Dating Non-English Speakers: Opinions please

[Ranetka]

кабриолеты-ы-ы (очень бы подошли к моим шляпкам  ) 

не сыпь мне соль на ра-a-a-ну 

Mazda MX5 foreverrrrrrrr!!!Причем старой формы кузов мне нравится значительно больше, что опускает это в мой ценовой уровень!!!! В прошлом году чуть не купила, а в этом уж не знаю, стоит ли. Кризис, зарплата упала на треть, а кредит я не хочу принципиально.

[OlgaH]

Ranetka, I moved it here http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9142.0#new   

[Faux Pas]

I had a 1983 Celica long, long ago. It was the most godawful collection of sharp angles and odd styling but it was extraordinarily reliable. There are still some on the road today.

FP, I believe at the beginning of its lifecycle in the early 80s, the Supra was called a "Celica Supra," and was most definitely a sports car. There was also a sporty version of the vanilla Celica called the Celica GT. It shared the same weak but bulletproof engine as its brethren but handled well due to extremely wide tires (wide for that era).

How come I can remember all this useless crap yet I'd have to pause and contemplate for a few mins. to remember what I had for lunch today? 

I know exactly what you mean. I tried to remember what I had for lunch and it took awhile.  I never owned a Celica but had a couple of friends that did. In the late 70's early 80's I remember it as just a step up from the Tercel but not much. They were sporty looking but not a sports car. I can't say I remember anything other than a 4 cylinder in the early years. Late 80's early 90's I believe they went to a 6 cylinder and changed the body style as an answer to the Nissan X car. I remember not liking those

I'm certainly no historian and not overly familiar with the Toyotas. I did own a Nissan 300 SX. I bought a Maxima and a truck later because it had the same engine as the X. They were excellent engines. I remember the Celicas as good cars but in that time period sport cars to me were Corvettes, Cameros, Firebirds and Trans Ams

[Sculpto]

celica supra = sports car

[kgh]

Hi all,
I'm hoping to get this thread back on track.
Re: Dating Non-English Speakers: Opinions please

Scott,

I know I'm a couple days late, after you steered the topic back.  I totally understand the complexities and I appreciate your perspective. 

I have tried to go with Elena's Models when meeting someone.  I like Elena.  I took a teleseminar from Elena and her guest speakers guiding the 15 or so guys who signed up for the personalized class.  She started from basic differences in dating and moved through many interesting topics.  One thing she really stressed was not to go through the translation route when meeting someone.  She thinks it's healthier for couples to work through communicating from the start, even though she does offer translation services.

So what did I do?  After not meeting anyone that I clicked with on EM, I decided to check out another site.  Started chatting with a woman and felt like we looked at the world, politics, people, philosophy, and more from the same or very similar perspective.  I know you guys know where I'm going with this.  She doesn't speak English.  I have asked very specific questions in my letters and she answers with specific answers.  I don't feel like she avoids topics and I genuinely feel like we are clicking in a great way.  Unlike others that I've talked to with or without translators.  I'm not falling in love with a photo/video, either.  I've know the 10 commandments.   I think she's attractive, but not what I was looking for... I guess.  I was writing letters to 3 other women when she started writing to me and our conversations were interesting.  Needless to say, now I'm only writing her and starting to plan a visit.

If I had continue to focus on English speakers (and didn't go to the other site), I feel that I might have missed meeting a very interesting and seemingly very compatible person.  Based on what all of you veterans have said, I do expect it to be a long and challenging road ahead.  I have even spoken to her about how challenging it can be learning the subtleties of our cultural differences.  We've talked about how frustrating not understanding might be.  Her response  has been that we can work through it and it will make us stronger.  It may be naive, but it's also how I think.

I don't always take the easy route, but isn't this big search for a partner in FSU really about trying to connect with someone who really clicks with you? 

I'm hoping to be able to glean information from you 'veterans' so I/we can avoid normal pitfalls.  Are there common themes that are tough to communicate or that tend to cause frustrations and how have you guys/gals worked through them?

Scott, you're in a unique situation with your wife and daughter.  What concepts was your wife able to adapt to because of a stong English background that your daughter is struggling with? 

TIA,
Kenny Hayes

[ScottinCrimea]

Kenny,  You've given all of the usual rationalizations and justifications for going with a non-English speaker.  I think you understand at least some of the challenges and hopefully you both are ready for them.  It's like if your son decides to try the expert ski run while still a beginning skier.  You try to dissuade him, but once he's at the top of the mountain looking down, all you can do is try to guide him so he doesn't crash and burn on the way down.  At this point I won't spend any time castigating you for your choice and I hope others will be the same, but I will try to help you through the issues as much as I can.

It's still early in my daughter's experience in the US, but some of the differences I see so far between her and my wife are that while my wife was able to jump right into a social circle and work, our daughter is still very limited and only has myself and my wife to converse with. She really can't go anywhere alone and we even feel nervous leaving her home alone as we worry how she could handle an emergency.  It will take her longer to get her driver's license because, not having a Ukraine driver's license, she will need to take a driver's ed course, and even though she can take the picture test instead of the written one, she still has to pass the driving test and understand the commands of the tester.  We have a pretty good bus system, but she needs to understand the routes and if she gets confused she has no way to ask for help.  At this point she basically can't go anywhere alone. Trying to explain basic things like how the appliances work (different than in Ukraine), are a challenge.  Her transition is somewhat easier because her mother is here and I can speak some basic Russian, but you won't have that.  From my own experience going through this there, she will feel a sense of isolation that can lead to frustration and depression and you'll have to find a way to deal with that and reassure her without the benefit of a common language.

Sorry if I seem to be paointing such a bleak picture, but you asked for some of the issues that come up so I'm just trying to provide some so they won't come as a surprise later.

[Gator]

Kenny,

If you marry a non-English speaking RW, she will depend upon you for almost everything for a couple of years.  Do you have the time?  In contrast, my wife was up and about in a few weeks.

[Faux Pas]

Kenny,

I'm left a little confused from your post. You have traveled and met this lady in person? I ask because there is a significant difference in communication online and telephone clicking and clicking in person.

Speaking the same language is not an absolute as many here can be testament to. It just brings about many difficulties in many stages of the budding relationship. It can be done, are you man enough and patient enough is the bigger question.

[Simoni]

I don't always take the easy route, but isn't this big search for a partner in FSU really about trying to connect with someone who really clicks with you? 

Yes, of course.  Without that connection or "chemistry," you won't get anywhere.  But there is much more to marriage than just this physical and mental attraction.  It's talking.  Talking about everything.   Getting to know her. Without a common language, this will be really tough. Of course there are exceptions.  But if you are just starting out and are not committed to anyone, fish in the pond of girls who speak English.

The first year and culture shock is tough enough already.  Pity the poor girl who can't talk about it with you.

[Turboguy]

I have always been one who was never too concerned about a woman's ability to speak English when I was in the searching stage.   Of course the woman I ended up marrying has a better English vocabulary than many American women.

I think if you do find a woman with little knowledge of English it is critical that she is willing to work really hard to learn English while you are waiting for the K-1 to be approved.   If she is working hard by the time the visa comes through you will be able to communicate to a reasonable degree.

I think it is critical that you have loads of Patience.   You will have to deal with a lot of trying issues because of the language.   I would rate myself close to a 10+ on patience so that was one of the factors that made me feel it was less important.   If you are not at least a 9 on a 10 scale I wouldn't try it.

I think her temperament is more important if you are going to marry a woman with limited or no English.  If she is high strung and emotional you will have your hands full.

I think your own ideas of how you want to spend your free time becomes more of an issue.  If it is important for you to sit around and discuss world events and complex subjects then the scales tip to an English speaker.

I think another factor is how important it is to both of you for her to quickly enter the job force.   If she is a highly motived person who wants to work finding any kind of job above scrubbing floors is going to be tough without a good English ability.   If you need her to contribute to the family income then that two makes a non English speaker a poor choice.

I agree with what Elena said about not using a translator.  I met a lot of women with little or no English using a translator and I felt more like I was in a business meeting.  I never once connected with any of the woman.   I met some with no translator and depended on an electronic translator and felt I got to know them much better and felt the connection that to me was necessary.   I do think you need one session with a translator which should be more like a business meeting where you discuss life's important issues and make sure you both are in full understanding. 

[ScottinCrimea]

Turbo,  do you think it is only coincidence that after umpteen years of trying, the relationship that finally worked involved a woman with good English skills?

[Misha]

The first year and culture shock is tough enough already.  Pity the poor girl who can't talk about it with you.

If your wife does not speak English, the culture shock is truly hellish based on my experience. The only thing that helped in my wife's case is that I spoke Russian.

[kievstar]

One thing to consider is that usually people over 35 years of age have a harder time learning language than under.  Should avoid the women over 32 years old with no English.

If you meet a girl, after first face to face start paying for $10 usd per hour English / German etc lessons 5 times a week.  By the time the visa goes through she is well on her way to speaking.  Remember most of these girls know several languages so they will learn English / German etc quickly if they want to.

[Misha]

Remember most of these girls know several languages so they will learn English / German etc quickly if they want to.

Much like they can quickly lose weight if they want to?  :evil: Sorry, my wife was 26 when started learning English, and she had studied German. Now, after 2 years, she can have a conversation, but she still has a couple years to go to get to the point where she can go to university or work in her profession. Do not underestimate how difficult it is to learn a second language no matter your age.

[Turboguy]

Turbo,  do you think it is only coincidence that after umpteen years of trying, the relationship that finally worked involved a woman with good English skills?

Scott, I really don't know.   I met a lot of women with good English skills.  I think it was more of a case that I met a really wonderful woman who happened to know English well but perhaps it was a factor.   If things had not worked out with her when we met the one I would have been the most interested in was one who did not know a word of English that I met on Jack's tour.   

If what you are suggesting was the case and it very well may have been then anyone searching and not caring about the level of English will experience the same thing without targeting one group or the other. 

[groovlstk]

I think if you do find a woman with little knowledge of English it is critical that she is willing to work really hard to learn English while you are waiting for the K-1 to be approved.   If she is working hard by the time the visa comes through you will be able to communicate to a reasonable degree.

I think a wiser approach would be to have her learn English before filing a K1, then again I realize I'm in the minority when it comes to that little detail about getting to know a woman prior to asking her hand in marriage.

 

[kievstar]

Misha, it is well known fact in most cases the younger you are the easier to learn.  I agree if you want fluent at work takes longer but I said speaking not fluent.  Was your wife using a professional teacher 5 times a week and doing several hours a day studying on her own.  I also mentioned taking English seriously.     You have to put the time in to learn. 

Regarding weight (since you brought this up and this is a different thread) I am up 20 plus pounds since February 13th when I bought my wedding suit 2 weeks ago in Kiev.  Got 15 days to lose it or should I go to 300 pounds.   Good news I am flying back tomorrow to USA and have about 30 days off from work (1 week USA, than 1 week Ukraine, than Bali Indonesia for maybe 2 weeks).   

[Misha]

Was your wife using a professional teacher 5 times a week and doing several hours a day studying on her own.  I also mentioned taking English seriously.     You have to put the time in to learn. 

And, you are implying my wife is not putting in the time to learn? That is insulting.

Listen, my wife has been taking English classes every day for 4 hours and spending as much (if not more) time every day doing her English homework. She has also been working for the last four months with children where she has to talk all the time as well as going to class four hours a day in the morning and studying a few hours every night. She has made some amazing progress compared to all the other students. But, it still took her two years to feel comfortable having a conversation on any topic, and she still has a ways to go before her English will be comparable to her English.

[ScottinCrimea]

If what you are suggesting was the case and it very well may have been then anyone searching and not caring about the level of English will experience the same thing without targeting one group or the other. 

By experiencing the same thing do you mean 15 years of searching?

[Turboguy]

Humm, I always thought you were supposed to put a smiley face after posts like that.   

For anyone who didn't understand what I was saying, what I meant was that if you meet a woman who doesn't speak English you may find you never bond with her.    I never really experienced that except when I used a terp.   When I met my first fiancee we used a terp the first two days and I was ready to write her off.   We used notes and an electronic translator the last three days and I felt connected. 

It wasn't 15 years anyway but maybe I enjoyed the search too much.  There were some really interesting times and amazing people I met during my search.  Still it is great to have that behind me.

[kgh]

I didn’t mean to neglect my post.  I didn’t expect so much traffic.  Lol.  Thanks for your replies, guys.  Sorry I didn’t know how to quote from 10 different posts, so I’ve blended it all together into one loooong post.  Really, sorry for the length.  I feel like I'm always saying that.  lol.

Thanks for touching on the ‘little differences’, Scott.  I’m fascinated by the ‘little differences’ in a  ‘Pulp Fiction-esque’  kind of way.  I tend to notice details in everyday life that most people don’t even have a clue.  A quick example…. My friend and I notice an attractive woman in our coffee shop.  She ordered and left.  Of course she was attractive to the point of catching our attention.  When she left I said, “ She had really cool earrings.”  To which my buddy replies, “She had ears?”

Right now, we have been able to have detailed and deep conversations through translations services.  This has allowed us to have move along at a nice pace.  Probably better then communicating with someone relying on their English speaking ability and understand various concepts.  As we’ve talked about earlier in this thread.  Many people who can speak a language have no clue about the culture so many inferences are lost or not understood.  In my other communications with English speakers, conversations took much longer to develop and often re-explaining a phrase or concept obviously trying to avoid slang and euphuisms.  I kind of look at this as giving us a bit of a jump start before the hard work begins.  It has allowed us to move through a basic understands giving us a more clear impression of the other.  Albiet, without knowing how each of us will respond to language challenged circumstances.  I am convinced that I can work through it.  Without giving her any idea of my perspective, she adamantly professed a tenacious attitude and said she would not give up and it would only make our relationship stronger.  Maybe that’s naïve, but it’s nice to be communicating with someone who is at least willing to try something difficult.  My last relationship here became frustrated because we lived 45 minutes away and I drove to see her more often that not.  I know, not the same thing, but it’s the principle.

I’m not apposed to meeting an English speaker, but this woman has captured my interest through how she writes. 

I can see the complexity of your daughter’s experience and the magnitude.  I guess that’s part of the reason it is so important for me to learn Russian.  Even with that, if she has limited English speaking ability when she comes here, it will be very challenging – (hellish- Misha)
Gator, from what Scott is explaining with his daughter, I can see why someone would be so dependent.  I’m sure that in itself can lead to the depression and other complications.  Hopefully, we can work on language skills and get her up to speed before she gets dropped into a new culture in the US.

Scott, your picture doesn’t seem bleak to me.  It’s not that I’m completely obtuse…  ;-) it’s just that it’s easier to get through a tough situation if you expect hardship instead of roses and bliss.  I really am listening to you guys.  I’m listening with interest.  I don’t want to set a relationship up for failure.  And as Groovlstk, stated, I don’t want to propose to or marry a person that I am unable to speak to.  Just for the record, I fully intend to be able to communicate directly with her effectively well before I propose (K-1) and /or bring her to the US.

Faux Pas, I have not met her in person.  We’ve only been writing for 4 months or so.  Not so frequently at first.  Maybe once every two weeks and now daily.  The clicking I was referring to is how she thinks, how she writes, what she talks about.  There is no comparison to anyone else I have corresponded with including American, German, Russian or Ukrainian.  I completely agree that it will still be different in person.  I do feel like the some aspects of the budding relationship have been assisted by the translation services.  We have been able to communicate what is important to the other in our own languages. I really look forward to meeting her in person.  I believe that may answer some important questions.  Chemistry is an important question that will be answered.  I know we won’t get anywhere without chemistry and the ability to talk, Simoni.  I hear you.

Also, I’m still fishing.  I haven’t put up my fishing rod just yet.  I just have not communicated with anyone English speaking or not that come close to the way that she and I have connected.  It happened fairly quickly too.  I was very surprised by how she wrote.  At first I didn’t think she was herself, but I now believe she is writing as she thinks.  I have written to someone for 9 months and thought it was good, but never connected like this.  I know, yes 9 months and I didn’t fly across the pond.  I tried to set up 3 trips, but because of various things going on (that seemed legit) I kept changing when I’d go to fit her schedule.  Then after a trip to Kiev to meet with friends she decided to move there and stop communicating.  I’m pretty sure she met someone in Kiev.   Blah, Blah, Blah, sorry to bore you with that.  Just trying to give you an idea how I got to where I’m at.

As far as patience goes, Faux Pas and TurboGuy, I have been told from many people that I am the most patient person they have ever met.  Granted, slow drivers don’t get my patience award, but when it comes to working with people, I do pretty well.  I’d say I’m at least a 9 on the 1 to 10 scale.  Just as important, she seems very patient too.  I wouldn’t consider her high strung or high maintenance emotionally either.

I don’t really have a plan for how my fiancée or wife will enter the work force.  I’m pretty low on the debt scale and could get along without her working.  Maybe enrolling her in an ESL class at a junior college might be enough work.  Let me know how that works for your daughter, Scott.  I kinda thought she’d have a lot of say in when she wanted to work, she is motivated and I wouldn’t expect her to hang out at home all day.  I figured she’d want to work just to get out of the house, but I’d think ESL classes would be more important, even for an English speaker.

TurboGuy, we’ve talked about having a translator for the first couple of meetings then try to communicate with a dictionary and my pocket Ectaco translator or maybe Google like bobb uses.  If there is frustration without a translator it might be a good indicator of days to come.  I’ll have to weigh that when or if it happens.

I think learning a language really depends on the person.  I love trying not to speak English when I have traveled through Europe.  Some people are just not as excited trying to learn new languages.

Congrats Kievstar, hope it all works out.  20# can be a lot to lose in a short time.  But then, when I was wrestling, I dropped 16 pounds in 36 hours, then wrestled.  Not the best way, but I didn’t starve it off.

[ScottinCrimea]

A quick update on my daughter's ESL experience so far:

We scheduled her for the language test to evaluate her English skills to see in which class she should be placed.  The test was by computer and there were several people sitting in the room waiting to begin.  I got her settled in but had to leave the room once they began.  It started off poorly because she couldn't understand the verbal instructions they were given, but managed to get started.  I was told the test would take four hours so once I saw she was started okay I left.  About 1 1/2 hours later she called and said to come pick her up.  When we arrived we learned that they were just taking a short break but she thought they were finished.  She was frustrated and in tears because she was struggling with the whole process and at one point thought everyone in the room was laughing at her.  It took a lot of consoling and encouragement to get her back in the room, and this time we waited outside in the hall until she was finished.  Her scores ranged from 1A to 2B on a 0-4 scale.  She'll start in the second half of the level 1 course and move on to level 2 in May.  Classes are 5 hours a day, 4 days a week.  My wife commented that she also had problems with understanding people when she first came over, that it all sounded like one long sound and she had difficulty distinguishing individual words.  She understood me perfectly but had to adjust to how others spoke.  I think part of this was because I knew enough Russian to phrase things differently and chose my words. For example, I would always say "difficult" rather than "hard" because it could be interpreted as the opposite of "soft".

Our daughter is not even trying to speak English at this point.  We haven't pushed it because she's only been here a week and she still needs time to adjust without the added pressure of trying to converse in English.  My wife and I speak more Russian to each other now to accommodate her, but we will push the English more once she gets started with the classes.

[kgh]

Wow, Scott,
Thanks for sharing such a difficult day.  She must have been emotionally and mentally zapped!  How interested is she in speaking English?

Where did you and your wife assess your daughter’s English speaking ability?  And where did she think her skills were before coming over?  Did she have any English lessons before coming over?  Knowing what you know now, would you have done anything different before bringing her over?

It sounds like a situation that a guy wouldn’t want to repeat with his SO.   Did you ever have a language assessment done while in Ukraine?  If so, what was it like?

Thanks,
Kenny