Another statistic

[Maxx2]

My only concern is what collateral damage she can cause me by claiming abuse.  There won't be criminal charges or any civil action, but it sounds like it will put me on a few lists that could cause problems for me later on.  Still, given the way the system works, there's not a darned thing I can do about it, so no need to thrash about trying to fight it.  It is what it is.

This is what you should investigate before you attempt another K Visa. Getting off the list may not be possible. However there may be ways to circumvent the system as far as getting another Russian bride. This should be investigated in the event you decide to do it again. If you go ahead without a plan it will probably cost you several wasted years of your life. Since 2006 with the reenactment of VAWA men who have had previous K Visa granted for their spouses but their marriages ended in a VAWA charge have had difficulties getting their NOA 2 notices. A K-3 visa, that is marrying over there, has better odds. What happens is the NOA 2 is disapproved. Then the husband hires a immigration attorney that pesters the USCIS for documentation and explanations why the petition was denied. If this gets into the VAWA charge the further explanation can be asked for on details on that. Bottom line is the USCIS would rather grant the K-3 visa than go through all the work the attorney is asking for. Exceptions of course are if the marriage ended in an aggravated felony but we know in your case it hadn't. Also some men marry Russian women that come here on other visas. That is not always so easy to accomplish.

Maxx   

[Maxx2]

Dave,

As you know, John has his own account here (JNSampson). Why are you acting as a proxy for John and re-posting his material?

- Dan

I just now sent John an e-mail and link asking him to give his thoughts on this subject. It was late last night and I wanted to post a backup to what I said to Scott before I went to bed.

Maxx

[Ronnie]

Scott,
I just today learned about your and KenC's situations and it makes me very sorry for the both of you.  I'm especially concerned about you because yours seems the worse circumstance.  When, you wrote,

I am somewhat disappointed, though, in her willingness to compromise me to achieve her own goals when it really wasn't necessary.

This willingness did not spring up from nowhere.  I suspect when you said that the earlier problems were "situational" you were making excuses for her bad behavior.

During my seeking/selection period, I took a lot of criticism from members of the RWG for "seeing red flags behind every tree".  And it's true, I saw a lot them. But I don't regret my cautious attitude as it allowed me two pull the plug on many women who would only have led me to where you are now.  It doesn't take a long period of getting to know someone.  If we are prone to making excuses for her behavior, all the time is the world won't affect our ultimate decision to marry.

Better to have zero tolerance in all troublesome things .  I walked away because of ill-mannered children.  I walked away because I didn't like the friends around her.  I walked because of deception..it didn't matter how small, ie lying about smoking.  But most often I walked because of avarice and mistrust (I believe those who mistrust without cause presume all are as untrustworthy as themselves).

So Scott, your disappointment at her willingness to throw you under the bus in order to achieve her personal goals is a familiar tune and one you could have seen coming as people do not really change with their surroundings.  I don't offer this to be critical but to help those still seeking/selecting.

Advice?  Speed the divorce along.  Bring the issue to a head ASAP.  Don't fred over her A number, change of address or GC.  Those are her problems.  Distance yourself in every way possible but don't move out of state and then try to handle the Utah divorce.  You'll be at a great disadvantage.  (Been there, done that).

[WmGO]

Scott,
I just today learned about your and KenC's situations and it makes me very sorry for the both of you.  I'm especially concerned about you because yours seems the worse circumstance.  When, you wrote,

I am somewhat disappointed, though, in her willingness to compromise me to achieve her own goals when it really wasn't necessary.

This willingness did not spring up from nowhere.  I suspect when you said that the earlier problems were "situational" you were making excuses for her bad behavior.

During my seeking/selection period, I took a lot of criticism from members of the RWG for "seeing red flags behind every tree".  And it's true, I saw a lot them. But I don't regret my cautious attitude as it allowed me two pull the plug on many women who would only have led me to where you are now.  It doesn't take a long period of getting to know someone.  If we are prone to making excuses for her behavior, all the time is the world won't affect our ultimate decision to marry.

Better to have zero tolerance in all troublesome things .  I walked away because of ill-mannered children.  I walked away because I didn't like the friends around her.  I walked because of deception..it didn't matter how small, ie lying about smoking.  But most often I walked because of avarice and mistrust (I believe those who mistrust without cause presume all are as untrustworthy as themselves).

So Scott, your disappointment at her willingness to throw you under the bus in order to achieve her personal goals is a familiar tune and one you could have seen coming as people do not really change with their surroundings.  I don't offer this to be critical but to help those still seeking/selecting.

I wasn't going to say it given Scott's situation but since Ronnie did let me just say I agree completely with  Ronnie's post.

Seekers should pay close attention and take heed. 

[groovlstk]

Very early on, some of the details of this relationship bothered me.

I know many here have gone back and forth on the moral ambiguities of Ukrainian/Russian life vs. the West, but I could never come to grips with this part of the story of how Scott and his wife met:

The woman who was scamming me claimed that she had lost her passport and asked me to send it to another name but I refused. At this point the woman had to bring my wife into the picture.  She offered her a percentage of the money if she would go along.  My wife had no interest in internet dating but agreed to go along.

This one really troubled me because I experienced a similar situation w/a Ukrainian woman who had no feelings for me yet saw me as a lifeline:

About two months after my move, she went into a deep depression where she hated just about everyone, most of all me and we didn't so much as touch each other for two months.  During this time I took care of everything, did the shopping, cooking, housecleaning, etc. because she wasn't capable of doing them.  Luckily she broke through the depression ( Sometime I need to post about shamans here) and things settled down a bit.

Scott, do you see these now as red flags that maybe you should have taken more seriously?

Regardless, this woman and her daughter don't deserve a man like you.

[diverboy70]

Hi Scott

I just want to show my symphaty, I know we have not allways had the same wievs about everything.

I followeded the firsts posts in your thread, but have been to busy to follow the whole thread. I know how hard this is, not as good as you do, but I have learned a whole lot since beeing a total rookie.

I would suggest to you to listen to the other guys who has been around a while, and do not listen to the bullshit. Maybe you made a few misjudgments. But honestly who can be totally objective when we are in love?

You thougt she was the one, things went wrong. Take you time to analyze it and then go on!

I wish you the best of luck in the future!

/Anders

[tim 360]

Yeah, the shelter thing is a concern.  I don't know exactly what story she told them, but I'm sure it was their idea to have the police come with her when she took her stuff.  It's associated with the YWCA and specifically states that it is for women with a history of domestic violence.  I'm sure the picture of a "poor" Russian immigrant and her 17 year old daughter helped get her in the door.

They offer transitional housing for up to two years while they help the woman find affordable housing and get back on their feet.  They are required to have a job for this program as opposed to the emergency shelter part.

Is there a domestic violence claim looming?  Quite possibly, but she has absolutely nothing to support such a claim.  No police reports, no medical records, no bruises or other marks, etc.  The best she could claim would be verbal abuse.  From my interactions with her so far, I get no sense that she is planning to go this route, but I suspect that she will eventually try to go that route for her green card.  Her problem is that, in addition to no proof of anything, it has been over three weeks now since she left and she has not sought a restraining order.  It would be very difficult for her to do so at this point. She has met with me on two occasions since then, once at my apartment and then yesterday at a 7-11, so she can't really claim she is afraid of me.  I  have the name of one of the officers that came with her when she moved out, and he would testify that my behavior was completely appropriate.  She has no grounds to file criminal charges so I think the issue will be limited to the divorce and the visa.

We met yesterday so she could sign the title of the car over to me, which is really the last thing I needed from her.  I see no reason for any further contact and I won't initiate any.  Her attitude had gone progressively colder and yesterday when I saw her I wondered what I ever saw in her.  She still refuses to give me her alien registration number for my change of address forms, even though I showed her yesterday the form and where it required the number and also the paper with my infopass appointment to visit the immigration field office to get it.  I even mentioned that this will be the same group that would interview her for the removal of conditions, but to no avail.  So I won't worry about it, I'll just get what I need and if it becomes a problem for her there's nothing I can do about it.

I've pretty much gotten to that point where I no longer worry about the negative consequences to her of her poor decisions.  She has clearly been brainwashed by those at the shelter into believing that this has to be an adversarial thing and that she can't trust anything I say or do as it is surely a way to get back at her or cause her problems.  I think it will be a long time before she sees any of her problems as the result of her decisions rather than something I may have done to her.  I've offered my help and advice in total good faith, and she wants nothing to do with it.  Probably better for me as it gets me off the hook completely.

Scott,  I have not read your thread in 5-6 days and it seems things have only become worse for you.  In my state if she was in a shelter, you would already been sent to court and wacked with a restraining order and things would have quickly become worse for you.  Stay away from her for your own good.  She definitely knows how to play the system here and you were the mule.  I hope you have begun divorce proceedings 'cuz things are not going to get better for you.  Good luck Scott you seem like a good guy who married the wrong girl. 

[ScottinCrimea]

Very early on, some of the details of this relationship bothered me.

I know many here have gone back and forth on the moral ambiguities of Ukrainian/Russian life vs. the West, but I could never come to grips with this part of the story of how Scott and his wife met:

This one really troubled me because I experienced a similar situation w/a Ukrainian woman who had no feelings for me yet saw me as a lifeline:

Scott, do you see these now as red flags that maybe you should have taken more seriously?

Regardless, this woman and her daughter don't deserve a man like you.

The whole process of how we started communicating was was one of the reasons that it took a year of correspondence with her before I went to see her.  It took her that long to get my trust back.

The deep depression she went into was really a difficult time.  She admits to a history of depression at times, where she basically puts up a wall to everyone and becomes apathetic.  I've seen minor repeats, but nothing nearly so deep or as long as that time.  The only things that kept us together were her mother and fear that her daughter wouldn't be cared for if I left.  We lived together for two years before we married and I didn't see any repeats so I felt it was just a one time incident.

Were these things red flags?  Of course they were, and easier to spot with 20/20 hindsight, but taken in the context of everything else going on it wasn't all balck and white.

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott,  I have not read your thread in 5-6 days and it seems things have only become worse for you.  In my state if she was in a shelter, you would already been sent to court and wacked with a restraining order and things would have quickly become worse for you.  Stay away from her for your own good.  She definitely knows how to play the system here and you were the mule.  I hope you have begun divorce proceedings 'cuz things are not going to get better for you.  Good luck Scott you seem like a good guy who married the wrong girl. 

Tim,  Actually, things are getting better. I've moved to a new place and my life is moving forward.  Like I said before, I have no idea what she told them at the shelter to get admitted there but it appears to not be anything that had them pushing her to file any charges or get any restraining orders, and they are aware that she has met with me a couple of times since. (I make sure it's always a public place, and only long enough to exchange personal property with minimal conversation)

As far as filing for the divorce, I know some here will strongly disagree with this, but there are very valid reasons that I won't discuss here why it is important that she is the one who files.

[JR]

I wish you the best man, it's a tough situation.

[Ronnie]

I'm not really sure what Anders meant when he wrote:

I would suggest to you to listen to the other guys who has been around a while, and do not listen to the bull*snip*. Maybe you made a few misjudgments. But honestly who can be totally objective when we are in love?

/Anders

The comments have mostly been from guys who've been around a while.  My comments were meant not so much for Scott but for the guys who are starting out or still not finalizing a relationship.  I feel the issue is so important that I will repeat what I wrote earlier but put it perhaps more succinctly:  Don't turn a blind eye to anything that could be a harbinger of future problems!

The risks are too great...far greater than a normal relationship where maybe small stuff can be managed later.  Guys must have zero tolerance.  The FSUW can and do tolerate a lot flawed WM but that's a different picture. These women are not dumb..  they have street smarts growing up in their culture.  They know that once they get a foothold in the west, they can bail out and land relatively softly in a new life - better than the one they left behind.   This is not to be taken as an indictment against the FSUW nor a criticism of any man's mistakes.  I intend this simply as an illustration of the risks the WM faces and the extreme caution with which he should proceed.  A strict policy of zero tolerance is the only insurance policy you can take out against disasterous ending.

Anders talks about being in love making hard to see.  I find it hard to believe that love happens through mere correspondence or phone calls.  I call that fascination or curiosity or maybe good old-fashion lust.  Genuine love happens only after you've been through some challenging times together and you realize you care more for the other person than you do for yourself.  This doesn't happen in a few months of writing or even a few weeks of being together.  So I can't accept that love prevents a man from adopting a zero tolerance policy from the start. 

It' s almost embarassing to talk about but this might be to good time.  When my wife was interview for her K1, with me out of earshot the nasty AW interviewer asked my wife how she felt being my third choice (two previous K-1 applications).  This upset my wife to be until I told her the AW was wrong, that she ended up being my first choice because I had rejected the other two.  And furthermore, those were just the two who fooled me longer than the other forty or so FSUW that I had walked away from (I was in-country almost 24 months).

Is my marriage perfect?  That depends on what day you ask me.  Some days .. absolutely!  Other days I wonder how I could have married this person as she at times exhibits the kind of behavior that caused me to walk away from so many others. 

But this woman I married has so many good qualities that control her conduct most days, that I've decided that any day when the misanthropic side of her surfaces, I accept that day a chance to build my own character by not letting it affect me adversely and to disarm her with an additional portion of kindness. 

This is how I had learned to not only survive my marriage but to actually cause it to improve day by day.

[Misha]

Don't turn a blind eye to anything that could be a harbinger of future problems!

I agree and would add that men should never try to rationalize bad behavior by saying that it is "cultural."

[Sculpto]

The whole process of how we started communicating was was one of the reasons that it took a year of correspondence with her before I went to see her.  It took her that long to get my trust back.

Can you elaborate on this please? 

[diverboy70]

I'm not really sure what Anders meant when he wrote:


Anders talks about being in love making hard to see.  I find it hard to believe that love happens through mere correspondence or phone calls.  I call that fascination or curiosity or maybe good old-fashion lust.  Genuine love happens only after you've been through some challenging times together and you realize you care more for the other person than you do for yourself.  This doesn't happen in a few months of writing or even a few weeks of being together.  So I can't accept that love prevents a man from adopting a zero tolerance policy from the start. 

I do not really know what you are getting at here Ronnie? I think Scott had more face time than most of the men, before marriage!

Ok, maybe not love, but "beeing in love". What I meant is you are not allways totally objective when dealing with women you are really intereted in!

If you are making a play with words, just drop it! you know English is not my first language, and you know wery well what I meant! You are a smart guy Ronnie, do not our past disagreement derail this thread!

[Ronnie]

Anders, no reason to take offense, I certainly meant none.  I only wanted to point out that being in love doesn't really apply those first few days so one should be able to walk away from it. 

As to Scott's long relationship, that goes along with the point that long exposure won't by itself produce success.  I think that's been statistically proven.  Nice guys tend to be reluctant to end a bad relationship until, as ultimately will happen, she ends it.

[Ade]

I agree with Diver, it's just not possible to be totally objective when interacting with a woman you are romantically interested in.

And even if you do manage to be truly analytical and calculating, I think that most women would be able to tell that you're not 100% invested and it would sour the relationship before it properly started even with a good woman who was entirely genuine, maybe especially a woman like this.

But sure, even for guys in the most self-deluded, infatuated state of mind there will be glaring signs to run a mile but it's the subtle ones that can be missed and it's these that can sneak up and bite you on the arse 5 years down the line.

[Ronnie]

Jaded,

You've touched on something I hadn't thought of.  The powerful effect of a pretty lady paying attention to a guy when it has been an uncommon occurence in his dating life. 

Now that I recall my early experiences I did in fact fail to acknowledge some bad traits because of the beautiful face and charm of a RW twenty years my junior.  I guess I became immunized after a while to the charms and started noticing the character more as I accumulated time in the game.

I'm not sure how one really does become innoculated from the very outset.  I was just lucky that the first lady behaved so badly in front of another couple that I snapped out of the hypnotic state I had been in for 5 weeks and realized all at once what/whom I was dealing with.

[Ade]

Jaded,

You've touched on something I hadn't thought of.  The powerful effect of a pretty lady paying attention to a guy when it has been an uncommon occurence in his dating life. 

Now that I recall my early experiences I did in fact fail to acknowledge some bad traits because of the beautiful face and charm of a RW twenty years my junior.  I guess I became immunized after a while to the charms and started noticing the character more as I accumulated time in the game.

I'm not sure how one really does become innoculated from the very outset.  I was just lucky that the first lady behaved so badly in front of another couple that I snapped out of the hypnotic state I had been in for 5 weeks and realized all at once what/whom I was dealing with.

One of the things I've learned over the years is that there's a fine line to walk in the initial stages of any relationship; being too analytic can sour a relationship before it starts but letting yourself go with the flow and being too trusting can lead you to places you just don't want to go. I've done both several times, losing good women as a result and, conversely, failing to recognize when I should be running. I guess these are life skills that are difficult to teach and have to be learned the hard way.

I'd agree that a lot of men fall foul to the flattery and ego stroking of young, attractive women.

[Gator]

The deep depression she went into was really a difficult time.  She admits to a history of depression at times, where she basically puts up a wall to everyone and becomes apathetic.  I've seen minor repeats, but nothing nearly so deep or as long as that time.

Do you think a psychiatrist would diagnose her as clinically depressed?  If yes, it explains a lot, especially if she is not receiving treatment.

Also, it is really good for you that you have separated from her.

I say the latter based on my own experience from a 25-year marriage to a clinically depressed woman.  A couple of years would be acceptable if not fine, and then she would have a year or two of irrationality.   These were the most frustrating periods of my life, and unknowingly it spilled over into the rest of my life.

In our later years my wife started taking Prozac.  Medication helped her think more clearly, yet she was not cured.  The medication was like throwing a life preserver to someone struggling in the deep end of a swimming pool.  However, it did not teach her to swim.

A few years went by and her psychiatrist convinced her to get out of the deep end of the pool (i. e., leave me and our troublesome son).  Her psychiatrist added that I also suffered from depression and needed to be on medication.  She pushed me to take meds, thinking it would help me the same as it helped her.  Meanwhile, she had found a better caregiver than me (a man 10 years older than me) and soon she filed for divorce, yet stayed at home.  Confusing time for me.

I am a true family man, and in an effort to save our family, I consulted a psychiatrist.  He diagnosed me as borderline normal but prescribed medication only after I insisted.  In summary, I became a zombie.  My psychiatrist did not like what was happening and sent me to an eminently qualified authority.  This second diagnosis was a watershed event -  I am not clinically depressed, rather I have the symptoms of someone with a depressed spouse.  He said, "Let her go!"

She moved out, leaving me and my younger son.  Years later, all my friends remark how much happier I am.  And my old friends say that I am now the same happy man that they knew 30-40 years ago.

Scott, this too could be your case.  If so, remember the advice of my eminent psychiatrist,  "Let her go!"  There is really nothing you can do to help her, and continuing to try will only drag you down.  She chose to separate so you should not feel one ounce of guilt.  Once you move on, your life and sense of happiness will improve remarkably. 

[Misha]

I think Scott had more face time than most of the men, before marriage!

Face time only helps if you are extremely critical as Ronnie has pointed out. If you willingly make excuses for less than good behavior, then it does not matter how much face time you have had, even if you spent years courting her IMHO. The challenge is to really know what  you are looking for, to know what kind of woman would suit you (and you her) and to understand when you have found that woman.

[Misha]

One of the things I've learned over the years is that there's a fine line to walk in the initial stages of any relationship; being too analytic can sour a relationship before it starts but letting yourself go with the flow and being too trusting can lead you to places you just don't want to go.

It is best to be analytical before the any relationship. Before meeting my wife, I had a very clear idea as to what kind of woman I was looking for in terms of character, personality, values, outlook on life, etc.... It was possible for me to know after a few dates that my wife fit all that I was looking for in a life partner. The next three months that I spent with her in Russia at no time did she say or do anything to make my question my evaluation of her as a person and our compatibility.

[BC]

What's that old saying.. (think I've used it before here a couple times)

Women marry men thinking they can change them..
Men marry women thinking they won't change..

People DO change over time.  Hopefully in the same directions.

Often though, the direction is not the same and it ends up being time for a new chapter in life.

Normalna.

Gator,

Your experiences are illuminating.  Thanks for sharing them.

[ScottinCrimea]

Gator,  I think it is quite possible.  I got some Zoloft for her and when she would take it she did feel better, but she only took it as a single dose when she felt down, not consistently.  She treated it more as a tranquilizer.

I can totally relate to how it affected you.  I'm looking back now and seeing the impact it has had on me, especially the negativity.  It eventually wears you down, especially when directed at you.

I'm normally a very upbeat, optimistic person, but I'm seeing that I lost a lot of that over time.  I'm sure it made me even more difficult to live with than I normally am.  

[KenC]

Gator,
I also want to thank you for sharing your story.

I was involved in a relationship with a bipolar woman for a few years between marriages.  OMG!  What a roller coaster it was.  The highs were fantastic, but the lows were miserable.  Zoloft and Prozac didn't;t help her much.  They only made her zombie like.  A shell of the person she was before.  I finally realized that I could not save her, so I saved myself from her.
KenC

[murmur]

It is best to be analytical before the any relationship. Before meeting my wife, I had a very clear idea as to what kind of woman I was looking for in terms of character, personality, values, outlook on life, etc.... It was possible for me to know after a few dates that my wife fit all that I was looking for in a life partner. The next three months that I spent with her in Russia at no time did she say or do anything to make my question my evaluation of her as a person and our compatibility.

Good point here. you know what's the problem of AM seeking RW? Not the geography. The objective.
If you are a middle aged average looking AM, looking for a 20 something Russian/Ukrainian model - you are heading in for trouble. You would be much better off if you applied the same American  dating standards to the FSU ladies. If you are 50 something average looking Joe with average income - look for a lady from the same field of life. No more than 10 years of age difference, same mentality, same look. " Po Sen'ke shapka".
If you think that a hot Russian/Ukr. chick will fall in love with you just because you are a blue passport holder, you are in for a big surprise.
It is no different there, than it is here, in America. Everything will fall into place. If she had no feelings for you to begin with, she will hit the road when she gets the GC. You will be lucky if she will leave you a couple of bucks in your bank account.
Sorry, the author of the topic - nothing personal, my post has nothing to do with your situation. I am speaking  generally here.
Of course, every coin has two sides. But that is a different story.