Politics... etc" I don't even get into these discussions with my best friends or native family..... maybe I am just not a deep thinking individual?

IMO, these are GOOD topics to stay away from with FSU women (unless you enjoy  ).


GOB

[Misha]

And even after 1-2 years of the English  classes you will buy for her, her English will not change substantially. And not because she may be a slow learner, but 'cos that's how learning of any language works, from simple to complicated. And it will take years and years to get to the point where she will be able to express what she thinks about all those things more or less clearly.

This is my wife's experience. She did not know a word of English when she arrive (I speak Russian so we communicated in this language and still do). She started taking English courses 2 years ago. Now, she continues to study English (mornings) and works in the afternoon in an after school care program. At work, she has to talk in English and only English all the time with both co-workers and the 20+ children that she supervises. The fact that she can hold down a job working with some very troubled children is proof that her English has changed substantially after 2 years of English classes.

It hasn't been easy for my wife to learn English. Trust me, there have been many tears shed and a few screams of frustration. However, it does not take quite as long to gain some proficiency as you are stating.

True, she may not be able to read and understand the works of Hegel in English in any time soon, but there aren't many native speakers of English who could read German philosophy in their language and understand more than a fraction of what was being said 

[Stepford_Wife]

SW, don't get the blind romantics started - they'll bury you with references to obscure pop psychology "studies" on body language, the necessity of risk in order to find reward, anecdotes about how it "feels right" in their guts, etc. etc.

Well, thanks for the warning, but i guess it's kinda too late But nice to know I'm not the only one with this viewpoint of the problem. After reading a bunch of responses, trying to prove that I'm wrong, I was about to start feeling it IS ok to marry a woman who cannot build a sentence of 8 words

Complex gesticulation. 

I attempted such.  I failed. 

It frustrated both of us to not have a serious conversation, to not resolve misunderstandings, to be unable to say something especially nice about the other. 

At least some people know what i mean. Others probably don't really care that much of all those things.

Stepford-Wife et all,

Am I correct? Only time will tell. But if I bailed out now with language being the reason I would spend that rest of my life wondering if I lost the best thing that ever happened to me.

Good luck to you and your lady! Hopefully she turns out to be what you expect of her.

Right on Chicagoguy,
   
 
    Bottom line.....it takes a lot of PATIENCE and semi-mindreading skills to make the early processes bear any kind of fruit.  Then that's just the beginning.....to be encouraging to "her" without being too "leading" or "heavy" in direction.  But so very, very often I wished I could have read her mind.....I know the good works/thoughts/ were there.....just not able to flow free. Hindsight is 20/20.....and I lost a very good thing in the end...........

And acquired a very important experience, that will now remind you how important language communication is. That will help to find the lady, with whom you will be able to express your thoughts, feelings, to understand her and be understood.

I think I’ll jump in here with our story,  BUT I DO NOT RECOMMEND THAT OTHERS FOLLOW IN OUR FOOTSTEPS!!!!!!
...
I am well aware of the fact that our situation is like a 1 in a 1,000,00 shot but it worked for us
Like I said when I look back at it all I sometimes think…what was I crazy.

It is a miracle that it worked out for us.
The whole thing could have blown up in my face

DonAz

Thank you for your story, you both really lucked out! You fall in love, got committed, and then got to know each other very well. Turned out you weren't disappointed, miracles happen for some people

Without feeling love and a commitment it does really matter if she speaks English or not? If you don't feel love and our not commited why have any type of relationship?

 
For me communication is extremely important either way. I don't fall in love and commit to a person whom i don't know. I don't fall in love with pictures or appearance. Mind, intellect, attitude to life, you name it, are crucial.  And without being able to simply talk, how am i gonna find all that out? By the way he holds my hand? Don't think so.

Deep disucussions in regards to "God, Politics... etc" I don't even get into these discussions with my best friends or native family..... maybe I am just not a deep thinking individual

For me marriage doesn't mean just having one household, having both names on the mortgage agreement and waking up in one bed. It is largely intellectual and spiritual partnership. But opinions as to this subject differ I'm sure.
By the way, "God and politics" discussions, if they are polite, well-reasoned and tolerant, keep your mind sharp, teach to think out of box and broaden your outlook on many things. And i want my SO to have opinions, be able to express them and discuss them with me.

IMO, these are GOOD topics to stay away from with FSU women (unless you enjoy  ).


GOB

Depends on the woman, no need to generalize about all FSU women. I've seen many, that are tolerant, witty and polite  conversationists when it comes to such controversial matters as God.

This is my wife's experience. She did not know a word of English when she arrive (I speak Russian so we communicated in this language and still do).

We are talking about lady's English before she merges into the native-speaking environment, before a man brings her over.

 

You mentioned English-speaking environment. You are right, that will speed up the process greatly, but that means that you have to bring your girl over to the US and marry her. And then in couple years after you got married she will start speaking decent English. And that was exactly my point, how can you marry someone, whom you don't know? So English speaking environment is not really an option, as it contradicts the conditions of the task: to get to know your gf before getting married.

Sorry for such a long post

[Misha]

We are talking about lady's English before she merges into the native-speaking environment, before a man brings her over.

Again, depends on the woman and her motivation. One of our friends married a Canadian who lived in Russia a couple of years teaching English. He also spoke Russian with her, but she took a number of English-language classes in Russia before moving to Canada. She was far from fluent, but she started working a month or so after arriving in Canada. Now she is working as a salesperson in a store. Again, things are not always as grim as you describe

[BC]

For me marriage doesn't mean just having one household, having both names on the mortgage agreement and waking up in one bed. It is largely intellectual and spiritual partnership. But opinions as to this subject differ I'm sure.
By the way, "God and politics" discussions, if they are polite, well-reasoned and tolerant, keep your mind sharp, teach to think out of box and broaden your outlook on many things. And i want my SO to have opinions, be able to express them and discuss them with me.

A partnership such as marriage IMHO must be stimulating both in and out of bed.  Without the ability of understanding properly the wishes, desires and beliefs of one's partner it's tough in or out of the covers.  Been there, done that.. moans and groans simply don't cut the cake.  I can see where a couple 'might' be able to grow together as communication abilities evolve, but as mentioned upthread no easy task and the commitment level well above norm.. if others are involved i.e. kids the odds go to the lotto level very quickly.

[ScottinCrimea]

While some may discover that as her English skills improve and they are able to communicate on a deeper level that they share the same goals, thoughts, ideals and beliefs (not just on a superficial level but on the level I feel necessary for a lifetime partner).  There is just as good a chance or even greater that they will find that they differ.  It's very much like playing the lottery to hope that you will be the one who picks the right numbers.

Just like they advertise the lottery by showing the big winners and ignoring the multitudes more who lost, the same seems to happen here.  It's amazing how many people latch on to that one success story out of a million and convince themselves that it coule be them next.

[groovlstk]

My wife was not fluent in English when we met, she was maybe a 3 on a scale of 5. As odd as it sounds, the benchmark for me was not our long, deep conversations (although we had many of those) but that we could have a full-blown argument and make our points without having it escalate because we couldn't understand each other. 

[ScottinCrimea]

I think my wife was fluent in arguing in English before anything else.  The thing that always won the argument for her(besides the fact that she was usually right) was that she could resort to "I don't understand' when the going got tough.

[kgh]

Isn't is common to learn the bad words first when learning a new language?  That's when patience becomes super important, right?  Often times foreign people don't completely understand the 'bad words' they may know. They may know the word, but not completely understanding the implications or application.

Is this what you veterans have experienced?

[Gator]

Isn't is common to learn the bad words first when learning a new language?  That's when patience becomes super important, right?  Often times foreign people don't completely understand the 'bad words' they may know. They may know the word, but not completely understanding the implications or application.

Is this what you veterans have experienced?

 

What I have experienced is that RW use profanity much less than their AW sisters.  An AM is well advised to speak as a gentleman.

[Simoni]

Isn't is common to learn the bad words first when learning a new language? 

Only if you are a teenager, or immature.

[Chillidog]

would not exchange of letters and IM'ing (Instant messaging) be able to convey to each party involved, their thoughts and feelings and beliefs on every subject imaginable, such as family, career, drinking, religion, politics, personal Zen philsophies....

you learn their interests this way before meeting, such as do you enjoy bowling? reading books? what is your normal daily routine?

could not not also learn of their deeper thoughts and feelings this way as well? would you not know what there beliefs are before they/you become more adapt in the language of each other? Or is it the belief that only in "verbal communication" can you learn of a person?

should I totally discount my 1 hour talking on the telephone and 5-8 hours spent "IM'ing" every Friday, Saturday and Sunday with the woman as totally Hogwash?

for example last weekend (all times Moscow times) we started communication on
Friday at 7pm and ended at 4am (9 hours) . Saturday 8pm and ended at 4am (8 hours). Sunday 4pm and ended at 12pm (8 hours).

[Ranetka]

would not exchange of letters and IM'ing (Instant messaging) be able to convey to each party involved, their thoughts and feelings and beliefs on every subject imaginable, such as family, career, drinking, religion, politics, personal Zen philsophies....

you learn their interests this way before meeting, such as do you enjoy bowling? reading books? what is your normal daily routine?

could not not also learn of their deeper thoughts and feelings this way as well? would you not know what there beliefs are before they/you become more adapt in the language of each other? Or is it the belief that only in "verbal communication" can you learn of a person?

should I totally discount my 1 hour talking on the telephone and 5-8 hours spent "IM'ing" every Friday, Saturday and Sunday with the woman as totally Hogwash?

for example last weekend (all times Moscow times) we started communication on
Friday at 7pm and ended at 4am (9 hours) . Saturday 8pm and ended at 4am (8 hours). Sunday 4pm and ended at 12pm (8 hours).

I am doing a course at work now. They said here only 7% of information we received come from verbal communication. Have you ever experienced mis-understanding regarding some email or text, when you desperately trying to explain wht you mean. My experience is while IM is very important I tend to assume and in a way put words into somebody's mouth, I mean I give differnent meaning to what they say. With my own husband lots of what I though about him really was just my ideas, I interpreted things he said based on my own experience. In reality things were different.

[Gator]

With my own husband lots of what I though about him really was just my ideas, I interpreted things he said based on my own experience. In reality things were different.

"In reality things were different"  happens even when standing face to face, especially when the two people have cultural differences.   

Obviously, correspondence is much less reliable.

[Ranetka]

"In reality things were different"  happens even when standing face to face, especially when the two people have cultural differences.   

Obviously, correspondence is much less reliable.

I find it so difficult to put into words! I am talking about things when he was telling the truth, but I thought something very different partly because I did not understand and partly because of cultural differences, just my life experience was different.

[Gator]

I find it so difficult to put into words! I am talking about things when he was telling the truth, but I thought something very different partly because I did not understand and partly because of cultural differences, just my life experience was different.

The same here.  My Muscovite wife and I encountered much of this.  Fortunately there were no fatal differences in our perceptions.  For example, based on what she was saying and my preconceptions about RW, I assumed that she barely knew how to drive.  When I told her she could learn how to drive on my son's old car, she was incensed.  I later discovered on a trip that she was a better driver than me.

[Gator]

would not exchange of letters and IM'ing (Instant messaging) be able to convey to each party involved, their thoughts and feelings and beliefs on every subject imaginable...

It is not reliable as explained above by Ranetka. 

In multiple cases I have communicated with English proficient women, learned much that made me presume that we were compatible, and then met them.  In almost all cases, there was no "chemistry" upon mixing the two of us together in a beaker.

...for example last weekend (all times Moscow times) we started communication on
Friday at 7pm and ended at 4am (9 hours) . Saturday 8pm and ended at 4am (8 hours). Sunday 4pm and ended at 12pm (8 hours).

Chilidog, you are spending an incredible amount of time.  This shows a high degree of commitment to each other.   Great!  Rather than spending 8-9 hours to do this, why not use an interpreter for an hour?  You will learn more, I promise you.

BTW, what are your plans for meeting her in real life?

[Ranetka]

The same here.  My Muscovite wife and I encountered much of this.  Fortunately there were no fatal differences in our perceptions.  For example, based on what she was saying and my preconceptions about RW, I assumed that she barely knew how to drive.  When I told her she could learn how to drive on my son's old car, she was incensed.  I later discovered on a trip that she was a better driver than me.

Yeah, part of the reason I am wasting my time on this board is that some attitudes and preconceptions are so amusing I can't help but having a giggle once in a while.

[OlgaH]

"In reality things were different"  happens even when standing face to face, especially when the two people have cultural differences.   

Obviously, correspondence is much less reliable.

Not regarding Ranetka's post, by my own life expirience I would not say that in reality things would be different. When I posted my profile on a free dating website I got so many letters from men. The letters that were started with words "I saw your profile... your lips... your eyes" were right away in recycle bin. And even if a man would start his dating process standing face to face with the same words I would not pay my attention to him. Other two examples are: one man started his letter with two questions - how often do I visit a church and do I like American football? and after there was his novel about a church community and a team; other man's letter contained an instruction "my future wife must be and must do". And there was not any cultural difference for me. From one letter I understood that my life will be on two benches - a church bench and a stadium bench, from other letter - whole my life would be under "you must..."  

Some women probably will consider such things as some kind of cultural difference and miss the main information and after they will wonder why their life with a man doesn't answer their expectation or why he suddenly turnes into a controlling pointing finger.    

[Ranetka]

Not regarding Ranetka's post, by my own life expirience I would not say that in reality things would be different. When I posted my profile on a free dating website I got so many letters from men. The letters that were started with words "I saw your profile... your lips... your eyes" were right away in recycle bin. And even if a man would start his dating process standing face to face with the same words I would not pay my attention to him. Other two examples are: one man started his letter with two questions - how often dd I visit a church and do I like American football? and after there was his novel about a church community and a team; other man's letter contained an instruction "my future wife must be and must do". And there was not any cultural difference for me. From one letter I understood that my life will be on two benches - a church bench and a stadium bench, from other letter - whole my life would be under "you must..."  

Some women probably will consider such things as some kind of cultural difference and miss the main information and after they will wonder why their life with a man doesn't answer their expectation or why he suddenly turnes into a controlling pointing finger.    

may be you were more insightful than I was, may be more lucky.

things I meant was I never thought we would be so antisocial and all friends he had were from the times he was younger and lived in a different area. Or when I was so embarrased of our car without realising the car was nearly antic and I should be proud of it. Lots of little and big things.

[OlgaH]

Or when I was so embarrased of our car without realising the car was nearly antic and I should be proud of it. Lots of little and big things.

Ranetka, for me it more looks like a difference in interests than in culture 

About cars.
Honestly, I understand nothing about cars  If I like a car design I like it, if not... I don't  Some antic cars looks so cute  But for example if my Robert had a some ugly looking even so-o-o antic car, I would probably had some uncomfortable contradictory feelings about using the car  and I'm not sure if a history of that car could help me to love it and to be proud of it  Most likely I would be proud to keep it in a garage and time to time to participate in exhibitions