How should I handle this girl?

[GQBlues]

I am not sure of marriage  agencies, but yet have to comment- the girl who was a part of this "social" is not the person who "is not thinking of meeting WM" Then how come she was at this party in the first place?

Doll-

I'm not quite sure why you keep saying they met at a social when he stated they exchanged correspondence through Mamba.ru.
 
However....

I read back from the beginning and it looks as though TBB was either overlapping the time meeting with the rest of the 9 women with 5 (non-consecutive) of the evenings out of the 2 weeks ( 12 days if you took out travel time ) were being spent with her in which they were doing the deeds (without closing out any deal) while all along meeting/dating other women.

Or, he somehow met all nine on the first day or two and decided to concentrate only on her in the ensuing days, which would then make the 5 evenings in 10 full days seem rather unlikely. This will definitely make any boy seriously starve for some LOVE since he ended up with 10 Russian daytime hours plus 5 evenings without a squeeze.

So now from your POV which of these two is likely the scenario and better explains the girl's behavior?

[Erwin]

TTB said "The risk is that she'll meet some Russian guy in the meantime."

When I last spoke to a group of University master degree students in Russia, this very topic came up for discussions.  There was this very attractive young RW who has never met or dated foreign men.  I could tell from the energy in the room that many of her fellow male Russian students like her very much and would like to be with her.

She told the group that she has never met or dated any foreign men before she met an AM in the metro.  Apparently, he got lost and needed a direction. She helped him to get where he was going. As a token of appreciation, he offered to buy her coffee and she accepted. They got to spend a bit of time together during his stays in Russia.  She would miss classes or leave classes early so that she could catch a metro and meet him. Being a student, she had a decent paying part-time job. She called in sick and did not show up for work because she wanted to be with him. She lost her job because it. One thing lead to another, they became very closed. She was very sadden when he left as she has developed real feelings for him.

When he was back in the US, they kept in touch by e-mail and phones.  Two months later, he called her and told her that he wanted to see her next month. She told him that next month is not a good time because she would not be able to spend a quality time with him then; she had to study for exams and take the exams so that she can graduate.  She also told him that she had to keep her new part-time job; she needed the money to pay the rent for the dorm where she was staying while she was attending the University.

His reactions to this explanation were extremely puzzling to her and hurt her feelings.  He asked her if there was someone else. He did everything he could to verify that what she told him was in fact true. Among other things, he called the University. He called the place she worked. He posted her private e-mail conversation with him in the chat room and sought advice from the many members of the chat room who willingly provided him with some of the misguided advice she has ever seen. To make the story short, it became evident to her that he did not trust her, and that he was very possessive and controlling. It became evident to her the reason for him wanting to see her next month was to alleviate his darkest fear which was for her to meet and see other Russian or foreign men. She wondered how he would treat her if she was ever married to her and leaved with him in the States.

To make the story short, the general consensus among this group of students is that if this were the real reason why you feel pressured to decide now whether you should go to see her next month, then you should probably not go at all because you do not trust her.

She is happily married now to a modest Russian man. They invited us to stay at their place when we come to Russia.

FWIW...

E

[KenC]

TBB,
I have read all the posts here and now would like to give you my 2 cents worth.  

You went on a VM trip, exploring the possibilities of meeting someone special.  Nothing wrong with that at all.  You happened to meet someone that you became very interested in knowing better.  (Hard to gage just how serious you are at this point with what knowledge and time the two of you have spent together.)  You were much more serious after the initial meetings than she was.

She did NOTHING wrong and many things right IMO.  Your meeting was a very casual event for the both of you, as you were meeting multiple women.  You just got more serious faster than she did.  She just was not as "in to you" as you were "in to her."  Aloof?  Shy?  Maybe, but maybe just not as interested in getting deeper then as you.

It appears as though, through communications since your visit, that she is now reconsidering the subject of getting more serious with you.  Taking time off from a new job in August when she has already told you she could not take time off until November, is a big deal.  I look at it as a change in her stance from what it was before and a deffinate sign that she is more serious about you than before.  (When her work and friends were more important than you)   Her taking even 2 days off to be with you is a compromise from not seeing you until November.  A compromise for you as you would only have a few days of her exclusive attention, and a compromise for her for taking time off before November.  Compromise is a very good thing in building a strong relationship.

There are a few things that concern me in all this and they are concerns about YOU, not her.  It is troubling that you degrade her and her job with statements like "dizzy blond" or mock her $4/hr job.  If you do not think she is better than that, why even bother?

Assuming that your comments were not a true insight to your feelings for her and that you are sincerely interested in pursuing a long term relationship with her, I suggest you go in August.  Make the best of what she is offering to you and do your best to show her that TBB is a great catch for her too.  Go win her heart, as she has given you an opportunity to do so.  Best of luck to whatever you decide.
KenC

[TwoBitBandit]

Maybe I got you wrong but from what I read from you I have rather the impression that you want her a) to jump into the sack with you ASAP and b) an immediate commitment. Dude, if that's more-or-less right than there's just one thing I can ask you: Dude, are you serious?! O_O

You’re reading something between the lines that isn’t there.  I don’t want to pressure her into sex, I don’t object to her seeing anyone else.  (I’m certainly chasing other prospects.)

If you have the time and money, why not? If you are worried about being bored while she is at work, bring a few good books.

You complain about 5k a trip would cost you but unfortunately you don't indicate how much this amount really is for you. A months income? More? Less? YOU are the one who started to look for a RW. Now you are complaining about the money it costs to meet a nice girl for some days and find out if you two could have a common future. Dude, are you serious?!

Money isn’t the problem for me.  I have a good life in Silicon Valley.  Time is the issue.

You write about the 4USD she makes per hour but seem to neglect the fact that it's her JOB, her INCOME, her LIFE-SUPPORT! Dude, are you serious?!

I’m looking for reciprocation.  I am thinking about the second-to-last night I was in Nizhny, holding her hand and looking into her eyes, and telling her how much I’d like to spend the following day with her because it would be my last day in NN (the day in question was a Sunday and she didn’t have to work).  I’d told her three weeks before that I’d be with her on that particular day, so it shouldn’t have been a surprise.   Nevertheless, she decided to spend the day sunbathing and we only met for a few hours in the evening.   There was a trend like that a lot of our time together: it wasn’t just that one day.

If my relationship with the girl had more reciprocation, then I wouldn’t hesitate to go back and have three days of downtime without her, since she’d be hurrying over right after work and we’d spend six hours together in the evening.  Her behavior when we were like that, then I wouldn’t hesitate to take the downtime hit.   During our time together, I was more into her than she was into me.

If I return and our relationship continues in the same way, it will be a wasted trip.  It seems from her correspondence that she’s getting more into me, which is the only reason I’m considering any trip at all.

I'm not quite sure why you keep saying they met at a social when he stated they exchanged correspondence through Mamba.ru.

Correct.
 

I read back from the beginning and it looks as though TBB was either overlapping the time meeting with the rest of the 9 women with 5 (non-consecutive) of the evenings out of the 2 weeks ( 12 days if you took out travel time ) were being spent with her in which they were doing the deeds (without closing out any deal) while all along meeting/dating other women.

Or, he somehow met all nine on the first day or two and decided to concentrate only on her in the ensuing days, which would then make the 5 evenings in 10 full days seem rather unlikely. This will definitely make any boy seriously starve for some LOVE since he ended up with 10 Russian daytime hours plus 5 evenings without a squeeze.

My total trip was 18 days including travel time: my goal was to spend two full weekends there.  So, I had 16 days on-ground available to meet women.  Many of the women I just met one night.  I didn’t ever meet more than one woman in a day.  I considered it, but there’s too much that could go wrong without an agency or interpreter or someone running interference.  During the daytime I was studying Russian at the university in NN.  I was pretty busy my whole trip.

To make the story short, the general consensus among this group of students is that if this were the real reason why you feel pressured to decide now whether you should go to see her next month, then you should probably not go at all because you do not trust her.

There’s at least some nugget of truth in here: because I don’t trust her.  I don’t trust that she’s as much into me as I am into her.  So, perhaps the answer is that I need to get to the bottom of that before I make a trip, and really think about where I lead our correspondence.

There are a few things that concern me in all this and they are concerns about YOU, not her.  It is troubling that you degrade her and her job with statements like "dizzy blond" or mock her $4/hr job.  If you do not think she is better than that, why even bother?

Hello Ken, as soon as I posted this topic I knew that you would eventually personally show up with some tough love!

You’re right, I’m being a prick.  I’m coming from a place of frustration and lack of clarity.  Our discussions about us spending more time together on our last weekend together in NN keep playing over and over in my mind.  I’m thinking, “If I don’t spend more time with this girl now, I won’t be able to for a long time” and she’s thinking “I really want to go sunbathe with Olya!”  (I confess that there’s lot of other possible explanations, like that I scared her off a little and that she wanted to move forward at her own pace.)  In any event, you’re right, I should knock off the degrading statements, they’re inappropriate.   The right path for me is to deal with my own angst, which has everything to do with my faults and not hers.  So, the consensus “chill, dude” tone of this thread is entirely applicable.

[Blues Fairy]

I’m thinking, “If I don’t spend more time with this girl now, I won’t be able to for a long time” and she’s thinking “I really want to go sunbathe with Olya!”  (I confess that there’s lot of other possible explanations,

You seem to totally underestimate the importance of catching every chance to sunbathe for someone who lives in the middle of Russia where snow winter lasts 9 months and really sunny warm days - about 4 weeks out of a year.    Understandable for a narrow-minded Californian but not for someone who seems to value reciprocation like you do. 

[BC]

You’re reading something between the lines that isn’t there.  I don’t want to pressure her into sex, I don’t object to her seeing anyone else.  (I’m certainly chasing other prospects.)

Comeon TBB.. it bugs you.. would bug anyone that has heard of the 'if she's into you you'll know it' deal.

Money isn’t the problem for me.  I have a good life in Silicon Valley.  Time is the issue.

Time on the ground, before and after that fateful decision is what will make or break IMHO.  Sure, money is a lubricant but it won't replace the time one will need to feel comfortable with the decisions at hand.  As a self employed guy, I can safely say that at least 6 months were 'written off' here in the before and after phases.  It seems you have a desire that things will go 'your way' as far as time is concerned.. I can almost guarantee it won't.

I’m looking for reciprocation.  I am thinking about the second-to-last night I was in Nizhny, holding her hand and looking into her eyes, and telling her how much I’d like to spend the following day with her because it would be my last day in NN (the day in question was a Sunday and she didn’t have to work).  I’d told her three weeks before that I’d be with her on that particular day, so it shouldn’t have been a surprise.   Nevertheless, she decided to spend the day sunbathing and we only met for a few hours in the evening.   There was a trend like that a lot of our time together: it wasn’t just that one day.

If my relationship with the girl had more reciprocation, then I wouldn’t hesitate to go back and have three days of downtime without her, since she’d be hurrying over right after work and we’d spend six hours together in the evening.  Her behavior when we were like that, then I wouldn’t hesitate to take the downtime hit.   During our time together, I was more into her than she was into me.

Reciprocation for what.. drop everything and go 'head over heels'?  Sounds like the lady has a level, even pragmatic head and won't let emotions rule her otherwise stable life.  Learn to understand her way of thinking.

If I return and our relationship continues in the same way, it will be a wasted trip.  It seems from her correspondence that she’s getting more into me, which is the only reason I’m considering any trip at all.

Ahh.. expectations.. the root of all evil.  My tip, avoid such.

There’s at least some nugget of truth in here: because I don’t trust her.  I don’t trust that she’s as much into me as I am into her.  So, perhaps the answer is that I need to get to the bottom of that before I make a trip, and really think about where I lead our correspondence.

Now we're getting somewhere..

The foundation of every relationship is trust.  Without trust - there is no relationship.  That's where you are at at this point - no binding relationship, only penpals.  In order to move forward you have two roads.. either the road of distrust which IMHO leads nowhere, or that of 'blind trust' with the condition that you will have to accept the roll of the dice as they fall.  Your choice.  I doubt you will be able to 'get to the bottom of that' without wings under your butt.

[janic]

You’re reading something between the lines that isn’t there.

Of course it's very possible that I draw wrong conclusions from what you wrote. But it still irritates me that you are so upset that she's leaving you in the evening. - And 21:00 might be early for you but if she still has to get home, do there some stuff and wants some hours of sleep before she goes to work the next day than 21h doesn't appears early at all.

(I’m certainly chasing other prospects.) [...] I don’t trust that she’s as much into me as I am into her.

Sorry, I'm not looking for possibilities to bash you but these two statements pretty much contradict each other. If I'm very much into smbdy than I don't really chase somebody else. Something's wrong.

Time is the issue.

Uhm.... Are you sure you want to continue chasing RW? - It's probably one of the most expensive and time consuming ways to get yourself a wife.
Of course there are a lot of WM who do it the "marriage express"-way: Browse the agencies, send some mails, then have some phonecalls and finally visit her for 3-5 days. Go back home, send some more emails, have some more phonecalls and visit her again to propose and file the paperwork. IMO a majority of these relations is condemned to ultimately fail.

If I return and our relationship continues in the same way, it will be a wasted trip.  It seems from her correspondence that she’s getting more into me, which is the only reason I’m considering any trip at all.

I told you before what I think about your statement of a "wasted trip". Nothing. Wrong attitude.
And yes, I think she's into you. But if you want to make it work you have to accept that she has a different pace than you. IMO if you try to push her you will lose her. So the only viable way would be to adapt to her pace, accepting all the trips, short evenings, etc. If you are able to adjust yourself to her pace you might get lucky and get a very good girl. But unfortunately I doubt that you'll be able to change your approach sufficiently.

Greets, j.

[Doll]

Doll-

I'm not quite sure why you keep saying they met at a social when he stated they exchanged correspondence through Mamba.ru.
 

Oh, ok I see now,yet TBB did go to this social and she knew he met many other women. The girl is smart and intelligent  so her behavior was appropriate in my opinion.

[I/O]

TBB: I think you have some maturing to do. To play "Cool Hand Luke" requires being..........................hello, cool!! (Cool as in calm, relaxed, take it as it comes, it doesn't play your way, ok no problem). By your own admission here, you are not "cool" right now and I'm suggesting you weren't in Russia either. You went in to play the field, were diverted to one and stressed over how it was playing out or not playing out.

Look at the other side. She is being cool and playing the field (or at least was) also. She has every right to do so, she is single right? Russians, particularly Russian women are very good at "appearing" to play it very cool. When you get to know them better you will find that is anything but the case. Their "stressing" over how he or she is thinking is as high or higher than anyone else. They are simply better at playing the "straight face".

Early in the "game" of relationships (it is a game regardless of the arguments to the contrary) it becomes a matter of knowing when to hold and when to fold feelings. Couple these with the common expectation of many Russian women that the guy will go to the ends of the earth romancing her, you are on the BBQ being grilled from the start.

You can go the route of trying to get direct answers from her and frankly I think you are wasting your time and or emotions. If the Russian women I know are any example, you won't get those answers until much later if at all and if they come it won't be as a result of your questions. IMO you have 3 choices, skip it, go in November or go in August. If you go, setting a level (and sharing that with her prior) of expectations is ridiculous. You are the hunter, you take the risk (time, emotions or financial), you travel etc. The risk is you come up with zero. Very high chance of that being reality. IMO your decision now is whether or not to take that risk. Sit down and consider this carefully. "Am I prepared to take the risk of ending with zero by going before I have any more clarity than I have right now". If the answer is no, then skip it altogether.

BTW, you need to prove your worth with any woman (as she does with you) and thus far, the only thing you have had time to prove with her is you are playing the field. You are still playing the field right? Nothing wrong with that but if you expect a serious commitment from her whilst you are in that vein, you're wasting your time. How many times do guys come on these forums lecturing that "RW ain't stupid" and then turn around and play them for exactly that? Whether you realise it or not, this is exactly what you are doing if you expect ANY indication of exclusive commitment from her at this stage.

I am seriously concerned about your "$4 / hour" job comment. There is a little thing called respect. The lack of same is precisely what gets some hated in Russia / by Russians.

[Doll]

I am seriously concerned about your "$4 / hour" job comment. There is a little thing called respect. The lack of same is precisely what gets some hated in Russia / by Russians.

Exactly!

[Doll]

BTW, you need to prove your worth with any woman (as she does with you) and thus far, the only thing you have had time to prove with her is you are playing the field. You are still plying the field right? Nothing wrong with that but if you expect a serious commitment from her whilst you are in that vein, you're wasting your time. How many times do guys come on these forums lecturing that "RW ain't stupid" and then turn around and play them for exactly that? Whether you realize it or not, this is exactly what you are doing if you expect ANY indication of exclusive commitment from her at this stage.

Excellent!

[MatryoshkaMan]

Here's my opinion based only on what you posted...move on. You need to find someone who will literally drop everything to be with you. If I was in your situation and I flew over there to meet with this woman and she could not spend every available minute outside work with me (work is mandatory, all other time is her's to choose what to do with) I would know right then and there that the chemistry & connection was just not strong enough..the first meeting should be WOW WOW WOW!! Anything less on the first meeting (ie no sparks flying) what will it be like when she reluctantly marries you. There are SO many women over there who could be more into you, don't settle for her no matter how attractive she is! Attractive and ATTENTIVE women are everywhere there! I know its hard to move on after all the money, emotions and thoughts about her...but in the long run you will find a better match and you will feel the difference right away. Mrs. right will drop everything and be with you because a) she likes and is attracted to you and b) you have spent hours and thousands of dollars travelling just to see her! When I first went to Ukraine in 2000 I spent 6 straight weeks with my now ex. We were not apart even 1 minute of the entire time. Now that I have found someone else and am going to be meeting her in 2 months, I expect the same - that we will spend every possible moment together!

[I/O]

When I first went to Ukraine in 2000 I spent 6 straight weeks with my now ex. We were not apart even 1 minute of the entire time. Now that I have found someone else and am going to be meeting her in 2 months, I expect the same - that we will spend every possible moment together!

Not even the slightest hint of irony in there?

[Daveman]

Here's my opinion based only on what you posted...move on. You need to find someone who will literally drop everything to be with you. If I was in your situation and I flew over there to meet with this woman and she could not spend every available minute outside work with me...

You do realize that it was a VM trip, right?  Yes, I'd agree to an extent if it were VO, and all planned in advance, after lots of communication, blah blah and so forth (disagree only in that for some of us.. 24/7 togetherness is not necessarily a good thing.. I like to have a little time to miss each other if I'm there for more than a week).. but why in the world would a woman drop everything for someone she just met and with whom she had a few dates?..

These are DATES...  not siamese hip bone fusion!  They had some excellent first few dates, and then decided to continue dating.   I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.  :noidea:

[Doll]

When I first went to Ukraine in 2000 I spent 6 straight weeks with my now ex. We were not apart even 1 minute of the entire time. Now that I have found someone else and am going to be meeting her in 2 months, I expect the same - that we will spend every possible moment together!

[Jooky]

Hey TwoBit,

I didn't have too much to say after the responses you've gotten so far. In particular I agree with what Ken, Daveman, and I/O had to say, and the general advice that you should chill and take things at a normal pace with this girl. After reading your report I do have a few additional comments.

From what I understand:

This girl was hesitant to meet you the first week because she knew you were lining up a bunch of dates. She met you around the middle of your trip and it sounds like you really hit it off. You admit that you pushed a bit too hard on your first day, telling her that if she would commit to spending every day with you, you wouldn't date other girls that week.

I think she did the right thing to decline your offer. It shows that she has some self respect.

She still ended up meeting you five times, but on the day before your last she grilled you a bit about girls you met during the week, and she replied with a "Ah, so I am your fourth choice". I think that says a lot about what's going on in her mind.

I hate to say this, but as much as she probably likes you, I'm sure you came off as some kind of player. You've got to consider that Russian women often use the reason or excuse that they seek a foreigner because he will be loyal and not chase every skirt that walks by, like a Russian man would.

You gave her a big reason to have reservations about you. Of course she wasn't ready to devote all her time to you. I'm sure she didn't want to fall too hard for this guy she really likes when she knows he's still playing the field - as you continue to do back home!

I honestly think that the ease of dating in Russia has spoiled you a bit and given you too many expectations as if this beautiful and intelligent girl should be happy to drop everything for you even though you didn't do so for her and you haven't yet.

Makes me wonder if you had been firm and told her absolutely that you were going to drop all other dates that week instead of trying to make a deal if your week would have turned out differently.

As it is, it all sounds good to me overall! I don't think you blew it with this girl. Now relax, take it easy and do visit her in August. If she knows this time you're coming out just for her, things should go well. It sounds like you're more anxious to get married than you are to get married to her. Take your time and get to know her. Good luck!

[GQBlues]

Hhhmm...I'll make a fairly bold assumption and TBB can tell me if I am mistaken.

If the good folks here are right and this girl's actions are a result of TBB having other dates during the week - then she's off the charts for me.

That is predicated on the assumption that TBB told her what he was going to do once he arrived into town. That is to meet/date several correspondence. If this girl agreed to those conditions before he arrived, then acted the way she did once he got to town a) just to get even, or b) to play head games; then I'd ditch her butt in a cool Moscow minute. I can never put up with that crap here, there, or anywhere. You either agree to it or you don't.

Conversely, if TBB DID NOT tell her anything about his social itinerary - then he better man-up bigger than he has so far.

[Sculpto]

TBB,
I have read all the posts here and now would like to give you my 2 cents worth.  

You went on a VM trip, exploring the possibilities of meeting someone special.  Nothing wrong with that at all.  You happened to meet someone that you became very interested in knowing better.  (Hard to gage just how serious you are at this point with what knowledge and time the two of you have spent together.)  You were much more serious after the initial meetings than she was.

She did NOTHING wrong and many things right IMO.  Your meeting was a very casual event for the both of you, as you were meeting multiple women.  You just got more serious faster than she did.  She just was not as "in to you" as you were "in to her."  Aloof?  Shy?  Maybe, but maybe just not as interested in getting deeper then as you.

It appears as though, through communications since your visit, that she is now reconsidering the subject of getting more serious with you.  Taking time off from a new job in August when she has already told you she could not take time off until November, is a big deal.  I look at it as a change in her stance from what it was before and a deffinate sign that she is more serious about you than before.  (When her work and friends were more important than you)   Her taking even 2 days off to be with you is a compromise from not seeing you until November.  A compromise for you as you would only have a few days of her exclusive attention, and a compromise for her for taking time off before November.  Compromise is a very good thing in building a strong relationship.

There are a few things that concern me in all this and they are concerns about YOU, not her.  It is troubling that you degrade her and her job with statements like "dizzy blond" or mock her $4/hr job.  If you do not think she is better than that, why even bother?

Assuming that your comments were not a true insight to your feelings for her and that you are sincerely interested in pursuing a long term relationship with her, I suggest you go in August.  Make the best of what she is offering to you and do your best to show her that TBB is a great catch for her too.  Go win her heart, as she has given you an opportunity to do so.  Best of luck to whatever you decide.
KenC

Ken, we get to agree for once!  Great post and advice. 

[AnastassiaAsh]

Hi TBB,

I read attentively through her letters that you posted. This is what I see.

She really spends lots of time doing anything other than trying to connect with you what any person in love would do, so she isn't quite there. She isn't shy to share with you how she drinks bear or cocktails with her friends... She says that she doesn't like the process of shopping but still mentioned that she and her friend went to couple of boutiques. (hint) Then at the end of that letter she talks about her misgivings of nothing happening between you and her, her past relationship, her lack of feelings of satisfaction falling on your relationship and she is asking for your help. This tells me no matter how you look at it she isn't ready for any relationship, she might want to but emotionally she isn't there and afraid. It may take lots of time at best for you to 'heal' her but will you be willing to take this time?

Then that paragraph where she tells her friends about you. Her friends first thought that it was again one of her crazy ideas.... It means something of this kind happened before, something that was very strange on her part and her friends kind of got tired of it and called this case the same. It can be their jealousy of course too. And then her friend Olga doesn't want her to move to the US, doesn't want to loose her. (egoistic approach)

Then she explains how her relationships with RM usually happen and that they don't know what a compromise is which is really important for her. (this is true)

Then it seems to me that she in general takes decisions about your visit or you not because she really wants that but like a good addition to solving some of her small or big problems. Like she was saying her computer at work broke, it was horrible, she didn't want to work and your invitation to have a vacation sounded good to her then, but not before that when she was just planning to work while you are there. It seems she is using you just as a rebound or some good distraction from her problems. At least at this stage. And then when her computer was fixed she was still saying she wanted to be with you as she could trust you a little more. So at best - she isn't sure what she wants and who she wants. What ever life throws at her she makes a decision right then, and it can totally change depending on the current circumstances.

I don't like going to St.Pete idea either. It can be a good way of her spending her vacation but it definitely won't be about you and around you, again you are just a great addition. When will YOU be the focus of it all? Plus in any way it's too soon to go on vacation. You go on vacation with a woman when you are engaged or better even after the marriage. Other wise you will be used for fun and it won't lead to anything other than loosing money and precious time. At least from a point of view of a woman who really wants to get married and her man is her priority - not traveling, shopping, having fun or etc etc. She is saying she would like to change scenery and won't have any problems financially. Still doesn't look serious to me. I would personally save that trip for later.

I understand that you might have omitted some personal things in her letters, but overall it seems she is pretty reserved expressing her feelings, almost in a cold way, and even her 'kissing you' at the end isn't quite convincing and warm. She is holding back big time.

If you want to visit her, better sooner than later, better in her town than somewhere else. Write and talk a lot to her before that trip and figure out where it is all going: having fun or going to another level in this relationship. It's a pity that emotionally she can't think about her future too far, she is afraid and doesn't want to be hurt again..........instead of knowing exactly who, when, what she wants and seizing the opportunity full strength.

I suppose this can go both ways, if it ends happily it is clear it will take a looooong time! Reminds me of a 'BillyB's relationship' end. Do you know what I mean?

[GQBlues]

I agree with you Anastasia. What you're saying is exactly my point. While I don't think this woman is particularly doing anything wrong (done) she's not in a state to be deliberate and make a quick decision in getting heavily involved in another relationship, let alone someone from so far away.

Everyone loves to read and write a good love story. TBB forcing the issue and going out and proving to her that she's the only one right now will only net him getting his booty served up in a silver platter. This happens to WMs going to FSU more often than not because they grasp and hold onto to whatever romantic delusional ideas taking root in their heads and are no longer capable of thinking straight. They ignore what is plainly obvious and bring a woman home, then when reality conflicts with the fantasies of the chase, they cry wolf.

This girl is not doing this because she's Russian. She's not doing it because she's evil. She's not doing this because TBB somehow did not go out of his way to make her realize she's the ONLY ONE. This girl did what she did because she's a woman who just got out of a relationship and is not in a state to understand what she really wants. TBB was a novelty and a passing distraction. Force the issue deeper than that right now, like many are urging you to do, then you may as well change your screen name to Don Quixote because you'll be chasing windmills.

Why WMs try to convince another WM to go back out there and chase this girl exclusively under these circumstances, I will never know. Why WMs urge another WM to give a woman his full trust after only having 15 hours of face time, I will never know. But they do. Benefit of the doubt? Absolutely. Trust? Not in a heartbeat.

I stand by my posts in this thread. If TBB have this much interest in this woman, better set your head straight and see things for what they are. Lay down that romantic novel being written for a while.

As for the trip, I have a couple of reasons why I believe SP is a better choice. For one, the girl will be somewhat out of her peer influences and be in a somewhat neutral environment.

[TwoBitBandit]

Thanks I/O, BC, Daveman, Jooky, GQBlues, Anastassia.

Before I say anything more, I want to plug Anastassia's services.  She helped me write my profile on mamba.ru and make it "impeccable" (as she put it).  My response rate on mamba was far higher than I expected, and I owe that largely to her meticulous editing and great attention to detail.  Some of the girls commented on what was in my profile, and said that was the reason they decided to respond.

Comeon TBB.. it bugs you.. would bug anyone that has heard of the 'if she's into you you'll know it' deal.

Of course, but as others have pointed out that she may be holding back if she thinks I’m not serious, especially if I’m simultaneously chasing other girls.  I think 'if she's into you you'll know it' paradigm applies much more in the context of visit-one.  I acknowledge that you have a point: something seems off about her aloofness.  Yet, she may just be reacting to my behavior.  It’s not black-and-white as some here seem to think.

TBB: I think you have some maturing to do.

It probably seems like that to you, although if you had met me in person you probably wouldn't be saying that.  My writing style and occasional hyperbolic use of the word "dude" might have given you that impression. IRL, I manage a staff of a dozen software engineers and I have for a long time.  I earned my engineering degree by working while simultaneously taking a full courseload.  I'm a pillar of society by any measure.

The $4/hr comment was out-of-line and inappropriate: I deserved the six-way cluster-cluebat I got.

If the good folks here are right and this girl's actions are a result of TBB having other dates during the week - then she's off the charts for me.

What exactly do you mean by “off the charts for me”?

That is predicated on the assumption that TBB told her what he was going to do once he arrived into town. That is to meet/date several correspondence. If this girl agreed to those conditions before he arrived, then acted the way she did once he got to town a) just to get even, or b) to play head games; then I'd ditch her butt in a cool Moscow minute. I can never put up with that crap here, there, or anywhere. You either agree to it or you don't.

Conversely, if TBB DID NOT tell her anything about his social itinerary - then he better man-up bigger than he has so far.

The full situation is described more in detail in my trip report, but here it is in a nutshell.  Inna was my first choice to meet, but at the time I was starting to plan dates on my trip she was out of town and I didn’t even know if I’d be able to meet her.  After I landed in Russia, she returned to NN and we got back in touch.  We agreed to meet for two days on the last weekend I would be in NN.  As a result of a misunderstanding with one of the other girls, I had a free Saturday mid-way through my trip.  I contacted Inna and she agreed to meet me that day, although she was a little surprised.   We spent a pleasant evening together and then I told her I wanted to spend the rest of the evenings for the rest of the trip with her and cancel all meetings with other girls.  She later declined the offer, but we agreed to spend the following weekend together.
Inna and I didn’t specifically discuss multiple girls before I met her, but I doubt she was expecting anything else since the original plan was to meet for only two days.  Certainly, it was clear to her on the first day when I met her and we talked about it.

I hate to say this, but as much as she probably likes you, I'm sure you came off as some kind of player. You've got to consider that Russian women often use the reason or excuse that they seek a foreigner because he will be loyal and not chase every skirt that walks by, like a Russian man would.

Yes, I’m sure she had that impression to at least some degree.  Yet, it’s not the end of the world: such impressions can be undone by more serious action.

I honestly think that the ease of dating in Russia has spoiled you a bit and given you too many expectations as if this beautiful and intelligent girl should be happy to drop everything for you even though you didn't do so for her and you haven't yet.

There’s no doubt that I’ve been spoiled by Russian girls and the ease of dating them.  I admit it!

Makes me wonder if you had been firm and told her absolutely that you were going to drop all other dates that week instead of trying to make a deal if your week would have turned out differently.

IMHO, it means I would have spent a few evenings staring at the ceiling tiles in my flat and nothing else.  I can see why you might make that supposition, but my own feeling about this specific girl is that it wouldn’t have changed much.

Hi TBB, I read attentively through her letters that you posted. This is what I see.

Thank you, your insights are helpful as always.  I’m seriously considering naming my first daughter after you.
At no point during my time with this girl did she do anything that seemed like an insensitive drain on my pocketbook.  She always ordered modestly in restaurants.  When I tried to give her money for a taxi ride home, she would always refuse and take the bus.  (Except on the last day, when I kept her out past the bus running times and I agreed to pay for the taxi beforehand.)  When we decided to go to an amusement park together, she refused to take a taxi and instead we spent the next hour navigating the bus system to save 300 roubles.  (In retrospect, I greatly enjoyed my time on the bus with her… we spent the whole time whispering in each others’ ears.)  At no time did she drag me into a shop and try to get me to buy something.

The only time she had more than one drink with me was when we went on a boat ride and I brought a bottle of wine.  I have some concerns about the way she talks about alcohol, but I haven’t seen any red flags yet.  This is Russia, after all, drinking is part of the culture.  I myself like to have a few drinks with “the guys” once a week.  I do agree there have been a couple of comments in her correspondence suggesting that I should keep an eye on her alcohol consumption.

When I was a student at the university, I knew a lot of women… and they all had crazy ideas.  And how many young women have a real plan for their lives?  Women live much more “in the present” than men IMHO.

As I write this, though, I realize that I’m trying to rationalize away every point that you’re making… which with a little bit of introspection supports the idea that I’m not being centered.  So, I’ll work on chilling out some more…

I agree with your other points.  At this point, I think that I want to pursue this woman, the right path is to focus on the letters and phone calls and see if I can get to understand better what she’s all about… and if I decide it’s worthwhile, make a trip later in her city that doesn't involve any travel.

[JR]

I stick by what I have already said and I still agree with GQ. It is clear from what you've posted that Inna understood your were coming to visit ladies. You weren't even supposed to see her originally. Your offer to her should have shown a reasonable person all other options were off the table. It didn't have to be like the up thread poster who related the girl that lost her job due to taking time off to see the AM. But she could have spend a lot more time with you and chose not to. Sunbathing? She could have invited you.

It apprears she's just not as into you as you are into her. If she's coming out of a LTR then how long do you want to wait for her to get straight? Don't even think about trying to fix her or helping to fix her. Fixing herself is her job. You can only be responsible for yourself. Do anything more and you not only become a lifeboat but she'll probably sink you once she can swim again.

She doesn't think you're serious? Was she not listening when you offered to go exclusive with her on the first date? I'm sorry but it seems to me she missed some pretty big indicators her.

[Jooky]

Hey TwoBit,

The more I read about the situation, the more I think it's just a case of this girl really liking you but not being ready to jump into a serious relationship. I think your plan of seeing how things develop via email then making a trip if things seem right makes sense.

About your ad on mamba could you tell us more about how you went about it?

Was your profile entirely in Russian?

How much information did you put in your profile?

Did you mention your plans of seeking a wife in your profile, or in your first message? Or did you simply state that you're looking for a serious relationship? Or...?

How long (or short) was your introduction message? What did you say in your introduction?

I ask all this because you attracted a good response rate, so you did something right!

My approach on mamba was seriously not much more than a "Hey let's meet" or "Let's get to know each other" message and the ladies could see what's on my profile which wasn't too much either! Basically it was an invitation to start a chat conversation while I was online. That worked for me, but the key was that I was right there right now. I don't think it's the right approach for someone planning a trip, so I while advise using Russian dating sites, I can't advise using my method.

I think for the guy out here that wants to use the Russian dating site approach, your methods would work better, so let us in on your secrets. 

[I/O]

It probably seems like that to you, although if you had met me in person you probably wouldn't be saying that.  My writing style and occasional hyperbolic use of the word "dude" might have given you that impression. IRL, I manage a staff of a dozen software engineers and I have for a long time.  I earned my engineering degree by working while simultaneously taking a full courseload.  I'm a pillar of society by any measure.

Professional  or moral credentials may be impeccable but it doesn't necessarily translate into "maturity" when it comes to playing the relaxed role, particularly on the dating trail. Thats where I see the hole at this point. It continues to amaze me that guys go on a VM trip and once they decide who is their target, she should immediately be head over heels for them. TBB, I doubt you're seeing the arrogance it reeks of. Russians, particularly Russian women whom I know spot it a mile away and whilst a few will transcend their misgivings to give the punter a reasonable chance, most will not. Frankly, I think you have done well to gain agreement to further meetings and should be well satisfied with that rather than stressing over what, if anything, those meetings will produce.

[GoodOlBoy]

It continues to amaze me that guys go on a VM trip and once they decide who is their target, she should immediately be head over heels for them.

It amazes me to.

Russians, particularly Russian women whom I know spot it a mile away and whilst a few will transcend their misgivings to give the punter a reasonable chance, most will not.

I agree with you I/O, unless we are talking about "Agency Girls" (thats another mentality).


GOB