Realities of FSUW

[brucen36]

Yes, but when you have one person insisting that five or six other people are wrong and are "misreading" something, then I usually side with the five or six.

The majority 5 or 6???   

[Misha]

The majority 5 or 6???   

LOL! I was waiting for you  :evil: Yes, but it is not an absolute, objective majority, but a local majority that has reached a tentative consensus 

[brucen36]

LOL! I was waiting for you  :evil: Yes, but it is not an absolute, objective majority, but a local majority that has reached a tentative consensus 

All majorities are local majorities and relative.  This is the best we have as I stated before....RELATIVE to IMHO's.  No such thing as absolutes.

[brucen36]

Gator, it is not polite to presume anything about someone. So, yes, it was a jibe, but I see based on your reaction that it did touch a nerve  :evil:

The following is pretty much a presumption by you even though you didn't explicitly use the word 'presume'.

Let me guess, you certainly think that you have much monetary success 

[Doll]

Call it a guilty pleasure 

It's an addiction, Misha   

[Misha]

The following is pretty much a presumption by you even though you didn't explicitly use the word 'presume'.

I did not use the word "presume" but "assume." These are two different words with different meanings. And, in the quote you cite, I was actually bending backwards not to assume anything about you. Rather than saying "You must be one of these men that...." (an assumption) I politely asked you a question to confirm or deny a presumption. This highlights the difference between presuming (and asking to avoid incorrect assumptions) and assuming.

[Misha]

It's an addiction, Misha   

Alas, I concur, it is 

[brucen36]

I did not use the word "presume" but "assume." These are two different words with different meanings. And, in the quote you cite, I was actually bending backwards not to assume anything about you. Rather than saying "You must be one of these men that...." (an assumption) I politely asked you a question to confirm or deny a presumption. This highlights the difference between presuming (and asking to avoid incorrect assumptions) and assuming.

Yes I expected you to spin it like that.  However, the polite question would have been to ask, 'what is your monetary level, not 'let me guess...such and such and such', why would you guess one way or another?  You know essentially nil about me.  That you guessed in one direction really does imply a presumption.

[brucen36]

Many? Again, who are these hordes of women? Yes, I did not agree with Zhena's perspective as I found she overgeneralizes, and, yes, I believe that individual RW can overgeneralize about RW, in the same way that some WM can overgeneralize about WM.

I could ask the same about which hordes point you to making the following generalization, yes it is a generalization:

most RW (there are exceptions) are not materialistic and will not marry a man if they do not love him, no matter if he has a lot of money.

 My opinion is not based on women in agencies or women who have married foreigner, but the average Natasha or Sveta that you are likely to bump into in the streets of Moscow, Irkutsk or Ekaterinburg.

What data are you basing these opinions on?  Your wife and her few acquaintances?  You do realize there are tens of millions of women in the FSU?  Why do you put more weight on the average Sveta's?  Just because more than one told you this?  Moreover, the Sveta's that told you this may well OVERgeneralize as yourself astutely pointed out above.  I am not even saying you are wrong, you may well be right, but to come up with a generalization on what few encounters you've had is well....naive.

[pitbull]

SJ, I want to go on the record as totally agreeing about this part.  In my own situation when "A" and I sat down and started putting things on paper I also showed her how I do my budgeting.  From my reading here and elsewhere I expected her eyes to glaze over and her ears to grow a thin layer of skin.. but.. she did not and in fact was listening attentively and asked excellent questions about how finance works in the usa.. the availability of credit.. the security of my apartment from eviction and tons of other relevant things.  

I told her how much I would give her each week and for how long, what i would pay for for both of us and what she would have to find money for on her own.  For example.. she likes alcohol almost every day and I do not.  I am not going to pay for her booze.. she is going to have to find money for that on her own.. unless I am in the mood to drink and then I would make an exception.  On the other hand, she has a full ride scholarship at her Uni and there is no way I can afford to send her to Stanford, so, since she is already on correspondence she will travel back to her city twice a year for exams.. at first i will pay for it but once she is settled in and earning on her own she will, because she wants to.

Sculpto,
If your GF comes to the US and you put the above described financial plan into practice, you are in for one rude awakening!

Do not stop posting, please, it will be one interesting story

[Misha]

you may well be right, but to come up with a generalization on what few encounters you've had is well....naive.

Well, my generalization is based on over 13+ years spent traveling to the FSU and likely hundreds of women that I have met (met not dated). If, based on your one trip to the FSU, you believe that most women in the FSU are materialistic and will marry a man if they do not love him, if he has a lot of money, I will respectfully disagree based on my experience.

[brucen36]

Well, my generalization is based on over 13+ years spent traveling to the FSU and likely hundreds of women that I have met (met not dated). If, based on your one trip to the FSU, you believe that most women in the FSU are materialistic and will marry a man if they do not love him, if he has a lot of money, I will respectfully disagree based on my experience.

Hundreds, yes it's a lot, but still miniscule compared to the actual number of women in the FSU.  Moreover, it was probably not a random sampling.  You most likely gravitated to a certain type of woman and put more weight on her statements.  Moreover, I have not believed anything, like I said you may well be right.  But the best you can say is this is my experience, not the generalization you tried to make a 'truth'.  In fact the one girl I met and her friends and family are not materialistic at all, but so what? And to say they are not materialistic may itself be a stretch, since you can't simply go on what people tell you.  Again, rather naive.  So what does that allow me to conclude about the general population?  Nothing.

[ECOCKS]

I see the thread has gone full circle and we're now on to willy waving.

Sigh....

Sad how so many of these (look at Scott's, Ken's and this one as examples) degenerate so quickly from substance to finger-pointing, hearsay and personality-driven dueling.

 

[Doll]

Well, my generalization is based on over 13+ years spent traveling to the FSU and likely hundreds of women that I have met (met not dated).

Misha (and others), listen: things that RW tell WM, what they think and what they do may be veeeeeeeeeeeery different. Very!

[brucen36]

Misha (and others), listen: things that RW tell WM, that they think and what they do may be veeeeeeeeeeeery different. Very!

Exactly.

[Misha]

Misha (and others), listen: things that RW tell WM, that they think and what they do may be veeeeeeeeeeeery different. Very!

Again, I am not basing this on what women told me, but on time spent with friends and acquaintances. It is based on seeing women in their daily lives and talking to them as friends, not potential dates or wives. Again, I stand by my positive appraisal of most Russian women (there are exceptions). If you and Bruce want to tar all RW as materialistic and in it only for the money, then I will respectfully ask that we agree to disagree. I hold most RW in high esteem. If that makes me naive, sue me  

[Doll]

What we talk about between "us, girls" and what we tell WM if they ask about RW materialism is very different!
Well, if I live in Russia and a Canadian asks me if I prefer marriage for love or marriage to WM with money ......you have 12 guesses (first 11 don't count).
Love, of course.

[Misha]

You most likely gravitated to a certain type of woman and put more weight on her statements. 

Yes, I gravitated to women who were not in agencies, regular women living regular lives and doing the best to support their families through working and love and all the normal things that normal people do in the FSU. If meeting decent people in the FSU and being their friends makes me naive, then I will adopt the title as a badge of honor. Call me naive, I will take it as a compliment  

[brucen36]

Again, I am not basing this on what women told me, but on time spent with friends and acquaintances. It is based on seeing women in their daily lives and talking to them as friends, not potential dates or wives. Again, I stand by my positive appraisal of most Russian women (there are exceptions). If you and Bruce want to tar all RW as materialistic and in it only for the money, then I will respectfully ask that we agree to disagree. I hold most RW in high esteem. If that makes me naive, sue me  

Wow, I thought you had some logic in you.  I told you more than once that I do not tar the RW as materialistic and in it for the money.  Yet you keep PRESUMING this about me.  Rather impolite as another member here has stated.  

You say it's not based on what they told you and then you go on to say it's from talking to them as friends.  How can they talk to you without telling you things.  And no one is implying that they were all dates.  And you yourself said it was only 100s of women.  Have you seen the last population count in the FSU?  And yes it does make you naive to presume this generalization, but don't worry, I won't sue you.  

[Misha]

asks me if I prefer marriage for love or marriage to WM with money ......

Doll, I already know your preferences, I just disagree with your need to project these preferences onto every other RW on this planet  

[brucen36]

Yes, I gravitated to women who were not in agencies, regular women living regular lives and doing the best to support their families through working and love and all the normal things that normal people do in the FSU. If meeting decent people in the FSU and being their friends makes me naive, then I will adopt the title as a badge of honor. Call me naive, I will take it as a compliment  

Then you prove it yourself -- your sample which you base your generalization on is biased.  You are naive  .  But hey it's honorable .

[Misha]

Wow, I thought you had some logic in you.  I told you more than once that I to not tar the RW as materialistic and in it for the money.  Yet you keep PRESUMING this about me.  Rather impolite as another member here has stated.  

No, actually, it is a rational assumption based on the evidence. You keep objecting to my affirmation that RW are not wholly materialistic and are concerned about things other than money and gifts, which only leads, logically, to the conclusion that you believe the inverse.

[Misha]

Then you prove it yourself -- your sample which you base your generalization on is biased.  You are naive  .  But hey it's honorable .

Bruce, at this point, I am biting my tongue very hard not to say some rude things to you. So, I am calling it quits. I will not post anything else in this thread. Believe what you will 

[brucen36]

No, actually, it is a rational assumption based on the evidence. You keep objecting to my affirmation that RW are not wholly materialistic and are concerned about things other than money and gifts, which only leads, logically, to the conclusion that you believe the inverse.

Then perhaps Gator also made a rational assumption?  I am not objecting, you are obviously not reading what I wrote.  I said that you may be right.  I only object to the means by which you are coming up with your generalization.  It is completely illogical for you to presume the inverse.

[brucen36]

Bruce, at this point, I am biting my tongue very hard not to say some rude things to you. So, I am calling it quits. I will not post anything else in this thread. Believe what you will 

That usually means you feel you're losing.  But ok call it quits.  I'm not trying to belittle you, just imposing a little logic.