Ladies, are you receiving better healthcare in the United States?

[SANDRO43]

Yeah, let's start setting values on human lives based on their usefulness for the society.

I hope that's in jest  ?

[OlgaH]

Just do a little search on international press... you will see how americans are making fool of themselves with these "socialist", "russia", "hitler & co"
propaganda.
It seems to me you have reach a new low...

   sad but so obvious

[pitbull]

All senior town hall participants I've seen are actually protesting against expansion of government programs because they are freaked about further rationing and reduction of treatment at the end of life.  

Oh, don't worry about the venerable senior citizens. They are very politically active, and with the aging babyboomers, will very soon constitute a very considerable part of the American society. They'll definitely make sure there is no "rationing and reduction of treatment" for them. Well, at least for a while, until the country is bankrupt.

Children, on the other hand, don't vote.
 
And by the way, since the lion share of healthcare dollars goes towards the treatment at the end of life, with millions of babyboomers added to Medicare, and no reduction of treatment, someone will have to pay for all this, right?

I assume you won't protest when your taxes are hiked 5-10-15% and more to make sure senior citizens receive their unrationed care? Oh, and on top pay rapidly rising healthcare insurance premiums for your family?

[Blues Fairy]

I hope that's in jest  ?

Sandro, do you not recognize sarcasm?  Time to reconsider your value for the RWD society.  :evil:

I assume you won't protest when your taxes are hiked 5-10-15% and more to make sure senior citizens receive their unrationed care? Oh, and on top pay rapidly rising healthcare insurance premiums for your family?

I would actually prefer that those senior citizens not lose their investments under faltering economy (because it's so burdened by taxes and gov't programs) and take care of their own health care and retirement like responsible citizens of a free country.  I certainly plan to do so unless people like you keep voting for those who work to turn this country into a socialist nightmare.

[pitbull]

I would actually prefer that those senior citizens not lose their investments under faltering economy (because it's so burdened by taxes and gov't programs) and take care of their own health care and retirement like responsible citizens of a free country.  I certainly plan to do so unless people like you keep voting for those who work to turn this country into a socialist nightmare.

I think you don't realize the cost of healthcare towards the end of life if you seriously believe you'll be able to pay for it from your own savings and investments. Unless of course you have some talents and skills (which I highly doubt  ) that will allow you to make millions in the next 40-odd years

[Blues Fairy]

I think you don't realize the cost of healthcare towards the end of life if you seriously believe you'll be able to pay for it from your own savings and investments. Unless of course you have some talents and skills (which I highly doubt  ) that will allow you to make millions in the next 40-odd years

Wow, you seem to know more about me than even I do.

You really are a pitbull.

[GQBlues]

I assume you won't protest when your taxes are hiked 5-10-15% and more to make sure senior citizens receive their unrationed care? Oh, and on top pay rapidly rising healthcare insurance premiums for your family?

Ironic. IF costs and social usefulness were the driving force to the end of life mandate, there's a much bigger elephant in the room. If we can end all social and welfare programs, I would bet there'll much more monies left for the senior members of our society to enjoy their last days in this nation.

Persons between the ages of 20-64 who had been a lifelong social leech is a far greater burden to society than those over 65. But I'm certain if they were all euthanized, who else would Obama count on for his second term?

[pitbull]

 I certainly plan to do so unless people like you keep voting for those who work to turn this country into a socialist nightmare.

Wow, you seem to know things about me that I am not aware of. Does this make you a pitbull too 

[Blues Fairy]

Wow, you seem to know things about me that I am not aware of.

Perhaps you are really not aware of what the things you say make you sound like.

[pitbull]

Perhaps you are really not aware of what the things you say make you sound like.

I cannot be responsible for other people's perception when its clouded by ignorance 

[OlgaH]

Ironic. IF costs and social usefulness were the driving force to the end of life mandate, there's a much bigger elephant in the room.

In the House’s proposed health care bill I don't see ant driving force to the end of life. (and again I agree with the previous post by docetae) What I see in the Bill is a help to some seniors who would prefer to end their life than to exist on a feeding tube.

If we can end all social and welfare programs, I would bet there'll much more monies left for the senior members of our society to enjoy their last days in this nation.
 

Unfortunately not all seniors enjoy their last days... some of them spend their last days in the agonizing pain and/or in coma...

So, offering to end all social and welfare programs what is your offer regarding people with disabilities that includes also mental disabilities? According to statistic 2005 "26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder. ... approximate number of people in the United States suffering from schizophrenia is over 2.2 million people, approximately 3.2 million American adults ages 18 to 54 (NIMH) - estimated 4.9% adults (USSG) suffering from agoraphobia".    

[Blues Fairy]

I cannot be responsible for other people's perception when its clouded by ignorance 

Despite my being clouded by my complete and utter ignorance, I perceive that you are in favor of government rationing and reduction of benefits for the elderly in favor of the younger population, because "it makes more sense for the society".  You also support Singer's methods of calculating life values based on the amount of quality years people are likely to spend.

Please enlighten me how this is different from the eugenics doctrines of the early and mid-20th century.

And please refrain from further insults such as quoted above.

[Misha]

I perceive that you are in favor of government rationing and reduction of benefits for the elderly in favor of the younger population, because "it makes more sense for the society".

How is that any worse than rationing by insurance companies for the sake of profit?

[pitbull]

Despite my being clouded by my complete and utter ignorance, I perceive that you are in favor of government rationing and reduction of benefits for the elderly in favor of the younger population, because "it makes more sense for the society".  You also support Singer's methods of calculating life values based on the amount of quality years people are likely to spend.

Please enlighten me how this is different from the eugenics doctrines of the early and mid-20th century.

And please refrain from further insults such as quoted above.

I am sorry you took this as a personal insult, it wasn't. And please refrain from generalizations as "people like you" when referring to my posts.

As to my position, I stated it clearly in my previous posts. Please reread.

In short, I, like BC, believe "that medical care of equal quality should be afforded to all regardless of their background, deeds good or bad, income, or employment status and AGE".

However, with so much pressure on the increasingly scarce resources, the statement above should sound as follows: "Every American will have a right to a good standard of health care, but no one will have a right to unrationed (read-unlimited) health care. Those who opt for unrationed health care will know exactly how much it costs them. This pertains to both young and old. Quality-adjusted life-year is the most logical and widely used standard for rationing healthcare.

As to the difference with the eugenics doctrines, I do hope you as a smart woman will not disappoint me and see the difference.

[Blues Fairy]

How is that any worse than rationing by insurance companies for the sake of profit?

Because none of the insurance companies will ever amass as much power and money as a government can.  It's simply a bad, bad idea to concentrate such colossal resources and decision-making power in the hands of the people who are 1) not legally accountable (it's in the bill); 2) not subject to free-market competition; 3) able to mandate things that affect the entire population. 

[pitbull]

How is that any worse than rationing by insurance companies for the sake of profit?

Misha,

I think it is worse because it is a "socialist" type of rationing. Insurance companies conduct "for profit" based rationing, which is purely capitalist, which makes it so much better.  

BTW, if senior citizens didn't have government-run and subsidized medicare and were left with the necessity to buy health insurance from private H.I. companies, guess what would have happened to them... Right, they would be "rationed out" of health care, as totally unprofitable clients... with maaany preexisting conditions  .

[Misha]

I think it is worse because it is a "socialist" type of rationing. Insurance companies conduct "for profit" based rationing, which is purely capitalist, which makes it so much better.  

And, interestingly, so much more inefficient. IIRC, administrative costs eat up between 10 and 12% of all health care costs. In Canada, it is less than 2%.

BTW, if senior citizens didn't have government-run and subsidized medicare and were left with the necessity to buy health insurance from private H.I. companies, guess what would have happened to them... Right, they would be "rationed out" of health care, as totally unprofitable clients... with maaany preexisting conditions  .

Slate had an interesting article about a woman who bought medical coverage and was then sent a bill for $12,000 after giving birth. It seems that most private health care plans that are not obtained through good plans at work, don't cover much (if anything) of the cost of giving birth in a  hospital. Unfortunately, can't find that article but I did find this one that actually looks objectively at the Canadian way of doing things: http://slate.com/id/2223911/.

[Faux Pas]

Just do a little search on international press... you will see how americans are making fool of themselves with these "socialist", "russia", "hitler & co"
propaganda.
It seems to me you have reached a new low...

docetae

Most of us Americans don't see it as making a fool of ourselves. Of course you are free to see  and interpret it anyway you wish. Our civil liberties and our constitution is still something many of us take seriously. To you it's just a document or a word without meaning. For us it is the cornerstone of the founding of our country. The issue of national healthcare has farther reaching implications than you may understand. IIRC you are french and living in Canada. That hardly lends you any credibility as to make the statement you made here. There is a reason the "propaganda" references socialist, Russia, Hitler & co.. That reason is because in those situations individual freedoms were systematically stripped as we are experiencing now.

The international press has little meaning in this regard to most Americans as this is an internal issue. The international press has had some not so flattering statements concerning the French for many years also 

[Ade]

docetae

Most of us Americans don't see it as making a fool of ourselves. Of course you are free to see  and interpret it anyway you wish. Our civil liberties and our constitution is still something many of us take seriously. To you it's just a document or a word without meaning. For us it is the cornerstone of the founding of our country. The issue of national healthcare has farther reaching implications than you may understand. IIRC you are french and living in Canada. That hardly lends you any credibility as to make the statement you made here. There is a reason the "propaganda" references socialist, Russia, Hitler & co.. That reason is because in those situations individual freedoms were systematically stripped as we are experiencing now.

The international press has little meaning in this regard to most Americans as this is an internal issue. The international press has had some not so flattering statements concerning the French for many years also 

It's quite amusing for most of us over here to see Americans ignoring the facts over the patently false propaganda. A lot of the people of your country are showing themselves as ignorant and foolish on the world stage; nothing new there though I guess.

[Faux Pas]

It's quite amusing for most of us over here to see Americans ignoring the facts over the patently false propaganda. A lot of the people of your country are showing themselves as ignorant and foolish on the world stage; nothing new there though I guess.

Oh really SJ?  What are the "facts" Americans have been ignoring? While you are at it please describe the patently false propaganda as well.

Please continue to amuse yourselves. You seem to have the idea that a lot of Americans actually care what you over there think or that it even matters. They don't. Americans are becoming more and more European in that regard 

[ECOCKS]

Playing with the Old School kiddies, FP?

I don't know about the becoming more European thing though, does that mean we have to drink our coffee a thimble at a time and it will become impossible to find a decent ribeye?

[Ade]

Oh really SJ?  What are the "facts" Americans have been ignoring? While you are at it please describe the patently false propaganda as well.

I think many of the fallacies have already been covered in this thread, why not read it again?

Please continue to amuse yourselves. You seem to have the idea that a lot of Americans actually care what you over there think or that it even matters. They don't. Americans are becoming more and more European in that regard 

Hm, well, I think that the Americans I refer to couldn't even find Europe on a map so I would be surprised if they cared about what us "socialist" over here think. Now carry on and amuse us some more.

Oh, one of the most amusing things I saw on TV was an American man holding up a placard that said, "Democracy not Socialism".  Just too damn funny.

[Faux Pas]

heh heh
Yeah ED I should probably be ashamed but, I'm not.

You mean your not looking forward to the conversion? Who needs a thick juicy ribeye when you can have haggis, blood pudding, fannie packs and speedos?  

A couple of our Euro forum brethern apparently think we should be like them right down to their wonderful healthcare  

[Faux Pas]

I think many of the fallacies have already been covered in this thread, why not read it again?

Why am I not surprised you couldn't be specific? It's because SJ you don't know the facts or patently false propaganda. It's a safe bet you don't know sh!t from shinola about Americans. You seem to find joy in being a sheep and parroting anything you perceive as negative about America.

Hm, well, I think that the Americans I refer to couldn't even find Europe on a map so I would be surprised if they cared about what us "socialist" over here think. Now carry on and amuse us some more.

How many Americans is this? Where do you know these Americans from? Your newscasts?

Oh, one of the most amusing things I saw on TV was an American man holding up a placard that said, "Democracy not Socialism".  Just too damn funny.

I can see you finding this funny I just have no idea why but I'll chalk it up to "cultural differences" 

[ECOCKS]

You mean your not looking forward to the conversion? Who needs a thick juicy ribeye when you can have haggis, blood pudding, fannie packs and speedos?  

Yeah, it's gonna be hard to find a decent breakfast, unless we count that they all love McDonald's so much. Guess pretty soon they'll be claiming that it's a European invention or something.

Wonder why our European McD's are even more fantastically profitable and faster growing than the American ones? I mean sales are going through the roof, employees get decent meals, we're spoiling them with those 35 hour, be-here-or-get-fired work-weeks and all, so why do you think they just cannot get enough burgers, fries and shakes when they could be having all those wonderful things on your list?

I am excepting the speedos of course!