Age Range. What is yours and why?

[Boethius]

     d

[KenC]

I don't disagree that there is no right answer.  I have also worked with a lot of men with jealous wives, so I understand the mindset.  However, my point is you see what you want to see (and I am not trying to be combative).  Unless all the wives were incredibly insecure (which I doubt), it is not likely they i]all[/i] felt threatened.  And, that has nothing to do with feminism.  You mentioned the women were also threatend by your wife's intelligence.  People who are truly intelligent can interact with anyone without making the other feel uncomfortable or intellectually inferior.  If women were truly picking that up (as opposed to this being your perception), it was your wife's social miscue.

Boethius,
Again, I most respectfully disagree.  AW can be a rather smugand shallow bunch with their sense of entitlement very obvious.  A beautiful, young and gregarious woman from Russia, really throws them off their usual game.  When this same RW enjoys discussing world politics or WWII, they (AW) don't quite know how to handle the situation.  They (AW) cannot participate in most subjects deeper than their latest handbag purchase.  It is my experience that most Russians do not relish small talk on inane subjects.  A dynamic woman from Russia does tend to make them (AW) very insecure.
KenC

[mies]

So he continued to be your boyfriend?  
If yes then you two must have used sign language.

good point Mir and Taz ;-) of course he didn't continue being my boyfriend. The point is he not only broke up with me, but he also stopped talking to me (literally). And since we were in the very same university program and were attending all the same classes it was quite stressful. To the extend that I changed my major. My roommate did not even bother to apologize. She told me "but this was a funny photo." She told me she just wanted to tease my (then) boyfriend with the photo and she never told him what was really going on that photo.  
I just don't get the people who are having fun taking photos of awkward situations at parties. What's so funny in it? Maybe makes them feel superior or better, or they like gossips and scandals (each of which makes the gossipers feeling superior or better)
Another moral of this story - guys, especially those who are at the early stages of the process - be careful with the information that you receive from BFFs of your girlfriends and fiances. Those "friends" might just tell some bull*snip* for fun or to tease you.

[Sculpto]

.  A dynamic woman from Russia does tend to make them (AW) very insecure.

That would really depend on the type of AW one associated with.  Perhaps it is just a case of being able to marry someone of a higher level of education and intellect than someone might have been able to attract in the US?  I know tons of AW that are deep, very intelligent and able to discourse on a wide variety of topics.

Maybe JR should change the name of the thread to "age range and marrying someone out of your league"?

[JR]

JR

I thought you wrote somewhere you have a finance?

If true then what is the purpose of corresponding with other women (and children)?

Not a criticism, just curious.

No finace. Haven't even 'met' anyone yet

[aventino68]

Since you are bringing this person to a completely new environment I can see that it would be very difficult if, because of many factors (including age gap) she didn't fit in with your circle of friends. She is in a strange environment and would only have you or her fellow Russians in the area for support.

[Taz]

I'd say one of the main differences between AW and RW/UW with respect on education is that I've encountered a far greater of women educated with degrees in the hard sciences in UA/RU than the US. By that I've seen a lot more RW/UW with math, physics, chem and engineering diplomas than in the US. Heck I've met more women engineers in just one city in the FSU than I have in my entire lifetime in the US even factoring in the extremely few women at the school I went to.

I once read that there were more Russian (FSU) women engineers than the rest of the world had engineers in total. Sort of like how the US has apparently cornered the market on lawyers. Apparently the US has more lawyers than the rest of the world combined. Before anyone asks I can't remember where I read the stat on Engineers but based on my anecdotal evidence I am inclined to believe it is true.

[kievstar]

Taz, I read a book called the world is flat and talks about the advantage Russia, India, and China have as producing the most engineer graduates each year.  USA and German used to lead the World. 

Regarding the women engineers Russia does produce the most.  USA does have the highest % of lawyers and 2nd place is not even close.  In 2008 Ukraine beat out India for highest growth rate in the IT industry.

People in Ukraine have told me this and I have no idea if true but seems to be.  The higher educated jobs in communist times were done by women.  Men did the jobs requiring less education.  I wonder if this is why the higher educated jobs in Ukraine today do not pay good salaries. 

[Boethius]

They (AW) cannot participate in most subjects deeper than their latest handbag purchase.  It is my experience that most Russians do not relish small talk on inane subjects.  A dynamic woman from Russia does tend to make them (AW) very insecure.
KenC

Just to clarify, Ken, I understood that.  I also don't discount jealousy may very well have been at play.  But, my point was that it was your wife's social ineptitude, not the lack of intelligence of the AW, which was the problem.  A person with true intelligence can make that social small talk on inane subjects, and not make the people around them feel uncomfortable or intellectually inferior.  You have to speak to the level you are confronted with.  It is all part of a social dynamic.  It's even recognized now as a factor in success (EQ).  That doesn't mean she has to like it, but she should at least put in the effort.  I'm not trying to belabour the point - just trying to ensure what I intended to say is clear.  

I also agree with your observation that most people from the FSU are very direct (Serbs, from my experience, are like this too), to the point of being what most Westerners perceive as rude.  That is a very Soviet, as opposed to Russian trait.  

The higher educated jobs in communist times were done by women.  Men did the jobs requiring less education.

That's not true.  Women dominated in professions such as medicine and education, but men dominated the technical fields in Soviet times.  A lot of times, what a Soviet would describe to me as an "engineer" would be a technician in the West.  Furthermore, even though women dominated in medicine, all the major advances of the USSR made in the medical field (geriatrics, opthamology, orthopaedics-the USSR made world recognized advances in these fields) were made by men.  


 

[SANDRO43]

I'd say one of the main differences between AW and RW/UW with respect on education is that I've encountered a far greater of women educated with degrees in the hard sciences in UA/RU than the US. By that I've seen a lot more RW/UW with math, physics, chem and engineering diplomas than in the US.

But not all necessarily pursue careers based on their degrees. For instance, this Mining Engineer (http://www.natashastefanenko.it) came to Italy and became an appreciated TV/film actress .

[KenC]

Just to clarify, Ken, I understood that.  I also don't discount jealousy may very well have been at play.  But, my point was that it was your wife's social ineptitude, not the lack of intelligence of the AW, which was the problem.  A person with true intelligence can make that social small talk on inane subjects, and not make the people around them feel uncomfortable or intellectually inferior.  You have to speak to the level you are confronted with.  It is all part of a social dynamic.  It's even recognized now as a factor in success (EQ).  That doesn't mean she has to like it, but she should at least put in the effort.  I'm not trying to belabour the point - just trying to ensure what I intended to say is clear.  

I also agree with your observation that most people from the FSU are very direct (Serbs, from my experience, are like this too), to the point of being what most Westerners perceive as rude.  That is a very Soviet, as opposed to Russian trait.  

Boethius,
You continue to characterize the conflict I explained as a social deficiency on Lena's part instead of a cultural difference as I see it.  Being drawn toward deeper more meaningful conversations instead of chit chatting about shallow and inane subjects does not show a shortcoming, but a preference.  Your suggestion that Lena should have changed her standards to conform with the group of AW is not something I would have ever asked or expected from her.  It is a difference that I not only endorsed but enjoyed.

My original post in this thread was an attempt to answer the question about the possible social difficulties regarding marriage to a younger RW.  I pointed out the differences in a social setting.  I would have never asked or expected Lena to change her personality to conform with the AW "standards."  Viva le difference.  If I was attracted to AW, I never would have been so attracted to Lena.  Being different does however come with the chance of being ostracized from the group.  Over time, I understood this, accepted it and would had never asked Lena to be something she is not.
KenC

[elliott]

I am certain this has been hashed out before (no, I didn’t do a search, far too many hi-jacked threads which lead nowhere)

Add another casualty.  Is that Taps that I hear?

[ECOCKS]

That's not true.  Women dominated in professions such as medicine and education, but men dominated the technical fields in Soviet times.  A lot of times, what a Soviet would describe to me as an "engineer" would be a technician in the West.  Furthermore, even though women dominated in medicine, all the major advances of the USSR made in the medical field (geriatrics, opthamology, orthopaedics-the USSR made world recognized advances in these fields) were made by men.  
 

I started to comment on this yesterday but did not get back to it.

I met quite a few engineers (mostly women but a couple of guys also) who were really mechanics, electricians and HVAC technicians. The general level of construction technology in the FSU should give you a strong indication of the state of the art of "engineering" in the FSU, back during the time period when the SU was boasting of so many engineers. Even today their construction standards are weak on areas such as load-bearing walls, electrical planning , plumbing, concrete formula and ducting. I have talked with architects and construction wirkers who regard vaulted ceilings and atriums as "impossible" given their building materials and construction standards.

[I/O]

KenC: I think you are being a little defensive. I suspect I am in the midst of a somewhat similar situation as you were 7 or 8 years ago. Mrs I/O fits in fairly well but there is certainly the situations where she doesn't and frankly 50% of the time it is her own fault. I agree, there is the times when the "threat" factor comes into play among the reactions of local women but Boethius has something of a point when he says many of the locals are just not interested in figuring the newcomer out and it is up to the newcomer to make the running. Much will depend on the direction they choose to take.

Small talk, I dunno, RW can yap their heads off and I'm yet to be convinced it is all "big talk".

I/O

[KenC]

I/O,
Perhaps you are right, but I am less inclined to assign "fault" than I am to identify the differences.  I always enjoyed the differences and thought that forcing conformity was wrong.
KenC

[Blues Fairy]

Being drawn toward deeper more meaningful conversations instead of chit chatting about shallow and inane subjects does not show a shortcoming, but a preference.  Your suggestion that Lena should have changed her standards to conform with the group of AW is not something I would have ever asked or expected from her.  

I agree that all of us have the right to preferences in conversation subjects.  But if we enforce this right too vigorously and altogether ignore/dismiss subjects interesting to other people, we would be foolish to expect them to like us and actively seek our company.  

[kievstar]

Hi Boethius, medicine is a higher education than engineering.   So I guess you agree with me that the number of women compared to men dominated the medicine field in FSU.    

Ecocks, your correct on building construction.  When I used to buy / sell to flip apartments in Ukraine majority of buildings my inspector told me to stay away as parts of the building may fall down under reconstruction.  This is going to be a huge problem the next 20 years in Ukraine.  The buildings built right after World War II have reached there maximum age.  

  

[Misha]

I agree that all of us have the right to preferences in conversation subjects.  But if we enforce this right too vigorously and altogether ignore/dismiss subjects interesting to other people, we would be foolish to expect them to like us and actively seek our company.  

Well said. Reminds me of a horrible night I once spent. My wife has an acquaintance from Bulgaria who is married to a Canadian. They have an acquaintance who is a divorced RW and the Bulgarian woman wanted to play matchmaker and also invited over a single Canadian man. During the conversation, the RW started going on and on about the contemporary Russian equivalent to Nostradamus and topics about good and evil. She was going on and on even though everybody was getting visibly uncomfortable. I tried to change the topic a few times, but she kept bringing it back. As a result, the matchmaking failed miserably, and I would certainly not want to invite her to any dinner parties that I would host 

[Sculpto]

Boethius makes an excellent point.  I have personally found myself guilty of this shortcoming in the past and on occasion still get busted for it.  Anyone notice? 

What I have learned, sometimes rather painfully, is bluntness is often rightly perceived as rudeness.  The inability to listen to others and take interest in their conversation, no matter how shallow it appears to be, is a lack of culture.  When I forced myself to become more attentive to things I considered boring I later found that the very same boring people who talked about stupid things like television trivia for example, when engaged in private conversation often showed what I thought to be a surprising level of depth. 

The US is an INCLUSIVE society for the most part.  People tend to go out of their way to make people feel included.  Sometimes in groups things are lightened up so that no one feels left out.

Everyone is entitled to their preferences but generally speaking it would seem that many people from the FSU could "go with the flow" a bit more. 

[Gator]

 The buildings built right after World War II have reached there maximum age.  

My Moscow wife has told me repeatedly that the best buildings were constructed during the Stalin years.  And the "best of the best" were those constructed by German Nazi prisoners, many of whom were not allowed to return home after the war and were "retained" indefinitely to rebuild the Soviet Union. 

Khrushchev conducted a mass construction program in the 1950s and 60s and those buildings are not good.  Many in Moscow have already been razed.

[groovlstk]

Just to clarify, Ken, I understood that.  I also don't discount jealousy may very well have been at play.  But, my point was that it was your wife's social ineptitude, not the lack of intelligence of the AW, which was the problem.  A person with true intelligence can make that social small talk on inane subjects, and not make the people around them feel uncomfortable or intellectually inferior.  You have to speak to the level you are confronted with.  It is all part of a social dynamic.  It's even recognized now as a factor in success (EQ).  That doesn't mean she has to like it, but she should at least put in the effort.  I'm not trying to belabour the point - just trying to ensure what I intended to say is clear.

FWIW, like KenC's wife, my wife was also given a rather chilly reception by my female friends. No one was overtly rude to her but none went out of their way to welcome her and after the introductions and small talk they pretty much ignored her. My wife reached out via email to a few of the women but it was obvious to her that they weren't really interested in getting to know her. Was it jealousy? I don't know, but that seems the most obvious reason. It certainly wasn't because my wife is socially inept - we have lots of Russian friends and she's taken to screening calls because they have a habit of dropping by unannounced or phoning when they're in the neighborhood and in need of a cup of tea. The week before last we had surprise visitors every night of the week 

We mostly hang out with Russian couples and I'm 100% comfortable with that, they  seem a lot less judgmental and are a heckuva lot more fun to be with than our American friends. There are plenty of men here who try to steer their wives away from befriending Russians living in the US, but I'm not one of them. (Kind of funny how they characterize groups of Russians as pit vipers and homewreckers while blissfully ignoring the fact that their wives are products of this same culture that they have so little good to say about.  )

[ECOCKS]

Yeah the Stalinkas (bldgs from Stalin's era) are considered pretty sturdy although they suffer from problems with the mortar and concrete. The Kruschevkas (bldgs from Kruschev's era) are still standing but the Ukraine government knows they have to get rid of them before they begin to collapse (some already have) or leak too badly to be inhabited.

Take a good close look at those circa 70's and 80's high-rises though, it'll give you pause when you notice the crumbling concrete edges and chunks missing from the balconies. The elevators in those buildings are also subject to frequent breakdowns due to lack of maintenance, overloading and generally poor construction as well.

[Gator]

Mrs I/O fits in fairly well but there is certainly the situations where she doesn't and frankly 50% of the time it is her own fault.

My sentiment as well.

I agree, there is the times when the "threat" factor comes into play among the reactions of local women but Boethius has something of a point when he says many of the locals are just not interested in figuring the newcomer out and it is up to the newcomer to make the running. Much will depend on the direction they choose to take.

Au contraire, mon frère, several AW in my age group have reached out to Sabina, asking her questions about life in Russia and how she is adjusting.  A couple of the younger AW (one her age, one 8 years older) have taken her under their wing to show her the best hairdressers, best shops, etc.  Yet, with the exception of an older woman originally from Cuba, and another older woman from her photo class, she has shown little inclination to become closer friends even though the opportunity is there.  She says simply that she finds them boring or they are different.  I must concede her that point as I can not become close friends with dullards.

That could be the case as she says the same about many of the RW she meets locally.

I agree that all of us have the right to preferences in conversation subjects.  But if we enforce this right too vigorously and altogether ignore/dismiss subjects interesting to other people, we would be foolish to expect them to like us and actively seek our company. 

BF,  I agree, and such would be important to advance one's adjustment.  I thought I knew her well from having known her for 6 years prior to marriage.  This behavior has surprised me.  I recognize that she has been here only one year and is still considering her options.  And she does not lack for friends as we have frequent RW visitors.

[GQBlues]

Au contraire, mon frère, several AW in my age group have reached out to Sabina, asking her questions about life in Russia and how she is adjusting.  A couple of the younger AW (one her age, one 8 years older) have taken her under their wing to show her the best hairdressers, best shops, etc.

Same experience with me. I was lucky enough to befriend a whole lot of AWs who celebrated and supported my relationship with my wife. They've even gone as far as inviting her to do different things with them as a group, and individually, to help in her acclimation. My wife liked them especially one who eventually moved to Manhattan after getting married.

The women I work with absolutely adore Nat, and we had on occasion gone out to dinners and social gatherings with them.

We also enjoy doing things with her Russian speaking friends. Picnics, camping, skiing, golf, clubbing, etc...We had a few people over for the Lakers' vistory last night at our home. It consisted of friends from both our circle...everyone seem to get along just fine.

My wife can be prone to be judgmental about people but the longer she got around people, the more she abandoned that trait, and the more her social circle grew.

[JR]

Jolly, whatever happened to your statement in the other topic that you dont mind a woman with a young child? Just curious

Aloe, there is no conflict with what I wrote. I do not mind it but I am not looking for it.