College Educated v. Non College Educated Women

[OlgaH]

Many, but not all, masters degrees in USA require a dissertation or thesis; and coursework and thesis in such a program are usually completed in one and a half to two years.  It seems that Kandidat is somewhere between masters degree and PhD.

Ph.D. candidacy
Ph.D. Candidate is not to be confused with Candidate of Sciences, an academic degree that has been used in certain countries in place of PhD.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Philosophy

Предложенная академиком Евреиновым Э.В. двухуровневая система подготовки высших научных кадров в концепции ГСО (докторский уровень и гранд докторский уровень) наиболее полно соответствует системе аттестации, принятой в странах бывшего СССР. В рамках этой концепции в настоящее время эффективно используется следующая схема нострификации (приравнивания):

Russian кандидат наук (Candidate of Sciences) =  доктор философии (Ph.D.)
   
Russian доктор наук (Doctor of Science) = гранд доктор философии (Grand Ph.D.)

http://www.wudses.org/ru/edu_eu/ussr/

[Blues Fairy]

Grand Ph.D.

 

[OlgaH]

If you look through the profiles of the Directors GES almost all of them have the degree of Grand Doctor of Philosophy (the highest in the world).    

http://www.widu.us/directors_ges

[ECOCKS]

Looks like we need a third column for the Euro equivalent of putting this Grand Doctor into a positional setting.

I see where the problem is for Universities and, to a lesser extent, employers, who are trying to equate these degrees to performance standards and competencies.

Interesting.

[SANDRO43]

Russian доктор наук (Doctor of Science) = гранд доктор философии (Grand Ph.D.)

Still room at the top for more:

- Arch Doctor
- King Doctor
- Pontifex Doctor

and the ultimate in excellence: GOD Doctor .

Top-title crowding is not restricted to academia: 1- to 5-star Army/Air Force Generals and Marshals, Navy Commodores and 5 flavours of Admiral, etc.

[OlgaH]

and the ultimate in excellence: GOD Doctor .

right before going up to Heaven 

[SANDRO43]

right before going up to Heaven  

He'll have to push to find some elbow room up there, it's quite crowded already :

The authors of The Celestial Hierarchy and the Summa Theologica drew on passages from the New Testament, specifically Ephesians 1:21 and Colossians 1:16 (considered by modern scholars to be very tentative and ambiguous sources in relation to the construction of such a schema), in an attempt to reveal a schema of three Hierarchies, Spheres or Triads of angels, with each Hierarchy containing three Orders or Choirs.

From the comparative study of the Old Testament and New Testament passages, including their etymology and semantics, the above mentioned theological works (which contain variations), and esoteric Christian teachings, the descending order of rank can be inferred as following:
 
First Sphere (Old Testament sources)
Seraphim
Cherubim
Thrones (Gr. thronos) (New Testament sources)

Second Sphere (New Testament sources)
Dominions (Gr. Kyriotetes)
Virtues (Gr. Dynamais)
Powers (Gr. Exusiai)

Third Sphere
Principalities (Gr. Archai)
Archangels - Archangeloi
Angels - Angeloi

The Choirs in the second and third spheres, of the present hierarchical list, appear to be also united in pairs. The existence of these pairs of Orders is inferred through their etymological proximity and the apparent affinity in the description of their work-activity (1 Peter 3:22):
Thrones and Dominions (Might, Dynamais);
Principalities and Powers (Powers, Exusiai; Ephesians 6:12);
Archangels and Angels (Angels, Angeloi).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angels_in_Christianity

[Hub]

Doctor Nauk in Russia equivalents professor in the USA. Usually in Russia a person that gets doctor nauk degree gets a professor position. Getting a doctor nauk requires monography printed, very serious scientific results, and much more publications then Phd.

All the professors from Russia that came to the USA during 90th i know got professor positions in American universities as well.

OK, I think I am starting to get a clearer picture here.  Thanks to Lily, NJ, Ecocks and Olga for comments.

Here is what I think.  First, there is some confusion between academic degrees and academic positions.

In USA the degrees are Associate, Bachelor, Masters, Doctorate.
Positions are Lecturer, Instructor, Assistant Professor, Associate Professor, Professor

Now it seems there is some relationship between Candidate in SU and PhD in USA, although I would still contend the PhD is higher level.

Then, what happens is that after PhD or Candidate is achieved (and if the person follows an academic career), they must continue to research and publish articles in refereed journals.

In the USA, such publications, along with teaching proficiency are judged to cause promotion through the ranks to the ultimate of Professor (also referred to as Full Professor).  Many academics never make it to full professor.

In the SU it seems that following a similar path, the person is at some point is awarded a Doctor of Science degree.
And not many make it to this degree.

So there seems to be some mixing of degrees and academic positions in the SU system.  In SU ultimate is achieving Doctor of Science (and perhaps an academic position of Professor also) whereas in USA, the equivalent of achieving Doctor of Science would be achieving Full Professor.

Another distinction might be that in SU you could achieve Doctor of Science without working in a teaching position (i.e. you might work for something like the equivalent of NASA, FDA, etc.) whereas in USA you will only achieve the status of Full Professor in a University teaching position.

[SANDRO43]

So there seems to be some mixing of degrees and academic positions in the SU system.

I agree with that in general. People often confuse titles with positions (my old argument about form vs. content ).

The two do not necessarily coincide. Before laurea breve ('short' degree, i.e. something similar to a Bachelor's degree) and Dottorato di ricerca (i.e. a PhD) were introduced here some years ago, all our university courses were 4-5 years long, and graduates were simply referred to as Doctors, except for those from faculties like Engineering (Ingegnere), Architecture (Architect), Jurisprudence (Avvocato, even though that title was really reserved to those passing their Bar examination). In my time, IBM had a policy of hiring mostly Ingegneri, so after a while I stopped correcting my new customers from addressing me as Ingegner Floriani, I could see they were disappointed with 'less' : my own formal title is Dottore in lingue e letterature straniere, even though I have no training in medicine at all . Where I to translate that into English, it'd be more or less MA.

This is a result both of class distinction  (once only youngsters from wealthy families could afford to attend University) and the fact that a laurea (degree) has valore legale here, which means that when the Government holds a concorso per titoli ed esami for jobs in the public administration, candidates with a formal 'titolo' are awarded extra points (due to their titles) in the final scoring, and hence their possibility of securing the job is higher.

Therefore, depending on local customs and traditions, similarly sounding equivalents may be somewhat misleading. Parking attendands in Rome, the seat of Italian Government and Ministries, will address ANYBODY with a respectful 3rd person singular:

"Venga avanti, Dottò!"

"Come a little forward, Doctor", just to be on the safe side .

[OlgaH]

Another distinction might be that in SU you could achieve Doctor of Science without working in a teaching position (i.e. you might work for something like the equivalent of NASA, FDA, etc.) whereas in USA you will only achieve the status of Full Professor in a University teaching position.

Lily already mentioned Aspirantura (post graduate course). Aspirantura is a specialized department of a higher education institution or a research institute that prepares the applicants for Candidate. Studying at Aspirantura takes 3 years. To enter Aspirantura an applicant should pass the following Candidate exams: specialization, foreign language, philosophy.  During studying in Aspirantura (excepting Aspiranturas of research institutes)  aspirants must undergo teaching practice usually 100 Academic hours and it includes lecturing and methodological works.

After Aspirantura a Candidate may apply for Doctor Nauk and become a Doctornat (doctoral candidate) in Doctornatura, a specialized department of a higher education institution or a research institute that prepares teachers and research workers of the highest level of proficiency - Doctor Nauk   Studying in Doctornatura takes another 3 years  ( but no more than 3 years). Doctornatura is full-time tuition. During the Doctornatura the doctorants are freed from their working position at their higher education institutions or research institutes according to RF Labor Code, the studying time at Doctornatura is counted into general  length of teaching and researching experience.

[JR]

My experience with the subject matter:

My ex had two Master's Degrees. She wanted to work in her field but found it difficult at best and impossible at worst. It was devastating to her. It caused her depression and anger towards me. It was a major source of continual grief. This is not conjecture on my part, it is what I lived.

Now to throw some conjecture in with the experience: an educated woman went through all that schooling for a reason, most likely not to sit at home. If she cannot fullfill that need to succeed in her field she most likely will suffer some negative effects. Those negative effects will reside and permeate within your marriage. It will have a domino effect in that it will touch most every other aspect of your relationship.

I think most men, and women fail to explore this subject adequately (if at all) before getting married and suffer because of it. I don't know that a less or uneducated woman would be a better choice but recognizing the potential problems and addressing in advance will only strengthen your chances for success.

Good post Ambach

[OlgaH]

I agree with that in general. People often confuse titles with positions (my old argument about form vs. content ).

In Russia we have degrees and titles.

Candidat Nauk and Doctor Nauk are degrees. Docent and professor are titles and positions at a higher education institution.

For example

MD obstetrician-gynecologist, Candidate of Medical sciences, Docent of Gynecology and Obstetrics department of The Russian University of National Friendship Calina Tatiana Vladimirovna

http://www.smdoctors.ru/docshow.php?id=35

[kievstar]

Hi Ambach you quoted me wrong I posted the below about loser men - I never said 90% of RWD men are losers.

Hi Ambach, it does not surprise me that many RW divorce, K-1's cancelled, and RW on EM in USA looking for men.  IMO 90% or more of AM who marry RW are out of their league or loser men.  I also think 90% of AM who marry AW are loser men.  This gets into why it is easy to marry a RW and have a longterm marriage.  The quality of RW to quality foreign men visiting is great.  It is in the man's advantage.

I think men are losers if they cheat on their girlfirend or wife, beat children, molest children,  lie often, heavy drug user, heavy drinker, jail sentence greater than 1 month, beat women, have sex with other men, date several women at the same time and lie about it.

[Kuna]

Hi Ambach you quoted me wrong I posted the below about loser men - I never said 90% of RWD men are losers.

Hi Ambach, it does not surprise me that many RW divorce, K-1's cancelled, and RW on EM in USA looking for men.  IMO 90% or more of AM who marry RW are out of their league or loser men.  I also think 90% of AM who marry AW are loser men.  This gets into why it is easy to marry a RW and have a longterm marriage.  The quality of RW to quality foreign men visiting is great.  It is in the man's advantage.

I think men are losers if they cheat on their girlfirend or wife, beat children, molest children,  lie often, heavy drug user, heavy drinker, jail sentence greater than 1 month, beat women, have sex with other men, date several women at the same time and lie about it.

Seems to me that you may think ambach is a loser - on at least a few counts???

[kievstar]

I do not know Ambach so can not judge him. 

[Aloe]

LOL I know.. and I will only say that my lady has all the qualities that would make any straight man.. umm... drool..  There are a few guys here who have seen her photos and I am quite sure they would confirm my assessment..  but.. its her crazy aggressive intelligence that makes me want to be around her more than anything else because she is interesting to talk to and has great jokes and is not afraid to challenge me on my more bizarre ideas nor does she get too bent if I challenge hers..(most of the time)  If she was the same appearance but a dumbass.. I wouldn't even give her the time of the day.  Trust me on that one.. back in 96 when my friends and I spent a crazy summer running an underground nightclub I had opportunities with a lot of exceptionally beautiful women, most of whom were idiots.. and I passed them up.  There is one that still chases me to this day.. you have probably seen her on TV.. she does the commercials for the ladies razors.. drop dead gorgeous.. every dude in that club was after her and she was liberal with her assets.. I ignored her and turned her down when she asked me to spend an evening in her bed watching movies.. I run into her nowadays on occasion.. she still follows me around like a puppy dog.  Probably I am the only guy that never came on to her and turned her down when she offered.  She still offers, almost every time I see her.  But she is just straight up stupid.. gorgeous but a moron.  If I had done her.. given the vibe I already had established.. I never would have gotten rid of her and she annoyed me to death with her squeaky voice and dumb laugh and lack of perception on anything intelligent.. but man what assets..  She is a great "chick magnet" I always get a lot more attention from other women when she is around because she will hang on my arm like i am her boyfriend and then once she isn't on my arm.. women approach.. never happens when I am alone at an event..  In fact, that is another encounter that should be real interesting once "A" is here..

I forget the name of the film.. it was a french Canadian flick as I remember.. the male antagonist who is a married professor decides to go to a massage parlor and discovers his masseuse is his star student who only works there to pay for her Uni... when it is time to offer the "extras" she asks him if he prefers "manual" or a type of service that would prevent her from talking.. he chooses manual service and begs her to keep talking..

if you had slept with her, she would have lost any interest in you. Why else do you think she hangs on you, cuz you are one of the few she couldnt get wrapped around her finger, but as soon as she had it, she would move on immediately, IMO

[Lily]

Then, what happens is that after PhD or Candidate is achieved (and if the person follows an academic career), they must continue to research and publish articles in refereed journals.

 

No must, they don't have to. Once a Kandidat, for ever Kandidat unless you make a number of considerable efforts to make it to a Doktor. I have not heard of an instance where a person was deprived of his earned academic degree due to zero subsequent research.

 In the USA, such publications, along with teaching proficiency are judged to cause promotion through the ranks to the ultimate of Professor (also referred to as Full Professor).  Many academics never make it to full professor.
 

There is no things like Full Professor in the FSU. A Professor is never a 'partial' one.

I hope the distinction between academic degrees and teaching titles is clear, nevertheless.

[Aloe]

I think it would be good to clarify what is meant here by college. Sort of professional school may be?
I have heard that there are colleges now in Russia, but not sure on what level they stand.

A Russian first has to receive a mandatory general education that leads to a 'school leaving certificate', or Abitur in German. It lasts about 10 years. This is called in Russian word-by-word 'middle education'. However, if a young person choses to enter a certain profession, often the one that does not requires a university degree, he or she leaves the school after the 8th grade in order to enter in a technical school (technikum in Russian) for about 3 years. After that he or she gets an Abitur with which he or she can apply for an university. In Russian it is called 'middle special, or middle professional education'. If a person of middle education graduates from an University, than he gets a higher education.

Of course there are a number of new educational patterns in Russia now. One may have a bachelor degree now. There are also some institution called colleges.

You can go to technicum after 9th grade, not 8th. I think it was 8th during soviet times, but now its 9th because they canceled 4th grade, everyone goes to 5th grade after completing 3rd grade. Hence you can only leave school after 9th grade, not 8th.
Also Russia joined Bologna process in 2003, all the countries that are participating in the process (which is most of europe) agreed to standardize academic degrees, so russian degrees will soon be recognized in europe without any evaluation, when Russia has fulfilled all the requirements (they are already reforming the system by creating bachelors and masters degrees for 4 and 6 years of study, etc)

[Misha]

There is no things like Full Professor in the FSU. A Professor is never a 'partial' one.

No, but you can teach at a Russian university and be a "доцент." As I noted, the progress is a bit different, but you end up at the same place: both the Western and Russian academic will strive to become professors . Some will achieve and some won't. Simply the route you take is a bit different. In North America the term full professor is used to simply specify that someone is not an assistant or associate professor, but all three will use the term professor in public if asked what they do for a living (i.e. they might say "I am a physics professor" in stead of saying "I am an associate professor of physics."

[SANDRO43]

In North America the term full professor is used to simply specify that someone is not an assistant or associate professor

IINM, Professors and Associate Professors have tenure (lifetime employment contracts), while Assistants do not.

[acrzybear]

Perhaps I'm just showing my ignorance, but if one is going to school for so many years how do they survive? I know grants and such are available but isn't it idiocy to run up a huge pile of debt without any type of guarantee of employment? I'm not talking about the medical, engineering or similar fields but fields like philosophy, history etc..    

[Misha]

IINM, Professors and Associate Professors have tenure (lifetime employment contracts), while Assistants do not.

Not always. In some universities, promotion to associate and tenure are separate, while at others you both apply from tenure and associate at the same time.

[NJ]

Perhaps I'm just showing my ignorance, but if one is going to school for so many years hows do they survive? I know grants and such are available but isn't run still running up a huge pile of debt without any type of guarantee of employment? I'm not talking about the medical, engineering or similar fields but fields like philosophy, history etc..

In Russia education is often free (universuties and aspiranturas (Phd study)). Plus people studying to get Phd very often work in universtys as assistants (lead seminars and practical lessons after lecturer). And as a study in aspirantura does not take very much time to be in a university many have part-time jobs or even full-time jobs.

[kievstar]

Not sure if anybody works in profession of notarize of documents in Ukraine.  Very different than USA and a lot of schooling to be one.  Very good business if you are one since Ukraine loves documents.  But to pass the notarize test you currently have to pay more than 8,000 usd as a bribe.  If you do not pay in advance, you fail the test but you can always pay the bribe later and pass. 

My wife had to pay some money to pass her exam for business school this past month since they found out she married an American. My wife loves school which is the opposite of me. 

Not to get off topic but teachers on average make more than 400% of their pay on bribes in Ukraine. 

[OlgaH]

Not sure if anybody works in profession of notarize of documents in Ukraine.  Very different than USA and a lot of schooling to be one.  

My wife had to pay some money to pass her exam for business school this past month since they found out she married an American. My wife loves school which is the opposite of me.

First, a person has to have a Diploma of Higher education in jurisprudence, second he/she has to undergo a practical notary training (not less than 6 months) and third to pass a qualifying exam (that is organized and conducted by Board of experts at the Ministry of Justice of Ukraine) for obtaining the Notary license.  

According to the Ukraine law about a practical notary training a person who is applying for the practical notary training has to have a specialist degree or master degree in Law and the length of experience in Law not less than three years.