Realities of FSUW

[Mir]

I have a question for the anti "voodoo" pro science crowd...

Sculpto

Are you part of an pro voodoo anti science crowd?

And where does god fit into the voodoo mumbo jumbo?
Oh I get it, this crowd believes that god has made voodoo dolls of all humans and disease is the result of Him sticking pins in them. 

[remiel6]

actually I found most of the FSUW I have met to be very well read and wonderful to engage in conversations on topics like this and literature. I wouldn't call the ones I met "close minded" at all. Now, I haven't met all FSUW so my very un statistical analysis isn't worth much, but I haven't met many close minded women there.
as for proof, empirical proof is not the only kind of proof that exists. It is not the only way to verify something existence, but I can't and won't make the argument for you. This is something you have to go out and find yourself. As I told a friend once, if you want to find God go over and open the door and go out and look for him. I did not say it would be easy, in fact it will be the hardest thing you will ever have to find, but if you try you just might find him.
I'm going to stay in my little home between voodoo and science. I've already wandered around both areas and me feet are sore 

[OlgaH]

"Who governs human life?.. No brick, will ever fall on anyone's head just out of the blue... "

"The Master and Margarita"

[youtube=425,350]U_9irZSO6j4[/youtube]

[ECOCKS]

...around both areas and me feet are sore 

Yeah walking across a fire pit will do that to you!   :evil:

Re: FSUW

Back to the whole narrow-wide/open-closed issue. One thing that seems so surprising is that despite the wealth of reading, television, internet availability, etc. that you keep encountering these attitudes. Next time you are in-country, try some of the following fun activities to enliven your stay:

* start asking about substitutions on a restaurant menu

* present the view that fans do NOT cause illness and sitting on a cold concrete surface does not affect child-bearing

* insist on opening windows in a mashrutka with 30 people crammed on board, stagnant air and an odor that makes your gag reflex kick in

* find actions of your own which challenge their "box," they will be challenging yours daily

Now, that said, try figuring out how some of these little babushkas manage to stay in business with their simple street kiosks and metro closets while figuring out which bribes to make, taxes to pay (or avoid) and dealing with insane landlords or their agents.

No one says they are stupid (at least nobody I know of) but their experience with considering alternatives is severely limited. This seems obvious given that they are still in their home country and we were the ones actually out of ours and into their environments. Wider horizons and experiences combined with lack of experience in different systems.


 

[Wienerin]

Because RW have limited knowledge of English and there for put up with the BS ? 

my limited English'd suggest "therefore" above... (it took me a minute or two to understand who was there and what for  )

[Wienerin]

are voodoo and science my only options Do I have nowhere in-between I can rest my weary head. Here is what I will say. We all know the pitfalls of organized religion. Still in our attempt to rush away from the "creation of the rich to keep the poor in line" sometimes disguised as science, a person should remember this. Religions, are not based by men in rooms inventing stories and making up claims. They are based on people trying to interpret and understand something odd that happened "didn't we just put that body behind that giant rock and now its not there" "Isn't that man who wrote that book illiterate" In our lives we all do this. This is how religion is founded. If one is going to attack the mystical experience one has to  attack that. To attack the church is worthless. As it is worthless to ask the dead man not in his tomb and the people who did not find him there to prove he wasn't there. They were witnesses and the science is calling them liars. So science has the burden of proving its point, not the other way around. A point I might add it can't not disprove because there is no external data. That is why I mentioned here is where science gets in trouble. A) it calls them liars, it has the burden of proof. B) it can't collect independent data to discredit the story and c) to say that because something never happened in any other circumstance is not evidence that it did not happen in this circumstance. You have to disprove this moment in time, not some vague innuendo. To disprove any religion as false you must disprove the element that gave rise to it in the first place.

Excuse me but don't you put the cart before the horse? If someone came to me saying he's just observed, say, Virgin Mary ascending to Heaven supported by a horde of angels, - is it MY burden to prove that he's not lying? Is that really how your logical processes work? The sceptic doesn't have to collect any data to prove that vision has no substance in fact or a miracle didn't happen. It's the staunch proponent of the truth (material truth) of a vision or reality of a miracle, who has to provide hard fact

... though of course there are always "sculptos", who do not require anything to belive, just a word of a friend of a friend of a friend whose mother-in-law's third cousin once removed is romored to have witnessed something.

[ECOCKS]

Reminds me of the question from the last 10 years or so.

Now that so many people have cameras, video cams and cell phones, how come we haven't actually caught any aliens? It seems that we used to hear about them appearing every month or so but now, nothing........

Oooooeeeeeooooaaaaaaaaa...........

[Wienerin]

Of course they are.

Do you thinks - as a strict stickler for facts, that your saying so makes it so? Then please, explain to me why... Never had any problems reconciling by belief in G-d of my Fathers with my interest in different scientific fields.

However, there are scientists that believe in one god or another and have to perform some pretty amazing intellectual gymnastics in order to come to terms with the contradictions.

That's what I humbly ask - show me these irreconcilable contradictions which torture these unnamed poor fellows into intellectual gymnastics. With your "one god or another", BTW, you've shown that you do not quite know what you're saying. Also< I gave you a hint that G-d and religion aren't quite the same.

But let's not digress (mea culpa as usual ) - I want to see the evidence of belief in G-d interfering with scientific pursuits. Let's stick to facts

Science is about fact, and about probabilities not wishful thinking; Occam's razor and all that.

I'm think I have a good grasp on why people want to believe and I understand the benefits to some people.

Yes, I do see a big difference; one requires a intelligent, omnipotent magical agent the other is just a natural event that conforms to what we know of the universe.
 
And yes, few things can be proven absolutely but that doesn't invalidate unproven theories that adhere to facts and behaviour that we do know.

Yes, I realize that there's a big difference.
[/quote]

[remiel6]

yes, you have the burden of proof. No one forces you to believe him, but you are calling him a liar, therefore you have to prove the assertion is a lie, especially when the event is question has mulitple witnesses.

[Sculpto]

G-d is about a life philosophy, not about material facts. As to creation - do you see much difference between "And G-d created..." - and the Big Bang theory (which also cannot be proven in any way)?
and there's some difference between G-d and religion. One can believe in G-d but not conform to any established religion or even religious group. Religion is more about tradition and ritual.

And it would seem by some of your comments you are only willing to accept one view of god and religion.  This is why we disagree on so many things because it seems that this view you hold extends far beyond the simple question of God and religion.

To Sculpto, - I DO believe in G-d. And I KNOW about science. You see the difference between belief and knowledge? I don't think so - not as far as could be observed in your posts.

Of course I see the difference.  But sometimes what people believe is a fact is in fact nothing more than a strongly held belief.  That goes for me as much as it does for everyone else here and beyond.

BTW, all these remarks about narrow-mindedness, and RW being narrow-minded and stubborn in their inadequate and narrow views, are extremely rude. It makes me wonder as to exactly WHY should an enlightened AM seek such a poor creature in marriage. This is a very strange site for propagation of such beliefs. Also name calling isn't a proof of anything, but that the name caller is an uncouth lout

No it isn't a strange site to discuss observations about the character and culture of FSUW.  No one is perfect and the more I know and observe FSUW the more I see both the positive and negatives.  I was curious if my observation was unique to me, or, if other men had the same experience.  It would seem I am not alone.

And finally, I suggest you go back and look at the things you have said to me and how you have used negative criticisms directed at me.  I told you before, I am holding up a mirror.    But I also said I like you and that was sincere.  You see, one of the reasons I thought i might find some cultural similiarity with FSUW is I personally have a tendency to say things as I see them without varnishing them with softness and silliness to prevent offense.  But I have also learned over the years that sometimes it is easier to achieve a desired result with a very careful choice of words.  What I write here in this forum and how I interact with people in real life might be substantially different.

[remiel6]

on the alien note, in order for there to be aliens I don't have to prove every single story is true. If one account ever in the history of mankind is true then the claim that aliens have visited, is indeed true. So on that note, for your scientific mind, there are more than 48 eye witnesses to the Roswell incident, a lot of whom had top secret clearance at the time of the event. Yet, there is not one single witness who ever came forward and said "yep, i was there it was a weather balloon." not one. read it the governement only changed its story not one, two, three, four, but five times. Still not one witness.

[ECOCKS]

WHoa! Too OT here. Off to Anything goes!

[Sculpto]

Sculpto

Are you part of an pro voodoo anti science crowd?

And where does god fit into the voodoo mumbo jumbo?
Oh I get it, this crowd believes that god has made voodoo dolls of all humans and disease is the result of Him sticking pins in them. 

Mir.. I do not follow any religion, though, I enjoy the ritual and ceremonies of many without ascribing to doctrine.  I also find the devotion of true believers, of any religion, to be fascinating.  For example the pilgrims who crawl on their knees before entering the Basilica of Guadalupe in Mexico City, or the devotees wlaking in circles around the rock in Mecca and so on..

Your comment about "vodoo mumbo jumbo" just shows a lack of respect for the beliefs of others.  You don't have to believe in it, but, why make fun of what someone else believes?  It is exactly that sort of mind set that leads to religious persecution all around the world.  Think about it.  I am not saying YOU are persecuting.. just that intolerance is not acceptable.

God exists I guess, but, I do not think of God as typical of the Judea/Christian tradition.  God is.  Thats all.. anything else I can not explain and don't want to try.  

[remiel6]

I'm not sure what to make of "of to anything goes" but insulting arguments you can't beat does not beat the argument. I can discuss a position without insulting anyone (or at least trying to) apparently some here can't. I find this childish and immature. What any of this has to do with the "realities of FSUW" is beyond me but i never tried so blatantly to insult someone as to hint that they were crazy which is how I take that post. I don't mind diversity of opinion, in fact I like it. I like argument ther is no god or aliens, but to allege someone is off in never, never land for making it is too far. I hope you have fun and good luck in your marriages and your search. I have many things to do without being called "nuts" by people who can't defend thier position.

[Sculpto]

Haha I am not in the least surprised aliens have come into the discussion.  I think everyone pretty much accepts that SOMETHING UNIDENTIFIED is "out there".  People seem to see things fairly regularly all accross the globe, so, the phenomena is not limited to any culture or location.

I would suggest that the lack of ability to explain these things is what led to the concepts of angels and perhaps even God.  

Also, did it occur to anyone that the so called "aliens" are not alien at all but are in fact a superior intelligence from right here on earth?

I have read quite a bit about the "snowman" mythology in Russia.  Apparently they are living right outside Moscow in the forest.  

[brucen36]

God exists I guess, but, I do not think of God as typical of the Judea/Christian tradition.  God is.  Thats all.. anything else I can not explain and don't want to try.  

Equally, god is not.

[ECOCKS]

Lighten up, we were getting further and further off topic (as you yourself note) so I opened an Aliens thread in the Anything Goes section of the forum board.

No one insulted you or called you "nuts" (at least in this thread) so quit making things up.

[brucen36]

I think everyone pretty much accepts that SOMETHING UNIDENTIFIED is "out there".

Wow, talk about over-generalizing.  This takes the cake.

[ECOCKS]

Oh come on, at least Yeti or Sasquatch living outside Moscow is FSU-related!   

[Wienerin]

Science is about fact, and about probabilities not wishful thinking; Occam's razor and all that.

Do you know that many instruments (if not the most) used in scientific reasoning and proving theories were devised by the acute minds of medieval religious scholars, - some even monks and priests, like Duns Scot or William of Occam? That the father of modern scientific methods was a Franciscan monk, a certain Roger Bacon?

I'm think I have a good grasp on why people want to believe and I understand the benefits to some people.

Maybe you are wrong? nu... about your "good grasp"? Also about benefits. Also about tortures of reconciling one'se belief and scientific purcuits  :evil:

Yes, I do see a big difference; one requires a intelligent, omnipotent magical agent the other is just a natural event that conforms to what we know of the universe.

Surely not "magical" See, that's what I mean when I say that you do not exactly know what you're talking about. And, pray, how do you (or any living scientist) know if the Big Bang was natural or whatever event, if it happened at all, and in what way it conforms to what "we" know of the Universe (and in what ways this THEORY fails to conform - and thus is not recognized by many and many scientists)
 

And yes, few things can be proven absolutely but that doesn't invalidate unproven theories that adhere to facts and behaviour that we do know.

Few? And you agree with "validating" and unproven theory - which however manages to adhere to facts (unproven?) and to "behaviour" (which? whose? what do you mean?)?

Thenm, my dear opponent, you are a deal more believer in something =- and it's not science! - than I am. G-d doesn't require you to take on trust any phenomena or fact, or refrain from digging into the origins or explanations. G-d doesn't require you to adopt a theory on the grounds that it has no explanation of proof in fact so the phenomena must be a miracle Do you know, how leery even the Catholic Church is of miracles and how severe are the rules and regulations for accepting a miracle? Some were tried for tens of years - and rejected. Vatican is not such a fool as these New Age mystics. Do you know, that there are excellent scientific research labs in various fields in Vatican?

What I cannot understand is why so many (if not the most) atheists and agnostics are so bitter against everyone who believes in G-d - even as unobtrusively as I do? To me G-d is all about the meaning of life, about the true measure of our goals, deeds and achievemnts or failures, more like moral foundation, conscience if you please, the yardstick for what we say or do...

nothing to do, as you could easily see, with chemical reactions, converging worlds, deividing cells, etc... I'm not a Christian, but Jesus also was not, - he was a Jew, steeped in Jewish tradition (with a twist ), so some of his sayings (or ascribed to him by the disciples) make sense to me. Like "My Kingdom is not of this World". That is - not of material and mortal worlds, but of spiritual only. And - within this one person, uniquely his|hers. And - only here, while the person lives, breathes, thinks. When one's brain dies, - its owner dies too.

[Wienerin]

Because RW are hotter than anything they can get in america and they have the leverage to obtain one of them.

let's be generous, - "incentives" sound better, don't they? Though naturally I'm not an authority on the subject of where ladies are hotter 

[Sculpto]

When one's brain dies, - its owner dies too.

how do you know that for sure?  I am guessing you also believe the soul is dead.. but again, how do you know that for sure?

so, you are taking a leap of faith based purely on what you are able to observe and what you have been taught by religion.  Yet, how many hundreds of millions of Hindus and Bhuddists would say that your somment is heretical?

God is, or is not.. doesn't matter.  Faith in something, whether voodoo or gremlins or tree nymphs or the party on Olympus is all equally bunk or beauty.. live and let live.

[Wienerin]

as for proof, empirical proof is not the only kind of proof that exists. It is not the only way to verify something existence, but I can't and won't make the argument for you. This is something you have to go out and find yourself. As I told a friend once, if you want to find God go over and open the door and go out and look for him.

Empirical proof for all material things is all there is. To say "existence" and "proof" in one sentence would mean - in the context of the discussion - to declare G-d a material being rather than a non-material concept that doesn't "exist" in our terms. Always was, always and everywhere is, always and everywhere will remain, - be there a single man with a living brain to muse over His "presence" (this is not an exact word but as has been noted above, RW have poor command of English language ), or not. Maybe G-d is a force of nature, maybe Nature itself... A less complex system cannot encompass another one of much higher level of complexity.

THe noted and revered scholastics whom I mentioned above (and many other besides) demanded that anything to be taken as a fact must ne proven. There's proof and proof of course but their criteria were very high - good enough for all the loftiest modern science.

[Ade]

Do you thinks - as a strict stickler for facts, that your saying so makes it so? Then please, explain to me why...

Because, to believe in the tooth fairy without reservation and without any substantiation you have throw out the fundemental principles of scientific method.

Never had any problems reconciling by belief in G-d of my Fathers with my interest in different scientific fields.

You can reconcile as much as you want, most people that claim to be in a similar situation do just that, ignoring that they are essentially hypocrites. I have more respect for those that openly say, "I choose to ignore reason and I have blind faith that god exists."

That's what I humbly ask - show me these irreconcilable contradictions which torture these unnamed poor fellows into intellectual gymnastics. With your "one god or another", BTW, you've shown that you do not quite know what you're saying. Also< I gave you a hint that G-d and religion aren't quite the same.

But let's not digress (mea culpa as usual ) - I want to see the evidence of belief in G-d interfering with scientific pursuits. Let's stick to facts

Who said anything about torture? I do know that many scientists struggle with the contradictions of their blind faith and their objective, scientific leanings. I guess that a lot of people just choose not to look too closely at their views. Most, I think, just cannot function without the idea that there is a god somewhere, the reality that there isn't is just too overwhelming for any number of reasons.

Whatever, no one is going to be changing their opinion today.

[Wienerin]

And it would seem by some of your comments you are only willing to accept one view of god and religion.  This is why we disagree on so many things because it seems that this view you hold extends far beyond the simple question of God and religion.

I do not know even where to start on this... Am I the only one to see a tiny contradiction?
I do not understand how you could judge me as having "only one view" - when you do not even begin to understand what this view is. A G-d is nor the same as religion at all.

Of course I see the difference.  But sometimes what people believe is a fact is in fact nothing more than a strongly held belief.  That goes for me as much as it does for everyone else here and beyond.

Again I do not presume what you wrote here, but either something is a fact - observable, recurrent under similar circumstances and conditions, not depending on the beliefs of the observers, or it's not a fact. A fact exists by itself, whether one believes in it or not.

No it isn't a strange site to discuss observations about the character and culture of FSUW.  No one is perfect and the more I know and observe FSUW the more I see both the positive and negatives.  I was curious if my observation was unique to me, or, if other men had the same experience.  It would seem I am not alone.

There isn't such a thing as "character and culture of FSUW'. So to say that every single one is stubborn, narrow-minded oir whatever other unpleasant characteristic was ascribed to an unexistent "theoretical model of a spherical horse in vacuum" - is reflective more on the men who have such notions than otherwise.

And finally, I suggest you go back and look at the things you have said to me and how you have used negative criticisms directed at me.  I told you before, I am holding up a mirror.   

You really see no difference in even a vigorous attack of your beliefs and described view and a personal attack on me as a "narrow-minded" reperesentative of a mythical-typical FSUW? It's pitiful

But I also said I like you and that was sincere.  You see, one of the reasons I thought i might find some cultural similiarity with FSUW is I personally have a tendency to say things as I see them without varnishing them with softness and silliness to prevent offense.  But I have also learned over the years that sometimes it is easier to achieve a desired result with a very careful choice of words.  What I write here in this forum and how I interact with people in real life might be substantially different.

I also rather like you - as I do most people unless something happens And I try like crazy not to offend any true believer - even when they try to "convert me". Tough there is a limit. I will put up a real fight no holds barred against everyone saying that such-and-such "cures" cancer and AIDS/HIV... because this "recommendation" is really harmful, not a simple erroneous belief.