St.Pete's Trip Report Jan 2009

[Sculpto]

Good question Dave.  Frankly I am probably going to have to face that scenario at some point in the future as my GF is at this stage not thrilled about living in the USA.  Fortunately for me I am not rigid in my view of where to live.  

However, I would point out something a person far wiser than myself once said.  If a person is not happy in one place they are not likely to be happy in another.  So, if that scenario presented itself in my life I would examine the possibility that the source of unhappiness is not the locale but rather some other factor in the psychology of the individual.  If I was able to uncover what the cause of the unhappiness is I might be able to take less extreme corrective measures than actually picking up and moving.

Every situation is unique.  YMMV

[Sculpto]

Misha.. on one hand you are absolutely right, but, on the other hand Davej knows what will make HIM happy and there is no reason he should not pursue it.  But, as has been pointed out, it is entirely possible his method was flawed. 

I can totally relate to his situation in terms of being transparent with his intentions.  It is part of the curse that some artists deal with all the time.  But, unfortunately at the beginning stages of any relationship image and perception and their presentation to incur a certain response are probably more important than what is beneath the surface.  You have to get someone sincerely interested in you before they can fall in love with your inner soul.  Davej failed in that respect.  I would suggest if he took the same method with local women he will get the same results. 

Before i got involved in international dating I was meeting a lot of local women from dating sites.  One of my requirements were that they were sincerely interested in a serious relationship that could lead to marriage.  But, when I met some women who had a biological clock ticking to the degree that they were discussing timelines to pregnancy on the first date I was totally turned off.  Why would a FSU women, that knows she is hot, that knows foreign men will jump through hoops, have any different of a response to a man that says he is coming to HER country to find a wife?  If I was her I would think the guy was either a loser or mentally unbalanaced. 

For the record I am not saying Davej is either!  But, I think he let his emotions show far too openly, lacked focus and didn't use good judgement in his approach.  I hope he takes my comments constructively because they are 100% intended as such and I am sure with some adjustments he can find exactly the kind of lady he is looking for.

[ScottinCrimea]

Sculpto. I was in total agreement with your post and cheering you on until I got to this part:

I find GOBs comments about age difference really insulting.  Who the heck do you think you are?  Get over yourself man, you have absolutely no right to make such judgements about anyone, especially in the terms you used.  Mind your own business.  If two people find love with each other, and they happen to be a generation apart, WHO CARES?  It is their life to live, not yours. 
 

GOB is perhaps extreme about how he expresses his opinions, but his points on this matter deserve to be considered.  I understand your feelings of insult as your GF is in the low 20's and many here have expressed their concerns regarding this.  You have chosen to ignore the opinions of those more experienced than you and have stubbornly clung to the rationalizations that your situation, your woman and you are "unique".  The reality is that the age and generational difference DO make a difference, whether you choose to see this or not.

I have considered your posts and I am going to be very straightforward about my opinions.  I have thought long and hard about whether I should express my opinion or not. Whether you choose to consider this as only my opinion or whether it leads to some introspection is entirely up to you.

I understand that your lifestyle is "unique' to say the least.  I also understand that you have searched long and hard for a woman who would accept this lifestyle. I understand that the only women who would consider this lifestyle are those who are still searching for what they want in regards to the ultimate lifestyle that they will lead and I understand that such a woman will be in her early 20's. You have avoided stating her age which suggests that you understand that this is a valid issue and you choose to avoid discussion about this. I understand that you have found such a woman who, by your posts, seems to be a practical woman but who is open to an alternative lifestyle. I am not sure about what she really understands about the life style that she will be expected to lead but I see that she feels that you understand about her lifestyle and needs and are willing to accept whatever she says on this. From this point it devolves to conjecture based on my life experience, which you can consider or choose to ignore.  You are willing to overlook questional behavior and rationalize questionable behavior on her part because you fear that you will have difficulty finding anyone who would accept your lifestyle as much as she seems to have.  The real issue is that your alternative lifestyle is the most important thing to you and dictates who you choose to be involved with.  She, in turn, is searching (subconsciously) for someone who will accept her mood swings and not run away.  Her father has been the one stable force in her life.  Now that he is dying, she is desperate to find something else and she is testing you to see if you can be that.  So far you have passed the tests, but more are to come, expecially if he dies.  The fact that she doesn't want you to visit her home town suggests that she still doesn't see you as the ultimate stabilizing force.

This next visit will perhaps resolve the issues about your ability to resolve her current emotional needs, but her ultimate willingness to allow you to assume the role of her father and her ability to accept your alternative lifestyle are issues that are still outstanding.

[Ade]

Perhaps it could be viewed as being deceptive, but, each of those ladies should have been made to feel that she was VERY important to you before you arrived in Piter to meet them.  You are an artist visiting an art city.. that should have been your "main reason" for being there and meeting with some nice "friends" that you had arranged in advance would have left you with more mystery and intrigue which would have offset the fact that you were not as available as they might have wished you to be.  Ladies want to be "wooed" and creating a mystique, especially that of an artist, could be your ace in the hole if you play it right.   

I disagree with a lot of what you've said in the posts above but I will focus on this for now.

If guys can't take responsibility for the VM approach and its pitfalls they shouldn't be doing it. "Could be viewed"? Come on Sculpto it's a blatant lie. I have to shake my head when the first thing a man does with a woman that they want to trust them is to lie. Good start. 

And yes, a VO may fall on its face within the first 2 minutes but then there are alternatives, things called bars, clubs, museums, agencies and many other places, even grocery stores, where men and women still meet - whoda thunk it ey? You can actually meet other women in the good ol' fashion way.

So, to summarize, if a guy explicitly or implicitly misleads (aka lies to) a woman they are visiting because they aren't man enough to own up to what they are doing, they deserve all the misfortune that comes their way.

[Vinnvinny]

In every case, he was not a high priority with these women.  Given the option to see him or do something else, they chose to do something else.  This can have a number of reasons, certainly one of which is related to his age, but maybe more important is that he didn't seem to place any of them high on his priority list and I'm certain that they sensed that. 

Good post Scott except if don’t think it’s necessarily De facto that a 25 year old woman would chose to do something else just because the man pursuing her was 41. Brad Pitt and Johnny Depp are both 45 and I figure most 25 year olds would fit them into their schedule, sooner rather than later. 

I didn't state this as being in any way de facto.  Assuming, however, that the OP has neither the money nor the looks of Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp, I do think it has to be a consideration.

Ok. In that case I will re-read your comment as being:

“In every case, he was not a high priority with these women.  Given the option to see him or do something else, they chose to do something else.  This can have a number of reasons, certainly one of which is could possibly be related to his age, but maybe more important is that he didn't seem to place any of them high on his priority list and I'm certain that they sensed that.” 

.... and I agree.

[Misha]

“In every case, he was not a high priority with these women.  Given the option to see him or do something else, they chose to do something else.  This can have a number of reasons, certainly one of which is could possibly be related to his age, but maybe more important is that he didn't seem to place any of them high on his priority list and I'm certain that they sensed that.” 

.... and I agree.

They just didn't sense it, they did the math and knew it. When the one woman, for example, was told that he could not meet her for the next three evenings, she knew that she was at the very least fourth on his list.

[Gator]

As to why your search yielded such minimal results... I have to agree that these ladies did not feel important enough.  I am sure they felt as an afterthought and were not motivated because of this.  Some might have even been insulted.

Daveyj failed primarily because:

1.  The RW he met were not serious at this stage of their life about marrying a foreigner.   Daveyj's pre-trip correspondence failed to determine their level of seriousness, which should have been an important consideration given their youth and artistic personality.

2.  For unknown reasons the RW did not find Daveyj interesting enough.  Each gave him such lame excuses (friend is ill so all of us are staying home tonight, need to study, I have an ad to sell my keyboard and someone is coming by tonight to look at it, I went to a fabulous party and am now hungover, etc.).  One even rubbed his nose in it.   RW are busy, particularly those with children, and to meet me, most went to great pain to clear their schedule.  In contrast, Daveyj's RW could not take the simplest measures to meet him.

[2tallbill]

Maybe I'm hallucinating but I'm almost positive that just after that bit of my posted you selectively edited I said;

Yeah guilty. I applied what somebody else said and painted you with part of it.
I screwed up, I apologize.

[Sculpto]

If guys can't take responsibility for the VM approach and its pitfalls they shouldn't be doing it. "Could be viewed"? Come on Sculpto it's a blatant lie. I have to shake my head when the first thing a man does with a woman that they want to trust them is to lie. Good start. 

And yes, a VO may fall on its face within the first 2 minutes but then there are alternatives, things called bars, clubs, museums, agencies and many other places, even grocery stores, where men and women still meet - whoda thunk it ey? You can actually meet other women in the good ol' fashion way.

So, to summarize, if a guy explicitly or implicitly misleads (aka lies to) a woman they are visiting because they aren't man enough to own up to what they are doing, they deserve all the misfortune that comes their way.

Perhaps my writing was too hasty to commnicate what I meant.  I am not suggesting lying, but rather discretion.  Would you walk up to a stranger you met ina club, museum, cafe, street, and when asked what youa re doing in Russia tell her that you are searching for a wife?  I doubt it.  So, my point was simply that if a guy is using alternative methods for finding contacts he should not reveal the ultimate goal until there is a level of trust in the girl that when expressing the desire for marriage she would not be freaked out by it.  I hope that clears it up...

[Sculpto]

Sculpto. I was in total agreement with your post and cheering you on until I got to this part:

Scott..lets not hijack this thread.. I am going to respond over in my journalist thread as I have some new information that might clear things up.  It did for me.

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott..lets not hijack this thread.. I am going to respond over in my journalist thread as I have some new information that might clear things up.  It did for me.

I agree.  I apologize for my weak opportunistic moment.

[Ade]

Perhaps my writing was too hasty to commnicate what I meant.  I am not suggesting lying, but rather discretion.  Would you walk up to a stranger you met ina club, museum, cafe, street, and when asked what youa re doing in Russia tell her that you are searching for a wife?  I doubt it.  So, my point was simply that if a guy is using alternative methods for finding contacts he should not reveal the ultimate goal until there is a level of trust in the girl that when expressing the desire for marriage she would not be freaked out by it.  I hope that clears it up...

I don't think your analogy of talking to absolute strangers fits this at all even disregarding the bizarre comment about "searching for a wife". These are women that have been written to for some time and there's almost always certain expectations that are engendered from that.

If the guy communicates with a woman for the first time while on the ground through an agency then there will be a mutual understanding that both are probably seeing others; it would be a naive to think otherwise after all.

However, when communication starts well beforehand there are no such de facto understandings and I don't think it would be at all surprising if, unless otherwise stated, the woman expected to be the only one on the man's visit list. To sugar coat the truth by being "discrete" as you call it is just another way at deception. I just don't see why men have such a big issue with being open and honest from the get go. If the women are then offended and strike you off at least you will have respected her choice not to be one of many.

[Misha]

Would you walk up to a stranger you met in a club, museum, cafe, street, and when asked what you are doing in Russia tell her that you are searching for a wife?  I doubt it. 

Well, it depends on the conversation and its rhythm. You would have to establish a bit of flirtatious banter first. You could answer that you heard that Russian women were the most beautiful women and wanted to see for yourself, then the follow-up would depend on how she reacted and what she then asked. If she responded in a flirtatious manner that you probably were only looking for a lover, then you would respond that you are a decent guy only interested in a wife, etc... So, in theory, it is possible.

[BC]

Well, it depends on the conversation and its rhythm. You would have to establish a bit of flirtatious banter first. You could answer that you heard that Russian women were the most beautiful women and wanted to see for yourself, then the follow-up would depend on how she reacted and what she then asked. If she responded in a flirtatious manner that you probably were only looking for a lover, then you would respond that you are a decent guy only interested in a wife, etc... So, in theory, it is possible.

Can be as easy as sitting at a busy cafe and offering to share your table with a couple of beautiful girls wondering where to sit.

Happens all the time..  but you would be surprised how many don't even consider the option.

[Sculpto]

I don't think your analogy of talking to absolute strangers fits this at all even disregarding the bizarre comment about "searching for a wife". These are women that have been written to for some time and there's almost always certain expectations that are engendered from that.

If the guy communicates with a woman for the first time while on the ground through an agency then there will be a mutual understanding that both are probably seeing others; it would be a naive to think otherwise after all.

However, when communication starts well beforehand there are no such de facto understandings and I don't think it would be at all surprising if, unless otherwise stated, the woman expected to be the only one on the man's visit list. To sugar coat the truth by being "discrete" as you call it is just another way at deception. I just don't see why men have such a big issue with being open and honest from the get go. If the women are then offended and strike you off at least you will have respected her choice not to be one of many.

SJ.. I totally understand the point you are trying to make and why you are not feeling mine.  I still think you don't get my point.

I have found that many if not most FSUW do not believe ANYTHING a man says.  How many of us have heard "all men liers" ?  If you haven't heard that I don't think you are going to the same FSU as I have been to.    For whatever background reasons there is a massive distrust of men from the start.  From my perspective, if you are corresponding with women who are not in agencies, to bring up the goal of marriage early ina correspondence makes you out to be an idiot or a potential scammer/PUA.  (and not a very good one)  Promise marriage, get laid, disappear.  That is what is going through the JADED mind of the FSUW when a man makes such statements.  Things need to evolve before such serious topics are brought to light. 

Now, if a lady happens to ask.. "why you not married" that is a different scenario altogehter.  What a great moment to express sincerely that you wish you were married.  But, you should still not be directing it to "married to you" with your correspondent.  You don't know her, its an online correspondence that might lead to romance, but it is also a good time to express intent to visit and so on and gauge her real interest in meeting "you". 

BTW.. I do suggest some of the guys here invest in one to the PUA books.  While these books are designed for men who want to get with lots of women, with slight adjustments many of the techniques are very usefull in attracting the right marriagable woman.  If you think the ladies aren't using every "weopon" available to them to attract a good man you would be naive, so, as men, why shouldn't we arm ourselves with education and skills that can help us attract and discern a good woman?

[Sculpto]

Well, it depends on the conversation and its rhythm. You would have to establish a bit of flirtatious banter first. You could answer that you heard that Russian women were the most beautiful women and wanted to see for yourself, then the follow-up would depend on how she reacted and what she then asked. If she responded in a flirtatious manner that you probably were only looking for a lover, then you would respond that you are a decent guy only interested in a wife, etc... So, in theory, it is possible.

Absolutely true Misha, but, in that scenario should a guy expect that just because he met some nice ladies at the cafe and the conversation you described took place that the ladies would suddenly change their opinions of men in general and jump through hoops to get the guy to marry her?  Come on now.. now you are in the realm of chemistry and curiosity and getting a date should be easy, but, its going to take a LOT of proving to demonstrate to the lady that your comment about marriage is serious and anything more than empty words.

[Misha]

Come on now.. now you are in the realm of chemistry and curiosity and getting a date should be easy, but, its going to take a LOT of proving to demonstrate to the lady that your comment about marriage is serious and anything more than empty words.

And what do you propose? Going immediately to the ZAGS to arrange a wedding? The fact of the matter is that relationships grow over time. In this hypothetical case you ask for a date. If you both like each other, you ask for a second. At some point you propose to her for real and if she is in love with you and satisfied that you are the man for her, she says yes. Why is this concept so complicated?

[Sculpto]

And what do you propose? Going immediately to the ZAGS to arrange a wedding? The fact of the matter is that relationships grow over time. In this hypothetical case you ask for a date. If you both like each other, you ask for a second. At some point you propose to her for real and if she is in love with you and satisfied that you are the man for her, she says yes. Why is this concept so complicated?

Aren't we saying the same thing here?  I think we are.

[Misha]

Aren't we saying the same thing here?  I think we are.

You made it sound as if it was not possible to simply go out and date women in Russia. If you are saying that it is possible to simply meet with women at a museum or wherever, flirt with them, arrange a date and take it from there up to and leading up to marriage, then we are in agreement. You seemed to want to deny this possibility. If I misread you, then mea culpa.

[Sculpto]

You made it sound as if it was not possible to simply go out and date women in Russia. If you are saying that it is possible to simply meet with women at a museum or wherever, flirt with them, arrange a date and take it from there up to and leading up to marriage, then we are in agreement. You seemed to want to deny this possibility. If I misread you, then mea culpa.

I didnt intend for that meaning.. not sure how you got that except being contrarian to everything I say    JK.  I spent a month in Donetsk 3 1/2 years ago dating women I men on the park bench, the cafe, the nightclub.. didn't meet any in the museum though but the museum in Donetsk kind of sucks.  Though, the docent was really excited to have a visitor, especially an artist from USA.  I was lucky on that day that my Nigerian friend was with me and could translate.  In all my travels and museum visits.. well over 400, I have never had such an awesome tour of a museum.    Too bad the docent was older than my Mom and looked like my grandmother. 

[Wienerin]

You made it sound as if it was not possible to simply go out and date women in Russia. If you are saying that it is possible to simply meet with women at a museum or wherever, flirt with them, arrange a date and take it from there up to and leading up to marriage, then we are in agreement. You seemed to want to deny this possibility. If I misread you, then mea culpa.

I'm not much familiar with relevant dating practices for males in Russia, but I can vouch - by my own experiences and that of my friends and acquaintances (coworkers and others) for some from the woman's side.

These differ - both by the age and social group and end goals. Some of those are no longer relevant because of changes in the last years that I'm no longer in Russia.

I will live alone the most traditional - college and workplace acquaintances (and related, of course, - as meeting someone at a party by a college or work friend). These are certainly not relevant.

Going to an officers club or military academy  dances - the usual haunts for girls from out of town (the officer were perceived as good and reliable providers, with lower divorce rate and mostly in search of a wife before graduation and going somewhere for their first commission), fell mostly out of vogue with the decline of the Soviet Empire and general destitution of the services. Also not relevant

But educated, intelligent and - as per subj. - "artistic" girls (especially not in the first flush of youth, from out of town, i.e. without a circle of friends of similar persuasion and in occupations where there was|is very small percentage of marriageable male - in schools, libraries, many of humanities research instututions or academia) went for this purpose (as well as by inclination and for the pleasure) to the concert halls, theaters, museums, frequented excibitions etc. Even the Saltycov-Schchedrin Public Library (better the re4search sections ) wasn't such a bad place

So I'd be inclined to say that a cafe - no rather than yes. A good and popular excibition or a concert (of the sort of music a guy himself likes) - a definite yes. Or Hermitage, Russian Museum... A nice, cultured, helpless foreiner, lost in a big strange city, seeking for a frienly and congenital soul - by timidly and politely accosting a nice young woman (usually a couple or three girlfriends - which isn't at all bad for a first approach), engaging them in a little chat with - now it would be OK - an offer of a cafe after they've seen|heard what they've come to see|hear - and who knows?...

Definitely better BTW than "sitting all alone in your room"

[Misha]

So I'd be inclined to say that a cafe - no rather than yes. A good and popular excibition or a concert (of the sort of music a guy himself likes) - a definite yes. Or Hermitage, Russian Museum... A nice, cultured, helpless foreiner, lost in a big strange city, seeking for a frienly and congenital soul - by timidly and politely accosting a nice young woman (usually a couple or three girlfriends - which isn't at all bad for a first approach), engaging them in a little chat with - now it would be OK - an offer of a cafe after they've seen|heard what they've come to see|hear - and who knows?...

Definitely better BTW than "sitting all alone in your room"

Here, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[Chicagoguy]

Maybe check out the Internet Cafes. There are always many girls/women in there. Some of these are more casual coffee shops also.

And sneak a peak at their screen. If they are using English maybe that would be a starter for conversation. You can offer to help ?  Or conversly, you can position yourself so they can see you typing in English.

But my days are over. My fiancee has a visa interview in Moscow on April 2.

[daveyj]

Since things have quietened down a little bit here, I figured I should clarify some misunderstandings/mis-statements.

In no particular order, I'd like to address the following:

Ages
In the same way that a person is not defined solely by their ethnicity, language, height, or weight, I think we all agree that a person's age does not solely define them.  At the same time, it is indeed a useful proxy for many personal qualities. 

I had referenced "under 30" and didn't include a lower end to the range, and thus I apologise for the time unnecessarily spent by various posters debating the 40/20 issue.  I fully agree that a 20 yr old is almost certainly too young for me to build a successful marriage.  My "target" range was for a posted age of 25-30.  I reference "posted age" as I presume that FSU women are the same as Western women, and are inclined to understate their age. 

As per my original post I contacted a large number of women via the various sites and although most were 25-30, there were also some 30+ and some under-25.

The ages of the women I came to Piter to see were 23-27.  I recognise that is lower than my target range, but that is simply the way it worked out.

Having said the above, I must also admit that "K" (the university student) was in fact 21.  I point out that as per my original post, I made plans to meet with her only after the other ladies started disappearing/cancelling during my trip.   I also point out that I myself stated in my report that although I think very highly of her (and think she is entirely serious minded) nonetheless she is too young for me.   

One final point about "K".  There was some discussion about my chasing hung over students.  "K" was the only student that I met, and she was never hung over.  As per my original report it was "T" who was hung over, and she is not a student but rather works professionally (as per my original report)

Time Spent Alone
In my original report I commented about spending time alone.  My intention was to state that I spent the time without any company, and not to suggest that I spent the evening alone in my apartment. 

I did not spend any evenings alone in my apartment, except for the final day when I simply did not have any more enthusiasm left.

On day 2 (after "T" cancelled the nightclub) I went out to Magrib.  Yes, I understand it is a cheesy expat barsfor tourists.  But I was on short notice, it was in my area, and I figured that people would speak english there.  It was pretty empty, but I enjoyed dancing (by myself unfortunetly). 

On day 6 I went to Club Rossi, and once again enjoyed some time on the dance floor.  I had several brief conversations with various people (ok, mostly pretty girls), but my poor Russian speaking put an end to those pretty quickly.  The only person I encountered there who spoke good english was a 50-ish cougar (well preserved to her credit) who came up to me.  After confirming that I was on my own, she quickly (3 minutes?) enquired about where I was staying and upon hearing I was in a nearby apartment she suggested that we should go back and "have some fun".  Not only was I not attracted to her, but seemed quite obviously a semi-pro, and I declined here offer as graciously as I could.  She didn't seem too concerned, and left almost immediately.  I returned to Rossi on Day 8 (with "K" and friends) and I saw this same lady there, and I don't think I've mislabeled her to describe her as a semi-pro.

On day 7 I went to Central Station (a gay bar).  Sorry if that shocks some of you, but not only is there a large gay community in my hometown, but I also know a lot of people who "are" gay, lesbian and even transgendered. For me, it is not that big a deal.   Just as there are often some gay people in a straight bar, there are also straight people in a gay bar.   While there, a very drunk girl tried to pick me up.  (yes, I am sure she was a girl, ha ha).  She stumbled over with her girlfriend with her, and was delighted when I confirmed that I was straight.  I wasn't attracted to her  as she was somewhat more rubenesque than I prefer and also very drunk.  But my ego was somewhat bruised by this stage of the trip, and I was happy for the company.  She quickly dragged me onto the dance floor, with her somewhat bemused girlfriend coming as well.  Unfortunetly this girl was an absolutely terrible dancer and she began to clumsily attempt to bump-and-grind me with no discernable sense of rhythm (to the amusement of the others around us).  After a couple of songs I'd had enough, and I dutifully bought a couple of glasses of champagne for her and her girlfriend.   I spent another hour or so there dancing in front of the large 6'high speakers, and it reminded me of my university days when my friends and I would go to a nightclub, trip on E and lean against some huge superbass speaker and vibrate with the music.

I realize now that I forgot to mention my "guide".

Prior to coming to Piter, I had scoured various discussion boards for a local guide/translator.  I emailed three of them, and two responded asking for more details.  I responded as requested and one of the two replied and confirmed his availability, and I sent him my cell #.  Once I arrived in Piter I had intended to email him, but my internet wasn't working in my apartment until day 4, and over the course of my various treks to the internet cafe I simply forget to email him.  On day 4 I received a phone call from him, and I advised I would be in touch about possible plans for the weekend.  On day 6 (when I had the cancellation from "K") I attempted to call him (using the number stored in my cell).  However to my chagrin I realized that a couple of days earlier I had transferred my SIM card from my GSM phone to my Russian phone (because the former did not read cyrillic text messages).  Unfortunetly this meant I had lost his phone number.  I emailed him asking him to call me, as I wanted a guide/translator to go out with.  But I never heard back from him.  I mention this because he was intended to serve as my failsafe backup plan.

During this trip, I was surprised at how much quieter Piter was, when compared to my prior trip.  Maybe it is just the effect of winter, or perhaps the crisis is having a big effect.  I saw recently that the City government has cut its budget by 25%.

I recognise that my choice of bars could have been better. However, I did indeed review various websites (the SP Times, the Oksana's guide) and also my Lonely Planet book.  It seemed like a surprising number of the bars/clubs/restaurants I wanted to go and visit were closed.

Besides which, I had come to Piter to spend time with a pre-selected group of women who had demonstrated interest in relationship with a foreign man.  After the various "email silences" prior to my trip, and the various cancellations during the trip, I didn't have a lot of optimism about my prospects for finding someone special by just wandering around.  (although, ironically, it is exactly this way that I met "Y" during my first trip)

The "Depth Chart"
Some have speculated that "T" kept cancelling because she was offended at being fourth on the depth chart, or because I withheld the details about the other women I was seeing. 

This is not the case. 

"T" was actually first on the depth chart (excluding "Y", who had already "excused" herself some weeks earlier).  I emailed "T" a week before my arrival suggesting either Day 2 or 3.  I didn't suggest Day 1 only because I figured I'd be tired.  I also provided her my phone number, and asked for hers and suggest that we chat on the phone prior to my arrival.  Unfortunetly, as of 2 days prior to my arrival I had not hear back from her and figured she had bailed on me (as had several others).  At this point, while on a Mamba chat, I made plans with the two Mamba girls (who ended up going email silent).  The day before my arrival I received a response from "T" advising that Day 2 or 3 was good for her, and suggesting I call when I arrived.

Once I arrived I called her, and advised I couldn't see her on Day 2 or 3 because I had made other plans those evenings because I had not heard from her until the night before my arrival.  I suggested daytime on Day 2 or 3 (ie Sat or Sun aft), or Day 4 eve.  She told me to call the next day.  The next day I called (as per my original post).  When we met for dinner on Day 3 I was 100% open with here about the other ladies I was seeing.  I told her about "Y" and that I had met her back in October, but that she had advised she wasn't interested.  In my subsequent phone calls and message with "T" she would ask about the other girls, and I answered her honestly including telling her about "Y's" engagement. 

In my final conversation with "T" she expressed genuine surprise that I would read meaning into her continued cancellations, and encouraged me to message her and hoped we could spend more quality time together in a future trip.  I dutifully emailed her after I got back home.  However in the month since my trip she has only logged on to Elena's once (as compared to 2-3 times a week prior to my trip), and my message to her remains unread. 

I was the first man to visit her, and I think she realised she was confused about whether she wanted a foreign man and perhaps has no chosen to pass on that option.  Or perhaps the news about "Y's" engagement spooked her and made her worry she was participating in a wooing process with higher expectations than she felt comfortably with?  I don't know.  Maybe she doesn't either.

Ironically, I think it was "K" (the university student) who would have had just cause to feel like she was low on the depth chart.  I did not spend my time messaging her prior to my trip, and called her at the last minute.  I think her cancellation on Day 6 was 100% fair, as she did indeed have an exam to study for.   

However "K" did not show any jealousy, but rather showed herself to be a remarkably mature and classy young lady.  Contrary to the suggestions that none of the ladies were interested in going further with me, I think that "K" was indeed interested.    "K" had enquired about meeting me the evening of Day 9, and I advised I couldn't because of my prior commitment.  I think I made a great impression with her and her friends, and she was disappointed we wouldn't meet the next day.  However, as mentioned above, I could see that she was too young for me.  After the cancellation from "T" I could have called "K".  But at this point I just didn't have any more enthusiasm for the whole process.

Why Piter?
I fully agree that there are likely many women in other cities throughout Russia and the Ukraine that would be a good match for me.  My thought in visiting Piter is that I wanted to meet women in person, rather than a lengthy email campaign.  I figured that be focusing on Piter (a city of 4+ million) it would make things much simpler.  I could "date" in a more natural way, becoming friends first, meeting the ladies friends, and moving forward with less "let's get married" pressure.


Conclusion
I think the million dollar question on everyone's mind is whether the lack of interest was due to me (my personality/approach) or the demographic of lady I was looking to meet.

I point out the following:
1.  My first trip was with a local agency that had a hard time getting ladies willing to meet me, and indeed had their "first pick" go email silent on both me and the agency when I arrived in town.
2.  My experience as per this report.
3.  The recent posts from the local Piter girl (I forget her handle) who suggested it was absurd that we would think a girl like her would be interested in a foreign man
4.  The quote via Ambach123 from an agency owner who said that Piter girls were no longer interested in leaving.

I also point out all of the advice that I have followed from the board:
1.  Learned the language (at least a little)
2.  Used multiple reputable agencies, and also a local agency, and also tried the Mamba approach
3.  Had a back up plan
4.  Got my feet on the ground in Russia (twice).

None of this means that there is not something wrong with my approach or personality.  Eventually time will tell.  Either there will be other posts from people who can provide reports from recent trips which contradict my experience, or which match it.

Finally, someone asked what do I think I did wrong, or would do differently?

I think I presumed that all of the active profiles on a marriage site were either genuine or a scammer.  I thought that once it was clear the lady wasn't a scammer, then she was serious.  I know think that there are many profiles from women who like the idea, but really aren't prepared for the reality.  In my emails with the various women I didn't really probe their intentions sufficiently.  Based upon the conversations we had had, I think I should have visited only for a weekend.  And should have been clearer what I was expecting (and figured out what they were expecting).

One final thing...

I appreciate the advice offered and the differing perspectives presented, but I'm not really interested in spending the rest of my life debating this TR or justifying myself.  I'm happy for the board members to continue to discuss the topics contained within, but perhaps as a small thanks to me for providing the TR for the benefit of the board you can cut me some slack and ease off on some of the personal comments about me?  thx in advance

[mendeleyev]

In my final conversation with "T" she expressed genuine surprise that I would read meaning into her continued cancellations, and encouraged me to message her and hoped we could spend more quality time together in a future trip.  I dutifully emailed her after I got back home.  However in the month since my trip she has only logged on to Elena's once (as compared to 2-3 times a week prior to my trip), and my message to her remains unread. 

I was the first man to visit her, and I think she realised she was confused about whether she wanted a foreign man and perhaps has no chosen to pass on that option.

I hope you'll allow me to respectfully reflect over your clarification.

She wasn't confused. She is done. When a man visits the woman is looking first for two things:
1) Is he real?  Not a keyboard player.
2) Is he really serious about me?  She doesn't want to know or think about your list of candidates.  You either came to see her, or you're a non serious player in her eyes.
You failed this test from her perspective--and her's is the perspective which matters.

The foreign man/local man issue: There really is no such lady who has decided that she would prefer a foreign man versus a local man.

No matter who she is or where she's from, she has always wanted a local man but for some reason that hasn't worked out and she not willing to sit around and wait to get a turn as life is short. Leaving country, leaving family, leaving culture, leaving friends, leaving her whole world is something she doesn't want to to--unless she believes its her only choice, and she has genuinely fallen in love with you and decided the great risks are worth it. 

She showed genuine surprise? She's a good actress. If you knew that a influential gallery owner had visited an exhibition and seen your work, but kept putting off a meeting for the most flimsy of reasons, what would you think if they expressed surprise that you'd read something into their cancellations? 



Re: age. Her age is not the issue. Your age will define the relationship when you are 60+. If she is in her sexual prime when your hair, eyesight, and ability to sustain certain functions are gone, then you need to get used to looking the other way and pretending not to notice the obvious.  Men who seek large age differences should pray to become wealthy and hope the pool guy doesn't talk to his friends.



Gay bar: What you do in the USA stays in the USA. But this was pretty dang risky when in a different country looking for a girl. Even in Leningrad things get around especially since you stand out as a tourist, an self described artisy tourist at that. A gay bar might feel safe and allow a guy to be the one doing some rejecting after taking so much of it all week, but you didn't fly to Leningrad in order to show Russians citizens that you aren't homophobic. In addition, from a safety perspective you opened yourself to a chance encounter with Nashi types who already don't like you as a foreign tourist, but would really dislike the idea of a foreign gay tourist. In such a case you'd have flown home on an Medi Air Vac instead of coach class.

I hope this didn't come across harsh as that's not the intent. You're getting some good advice from experienced veterans here if you're coachable and willing to learn.