Another statistic

[OlgaH]

She made an impulsive decision to go to the shelter.  

I would say a hasty decision. Finally she realized that an easy way for her is your kindness. I 'm glad that things are going in smooth course for you      

[Makkin]

  Your doing a fine job with it all Scott. My best wishes for you and all the happiness in the world.

Makkin

[JR]

All you can do is to continue to do what is right. It is difficult to not get into the 'moment' of it but you are doing an upstanding job, keep it up.

There is nowhere to complain to. That system is there to protect women who have truly been abused. Unfortunately your wife chose to "go there" and now you must wear that stigma in certain circles. But certainly not among the people who know you.

Hold your head high and walk the straight line. I would also say to not let your guard down. I say this not knowing you or your wife but if she were setting you up for additional charges in order to make a better settlement...just be careful to not be alone with her.

[Ooooops]

So right now, life is good.  I’m moving on and have no expectations from her.  I will help her get her new life set up, as I think that is only fair, but beyond that, she’s welcome to live the life that she has chosen.

I might be wrong but I looks to me that you still have a very big soft spot for her.    It may not be bad, though...   People make mistakes and if they can fix them then go for it, I say. 

[I/O]

looks to me that you still have a very big soft spot for her.

That would be perfectly understandable IMO. Many people have a soft spot for the one the once loved. Nevertheless, Scott, perhaps a time to carry an iron hand in a velvet glove whilst keeping your powder dry.

I/O

[Boethius]

d

[ScottinCrimea]

Boethius,  I appreciate your comments and don't take any offense at all.  You are 100% correct.  For whatever reason, ultimately it was her choice to take and they are her consequences to deal with.  Unfortunately her daughter is also forced to deal with the consequences of her decision, but I have no control over that.  If she is content to see her daughter sleeping on the floor, that is her choice as a mother.

[SMS60]

I guess it's time for an update so everyone can chime in on how I am doing everything wrong.  I'm sure Maxx is just chomping at the bit.

Still no divorce papers yet, but I'm fine with that as things are quite comfortable at the moment and I'm in no hurry to deal with that mess.

I have new work that has an incredible insurance package so I went ahead and included my wife on the plan.  The cost is minimal and there is no deductible and no maximum.  I've told her I will keep her on this as long as I can but she must take advantage of this to take care of all of her dental and medical issues before I have to take her off.

Last week I helped her apply for financial aid and enroll in the local community college.  All of this is not about hoping for some kind of reconciliation, it's more about helping her get set up to live on her own.

We talked about her application for removal of conditions.  Basically, she has three options:  We can file a joint application, she can file alone based on divorce, or she can file alone based on abuse.  Right now it looks like filing based on divorce isn't an option as the divorce would not be final before she had to apply.  She is now open to filing jointly but will talk to her lawyer about this and decide what is best for her.  Of course I would prefer that it be a joint application, but at this point I am willing to support her either way.  I have always said I wanted that she stay in the US and I will stand by this.  Her daughter got her 10 year green card this week.

I've gained more insight as to the sequence of events.  She made an impulsive decision to go to the shelter.  Once there, she was dealing with women who had a picture in their minds of an abusive male who only wanted to control her and wanted her as a slave for sex and everything else.  In “counseling” they presented her with loaded questions that over time imbedded in her mind that I was just such a person.  Any suggestion on her part that this didn’t apply to me was not acceptable.  She was told to never have any contact with me again, that I was not to be trusted, and that only they could be trusted to do the right thing for her.  She has had some confusion because my actions since the separation, as well as how I behaved before, run contrary to what they insisted would be.  Only now that she is on her own and away from that influence is she open to working together.  I see this as a real cancer in the system that focuses on a private agenda rather than looking at what is best for the individual woman.  I wish I had somewhere I could complain, but I know that this would be seen as another example of a “controlling” male. I don't think it is possible to reverse this brainwashing at this point.
 
So right now, life is good.  I’m moving on and have no expectations from her.  I will help her get her new life set up, as I think that is only fair, but beyond that, she’s welcome to live the life that she has chosen.

Scott I have not commented much in this thread. I dont agree with the way you are conducting yourself but thats my opinion. You know what makes you sleep better at night and its your decision. I wish you the best.

I would like to use your last post to convey my opinion on the way the American society is going especially in relationships.

American males have been complaining about the attitudes of American women for many years. They say they are demanding,materialistic, with a big sense of entitlement. Whos at fault?? I think a lot of the blame should be place at the feet of the AM.

I think some AM enable women and justify their actions. After a period of time we have conditioned a lot women here in the US to be the way they are. Now we dont like our women and are looking in different countries for women who used to be like AW from years ago. We find them but put them in a culture that changes them to the type of women we were trying to get away from. Especially the young ones.

I will use Scotts wife in his post as an example. She has learned she can make decisions and not be responsible for them. There will be someone to bail her out. This creates bad behaviour an a attitude towards life which is not healthy. She can do whatever and knows there will be no consequences for her. She is taken care of because of AM with big hearts.

I feel sorry for her next husband or boyfriend. She will run all over him because of what she experienced in the past. She knows she can get away with showing No respect to men. Or in a way using them.

What would happen if Scott put his foot down and said enough is a enough. He cuts her out of his life and she is on her own. Would her view on life and relationships change?  What happens if she learned she cant get away with this most AM. Does she wake up and start looking at life different?

What about her next husband demanded respect or she can walk out the door. Would she change?

I feel many AM have changed our womens behaviour because of the way they think they need to act. They allowed the "be the man" ( in a good way not abusive) to exit our culture.

[Boethius]

D

[SANDRO43]

It is not men who have conditioned behaviour. It is society. The US has become a very "me me me" society.

This discussion is waxing philosophical, possibly to the Consolation of someone with an illustrious nickname like yours , so the highlighted statement begs the question: What is a society - an abstract concept - if not the result of the people who shape it?

To me, the result is not totally surprising in a culture that has always stressed individual vs. collective values - a trait noticed and explained more than 100 years ago (see http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?ind=reviews&op=entry_view&iden=52).

I'm  not advocating that either model is necessarily better than the other - both have their pros and cons - but sticking to the same model for 300+ years is bound to show its limits eventually .

[BC]

It is not men who have conditioned behaviour.  It is society.  The US has become a very "me me me" society.  That applies equally to men and women.

Nothing would happen if Scott "put his foot down".  She is who she is.  Nothing short of an epiphany will change that.

If we were static beings, we would all be happy, the divorce rate 0 and probably pretty bored.  Both men and women in a relationship change over time. IMHO relationships by their nature are not built to last and those that do are either very exceptional, represent a huge amount of work or are simply acquiescent.

There is very little one can do in except do your homework well beforehand, accept the changes as they come, work, work, work, and hope for the best.  The end cannot be determined by one party alone.

In many ways this whole RW thing is about chasing a fantasy.. A woman who will remain the same as on the wedding day, both physically and mentally.

Might as well marry an AW.. it's probably what you'll end up with anyway within a few short years, except for maybe a little accent and some offbeat feeding, spending and traveling habits.

[Sculpto]

1980.. all the girls I dated in High School demanded to be treated equally.. so, myself and all my friends did what they asked.. and we expected the ladies to pay for us sometimes too.

1990.. all the girls I dated since high school still demanded to be treated equally but now with the added demand that she be treated like a lady.. meaning.. I pay for everything.  Oh, the added demand of at least three orgasms for her..

2000.. all the girls I dated since 1990 now demanded not equality, but, submission to the GODDESS.  I must pay for everything and never question their wisdom and obvious superiority to all men.. service their bodies when THEY wanted it and ONLY when they wanted it..

2000 1/2...  I started dating younger women and had a lot less BS.  Not BS free.. but a tolerable level.

2001... self respect returned to healthy level.

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott I have not commented much in this thread. I dont agree with the way you are conducting yourself but thats my opinion. You know what makes you sleep better at night and its your decision. I wish you the best.

I would like to use your last post to convey my opinion on the way the American society is going especially in relationships.

American males have been complaining about the attitudes of American women for many years. They say they are demanding,materialistic, with a big sense of entitlement. Whos at fault?? I think a lot of the blame should be place at the feet of the AM.

I think some AM enable women and justify their actions. After a period of time we have conditioned a lot women here in the US to be the way they are. Now we dont like our women and are looking in different countries for women who used to be like AW from years ago. We find them but put them in a culture that changes them to the type of women we were trying to get away from. Especially the young ones.

I will use Scotts wife in his post as an example. She has learned she can make decisions and not be responsible for them. There will be someone to bail her out. This creates bad behaviour an a attitude towards life which is not healthy. She can do whatever and knows there will be no consequences for her. She is taken care of because of AM with big hearts.

I feel sorry for her next husband or boyfriend. She will run all over him because of what she experienced in the past. She knows she can get away with showing No respect to men. Or in a way using them.

What would happen if Scott put his foot down and said enough is a enough. He cuts her out of his life and she is on her own. Would her view on life and relationships change?  What happens if she learned she cant get away with this most AM. Does she wake up and start looking at life different?

What about her next husband demanded respect or she can walk out the door. Would she change?

I feel many AM have changed our womens behaviour because of the way they think they need to act. They allowed the "be the man" ( in a good way not abusive) to exit our culture.

I won’t argue that my wife has too much of a sense of entitlement.  I sense from the other posters that the feeling is that all women do.  But her actions since the separation have not shown this anywhere near the level that you suggest.  For example, she chose to work rather than accept government handouts.  She used some help to get herself back on her feet (though she really is far from that point yet), but didn’t expect to be taken care of by anyone.  She has asked me for nothing.  The things I have helped her with were things that I offered and that she accepted.

Your attitude of demanding respect or kicking her out the door is rather hard-line.  Sure, we deserve respect IF WE HAVE EARNED IT, but respect is not earned by such an attitude or such actions. Being feared is not the same thing as being respected.  Some men don’t know the difference.  There’s an old saying that those who demand respect the most are the ones who tend to deserve it the least.

I agree that the attitudes of AW have deteriorated a lot in the last several years.  My experience has been the same as Sculpto’s.  But I think there is a middle ground between the fully whipped AM and the attitude that you suggest.

The most important type of respect is self respect.  I feel that my actions give me that.  Whether she or you or anyone else respects me is not nearly as important as how much I respect myself.

As far as her  “next” husband, he isn’t my concern.

[Ooooops]

Many people have a soft spot for the one the once loved.

Once loved or still love?   I have no soft spot for my ex at all...   

[HiTech]

I have no soft spot for my ex at all.

I have a soft spot but no ex at all.

HITech

[Ooooops]

I have a soft spot but no ex at all.

 

[Maxx2]

Once loved or still love?   I have no soft spot for my ex at all...    

It is a male trait to try and hang on to what they clearly are losing. Just like in the lyrics of Percy Sledge.  

When a man loves a woman
Can't keep his mind on nothing else
He'll trade the world
For the good thing he's found
If she's bad he can't see it
She can do no wrong
Turn his back on his best friend
If he put her down

When a man loves a woman
Spend his very last dime
Tryin' to hold on to what he needs
He'd give up all his comfort
Sleep out in the rain
If she said that's the way it ought to be

Well, this man loves a woman
I gave you everything I had
Tryin' to hold on to your precious love
Baby, please don't treat me bad

When a man loves a woman
Down deep in his soul
She can bring him such misery
If she plays him for a fool
He's the last one to know
Lovin' eyes can't ever see

When a man loves a woman
He can do no wrong
He can never own some other girl
Yes when a man loves a woman
I know exactly how he feels
'Cause baby, baby, baby, you're my world

When a man loves a woman.....

[ScottinCrimea]

Well I ignored everyone's warnings of imminent disaster and had her come over today.  I hadn't seen her in a couple of months.  We have been communicating by phone and we had agreed that it was better to file a joint petition for removal of conditions rather than going the abuse route.  Her divorce lawyer also lists herself as an immigration attorney so she went and got the documents from her to bring to me to put the application packet togetherinstead of having her do it.

Her attorney must not be a very good one, because she told my wife that, because we were not living together, we could not file a joint petition.  This of course is false and I showed my wife the USCIS information that clearly states this.  Even if we divorce while the application is being processed, all my wife has to do is send a copy of the divorce decree to them.  Some people have claimed that if this happens she must withdraw the first application and send in a whole new one and pay a new fee, but this is not the case.

Her attorney also had her get fingerprinted by some official Utah state government office and they provided her with a document that stated that based on a name check, verified by fingerprinting, there was no record of her in the criminal database.  She thought that this met the biometrics requirement for the application.  I had to straighten this idea out and show her the official instructions.


I pass this information along in case someone is going through a similar situation and has some of the same misconceptions.

We had a very nice conversation.  She says her greatest sadness in the whole thing was the feeling of having lost her best friend.  She believes that we do very well as friends and can continue as such, but that we just don’t do as well as husband and wife.  I think she’s probably right.  I think her expectations of me as a husband and my expectations of her as a wife were just too incompatible.  I also think that her daughter would be a continual source of conflict.  It’s much nicer not having that little diva around.

So is she “playing me” as some here have suggested?  I really don’t believe so.  She doesn’t ask anything of me and no, I don’t believe the “money letter” is coming eventually.  We may still have some battles ahead when divorce settlement time comes around, but I’ll deal with that as it happens.  My attitude is that I will be fair but firm in getting everything I am entitled to despite any “soft spot” I may have for her.

[Ade]

Scott, I'm happy that this hasn't turned into one of those nightmare DV cases one hears about now and then. From what I read into your posts I guess that is more of a testament to how you've handled this rather than anything else. Maybe if you'd taken a more threatening or demanding approach she would have gone along with the bad influences at the shelter and you'd now be facing DV charges; as a spectator, it certainly seemed like you were on that knife-edge for a while.

[BC]

I pass this information along in case someone is going through a similar situation and has some of the same misconceptions.

We had a very nice conversation.  She says her greatest sadness in the whole thing was the feeling of having lost her best friend.  She believes that we do very well as friends and can continue as such, but that we just don’t do as well as husband and wife.  I think she’s probably right.  I think her expectations of me as a husband and my expectations of her as a wife were just too incompatible.  I also think that her daughter would be a continual source of conflict.  It’s much nicer not having that little diva around.

So is she “playing me” as some here have suggested?  I really don’t believe so.  She doesn’t ask anything of me and no, I don’t believe the “money letter” is coming eventually.  We may still have some battles ahead when divorce settlement time comes around, but I’ll deal with that as it happens.  My attitude is that I will be fair but firm in getting everything I am entitled to despite any “soft spot” I may have for her.

Scott,

Glad you're posting this and as SJ seems to suggest, good to see an example of how things can proceed if that 'knee jerk' reaction leading to a true train wreck can be somehow avoided.

I find your story overall quite interesting, mostly that you lived together for an extended period in FSU.  I would think in FSU she had a rather dominant role in your relationship (no.. not whips and chains) while you lived there and maybe vice versa when you moved back to the US.  It sounds like, in essence that she is a rather strong willed person that may not be willing to reverse role in the US.  Rather than you or her acquiescing, she jumps in the deep end of the pool to prove (mainly to herself) that she can swim alone.

I say this because I noted that the when my wife feels unable to directly control her surroundings here, she attempts to dominate in the relationship even more.. sort of a 'If I can't control that then I'll control harder what I think I can.." whereas when we visit RU she's distracted by doing things outside the relationship.

Just pondering... - maybe babbling..

[Maxx2]

I was PMing an immigration attorney on one of these boards. I said to him that my observation was that 9 times out of 10 when a divorce is in the works and the wife hasn't got her LPR card yet a DV charge will follow. He replied back that that was his opinion also and that of his immigration lawyer colleagues. Scott seems to be the one in ten. I just hope that this favorable outcome of his in not sited as the likely outcome with others in similar situations. I would hate to see a guy putting himself in harm's way because people here encourage him to do as Scott has done. After all there is such a bias for doing nice for Russian women (a natural protective instinct) that this is a likelihood. I hope some here will take the opposite approach of advising extreme caution for the 90%.


Maxx       

[ScottinCrimea]

BC, I think you hit the nail right on the head.  She was used to living alone and being in control most of her life and while I lived there she was able to basically continue in that role, and I know the frustration of suddenly being in a position where you are forced to relinquish much of the control to another person.

I sense that, despite her difficult situation at the moment, she is happier now because she has more of a sense of control over herself and her daughter.  That's much of the reason why she doesn't want to ask for any help.

She really didn't have much control over her daughter in Ukraine and I think she is enjoying the fact that her daughter's limited English allows her to now have control.  I wonder if subconsciously she is limiting her daughter's learning to hold onto her.  Her daughter is not attending any English classes now, doesn't really have any friends here, and spends all day either chatting with her Russian friends on the internet or speaking Russian with her mother.

I just noticed last night that she has posted that she is engaged to some 30 year old internet buddy from Saratov that she has never met.  This should be very interesting...

[ScottinCrimea]

I was PMing an immigration attorney on one of these boards. I said to him that my observation was that 9 times out of 10 when a divorce is in the works and the wife hasn't got her LPR card yet a DV charge will follow. He replied back that that was his opinion also and that of his immigration lawyer colleagues. Scott seems to be the one in ten. I just hope that this favorable outcome of his in not sited as the likely outcome with others in similar situations. I would hate to see a guy putting himself in harm's way because people here encourage him to do as Scott has done. After all there is such a bias for doing nice for Russian women (a natural protective instinct) that this is a likelihood. I hope some here will take the opposite approach of advising extreme caution for the 90%.


Maxx       

Maxx, I agree with you.  In a situation such as mine the odds are definitely that an abuse petition will be filed and one should be extremely cautious.  The woman just has too many people convincing her that this is the easiest way for her to go, and they are more willing to help her with this than to work out a joint filing arrangement.  For example, her attorney was willing to do the DV filing for free, but since we decided to go the joint route, we're on our own.  Only the fact that my wife wanted to remain friends gave her the strength to do the right thing.

No offense, but if I had taken the advice of some here and acted how many have suggested, the outcome would have been very different.

[Maxx2]

No offense, but if I had taken the advice of some here and acted how many have suggested, the outcome would have been very different.

Thank you Scott. I learned a great deal from your ordeal. I wish you the best and I mean that.


Maxx 

[Boethius]

This discussion is waxing philosophical, possibly to the Consolation of someone with an illustrious nickname like yours , so the highlighted statement begs the question: What is a society - an abstract concept - if not the result of the people who shape it?

Very nicely stated .  The moniker is an homage rather than an attempt to equate myself to such a great mind.

I agree society is the result of the people who shape it.  However, society is made up of men and women of all ages. 

I'm  not advocating that either model is necessarily better than the other - both have their pros and cons - but sticking to the same model for 300+ years is bound to show its limits eventually .

I can't accept this, as I do not believe everything is as dire as portrayed on message boards.