A woman of your age

[ECOCKS]

Kudos to both KenC and Scott for expressing first-hand viewpoints on this subject.

[groovlstk]

Maybe it's just me but are you saying that maybe laying out other people's marriage-ending problems today will somehow educate you in what to do with yours in case things go awry in the future? Somehow that doesn't sound right in more than one front so please correct me if I'm wrong...

First off, I'm not asking for people to share the reasons why their marriages failed. 

And yes, I've found a LOT of useful information from other men who have come before me and had the grace to share their experiences here. Isn't that, like, the purpose of this forum?

Why does this topic result in so many bunched panties? It's not like I'm asking people to discuss intimate details of their sex lives, this is basic stuff no different from what has been shared here each and every day.

If folks don't wish to share, it's their right, but it's very clear to me that even bringing up this issue in any context whatsoever makes a lot of guys feel a wee bit insecure.

[Sculpto]

GQ, part of my desire to see this topic discussed is selfish: I have an age gap of 15 years with my wife. Everything is great between us, but I'm not wearing blinders about the possibility that everything can change in 10 years. I can't imagine that I'm the only guy here who would benefit from the perspectives of KenC, Vaughan, Scott, BC, and others.

The folks in this thread who are most cocksure about how to deal with age gaps are not even living with their GFs/fiancees/spouses.

That tells me something.

And at the same time it pisses me off and activates my sarcasm gland - I'm tired of hearing platitudes like "age is just a number" and "everyone's different" and if someone uses Michael Douglas again as "proof" that women love older men, I will vomit.

Groov.. I have been dating women in their early 20s for the better part of this decade and lived with one for two years.  Its not like I suddenly decided to go after younger women.. it has been a process and I hope i have some insight at this point that will make things smoother.  At least I have a pretty good idea at what some of the major pitfalls are and how to avoid them.

As for the "ten years fro now" concerns.. frankly I don't think you should be worrying about that.  Live today because who the heck knows what is going to happen tomorrow.  If you make your life always interesting with constant development and growth.. ten years from now should be even better than it is now.

[Sculpto]

This reasoning overlooks one thing. If I were a GCW, who would I target? Yes, I might look at young attractive men, but I would realize that I would have a great deal of competition. Rather, I would seek out the oldest and the most naive gentleman out there. I would look for the man twenty, nay thirty, years older than me spouting off about how he believes that RW are more traditional and family oriented than that God-awful AW. I would look for a man willing to rationalize every one of my caprices as "cultural" and who truly did believe that RW are not interested in a good looking man  :evil: I would woo him with kind words about how RW prefer older men, and seeing if he will fall for my insistence that all RW will insist that a man be generous, with me of course defining "greedy" as not buying every toy and trinket that I spot....

The GCG is an overblown creature.  The number of cases of deliberate deception are how many?  I am pretty sure most of the cases of GCG we hear about did not start out that way.  Example...

I know a girl in the bay area.  She is 25, from Moscow and has been married to a guy 20+ years older than her for 5 years.  She is miserable in the marriage now even though she loved him when they first met and got married.  As time has passed he has turned into a control freak who gives her very little attention and is not giving her sex three times a day like she wants.  At best she is getting it twice a month.  He will not talk to her about it and gets angry when she brings it up.  So.. she is on Mamba looking for a way out.  She feels completely stuck in her situation.  She works as a dental assistant so she makes enough money to live on her own, but, she is a mouse and doesn't have the confidence to do it so she is looking for a hero to rescue her.  When the boom comes down you can bet your bottom dollar that guy will be all over the internet telling about how he was fooled and she was a GCG scammer and every other expletive he can muster.  But, the bottom line is she fell for the fantasy life and the reality has been a lot different.  I do not admire her, in fact I pity her.  But, when her now husband starts to rant about how she fooled him and that she only wanted the GC I will bet  most everyone will on one hand call him a dork for marrying with such a big age gap and two offer their support for being scammed.  But, the real truth is somewhat different.

I feel a lot of the GCG stories and even DV stories start out with good intentions and end up train wrecks, but, don't get reported as such on the internet.

[Sculpto]

If folks don't wish to share, it's their right, but it's very clear to me that even bringing up this issue in any context whatsoever makes a lot of guys feel a wee bit insecure.

Actually thats not the problem Groov.  The negative commentary too often comes off as judgmental and insensitive. 

[Misha]

Groov.. I have been dating women in their early 20s for the better part of this decade and lived with one for two years.  Its not like I suddenly decided to go after younger women.. it has been a process and I hope i have some insight at this point that will make things smoother.  At least I have a pretty good idea at what some of the major pitfalls are and how to avoid them.

So, in the past decade, you have never dated women in their mid or late twenties?

[KenC]

it's very clear to me that even bringing up this issue in any context whatsoever makes a lot of guys feel a wee bit insecure.

BINGO!

Of course it hits the raw nerve of insecurity, Groov.  Why do you think guys come on here claiming to look ten years younger than their real age, or brag about their sexual feats or their ability to be a player?  Anyone that tells you they never even think about it is either a fool or a bold faced lier.  If age doesn't matter then why all the justifications?    Or was it jb that wrote "floating down the river De Nile?" ???

Nobody ever freely admits that the age difference did their relationhip in.  Egos will not allow it most of the time.  Most of the time it is the peripheral things only associated with the age difference.  Kids or no kids.  "We grew apart."  "She wanted to pursue her career."  But usually, because this is a forum dominated by men, she was just a no good beatch.

I made a joke up thread about age gap marriages aging the men.  There is a little truth in every jest.  Being married to a much younger woman is damn difficult.  Emotionally and physically.
KenC

[GQBlues]

Vaughn-

But isn't this akin to putting a recognizable face to something so subjective?

I can take KenC's experience as an example. I am as different to KenC as our respective relationships are. I believe this to be true to Gator's as well. This is the part where I previously asked what objective talking points can we discussed to bring this type of discussion to fruition.

Scott admitted he never saw what happened to him until it was too late. KenC even admitted that 9.5 years of his 10 year relationship was great and it wasn't until his health and business was momentarily challenged that his wife took a diffrent turn. To me that implies they never saw this coming....So I am at a loss what they can tell (anyone) what to watch out for?

(btw, krimster mentioned in this thread that he's married for a while with age disparity, yet why is he not 'mixed' into this discussion? If there's anything to learn that can help many folks here, we can definitely learn it from him, yes?)

I will also add, the fact KenC is still open to a 20-year age difference despite his experience sort of put a little fold into this discussion btw. Maybe KenC can enlighten us with this. In one of Groov's grim reailty about age-disparity was about being old and bedridden and having a young wife feed him baby food. But I will ask, how is KenC's age and situation today avert this hypothetical situation?

For example, I am 57 and have begun communication with some fsuw.  Knowing what I know now, I would still consider a woman 20 years my junior or any age up to and including my age.  I would not consider a woman of any age that was never married before or has not had a child or she would have to be past her child bearing age.
KenC

---------------

One day two teenagers were talking about death when one boy said to the other, " You know I hope that when I die, I die a painless death".

The other boy said, "Yes, I know what you mean. I want mine to be fast so I don't feel it all. Like getting shot, you know."

The other boy said respond, "Well, not me. That's too violent. I would like to die like my Grandpa did as he died in his sleep, painlessly and peacefully. Unlike like the 3 passengers in his car!"

[GQBlues]

You maybe misread my post, groov. So I will ask again...

What objective talking points would you like to discuss? I won't mind sharing my experiences objectively to anyone.

edited to add:

Groov-

Could it also be the fact this subject (age-disparity), it's consequences, its implications, etc..is so subjective that trying to discuss it objectively more often than not only leaves people to speculation, anecdotes, statistics (if any), etc..worst, it mostly ends up with people bantering, chest-thumping, bible tossing at one another?

I am open to dicsuss anything about this matter if you can pinpoint and establish a great objective base.

[Gator]

BINGO!
Why do you think guys come on here claiming to look ten years younger than their real age, or brag about their sexual feats or their ability to be a player?

After a life of AW their age, some men may actually believe this in the beginning of their RW dating.  Silly boys reliving their youth.  I admit that it can be intoxicating, yet just a taste was enough for me.

Being married to a much younger woman is damn difficult.  Emotionally and physically.

My wife's kids have been more exhausting and disruptive and needy than her.

[Sculpto]

So, in the past decade, you have never dated women in their mid or late twenties?

Have had dates with women up to my age and even older.. none of them went further than a second date.. on my side there was either a lack of chemistry or they annoyed the hell out of me with their materialism and judgmental behavior or, they were just plain old boring..

on their side.. I don't drive a luxury car and own a multi million dollar home. 

[Sculpto]

Nobody ever freely admits that the age difference did their relationhip in.  Egos will not allow it most of the time.  Most of the time it is the peripheral things only associated with the age difference.  Kids or no kids.  "We grew apart."  "She wanted to pursue her career."  But usually, because this is a forum dominated by men, she was just a no good beatch.

All those things you call excuses can be the end of ANY relationship regardless of age.  I have yet to see ANYONE give concrete proof that age alone is the culprit.

[Misha]

Have had dates with women up to my age and even older.. none of them went further than a second date.. on my side there was either a lack of chemistry or they annoyed the hell out of me with their materialism and judgmental behavior or, they were just plain old boring..

This explains a lot.

[KenC]

All those things you call excuses can be the end of ANY relationship regardless of age.  I have yet to see ANYONE give concrete proof that age alone is the culprit.

2012,
Then let me be the first.

I am not trying to PROVE anything to you.  Go do whatever floats your boat.  Funny thing is my last post was written before I saw your last few posts and not in response to them.  But it could have been.
KenC

[Misha]

Silly boys reliving their youth. 

Or steadfastly trying to cling to the illusion of their youth  :evil:

[GQBlues]

First off, I'm not asking for people to share the reasons why their marriages failed. 

And yes, I've found a LOT of useful information from other men who have come before me and had the grace to share their experiences here. Isn't that, like, the purpose of this forum?

Why does this topic result in so many bunched panties? It's not like I'm asking people to discuss intimate details of their sex lives, this is basic stuff no different from what has been shared here each and every day.

If folks don't wish to share, it's their right, but it's very clear to me that even bringing up this issue in any context whatsoever makes a lot of guys feel a wee bit insecure.

Btw Groov...

Insecure? It's interesting to note that you expended more than one post saying why can't anyone engage in a civil discussion about this issue, yet when you were afforded an opportunity, your first response displayed the antics above.

Wonder no more...

[KenC]

GQ,
Of course any discussion is not going to help the married guys like you and Groov too much.  Your die is cast.  The only possible benefit would be a heads up on what may be coming your way.  How that helps, I don't really know.

The real value to these discussions are to the newbies just beginning their search.  The downside of an age gap marriage sure as hell is not going to be discussed on any Russian bride sites.    

Think about a guy that is new to this.  He has to be overwhelmed by looking at the profiles.  Does this smokinhotkova of 22 really want a man up to 60?  If we continue to point out the pitfalls of an age gap marriage, it may just adjust some newbies wish list a bit.
KenC

[groovlstk]

Nobody ever freely admits that the age difference did their relationhip in.  Egos will not allow it most of the time.  Most of the time it is the peripheral things only associated with the age difference.  Kids or no kids.  "We grew apart."  "She wanted to pursue her career."  But usually, because this is a forum dominated by men, she was just a no good beatch.
KenC

I agree, Ken. And what you wrote was pretty much my take on TG's post earlier today:

Personally, and I hope I don't ruffle too many feathers with this post, but I have to wonder if age gap isn't a cop out for some.   Oh, my relationship didn 't work out so it must have been the age gap.  I have a feeling that a fair number of the age gap train wrecks are really other problems in the relationship and people want to blame age gap rather than take in introspective look at their own shortcomings.

I have not been around the boards as much as most of the experienced guys here, but it's extraordinarily rare that someone admits that an age gap is a problem. TG, can you point to an example or two?

From what I've observed, it's completely the opposite: most guys are savvy enough to assign part of the blame to themselves and cop to a few shortcomings. Usually these shortcomings are are related to their behavior or attitude, meddlesome friends and relatives, or finances - but never, ever because of their age gap.

[JR]

Q: What is the primary reason a marriage fails?
A: Because it should not have happened in the first place.

Q: Cut out the BS and why do men go to the FSU? (Warning: this is a generalization)
A: To find a younger and or prettier woman than he could otherwise attract.

It seems to me that marriages fail because of one of two reasons.
1. People are incapable of recognizing the red flags prior to walking down the aisle.
2. People are unwilling to see the red flags prior to walking down the aisle.

More than anything else you are saddled with the character of the person you marry. For the most part a person's basic character traits will have been firmly established by the age of twelve. You are not going to change them and they most likely won't change along the way, at least not at the fundamental levels.

You hear it all the time "She changed." My ass she did! She simply took the mask off. Unfortunately you weren't clever enough, trained in the methods of perceiving it, delusional or your dick was too hard to take notice before you got sucked in.

(NOTICE): The above statements are directed at absolutely NO ONE ! ! !

Now for age gaps

"It's just a number." That is an absolutely true statement. It is also absolutely true that it has a direct and inverse relationsip to the expiration date of your marriage. The larger the number the sooner the expiration date arrives. Hopefully she will wipe the last bit of drool off your smile as you breath your last because she screwed you to death.
But if she wants to go to the disco every night while your idea of a good time is sitting on a donut, wiping Preparation H on your ass, eating prunes and chasing it with Geritol....you might want to open your eyes to that, that's all I'm saying.

[KenC]

I agree, Ken. And what you wrote was pretty much my take on TG's post earlier today:

I have not been around the boards as much as most of the experienced guys here, but it's extraordinarily rare that someone admits that an age gap is a problem. TG, can you point to an example or two?

From what I've observed, it's completely the opposite: most guys are savvy enough to assign part of the blame to themselves and cop to a few shortcomings. Usually these shortcomings are are related to their behavior or attitude, meddlesome friends and relatives, or finances - but never, ever because of their age gap.

Groov,
Your right, Turbo has it ass backward (again).

Let me change your "never ever" to except KenC.  Our breakup was soley due to our difference in age.  As much as we loved each other and as strong as our relationship was, the difference in our ages eroded it all over time.  In fact we may still love each other now, but know we cannot overcome the age difference.
KenC

[Misha]

You hear it all the time "She changed." My ass she did! She simply took the mask off.

Or perhaps, the guy's rose colored glasses fell off?

Very good post by the way IMHO.

[Admin]

You guys make me wish we had constructed the survey a bit differently, but we didn't. We 'kind of' get close to some aspects of the question about why x-cultural marriages fail (ref: http://www.goodwife.com/survey/xcultural_p19.html), but are not on-point with a question of 'age gap' per se.

I wonder if that is really the issue. For example, Ken - to say your marriage failed due to age gap - while that may be so at a macro level, would it not also be true that you could decompose that into more tangible disconnects? Children, for example?

So maybe the issue is, simply, what does it mean to pronounce that; "Age Gap Marriages are Destined for Failure" ? Why? On what, more tangible, basis?

In reviewing the above-referenced survey, I think I can see "age gap" *potentially* reflected in "Family Goals" which is the 2nd leading cause for divorce reported by both genders. "Age gap" may also be reflected in several other of the causal factors - but it is, unfortunately, a matter of interpretation.

Offered FWIW

- Dan

[Doll]

This reasoning overlooks one thing. If I were a GCW, who would I target? Yes, I might look at young attractive men, but I would realize that I would have a great deal of competition. Rather, I would seek out the oldest and the most naive gentleman out there. I would look for the man twenty, nay thirty, years older than me spouting off about how he believes that RW are more traditional and family oriented than that God-awful AW. I would look for a man willing to rationalize every one of my caprices as "cultural" and who truly did believe that RW are not interested in a good looking man  evil grin I would woo him with kind words about how RW prefer older men, and seeing if he will fall for my insistence that all RW will insist that a man be generous, with me of course defining "greedy" as not buying every toy and trinket that I spot....

Misha,
 

[Doll]

Q: Cut out the BS and why do men go to the FSU? (Warning: this is a generalization)
A: To find a younger and or prettier woman than he could otherwise attract.

[KenC]

I wonder if that is really the issue. For example, Ken - to say your marriage failed due to age gap - while that may be so at a macro level, would it not also be true that you could decompose that into more tangible disconnects? Children, for example?

Dan,
OK let's take the children issue.  I love kids.  Desperately wanted them.  Have 2 great adult kids now and love them to death.  My son paid me the highest compliment on a recent visit to MI a month ago.  He told me he had the perfect childhood and he knew that I was largly responsible for it.  But that was 30 years ago!

Lena claimed never to want to have children when we married.  I knew that she might change her mind down the road and she did.  But it took her ten years to change it.  Maybe at 46, I could have had my mind changed, but not at 56.  This is an age difference issue in our case.  Neither of us is wrong, just at a different stage of life due to our ages.
KenC