Another statistic

[ScottinCrimea]

This is rather tough for me to admit to here on this forum, but I would appreciate a little information and advice from those who have (unfortunately) gone through the same thing that I am going through.  I'll also welcome opinions, but please be gentle with me.

It seems that, after a period of escalating disagreements and tensions, my wife has decided to leave.  She and her daughter moved their things out today.  It was a bit funny that she brought the police with her to ensure there wouldn't be any "incidents", because I was more than fine with them leaving.  Actually it was a good thing for me because they explained to her that she could not take anything that could be considered community property without my permission and they were there to verify that I was completely cooperative and not abusive in any way (as if I would be!)  If anyone wants to know more about some of the details of the disagreements, I could do that in a later post as it may provide some insight to others of what to avoid and things to watch out for.

I have a couple of problems that I could use information on.  The first thing is that she refuses to provide me with her new address.  It's not like I would be doing anything stupid like going over there or stalking her, but because I am the sponsor for both her and her daughter, I have certain legal obligations.  My guess is that she moved in with a RW friend of hers.  One is a single mother of two with a two bedroom subsidized apartment, so it's unlikely she's there, but the other is married to a much older AM and they have a house so I suspect that's where she is.  This RW is part of all of the problems.  She's in her late 20's and her husband in his late 50's.  When she came, he immediately bout her a boob job and a sports car.  She doesn't work or go to school and the only thing she does outside of the house is to shop.  My wife began having expectations that this is what she should be entitled to and since I wasn't providing her with all of the luxuries I am a bad husband.

The other issue is that my wife is here on a conditional visa that expires in September.  Apparently she has no intentions of returning to Ukraine.  I've tried to explain to her the consequences of overstaying her visa and that she won't be able to work here on an expired visa, but she says it's not my problem.  Actually, as her sponsor, I think it is. She tends to be one who doesn't think long term and just deals with issues when finally confronted with them.  Actually I think I would prefer that she stay here as my intent is to return to Ukraine.  If I do a legal separation before this, that would basically wipe out her chances of having the conditions removed.

We were married in Ukraine, so I'm not sure how a divorce in the US would work over there.  I'm assuming there isn't a problem with getting a divorce in the US.  I'm guessing that even if we are legally divorced here we would still be married there until the appropriate papers are filed over there.

I know she can renew her visa based on DV issues, but she has nothing to base it on to this point and I'm certainly not going to do anything stupid.  I don't have any plans to make any contact with her other than providing any legal documents.

There are a lot more issues than this, but this is a good start in providing things for people to comment on and offer advice.  If someone wants to bash me while I'm down, feel free.  At this point I'm quite used to it and my skin is as thick as they conme.

[LEGAL]

ScottinCrimea Olga and I are truly sorry for what you are going through. I will PM you.

[Daveman]

Good lord... I'm very sorry to hear this, Scott... truly.  I certainly can't give advice or even opinion.  You've left me speechless (which is not an easy accomplishment).  Man, I hate this.

If you need anything, you know where to find me.  damn.

[ECOCKS]

First, of all, my sympathy.  Points up the fact that, like all marriages, there are still  challenges with cross-cultural marriages in general and perhaps FSUW in particular.

IANAL.

It is my understanding that you are going to need to get a divorce in Ukraine since you were only married over there. We got married in both places. That is pretty important if you are returning to Ukraine and don't want to step off a plane into the waiting arms of the militsia with them claiming abandonment or trying to seize assets/property.  Speaking of which, do you own anything (or part of anything) in Ukraine?  When she gets back, she will probably be advised to grab what she can if you have anything there.  Of course if you have have a wife in Ukraine that will make future trips involving dating or social activities a real problem as well.

As for the visa issues, if it is conditional and you are part of the condition, you probably are going to get involved with Immigration if she doesn't go back on time. I also suspect that around her home area you will be blamed for any problems she has with the American legal system and any subsequent requests for visas to the US.

Hope your thick-skin holds up.

[GoodOlBoy]

This is rather tough for me to admit to here on this forum, but I would appreciate a little information and advice from those who have (unfortunately) gone through the same thing that I am going through.  I'll also welcome opinions, but please be gentle with me.

Scott, I am shocked and I am deeply sorry to hear about you troubles.

Can you please tell the forum what happened.

We are here for you and are concerned about you.

Really, we are here to listen and help, not condemn.


GOB

[pitbull]

Scott,

Of all the people on RWD, you would be the last one I would expect this to happen to. I am really sorry to hear about this situation. Hopefully it gets resolved quickly.

[ScottinCrimea]

Well I thought this would be easy to resolve with a simple uncontested divorce, but she has just made it ugly.  When she was moving her things I graciously allowed her to use our van and she promised to return it.  Now she is saying that she will keep it in addition to our other car because it is "hers".  When she arrived I put title to both the car and the van in her name as a goodwill gesture and to keep a prior promise to buy her a car.  In hindsight some stupid moves on my part. So I'm here left with no transportation until I can see an attorney Monday and have the courts compel her to return the van for my use and I have no idea how long that will take.  I tried to reason with her, explaining that ultimately the court will hold her financially responsible for my costs while she keeps the van from me, but anyone who has tried to reason with a RW knows how that went.  She also took the rent money and didn't pay the rent, so unless I repay it, I'm facing eviction. It's even worse because I just spent a ton of money on the costs of getting her daughter over here and getting her enrolled in college, and prior to that every spare cent was sent to Ukraine for work on our building there so I'm pretty strapped for cash.

[Daveman]

Scott, did you see this coming? or were you completely blindsided?

Hindsight is always 20/20. Don't feel stupid. You were in for a penny in for a pound like a partner should be. You're in a tough situation but it *will* get better.  It's hard to believe that after all the two of you have been through together that she'd just completely turn on you like that. I'm still just shocked by this development.  I know the mentality and thought processes can be off the charts warped beyond comprehension, but sheesh.

[TwoBitBandit]

Ouch.

Scott, by the way you write you've always stuck me as one of the brighter guys on this forum... which makes it sad to see what has happened.

Hang in there, man.

[ScottinCrimea]

Let me see if I can break down what happened a little and add more details as the questions come.  I think she has always had too much of a sense of entitlement.  After her first divorce her mother paid for her living expenses and college fees.  About the time she graduated, I came along and began providing for her, so she has never really had to depend on herself except for three years in St Petersburg that were miserable for her and ended up with her mother bringing her home.  While I lived there we did fine but had fairly frequent arguments over a variety of topics.  I think now these were primarily to test whether I would stay with her no matter what.  Still, the good times were enough that we did get married.  I purchased and we remodeled a very nice apartment and she was living much better than her old place, which had electricity strung from her parents place and a coal furnace that I had paid to have installed before I moved there. The plan was to live in the US for awhile to give her some experience and make money to fix up her old place into an office building.  Thousands were spent getting her over here and getting settled in with a new wardrobe, buying cars, etc. and all but a minimum for living expenses as we sent the rest to Ukraine for work on the office building.  I made enough to support us, but she insisted on working one and then two jobs to speed up the process.  Rather than realizing how good she really had it, she began to look around at everything we did not have.  She started demanding that we buy a house and a new car for her, neither of which made sense as we were only going to stay here a couple of years.  She also started demanding cosmetic surgery such as liposuction because her RW friend got a boob job on arrival here.  When I wouldn't agree to these, she started accusing me of being selfish and just wasting money.  Any explanation of how I was building a longterm future for us fell on deaf ears.  I could show her with bank statements exactly where every penny was going but she accused me of doctoring them somehow.  She felt that because she worked she was not required to do any duties as a wife since she was doing "my job" by working.  I did all the cooking, I did all the shopping, I did the laundry and all the cleaning

She quite her second job several months ago, which was fine with me, but now she had less disposable income of her own and blamed me that she couldn't go shopping as often.  The expenses in bringing her daughter here were a lot higher than planned because of a couple of trips to the consul in San Francisco and then a three week trip by her back to Ukraine to get her daughter's passport followed by another three week trip there to bring her daughter back.  I was only too happy to pay for this in addition to the costs of getting our apartment ready to rent.

Things really went bad after her daughter arrived.  Suddenly I was the odd man out.  She had a Russian speaking shopping buddy at hand and I basically became nothing more than the money tree. Despite years of English in school and a intensive course in English before she came, her daughter spoke no English and didn't understand even the most basic words.  The whole point in bringing her here was to learn English, so it was frustrating to me to see her not even try and to see her mother be just fine with this.  Any attempts on my part to encourage her resulted in a FU response. The final straw that sent everything rolling downhill was the day we enrolled her in college for her ESL classes.  I had just paid for her tuition and bought a bunch of stuff for some fruit diet they wanted to be on and on the way home thought I would take advantage of a 5 for $5 Arby's special.  Her daughter spoke up and said I couldn't spend this because it was a waste of money as we had food at home and her mother jumped in also to claim it was another example of how I just wasted money.  They basically said I had no right to spend money on myself because it was my job to give them everything they wanted.  At that point I think I finally realized that no matter how much money I spent on them it would never be enough and they would never be happy.  They basically just started ignoring me, which was actually a good thing because before they had nothing but abusive words for me.

I think I realize now that all of this had been in the plans for quite awhile.  My wife was just waiting until I sponsored her daughter and paid for her to come to the US and then would leave at the earliest opportunity.  I think she was just doing the minimum possible to keep me with her until she could do this. I had really thought that she understood that she and her daughter would have a much better future if we stayed together and would make some attempt to keep things together, but with her typical RW pride she would rather live on her own and struggle than admit she has done anything wrong.  That was a lot of what worsened the disagreements, because anything short of a complete apology on my part and a promise to do everything her way was not enough.

If she goes back to working both jobs she will probably make about $2500 a month, which will probably be enough to live on but not to put anything away for the future so she will have to continue with both jobs indefinitely and she has about $3500 in debt that she racked up on her own credit cards plus $2800 she owes in taxes this year so it will be tight for her, especially with a daughter to support, but I don't think she really understands this.  Also, because of her resistance to an agreeable divorce, she will now have to fork out money for a divorce attorney.  I think she will be very shocked to learn that the cost of an attorney here is just a bit higher than in Ukraine.

So that's the story in a nutshell.  I'm not sure how things will go from here but for me there is almost a sense of relief.  I really don't see any reconciliation unless she humbles herself and changes her ways, and I don't see that happening in my lifetime.

[ECOCKS]

After reading that I was, as another poster indicated earlier, speechless. Thank you for sharing Scott, I am stunned at such a close and detailed accounting of a story like this. The other times have always been "a friend of mine..." or "I heard about a girl that...".

The odd part is that none of this seems "odd" or difficult to understand.  This is the FSUW urban legend (now factually related).

While we shouldn't embark on this venture without optimism and a positive outlook, each of us should have a solid grasp on reality before letting go of the handrails.

That said, you seem to indicate that you were deliberately doing many of these things so some of it is not very surprising with regard to her reaction.  If both cars are in her name I fully believe she sees no problem taking both cars. She's probably figuring up which pieces of furniture she wants for her new apartment that she is expecting you to buy her. By the way, have you changed the locks on the place you have now?  Hopefully her name is not on the lease.  If so, I'd bail out on Saturday with a moving guy or two and at least get to a storage facility to secure everything else.  Otherwise the proverbial plague of locusts may descend on your apartment.  If that is impossible, then get some partners and camp out in your apartment until you can change locks or secure the other stuff she wanted when the police stopped her.

Also, I would think the other gal's AM husband would be getting pretty nervous from his spectator position on this event.

[ScottinCrimea]

After reading that I was, as another poster indicated earlier, speechless. Thank you for sharing Scott, I am stunned at such a close and detailed accounting of a story like this. The other times have always been "a friend of mine..." or "I heard about a girl that...".

The odd part is that none of this seems "odd" or difficult to understand.  This is the FSUW urban legend (now factually related).

I've always admired those here who were willing to air their "dirty laundry" in an effort to educate others.  I know from being on this board long enough that there are issues I am addressing that many others have experience with or questions about.  I could easily just run and hide and stop posting as some have done, but then I would lose the opportunity to help others avoid some of the mistakes and the chance I have to get the help and support I will need. As I'm sure someone will point out eventually that right now you're just hearing my side and I'm sure there are many valid points to her side.  I understand that there are always two people at fault in a divorce and I now have to sit back and reflect on the mistakes that I made and how I can avoid them in the future.

[ECOCKS]

My wife and I just bought a large home in a community property state with the intention of bringing as many of her family over as possible over the next decade or so. Younger sisters, brothers, nieces, nephews, babushkas and then we will start on the friends.  All of our planning has been a struggle but she does now talk about things 5-8 years out and try to determine the stepping stones we need to laydown on the path. 

A sound piece of advice, exemplified in many ways by your story, is that many FSUW live in the moment with little thought for the future.  Bank failures, crop disasters, outside agitators, scrapped 5 year plans, all of these things have led their society to believe there is little point in planning more than a day or two ahead.  Most of us saw this when we began dating and have worked to build an understanding of why planning is a critical step to achieve a goal.  Goals they understand well since they have always had them.  It is just that the process between selecting the goal and actually achieving it has always been a leetle bit murky.....

[ScottinCrimea]

ECOCKS, you touch on an important issue that one should consider when dating a RW.  There is indeed a tendency to have a short term mentality, which explains why many here have expressed frustration with trying to discuss a budget with their wives.  I saw this with my wife but thought that we had made progress on this area.  perhaps I was just fooling myself and instead of really resolving it in her mind it just led to a build up of frustration and anger on her part as she saw my holding onto money for future bills, etc. to just be greed on my part.  Even though she could see that I was really spending nothing on myself, she apparently thought that there was some underlying selfish reason I wasn't allowing her to spend the money.  I mistakenly took her eventual silence as an understanding of the concept.

I know in her past any time she had any extra money she would buy something with it and not measure it out to cover her until the next time she would get money.  She would literally have no food in the house for days at a time because of this.  Sometimes she would resort to asking her mother for money for food but more often she had too much pride and instead would send her daughter because she knew that she couldn't say no to her granddaughter.  The really sad part is that neither of them ever showed any gratitutude toward Ella's parents.  I never heard a single thank you but rather disrespect and criticism from both Ella and her daughter.  Their lack of courtesy and respect toward Ella's parents really appalled me.  I see now in hindsight that this should have been a real clue to me because they both treat me the exact same way.

It's strange because Ella's mother went through some pretty difficult times but she isn't so short term in her thinking.  She has a good grasp on the idea of saving for and planning for the future.  She was apparently unable to pass that on to her daughter.

[ECOCKS]

With regard to the lack of respect, consider the effect of 70+ years of being told that the family would not take care of you but the state would.  This entitlement mentality already has a percentage of our own population in 3rd generation cycles of dependency on the dole. "It's okay that I don't work, the government will take care me" is only an institutionalized framework.  The legendary devs who believe there is always a guy somewhere; their boss, a friend's husband, the man down the street, whoever, that will take care of them. Over here we joke about sugar daddies, over there it's a bit more seriously regarded as something smart women keep an eye open for.

This next remark is not directed at Scott, but has become a common expression of mine over the last three years when I am asked about the incredibly beautiful women of the FSU. (Note: Guys please try to explain to your wives that I am not literally saying that women are to be treated exactly like horses.)

My response: "Yeah they are beautful no doubt about it, but back in Tennessee we have some beautiful show ponies that are really fun to saddle up and ride around the arena for an hour or two.  You get lots of cheers and whistles from the audience, the judges award you points and may give you a pretty ribbon or even a beautiful trophy, but for the long haul I want a stayer. I want one that can get up in the morning and work out the kinks pretty quickly then get to work or start putting some miles down on the road.  One that can stay with me all day, through unexpected challenges, simple meal breaks and such yet at the end of the day knows we're going back to a good wiping down, some dinner and the warmth of our home. THAT takes a true thoroughbread, not a high-strung showhorse."

[Brianinaz]

Wow Scott, boy that really makes one sit up and take notice. My heart goes out to you.

First thing Monday I would be talking with a good family law attorney. If Utah is a community property state then all assets acquired during the marriage are community property and generally speaking divided equally. I wouldn't count on a judge jumping in early and giving you a vehicle though, especially if the title is in her name.

If Utah is like Arizona then spousal support is based in large part on the length of the marriage. For a marriage that lasted only a couple of years you shouldn't be on the hook for much if any at all (from a traditional standpoint, the affidavit of support is a wild card here).

I would have absolutely no contact at all Scott. That's the best protection you can have. All communication with her should be through your lawyer. As much as you may want to be the reasonable, understanding and nice guy, she has shown you that is not how the game is going to be played out.

This just goes to show in spite of a lot of face time and doing all the "right things" that an awful lot of success here is just luck. You're lucky enough for the person to turn out to be who you thought she was or you were unlucky and bought into a lie.

I'm not sure what the deal is with a conditional visa. If you have not filed for an adjustment of status then my understanding is you would be in the driver's seat. I am under the impression that you have to participate in that in an affirmative fashion for it to happen.

I don't think it matters where you get a divorce. It's just like getting married; it's internationally recognized. I don't know about Ukrainian law but in the States there is a residency requirement ie you have to be residing in the state for a certain time before you can file for divorce in that state. For Arizona I believe it was 120 days prior to filing. I would think filing here would be in your best interest. If you have joint property there that will complicate things and I would bring a Ukrainian lawyer into the loop. My wife is a lawyer (corporate so she can't help directly) and if you wish I will ask for a reference. PM me if I can help in any way

[Vinnvinny]

Sorry to hear your story Scott. You’re a brave man to be so candid here. Whilst each situation is unique please take some comfort that many have been through what you are experiencing and some of us could turn it into an Olympic event (I know I could).

If I could be so bold as to offer some advice that have cost me $100k’s in learning (literally):

Try to never get angry – it achieves nothing except more anger and it will often cost you money.

Don’t portion blame on anyone. Nobody is perfect.

If you decide you would like to ‘win’ your lady back then read up on the proven ‘science’ relating to this. Basically you walk away and get on with your life which is never a bad thing anyway.

You never know what is around the corner so always keep all your options open.

When you’re in a tunnel then the darkest point is just before it starts to get light.

Good luck!

[ScottinCrimea]

Hi Brian,

Yeah, it's a crazy thing.  Hope I'm not putting too much of the fear of God in everyone here.

Utah is a community property state so things will be divided equally, such as they are.  I have no problem with that.  The immediate issue is, because of her vindictiveness, I have to go out tomorrow and rent a car so I can get around.  I will be contacting an attorney on Monday and arranging for a consultation as soon as possible.  He may be able to speak with Ella on the phone and just convince her that it would be in everyone's best interest if she just returned my car.  Since the cars are community property, technically they are half mine.  They are both paid for so that's not an issue.

I shouldn't be on the hook at all for spousal support because she has worked and shown she can support herself.

As far as any contact with her, I certainly know better than that. She refused to give up her key to the apartment, though, so it's possible she may appear and try to initiate a confrontation.  I can't legally change the locks because her name is on the lease.  You are right that she has set the terms for how this will be played out.  My plan is to continue to do the right and reasonable thing, but take extra precautions to protect myself.  I don't think any judge will look at her behavior approvingly, and that will go against her.  Her immediate problem is going to be that she doesn't have the money for an attorney and makes too much to qualify for free legal aid.  She talks about getting an attorney but unless she can find someone who will do it for free or a friend to loan her some money, she's in trouble.  She has no clue about divorce proceedings here or what she has to do to respond to a petition, but she'll have 20 days after being served with the papers to get an education.

I checked a bit more on the removal of conditions on her visa and found out something interesting.  If we are divorced, she can petition on her own.  She just needs to show proof that the marriage was entered into in good faith and then just went bad.  She needs to provide a copy of the divorce decree.  If we are still married, I must be involved in the proceedings.  I'm not quite sure what to do with that.  I suppose I could delay the divorce proceedings and force her to return home, but that would drag things out another six months.  It may take that long anyway, especially since there is a 90 day waiting period after a divorce is granted before it is final.  Actually I think I would rather that she stayed, so she can't be causing me any problems back in Ukraine.

The residency law here is that one party resides in the state for the prior three months, so that's not a a problem.  Even if we do get divorced here, we would need to file some sort of papers there to have the divorce recognized, since we both have stamps in our passports recording the marriage.  I don't see any need to worry about that until such time as I move back there.  In the meantime it might come in handy to appear to be married to a Ukrainian national when I visit there. As far as our property there, she has some in her name and mine is in her parents' name.  This was done for a variety of reasons. and her parents have always acknowledged that it is mine.  Nothing the courts would have to worry about dividing.  I have spent a ton of money fixing up her property but I'm fine with just letting that go and not making a claim on the increase in value since the marriage.

I'm starting to suspect that she is looking at some sort of reconciliation on her terms by making things so difficult that I would give in to whatever she wanted.  That just ain't going to happen, and her pride would never allow her to come begging for me to take her back.

[Mir]

Scott

I am sorry to hear about this.

[ConnerVT]

As far as any contact with her, I certainly know better than that. She refused to give up her key to the apartment, though, so it's possible she may appear and try to initiate a confrontation.  I can't legally change the locks because her name is on the lease.  

And the penalty to you for changing the locks is?

Compared to the cost of all of your possessions being taken, or worse, her planting herself in the middle of the living room, creating a scene, and filing a DV charge?

Change the locks.  It is time to protect yourself.

[BC]

Scott,

What a shock to wake up this a.m. and see this thread.

You seem to be handling this quite level headed so that's a big plus.

Any reaction from her parents about the situation?

Kopf hoch.

[ScottinCrimea]

Conner, you do have a point, though I don't think the apartment managers would be pleased, and couldn't this be claimed as one form of abuse if I lock her out of "her" home?

BC, I did make a brief call to her mother, who was totally unaware that there was a problem.  She was going to try to call her daughter, but there was no answer, I suspect because she is sleeping.  Right now I'm looking for someone who can provide three way conference calling and Russian translation so I can explain the situation better but I can't seem to find anyone who doesn't require me to set up a time sometime a few days down the road for the call.  One dating agency will do this if I join their site and buy about $50 worth of credits and I'm started to be tempted to do that.  I think it's iimportant that her mother and i have a good conversation.

[SMS60]

Scott, sorry to hear about you situation.

Reading what you wrote is eye opening. She had this planned for sometime which you also acknowlege. You also know the relationship is beyond repair. The most important item is you and getting all this out of your life as quickly as possible.

Some of the things I read would make me worry. I would like to offer a suggestion for you to think about. I think if anyway there should not be anymore contact or conversations with you. Your lawyer can be the contact

My suggestion would be to apply for a " no contact or protective order" first thing Monday morning. You have to explain why you want one for the judge to read before they issue it. You can be truthful about the reason which is DV coming into play because of the GC.

You will be on "record" regarding this issue.

This order actually protects both parties from potential problems and accusations.

The key is to have this put into place before she tries to initiate one on you. You are one step ahead of her.

This may seem far fetched at the moment but think of what she planned in the past.

Protect yourself

[Chicagoguy]

Sorry to hear about your marriage. I think "Crash" is almost the best word.

One sad thing to consider is how the worms come out of the woodwork now and she will be getting all sorts of free advice from friends and others. Maybe even the American husband of her girlfriend.

I hope you can try to put yourself first because you can be sure your wife will do this for herself.

[ScottinCrimea]

I would think that if she was going to go for a DV charge she would have arranged for something to "happen" before she moved out, but I'm sure as she's out there talking to others about the situation and it gets closer to crunch time on her visa she might try to pull something.  She may even try to return and steal some of my things as others have suggested to try to get me angry enough to do something but the only thing here that's worth the hassle of not letting her take it is my computer because of all of the documents, etc. I have on it.  I've already canceled her user account so she can't get into it, and I plan to just keep it with me. If I change the locks she can just go to the apartment managers and cause problems.  I agree that the best thing is to get some kind of order in place as soon as possible.