Kharkiv (Jan - Feb 09) - My experience so far

[Daveman]

Viva Davemangra!

Gator was right... God bless their hungry souls...


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The only thing I can say is that age is not really only a number for me.  I simply do not view a young lady as my equal. I don't mean she is lesser in any way, but perhaps not on an equal plane.  Very difficult for me to put this into words -- but in my own mind, I cannot view her as an equal partner if she's a lot younger.  There you have it.

[Doll]

Unless your concerns can be definitively and unequivocally connected to age - then I wonder why providing that number has any value.

I was not thinking of "let it be a couple of years and then we'll see" like some men think when they marry 20-25 years younger girls. God bless them.
 

[Admin]

I was not thinking of "let it be a couple of years and then we'll see" like some men think when they marry 20-25 years younger girls. God bless them.
 

Doll,

It is exactly these sorts of stereotypes, promulgated without FACT or substance, that leads to the disinformation that plagues those of us with legitimate (and normal) marriages.

You have no idea what "some men think." You are merely supposing - which inevitably leads to rumor-mongering based on myth and supposition.

Take it back to the things which can be "known" - rather than those which are purely conjecture.

- Dan

[Ooooops]

Consider . . . what would it be like if the question of age simply never came up?

But it does, sooner or later...

Sure, you have the benefit of a visual - but how many times have you been surprised by learning someone's age?

Not too often, to tell you the truth.   +/- 5 years is the normal mistake.    Not -20 ever.   

[Doll]

You have no idea what "some men think." You are merely supposing

Not really- like I said I dated the older men so no more.
Dan , read what and how you answered me- exactly the way "you don't know, listen to me and do what I tell you"  You teach me , you have no doubts you are right and I am wrong,
This is exactly what I didn't want.

[Admin]

Not really- like I said I dated the older men so no more.
Dan , read what and how you answered me- exactly the way "you don't know, listen to me and do what I tell you"  You teach me , you have no doubts you are right and I am wrong,
This is exactly what I didn't want.

Doll,

Quite sincerely - I did not set out to teach you anything. I asked you a series of questions to try to understand you. For me (and it may be different for others), I learn best when I have facts and logic to utilize. I do not relate well to a purely emotional position. To this point, you have expressed your feelings - emotions - but you have not provided me what I need to be equipped to understand those feelings/emotions.

You may not believe me - but this is a topic I am absolutely NOT 'hard-over' about, and my mind is open about the outcome. But first, I need to understand the sources of the other argument - and at least for me, you have not provided that.

In a sincere exchange of ideas, both parties genuinely WANT the other to understand them and will modify their 'styles' to provide what the other needs. I don't think we are quite 'there' yet.

- Dan

[Doll]

To this point, you have expressed your feelings - emotions - but you have not provided me what I need to be equipped to understand those feelings/emotions.

What kind of "equipment" do you need to be provided with?
 BTW most of "inconveniences" in the marriages (dating) with the older men ARE emotions.  All marriages are feelings -emotions.

[Admin]

What kind of "equipment" do you need to be provided with?
 BTW most of "inconveniences" in the marriages (dating) with the older men ARE emotions.  All marriages are feelings -emotions.

I have already asked the questions that might help me to understand your emotional position, but you did not answer. Candidly, your answers to those previous questions are likely to lead to additional questions, as I seek to understand your position.

Yes, it is true that marriages are often (not always) based on emotions - it is also true that many (most?) people need to have a rational logical basis in addition to the feelings. One hopes we (mankind) are more than just flung about by our emotions - true?

What I am seeking are the facts and details associated with your advocacy that age is an important factor - and that age should be divulged by couples. You may be right - but I want to know WHY you are advocating your position - what is the basis?

I also want to know where the age factor 'fits' within your priority schema. Is it, for example, more or less important than income - than children - than religion - etc.

- Dan

[Doll]

What I am seeking are the facts and details associated with your advocacy that age is an important factor - and that age should be divulged by couples. You may be right - but I want to know WHY you are advocating your position - what is the basis?

OK- later, I have to go to work.

[Doll]

Is it, for example, more or less important than income - than children - than religion - etc.

More

[Doll]

Also, Dan, make sure I am equipped with the facts and details regarding "age is not important", ok?

but I want to know WHY you are advocating your position

I also want to know why you are advocating your position.

 

[CCowboy]

I'll add my 2 cents, although I seem to lack credibility by a few.  Everything is a personal choice and decision between two people, whether it's age, smoking, children, and a host of other issues to be decided.  As far as age, there are what people seem as reasonable and everyone has their comfort zones.  For Doll, she preferred a smaller age gap.  In her case it's a 6 year difference between Doll and her husband.  For others, it can vary from the woman being older, I know of a couple where she was 51 and he was 29 at marriage.  Then there is Anna Niclole Smith with about a 63 age difference.  Those are extremes and not norms.  There are numerous celebrity marriage that are out of the norm.  Other factors were more important than age difference.  But still, it's really two people making a choice.

We are not talking about a 40 y.o. man marrying a 17 y.o. girl.  Age difference varies drastically with the ages of the parties involved.  Several years ago there was a survey on another list and it was determined that the average age of the man was 45 and the average age of the woman was 31 in AM/RW marriages.  For men 55+, the average difference was 19 years, and for those 60+, the average difference was 21 years.  I personally know men on this list who have or had relationships with women 20+ years younger.  There is a couple I know in Ukraine where he is 69 and she is 33, and they've been together for more than 8 years.  It was their choice, and not decided by a table of probability and odds on what an age difference should be.

I think after a man has made several trips and met lots of women, he sorta knows the age range of women interested in him, as well as the women who interest him.  But age is only one factor.  It's usally more an issue of lack of physical chemistry and attraction that determines interest on the first meeting.  I've had my share of women who said on their profiles they were looking for a man 10+ years younger that me, but we met and our age difference was not an issue.  Yesterday I received a letter from a woman who is 48.  I would not hestitate to meet her.  In Kharkov there was a woman 52 I tried to meet but she was going to be away from Kharkov until after I left.  But I will tell you based on their photos, they were very attractive, but each could decide I'm not what they are looking for.

Yesterday I finally heard from Natasha.  She thought I had her e-mail ( I didn't) and I got scolded a little for not writing to her since returning home, but the letter ended nicely.  She was supposed to write me so I would have a nice letter from her when I got home.  Anway, she is 35 and apparantly our age difference is OK for her...I'm still cautious.  Then I receive another e-mail from a woman I had a serious relationship with last year inviting me to give us another chance.  She's 41 and if our age difference was an issue, why would she want to resume a relationship that ended 5 months ago?  The woman I visited in Kharkov 4 times is 41 and our age difference was not an issue.  I think I've learned that as far as the age issue, women in their early 40's does not present an age problem.

There are a lot more important things other than age difference to determine if two people are right for each other.  If everyone adhered to reasonable age differences, there wouldn't be marriages between Michael Douglas/Catherine Zeta Jones, Lee majors and his wife..35 years difference, Mary Tyler Moore and her much younger husband, Demi Moore and much younger Aston Kutcher.  I'm not a celebrity and I listed them because they are well known.  There are countless successful marriage of regular people where there is a large age difference...on both sides of the fence.  It's the personal choice and decision of the two people involved...period.  There are statistical probability and odds, but it the two people involved who make the final decision.  I think when a woman is 35+, she's old enough to make her own decision.  CC         

[Ooooops]

If everyone adhered to reasonable age differences, there wouldn't be marriages between Michael Douglas/Catherine Zeta Jones, Lee majors and his wife..35 years difference, Mary Tyler Moore and her much younger husband, Demi Moore and much younger Aston Kutcher. 

I wonder, how much time those people spend together?    What do they do together?   Age is not only about the looks - it's mostly about the mindset and lifestyle... 

[GoodOlBoy]

Several years ago there was a survey on another list and it was determined that the average age of the man was 45 and the average age of the woman was 31 in AM/RW marriages.  For men 55+, the average difference was 19 years, and for those 60+, the average difference was 21 years.  I personally know men on this list who have or had relationships with women 20+ years younger. 

I think it is OK to site substantial age differences on RWD, BUT.....For your statements to be valid/legitimate you would also have to provide proof/evidence that these marriages are fully viable and "successful"(long term)........not just GC relationships.


GOB

[facetrock]

   I will agree with CCowboy that there is a huge difference with a 45 year old marrying a 20 year old than a 65 year old marrying a 40 year old. By the time you reach your fortys you have matured and will most likely not change anymore during your life. By this time you are what you are.

[CCowboy]

I agree.  There's really no way to know if there's smiling faces for the public but unhappy marriages behind closed door.  Just as there is no guarantee that if a person does everything that is with reason, a happy marriage will result.  I was mainly trying to indicate that whomever the people are and whatever the age difference, as well as many other factors, it's for the two people involved who ultimately make the decision.  As was pointed out, meeting online or from a personal ad is a lot different than meeting someone in a more normal setting.  If two people are at a party and catch each other's eyes, I doubt if either are thinking, "I wonder if she/he is within my age parameters"?  Something clicks and they decide to see if there is a mutual interest for something meaningful to develop.    

[Ooooops]

By the time you reach your fortys you have matured and will most likely not change anymore during your life. By this time you are what you are.

May I ask you how old are you now?

[Daveman]

I agree.  There's really no way to know if there's smiling faces for the public but unhappy marriages behind closed door.  Just as there is no guarantee that if a person does everything that is with reason, a happy marriage will result.  I was mainly trying to indicate that whomever the people are and whatever the age difference, as well as many other factors, it's for the two people involved who ultimately make the decision.  As was pointed out, meeting online or from a personal ad is a lot different than meeting someone in a more normal setting.  If two people are at a party and catch each other's eyes, I doubt if either are thinking, "I wonder if she/he is within my age parameters"?  Something clicks and they decide to see if there is a mutual interest for something meaningful to develop.    

Well, I'm sure I'll be the odd man out around here, but in reality, I do think about age in such situations.  Of course, I don't mind a little attention from a younger woman, and certainly don't mind flirting with a nice looker from any age group, but if we are talking seriously put the moves on her, turn on the charm, woo her, seriously try to catch her... nah... I just don't see the potential relationship having enough substance for my personal goals in what I'm looking for.

In my own case, if I seriously chased a young lady, I know that in my own mind I'd be rationalizing away a lot of what is truly important to me just to be with a young hot babe.  

This is not a condemnation of anyone else or their relations or marriages, just speaking for myself.  I just could not have a serious relationship with a young girl -- unless somehow she is really very very different, but I just don't see us being able to hold each other's interest outside the bedroom for very long.

[groovlstk]

If everyone adhered to reasonable age differences, there wouldn't be marriages between Michael Douglas/Catherine Zeta Jones, Lee majors and his wife..35 years difference, Mary Tyler Moore and her much younger husband, Demi Moore and much younger Aston Kutcher.  I'm not a celebrity and I listed them because they are well known.  There are countless successful marriage of regular people where there is a large age difference...on both sides of the fence.  It's the personal choice and decision of the two people involved...period.  There are statistical probability and odds, but it the two people involved who make the final decision.  I think when a woman is 35+, she's old enough to make her own decision.  CC         

IMHO citing celebrities who marry younger women/men is completely irrelevant to discussions of age differences among the members here.

[groovlstk]

   I will agree with CCowboy that there is a huge difference with a 45 year old marrying a 20 year old than a 65 year old marrying a 40 year old. By the time you reach your fortys you have matured and will most likely not change anymore during your life. By this time you are what you are.

Our long departed (as in she left in a huff) RW curmudgeon Elen offered a different take on this, which I also think deserves consideration. In her view, most women over 40 have already found a degree of stability in life. She's likely moved up the ladder professionally, kids are either on their own or independent enough not to require her constant attention - bottom line is she does not need a man to lean on.

[facetrock]

  Thats true in some cases Groov. But I still think most women dont want to end up alone, either here or the FSU. But its a big world with alot of people in it. You will find every kind of woman imaginable.

ooooops  I am 49 but look 21:)))

[GoodOlBoy]

.......but I just don't see us being able to hold each other's interest outside the bedroom for very long.

Daveman, in previous posts I have never heard you "brag" about your "sexual prowess" (satisfying 20 yo's) in the bedroom before !  :evil:

Care to elaborate? 

Details?


GOB

[CCowboy]

Groovlstk,

I agree with you.  Celebrities are in their own world, and usually are in a much different financial position than most.  But they are also people who live life in many ways just like the rest of us.  I also said that there are other examples of us regular people but to site names would have little effect.  

I would like to continue to hear other's opinions on this subject as well as state my own views.  However, it's golfing time so...later.  CC

[Admin]

Not too often, to tell you the truth.   +/- 5 years is the normal mistake.    Not -20 ever.   

Ooooops - I am a little surprised to hear you say that (actually, read you write that ). I have spent a TON of time in Asia, and I am often surprised to learn the ages of office-mates. On more than one occasion I have guessed a more than 10 year difference from their real age. This is especially true in Hong Kong and Singapore, but has also happened in Taipei and Jakarta (actually, Penang).

Knowing that you live there (Asia), it surprises me that you (or your husband) have not experienced something similar.

- Dan

[Ooooops]

ooooops  I am 49 but look 21))

Ain't we all...      I'm almost your age (few years younger), so tell me - are you ready to go dancing, drinking, partying, socializing, chatting, playing, etc  now as you did 20 years ago?      I can honestly say that I'm already slowing down and I'm only 45.    Person can be a very active 60 y.o. but he still is 60 y.o.  with all downfall of that age.