TR: Barnaul/Tver, Russia

[Admin]

MASTER Catzenmouse......The "Mental Midgets" are upset, whadda' we do now?  :noidea:


GOB






OH, there is a girl in the front of the mob that thinks you're "number one"........well not exactly. 

GOB,

Let's see what we can ALL do about diffusing, rather than creating (or fueling), tensions.

Whaddya say?

- Dan

[Daveman]

With whatever approach you choose, this process usually takes some time to find the right lady for marriage.  Especially when near misses are involved.  Relations sometimes just die for various reasons... adding to the amount of time and number of trips involved.  Of course learning and honing are an integral part of the process... but I think worrying about the time or number of trips could lead someone to disaster, and supporting the disaster for a decade after the fact.  Just not worth it to be impatient.

[Gator]

Given the two alternatives of proceeding slow or fast, surely almost everyone would choose "slow."

[Misha]

Given the two alternatives of proceeding slow or fast, surely almost everyone would choose "slow."

Well, there are other options. Fast to find the right woman, slow to develop the relationship and confirm that she is THE ONE.

[Daveman]

Well, there are other options. Fast to find the right woman, slow to develop the relationship and confirm that she is THE ONE.

But Misha, do you not see the discrepancy in what you wrote there?  Before she's 'confirmed', she's not the right woman. You can find good candidates rather rapidly, maybe even a possible *the one*, have fun dating and developing the relationship -- but really you haven't found 'the Right Woman' until you view the situation from the hindsight of success.

Am I missing something?

 

[Misha]

But Misha, do you not see the discrepancy in what you wrote there?  Before she's 'confirmed', she's not the right woman. You can find good candidates rather rapidly, maybe even a possible *the one*, have fun dating and developing the relationship -- but really you haven't found 'the Right Woman' until you view the situation from the hindsight of success.

Am I missing something?

Again, it comes to knowing yourself and what type of relationship that you are looking for. If you know what you will not accept in a relationship, you can easily and quickly eliminate those candidates that are not compatible even before meeting or within minutes of meeting. I had a pretty well defined idea as to what kind of woman I would want to share my life with and a really definite idea of the type of woman that I did not want to spend my life with. If a woman fell into the second category, I did not waste my time pursuing a relationship that I knew was doomed to failure, and I did not try to convince myself that it might work out (the error I made in my first marriage).

However, when I did find a woman who  met all the criteria that I had set for a potential partner, I spend close to three months with her to confirm that she was truly the one for me.

Would I have been better off dating more women just to confirm that she was truly the right one? I don't believe it. Yes, I was lucky to have found a wonderful woman relatively quickly, but I also learned my lesson in spending too much time pursuing women that were not right for me or were not into me, before meeting my wife.

There is a saying that states that if you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there. I would add that it will probably take you a very long while before you finally find that place and you will get stuck a number of times along muddy roads in your journey. I personally preferred figuring out where I was heading and was not into taking the scenic route To each his own, but I don't buy that someone who spends years or decades looking for a partner will necessarily end up with a better partner or a better relationship at the end of the day.

[CaptB]

It seems to me the biggest resistance to my "dating analogy"......for "some"....not "all"
folks.......really boils down to "financial state of mind". For the guys such as myself.....and I will include Jerry (my appologies if my assumption is incorrect...Jerry)...the process of dating has most always been enjoyable. In the movie "Parenthood".....I relate more to Steve's (Martin) wife and great-Grandmother........I enjoy the "rollercoaster"......the ups....downs....good....bad.....excitement.....boredom.........its was all good....for me.
For the others that don't enjoy the process.....I can also understand. If you understand (and can accept) the two different mind-sets regarding this process....there really should not be any controversy here. Those in the first group are in no particular hurry to "force" the issue.....and time (ie no trips) is not an issue.
The guys in the second group will find this attitude "foreign" to them........"PERSONALLY". No surprise here. Likewise.....the guys in the first group are going to find the attitudes of the second group ("gitterdone" as painlessly as possible)
......also "foreign". I think for the second group the issue is not really number of times.....but the finances involved in so many trips. Those same folks would'nt hesitate to throw-down 75K on their dream sailboat (me)....Hummer.....golf club fees
(outrageous to me....but then "I" don't golf)......porshe etc. etc. But when it comes to finding a life-partner........spending that kind of $$$ is crazy? Guess it shows where some folks priorities lie  

If you can "accept" that there are two different styles at work. That neither is right or wrong.......just a "preference". That both methods seem to work for the parties involved. I don't think the subject needs to be beat-to-death. I will never feel the way the guys in category #2 do about this process.....I will never try to persuade them to convert their feelings......to those of mine.....in this process. Its not a matter of right or wrong.....just what is comfortable......for you.

As for 15, 20, 25+ trips to find success in this process.....I still believe the resistance is more fiancial.....than any other factor. If you dated (for those group one guys who like the process) 40 AW.....in five years......we would'nr be have an argum.....er....discussion on this matter here. If you could magically snap your fingers and plop yourself over the pond in as many times.....in a five period.....to date....I believe most would agree.....there is "no" difference. But we can't snap our fingers....and transport instantly. There are planes....vacation time (not just the weekend)....lots of travel time.....baggage.....visas....passport.....accomodation etc. etc. I never looked upon these as obstacles......just part of the "ride".

I personally know a half-dozen folks who forked out $30,000 per ........for adopting children from Ukraine. A friend of mine and his wife adopted two....$60,000.

I made 8 trips.....spent 25K.....and included a wedding in Russia. 5 1/2 years married to a wonderful RW........I think of it as the bargain of the century. Travel is always good for me......20 trips....30 trips.......no worries.

As the commercial says.......$60,000 for a boat......$125,000 for a vacation cottage.........$60,000 two kids .........$30,000 for a AM/AW wedding (US)...........a good marriage to a RW........hopefully you would say......."priceless".


Capt B

[CaptB]

Hey Daveman,

Read your TR. Glad to see you are still kicking.....and things are going well for you.


Capt B

[GoodOlBoy]

To each his own, but I don't buy that someone who spends years or decades looking for a partner will necessarily end up with a better partner or a better relationship at the end of the day.

Misha, I completely agree.

I don't "buy" that other theory either.



GOB

[Misha]

It seems to me the biggest resistance to my "dating analogy"......for "some"....not "all"
folks.......really boils down to "financial state of mind". For the guys such as myself.....and I will include Jerry (my appologies if my assumption is incorrect...Jerry)...the process of dating has most always been enjoyable.

It is not solely financial. Some people (and I include myself here) do not like dating. If anything, I saw it as a necessary evil: I did it, because I had to, but did not want to do it more than absolutely necessary. I did it with the aim of finding a woman that I loved to be my wife. Today, I would not trade a nice quiet evening with my wife for the possibility of even 100 dates even if these dates were with the world's most fabulous women.

[OlgaH]

Today, I would not trade a nice quiet evening with my wife for the possibility of even 100 dates even if these dates were with the world's most fabulous women.

 

[CaptB]

Misha,

I would'nt trade it either.....but for me (and jerry....and others)......it was a blast while it lasted. As I said......no right or wrong.....just different tastes.....for the process of dating.

Others,

I almost forgot where I was......for the "nitpickers".......I'll put myself (lovers of dating)
and those of similar tendencies......in category II. And those who love dating "less".....in category I. Don't want it to seem like the category II (formerly category I) guys should be listed first (category I)......implying that to be first (listed)
is the prefered spot to be. I am an equal opportunity category spot lister. Maybe next time I'll use "A" and "B"........or up and down.....East or West......animal or vegetable.
But for this thread I'll stick to......what was that now................


Capt Befudled

[Daveman]

Misha, I agree with most everything you posted in your elaboration.  That makes sense.. targeting your search, not settling for something less.. determining the destination and getting on the right road to take you there...

This is what I don't understand

To each his own, but I don't buy that someone who spends years or decades looking for a partner will necessarily end up with a better partner or a better relationship at the end of the day.

Misha, I completely agree.

I don't "buy" that theory either.

 GOB

I don't think anyone proposed that theory -- unless I missed it.  No one said that the relationship would be better if you search longer.  Most seemed to put in that it takes however long it takes to find the right woman of your target criteria. Some find her rapidly, some take a little longer.  And even when you think you've found her something can surprise you later. Another possibility is that the guy thinks everything is great, she seems to be perfect, develops the relationship and finds later that the lady was 'settling' for him - bang, end of relations... or an unforeseen incompatibility creeps in that didn't reveal itself, even with all the communication, until some point later on the time line and you find yourself suddenly back to square one. (Hell, that can happen even after marriage) Even with well targeted, focused attention to detail.  I think we all agree that it's much better to let it go and start over than to hang on to something less, but sometimes the fact that it *is* less isn't as obvious as one would like.

I think it can sometimes be difficult for those who find success (personally, I measure this at the 5 year married and still happy mark) rapidly to understand the difficulties others can have in the pursuit.  "I did it, why can't you? There must be something wrong with you."  (Hey, it's true, there are a million things wrong with me.. just don't tell her.. she can discover the full story after I'm dead).  It's true that there are some really strange guys in this pursuit, with wild ideas that border on the edge of Wackoland.  Jerry doesn't fit the "Wackoland" profile. I think he'll learn and hone and go for it again making the appropriate adjustments where necessary.



CaptB: Thanks!  I'll actually get around to putting something in there one of these days...

[Misha]

And even when you think you've found her something can surprise you later. Another possibility is that the guy thinks everything is great, she seems to be perfect, develops the relationship and finds later that the lady was 'settling' for him - bang, end of relations... or an unforeseen incompatibility creeps in that didn't reveal itself, even with all the communication, until some point later on the time line and you find yourself suddenly back to square one. (Hell, that can happen even after marriage) Even with well targeted, focused attention to detail.  I think we all agree that it's much better to let it go and start over than to hang on to something less, but sometimes the fact that it *is* less isn't as obvious as one would like.

This is where I would see things differently. I believe that men and women have the canny ability to delude themselves. As you say, the guy thinks it is great, but in effect he is trying to convince himself that it is great. Too often, people will ignore the obvious. I admit this is the mistake I made in my first marriage: all the signs were there in the first weeks, all the problems that we had at the end were there in the first month, however I convinced myself that I had a "great" relationship.

Also, it is important to understand what kind of woman is really compatible. Some men may think they want one type of woman, but really should be looking for another.

I think it can sometimes be difficult for those who find success (personally, I measure this at the 5 year married and still happy mark) rapidly to understand the difficulties others can have in the pursuit. 

I am not saying that the pursuit is easy, but will affirm that the men in the process can make it a lot more difficult than it need be.

Jerry doesn't fit the "Wackoland" profile. I think he'll learn and hone and go for it again making the appropriate adjustments where necessary.

I agree that Jerry seems like a very nice and decent guy.

[Daveman]

This is where I would see things differently. I believe that men and women have the canny ability to delude themselves. As you say, the guy thinks it is great, but in effect he is trying to convince himself that it is great. Too often, people will ignore the obvious. I admit this is the mistake I made in my first marriage: all the signs were there in the first weeks, all the problems that we had at the end were there in the first month, however I convinced myself that I had a "great" relationship.

Also, it is important to understand what kind of woman is really compatible. Some men may think they want one type of woman, but really should be looking for another.

I am not saying that the pursuit is easy, but will affirm that the men in the process can make it a lot more difficult than it need be.

I agree that Jerry seems like a very nice and decent guy.

Absolutely excellent post,  Misha..  and superb points.    Probably an excellent beginning for a thread of it's own..   I'll let that be the last word..  at least from me...

[av8or1]

I have 4 weeks of vacation plus a few personal days. During my search I always combined holidays like Memorial Day, July 4th, etc. and was able to turn what would have been 5 days in-country to 9 or 10 days. I even flew out for long weekends (wasn't as bad as I thought!) sometimes. It's possible Jerry did the same.

You know what....Lately the simplest explanations to some problems I have been thinking about...well  

Thanks Groovlstk.


GOB

GOB, glad you've seen the error of your ways.  And thanks to Groov for replying before I could get back to this thread.  Why folk tend to nit-pick things to death sometimes on RWD is beyond me, but hey, guess that's part-n-parcel with posting here, kinda like accepting the risks of searching for your other half in the FSU.  I can take it though; my posts are intended to help those who are considering this venture, not to incite arguments or have someone go over what I have to say with a fine-toothed comb.  But whatever, if you wanna nit, I can do that too.

The reality is that the shortest trip I've ever taken including flying time was 9 days.  You lose a day going over but you make it up coming back, so in REAL WORLD (please recall that these flights across the Atlantic take place AT NIGHT, which is a time when you usually wouldn't be able to meet with a woman who you don't know that well anyway, so what are you losing?  Not much) terms you're only not-on-soil for one day, maybe one and a half if you want to stretch the argument.  True enough, further travelling in-country increases the delay both ways, but with the exception of my trips to Togliatti, Volgograd and Barnaul, that hasn't been a factor for me really.  So...three basic points remain it seems to me:

1) As Groov correctly pointed out, I've always combined my trips with a holiday and two consecutive weekends.  I can also shift my hours either forward or backward within any given week, so I usually leave on a Friday and come back 10 days later on a Monday.  That's a short trip.

2) I have the option of taking LWOP, which given my financial and personal situation is an option for me, so this increases the number of days I can be away.  It's not much time though; think I took a whopping 8 days of LWOP last year in total.

3) My company (and it's a great one!) is closed the week of Christmas every year.  So we get that week (and a day or two) with full pay and it isn't counted towards your vacation time.  This this brings my total vacation time to 5 weeks and change, not 4.

So OK...do the math and you can see that taking 5 or 6 trips a year isn't a big deal for me.  It's dictated more by the duties I have in my work and to my family than anything else.  As a part-time flight instructor I have students who need my help to complete their training and that has actually been one of the more limiting factors when planning a new trip to the FSU, along with the normal demands of my 9-5.  OK, 'nuff of the details.

In addition, I'd like to be so bold as to ask for less nit-picking and more general-message-receiving if I could.  This isn't a complaint so much as it is a request not to flood a thread with so much of this kind of garbage that someone new to the process might miss the valuable information that I was trying to pass along.  The basics of which should have been:

Russian Pearls = BAD; Lifetime Partners/Tver Angels = GOOD.

Associated with this request, I'd also like to ask that folk be more trusting when someone posts.  I mean, why the doubt in what I have said in my posts?  Do you really think I'm making this up as I go along?  This of course should be extended to others who post as well.  I agree with Capt B completely too...I haven't posted on RWD in a while and it's funny how the same old arguments persist even to this day...

Finally, for those who have suggested help for me, thanks.  I do appreciate your interest and your offer, but I'll pass.  Things for me are quite good in the big picture.  Speaking with regard to my personal dating life, sure, I've had some unfortunate things happen to me that no one could have predicted, but it is my belief that it's all part of the process that will lead me to the person who I will be happy with in the end.  Gotta stay positive and I can't give up on "my dream" of a family life.

For now, I keep a smile on my face, keep my health good (running, lifting weights in the gym), do my volunteer work, help my family when needed and uphold my commitments when I make them (to my students, etc.) and all the while I remain hopeful and faithful that things will work out for me someday.  I've learned from both my mistakes and from the unfortunate events that have come my way; it's all you can ask of yourself.  I post here, as I have said, with the express and sole intent of helping others learn from my experience.  And I hope that what I have offered does indeed help someone someday.  If everything in this thread helps just one person, then it was worth it for me...

But now this is beginning to sound like some kinda therapy session or something.  'Gotta stop.   Y'all be good, take care!

Best,

Jerry

[av8or1]

I would'nt trade it either.....but for me (and jerry....and others)......it was a blast while it lasted. As I said......no right or wrong.....just different tastes.....for the process of dating.

Well said CaptB, my thoughts exactly.  Folk have different tastes for most everything in life, and dating can be included in that list.  I too have enjoyed the overall process of dating, as you have.  For me the uncertainty has been intriguing at times and when attempting to breach the "first kiss" wall (if you will) I still get the "butterflies in the stomach" kind of nerves; but that's a good thing in my mind.  Each has a story.  Heck my first kiss ever came when I was in first or second grade; a girl who was a couple of years older than me (at least) and therefore more physically developed than I was threatened to kiss me for weeks.  I didn't like girls at that time of course, so I rebelled and scoffed at the notion.  One day during recess she chased me down, tackled me and then sat on top of me while two of her girlfriends held my arms out wide.  "I'm gonna getchyou now Jerry" she said as she held by face straight upwards with both of her hands and proceeded to do something that felt like what now seems strangely enough to be like eating oysters, which I only attempted once as well.  She then got up and threw sand in my face, kicked me in the side and ran off laughing with her girlfriends.  As Gene Hackman said in "The Firm", "...children rehearsing for later life."  Hahahahahahaha!   [two minutes laughing...sorry]  It's still side-splitting funny to me some 30+ years later...

Funny story, but I digress.  For all that, I would like for the blast to be in the past, such as it is for you and others.  All things in time...patience...

Y'all take care!  Be good!

Best,

Jerry

[TwoBitBandit]

Jerry,

One of the problems with these trip reports is that as soon as you write one, a bunch of idiots come out of the woodwork and criticize you with the same fervor that fat guys with beer guts criticize professional football players when they miss a pass.  This, in turn, discourages other guys from writing and posting their own trip reports.

(To be clear, I'm not calling everyone who responded to this trip report an idiot; some of the comments on this thread have been genuinely knowledgeable, helpful, and or insightful.. there's really only two or three responders here "worthy" of that label.)

If there's something that's clear about this process, it's this: once a guy has had a small number of trips under his belt, he doesn't really need that much more advice.  He can either figure out his own errors and correct them.  Or he won't figure them out and continue to make the same mistakes.  But if he's the kind of guy that can't figure out and learn from his own mistakes, no amount of constructive advice is going to help him.

In summary: Noli nothis permittere te terere.  (That's Latin for "Don't let the bastards wear you down.)

[av8or1]

Well said TwoBit, well said.

[Misha]

One of the problems with these trip reports is that as soon as you write one, a bunch of idiots come out of the woodwork and criticize you with the same fervor that fat guys with beer guts criticize professional football players when they miss a pass.  This, in turn, discourages other guys from writing and posting their own trip reports.

Perhaps you would prefer that nobody ever write anything in any thread. Only the OP should ever post in his thread. 

[Vaughn]

Oh, come on now, Misha - I don't read TwoBit's statement the same way. It's just when a guy like Jerry, with many
trips under his belt, posts what I considered to be a tasteful and quality TR - right away the doctors show up
trying to analyze a "problem" - which was never a problem in the first place.

There's always room for second guessing, I know, but to submit a poster needs "a sense of himself" based solely
on multiple journeys - well, was quite silly. The same submission could be made for a suitor who's established a
2 - 3 journey deadline for a forced engagement. 

[Misha]

Oh, come on now, Misha - I don't read TwoBit's statement the same way. It's just when a guy like Jerry, with many
trips under his belt, posts what I considered to be a tasteful and quality TR - right away the doctors show up
trying to analyze a "problem" - which was never a problem in the first place.

I personally find the discussion more interesting. If an OP insists that they want no discussion and prefer a monologue, then that is fine. I will just ignore those threads and not read them. 

[Vaughn]

I don't believe Jerry preferred a monologue at all, but was taken aback at some of the speculation.

There's always the Trip Report Sans Replies section as an option. 

[Misha]

I don't believe Jerry preferred a monologue at all, but was taken aback at some of the speculation.

This is a forum, when exactly is there no speculation  :evil: Between Ken's "mental midgets" and TwoBits inferring that some of us are "idiots" I am beginning to wonder why anybody should ever post.  Still trying to decide whether I was counted among the mental midgets or the idiots 

[Vaughn]

There's something to be said about the quality of speculation - if a guy posts he met a girl online, and is asking
if RWD members would recommend a church, chapel, or civil ceremony - I would speculate that some disappointment
is in store.

I missed Ken's "mental midget" post. Don't feel badly for long, or at all for that matter. Just days ago
I was referred to as a "sicko"...  early on in my discussion board life, I was deemed an "imbecile."

As long as my wife loves me, they can call me the Devil Incarnate and I really don't give a flip.