A woman of your age

[Sculpto]

Groov,
Your right, Turbo has it ass backward (again).

Let me change your "never ever" to except KenC.  Our breakup was soley due to our difference in age.  As much as we loved each other and as strong as our relationship was, the difference in our ages eroded it all over time.  In fact we may still love each other now, but know we cannot overcome the age difference.
KenC

Ken.. I don't buy it.  I think you are avoiding facing the real issues and using age gap as an excuse.  If you loved each other so much you would have found ways to overcome the problems.  Sorry, I hope that doesn't offend, but, the making of excuses can go both ways.. it was everything but the age gap.. it was nothing but the age gap.

[Sculpto]

So maybe the issue is, simply, what does it mean to pronounce that; "Age Gap Marriages are Destined for Failure" ? Why? On what, more tangible, basis?

I am singling out this quote Dan and my reply might not have anything to do with your intention.. but..

Marriage is destined to failure.  Those that do not fail are the exceptions.  Marriage as an institution is barely even relevant anymore.

Why is it so difficult for you guys to see that? 

[Sculpto]

Dan, I can only speak for myself, but I never commented that age gap marriages are destined to fail. I would, in effect, be predicting the demise of my own marriage.

My statement was simply that a big age gap is bound to cause issues somewhere down the road. I would LOVE for someone to refute that, but no one has.

Groov I dont think anyone disputes that.  I certainly dont.  But it is a risk I am willing to take.  So, maybe thats what it really comes down to.. the level of risk aversion versus the potential rewards.

I think a younger person will more easily adapt to the life and culture changes, so I see a pretty large benefit at the beginning.  After that it is really up to the man to be able to grow and adapt to the inevitable changes that will occur in his lady. 

[Turboguy]

Good posts Sculpto.  (I liked the Sculpto name much better than the new one by the way but no big deal)

I always felt that one of the plusses for a younger woman would be that she could adapt much easier.  I think that was a good point to mention.   I can't think that a 45 or 50 year old woman moving to the USA would want to go back to school to learn a new career.   When VWRW went to ESL classes as I recall, there was a young lady and her mother who attended the classes.   The young lady's English was pretty good, the mother spoke hardly a word of English.   The mother had lived in the USA for 10 years.   I think the same situation would exist with an older FSU women who came to the USA to marry.   She is going to be very dependent, adapt with far more difficulty and will not really attain the fluency in English that a younger woman would. 

Frankly as much as we hash around age difference I think something that can be far more troubling with a marriage is when she is older and has a child in the early teens or so that comes along.    When I was in the searching stage I met a few with one or more teen age children who would be a real plus if anything serious had happened but I met quite a few whose child would have made a very difficult life for quite a while as they grew up.   One of the other plusses of younger women is they don't usually have teen aged children although I did date a 27 year old AW with a 14 year old briefly once.

[groovlstk]

I refute it.

Issues don't occur just down the road;  IMO they occur sooner as well as later.  

The issues represent a valid test of the relationship.  When  issues become apparent a committed, compatible couple will resolve them productively.  Frequently some accommodation is necessary.  Tell me what relationship (marriage, business, children) does not require some accommodation.  

Gator, that is not a refutation, it's semantics. Sooner, later, whenever and wherever it becomes an issue, it's still an issue.

And yes, I completely, 100% agree that all marriages require accomodation, and that an age gap is just one more element in the mix. However, it is a unique issue because there's no reversing it. Most of the usual problems people have (finances, language, goals, understanding, etc.) - all of these, at least in theory, can be changed. But if you are 15 years older than your wife, like me, you will still be 15 years older next decade. There's no changing it.

[Turboguy]

Marriage is destined to failure.  Those that do not fail are the exceptions.  Marriage as an institution is barely even relevant anymore.
 

It is sort of an interesting phenomina that the AM will date AW forever without a thought of marriage and go to the FSU and propose after a few days together.   I guess we must all be nuts or something. :selfharm:

[groovlstk]

I will just add a comment that VWRW and I have talked about this and we both think that is great.   She loves the idea that if I ever do decide to retire she can spend her days working and I can stay home and play Mr. Mom.   She can come home from a hard day at the office to a nice home cooked meal and a clean house.   Heck, if I ever do decide to retire I will probably be so old that my bones would creak so bad trying to swing a golf club that it would disturb the other golfers so I might as well stay home vacuuming and watching soap operas.

TG, I know you are joking, but you've actually just shown the first concrete example of how couples deal with this issue: through humor. My wife hasn't worked in almost 8 months and she constantly frets about not contributing to our finances. I always tell her that one day when I retire I will be the one who gets to sleep in and walk around our neighborhood cursing at children and dogs (she doesn't do this, currently. But I'm working on it). I suspect that like us, you and VWRW know there's an underlying truth to the joke and that it also serves as a subtle reinforcement of the notion that things will not always be like they are today.

It's shared experience like this that keeps me active here.

[Misha]

what does it explain Misha.. that I don't like shallow materialistic people who can not be trusted or taken seriously???  

Yes, you will say that there were many young twenty year-old women that you could date locally, but I won't buy it. You simiply looked farther afield when the local pool of women you could realistically date dried up.

Oh, I should have also mentioned that a solid 80% of women my age that I know that ARE attractive and ARE NOT shallow materialistic shrews are involved with men at least ten years younger than them (two are with guys in their mid 20s) and most of them live a polyamorous lifestyle to boot.

You like the power imbalance I take it. The young women in their early twenties are young, idealistic, looking to find their way in the world. Some will actually look up to older men. The problem is that they all grow older and they will sooner-or-later rightfully expect to be treated as equals. In other words, they will all become "shrews"  :evil:

Not marriage material in any case.  Some pretty cool friends though.  The other 20% are at least once divorced with kids which gives them two strikes that wouldn't be acceptable to me.

I am curious as to why a divorced woman with children would not be acceptable to you. Wouldn't this contradict your pretension of being so very open-minded an open to all lifestyles?

[Misha]

It is sort of an interesting phenomina that the AM will date AW forever without a thought of marriage and go to the FSU and propose after a few days together.   I guess we must all be nuts or something. :selfharm:

If the local hot babes were willing to marry us after a few days together, I wager this discussion forum would not exist as we would all have married the "girl next door"  :evil:

[Gator]

Gator, that is not a refutation, it's semantics. Sooner, later, whenever and wherever it becomes an issue, it's still an issue.

Yes, but you are missing my point perhaps.  That post came while watching baseball and helping a 12-yo with math, so no elaboration.  

I am saying, without knowing you, that you and your wife have already experienced some issues that probably have some roots in your age gap.  Scott says the same:

Someone commented that I didn't see what was coming and was blindsided.  That is not entirely true.  I saw it but chose to ignore it and hope it would go away.  KenC says the same thing.  The issues were evident but carefully avoided until it was no longer possible.

Groov, think about all the little issues that you and your wife have faced.  I can not think there are many because both of you are in the same stage - you are were DINKs enjoying the Big Apple together.  Personality wise, the two of you also seem mutually independent yet supportive based on the little that I read here.  And I would guess communication is good if not excellent.  

Sounds marvelous. Surely you have had some issues, however.  What was the basis of the issues?  Cultural differences?  Age differences?  Or just individual differences?  I am sure the fact that your wife has not worked in 8 months is stressful and that can make other issues come to the surface.

More important, how did you deal with these issues?  My guess (without knowing you) is that the two of you discussed them in a reasonable fashion and resolved them.  It takes a compatible and committed couple to do that (love is part of commitment).  From my own experience, resolving disputes productively strengthens the relationship.  

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

So grasshopper, sleep well at night - your age gap marriage is doing fine.
 

[groovlstk]

I get the feeling that those with experience in age-gap/inter-generational marriages are generally the first that attempt to deter those actively seeking marriage with a much younger partner..  I wonder why...  well.. I know why but very few want to listen.

BC, I picked up on this a long time ago, and it's always been a source of unease to me.

[Gator]

Let’s look at the most common reasons for failure of a marriage and see how the age gap applies:

Scott,

No one has commented on your analysis, yet I find it to be a substantive and intelligent accounting of age gap problems.  Lurkers should read it.  Those in a new age gap relationship should read it.

I could add more, but I am out of here.  Have a good day!

[Turboguy]

If the local hot babes were willing to marry us after a few days together, I wager this discussion forum would not exist as we would all have married the "girl next door"  :evil:

Personally, I think there is a lot more involved than the fact that RW are "hot".   Some of the young AW I dated were fairly hot but had other shortcomings.  (Vickie comes to my mind.  She was 24 years younger and definately beautiful and hot but totally nuts as well.)   Some of the RW I met or dated and seriously considered were far from hot but had other qualities that made them very interesting to me.   I am sure some of the inital allure of a RW is their beauty but I do think the real plusses are far more the inner qualities.   To me, my wife is very beautiful but I was far more attracted to the inner things.   She is the most wonderful woman I ever met in my life and that is what makes her special to me.   The hot or beautiful part is just secondary and sure, it is a nice plus but I would love her even if she wasn't.   She is just a really special person.

[Admin]

Scott,

No one has commented on your analysis, yet I find it to be a substantive and intelligent accounting of age gap problems.  Lurkers should read it.  Those in a new age gap relationship should read it.

I could add more, but I am out of here.  Have a good day!

I agree - Scott's was a good post. Others too, notably GQBlues, made excellent contributions. For myself, I gravitate toward quantitative analysis and prefer to see tangible, better if measurable, elements. When someone comes on to vilify age-gap marriages - it is a lightning rod issue, not unlike the various debates about what constitutes a "sex tourist." By that I mean, we first need to DEFINE it. BC floated a multi-part definition that has merit. Once we can congeal a definition, we are better able to associate characteristics with those definitions in context - otherwise, we have people conjuring up a 30+ year difference when addressing a question, with others conjuring an 8 year difference, with expected widely disparate results. For example, where differences in 'normal' health may be significantly different for 'normal' people in their 30's versus their 50's (20+ years difference), those issues would be significantly fewer if examining 'normal' people that are 5 years apart. If the age-gap marriage is determined to be at the 10+ year point, this one issue is not likely to be worlds apart - but it is, if we look at 30+ years (again, if we look at norms).

Soooo.... a bunch of good points in posts made upthread. Maybe we could/should run a poll to determine consensus on definition for an "Age-Gap Marriage"?

After settling a definition, GQ and Scott (and others) both provided a seedbed of various characteristics that might be examined to see which apply, and to what extent. I see this as NOT a Boolean (yes/no) result - but rather, a graded rating for each characteristic.

If anyone wants to work with me on setting up something more 'formal' we can dust-off our survey script and use that. It was designed to gather data an exactly these sorts of issues - as a thought.

- Dan

[Misha]

To me, my wife is very beautiful but I was far more attracted to the inner things.

Sorry Turbo, you seem like a really nice guy, but I will never buy it. Yes, you may have taken a decade to find a woman who had both inner and outer beauty, but you will never convince me that the quest for outer beauty was not the primary motivator. I agree with Doll's point that men seek youth and beauty in this venture.

[BC]

No one has commented on your analysis, yet I find it to be a substantive and intelligent accounting of age gap problems.  Lurkers should read it.  Those in a new age gap relationship should read it.

It's called Ŕ la carte response.. If a post simply makes too much sense, ignore and find another you can find fault with 

[myrddin]

By that I mean, we first need to DEFINE it. BC floated a multi-part definition that has merit.

Soooo.... a bunch of good points in posts made upthread. Maybe we could/should run a poll to determine consensus on definition for an "Age-Gap Marriage"?

If anyone wants to work with me on setting up something more 'formal' we can dust-off our survey script and use that. It was designed to gather data an exactly these sorts of issues - as a thought.

- Dan

I doubt I'm the only lurker who'd be very interested in that.   I've got a 9.7 year difference (neither of us has children and we certainly seem to be in the same life stage), so I need to know if that would be an "age gap marriage" or not! 

From my experience in country and spending time on this board, it doesn't seem like much of an "age gap", though I've heard a comment or two from AW. 

I realize this topic could be seen as an unkillable weed in the garden of RW/AM discussions, and some people may be tired of it (or get too personal), but I have to say there's some good thought-food here. 

[Turboguy]

Sorry Turbo, you seem like a really nice guy, but I will never buy it. Yes, you may have taken a decade to find a woman who had both inner and outer beauty, but you will never convince me that the quest for outer beauty was not the primary motivator. I agree with Doll's point that men seek youth and beauty in this venture.

I guess it is a free world and you are welcome to think whatever you want.   My first K-1 fiancee was also very pretty.  I had tickets to go meet her before I even knew what she looked like or even how old she was.   She finally sent me photos so I would know who to look for at the airport.   The first I knew her age was when she gave me the info for the K-1 visa.   Ok, I know that sounds like I am dumber than those who think I am dumb thought I was but she seemed so wonderful on the first visit that her age didn't matter to me one way or the other.  My thoughts before my first visit to my first fiancee were that if it didn't work out I would concentrate my efforts on a gal from Donetsk who was built like a pencil and not all that attractive but a really nice person.  Looks are a minor part of what makes a good wife.   You can have the most beautiful wife in the world and be very miserable with her. 

[Misha]

Looks are a minor part of what makes a good wife. 

I agree with you in principle, but it is always fascinating to note that as men profess to not have been concerned with looks, somehow (with only a few exceptions) marry very attractive women much younger than they  :evil: Why is it that men do not want to admit that they valued beauty?

[groovlstk]

I doubt I'm the only lurker who'd be very interested in that.   I've got a 9.7 year difference (neither of us has children and we certainly seem to be in the same life stage), so I need to know if that would be an "age gap marriage" or not! 

From my experience in country and spending time on this board, it doesn't seem like much of an "age gap", though I've heard a comment or two from AW.

That's a really good question, and there are also factors that make it hard to pin down where the numerical threshold should be defined.

I have only my own experience to draw upon, but I'd say there's a point in your relationship where you may or may not assume (and I hate to use this term) a fatherly role in addition to lover and husband. Sometimes this is temporary and changes after she feels comfortable in her new life. In our case it didn't change and even if there are things about the age gap that are not so pleasant, I really love having this role.

[tim 360]

There are some excellent posts for the newbie or anyone to read on this thread on both sides of the age gap issue.  Scotts post is excellent and a good primer in relationships and some pitfalls.  But there is more to it than just "age gap" I think.  

Marriage to anyone is a gamble.  Divorce rates are not diminishing and with most divorces I don't believe that "age gap" was the big issue.  It seems that the odds of winning at blackjack are better than getting married to anyone.  A WM can marry a girl his exact same age and be promptly divorced within 6 months or a year.  It would not be uncommon and nobody would blink an eye.  I think an age gap (15 years or greater) can present some problems for sure, but I think there are other factors at work which cause divorces.  I don't think a large age gap helps but I don't think it is the sole demon for marriages ending in divorce...there are plently of other reasons.  The # 1 reason is that people are people all with plenty of imperfections.

[KenC]

Let me just say that even if agreement is not expressed here in writing, it doesn't mean I am not sitting here shaking my head in agreement.  Silence does not necessarily equate disagreement or a dismissal of the ideas posted.

I like GQ's categories of identified problem areas, but wonder if it is not a list to be addressed in another thread as this one is focused on age gap marriages?

Scott,
GREAT post.  It expresses my thoughts almost exactly.

BC,
I do agree with your definitions of how to identify the age spreads.

Dan,
A poll would seem like an appropriate method to define the categories of age differential.  However, that would just make it easier to communicate with others here (not such a bad idea either) but only addresses semantics and the number of years.  It would not address my concept of life stages.  A 40 yo RW with a teenage or older child would be in a similar stage of life to a 55 yo AM with raised children.  Whereas a 20 yo single, never been married, childless RW would be at a different stage of life than a 35 yo divorced with children AM.  Same age difference (15 years) but different life stages.

Sculpto/2012,
I am simply not going to sidetrack this thread with debates about what you believe to be true or untrue about my past relationship with Lena.  Believe whatever you want as your beliefs are not relevant.
KenC

[KenC]

I have only my own experience to draw upon, but I'd say there's a point in your relationship where you may or may not assume (and I hate to use this term) a fatherly role in addition to lover and husband. Sometimes this is temporary and changes after she feels comfortable in her new life. In our case it didn't change and even if there are things about the age gap that are not so pleasant, I really love having this role.

Groov,
Why not we address ALL the peccadilloes in age gap marriages?  Being a father figure is definitely one of them.  Although it is a natural role for the man to take with a foreign wife no matter what the age difference is.

When a foreign woman arrives, her man is her life line.  She is solely dependent upon him to guide her through her adaptation into a different culture, language and life system.  It is only natural for him to assume a fatherly role as she is very child like in her new environment.  The woman also accepts his fatherly role as he is her sole source of learning everything required in her move to America.  At least in the beginning.

We men go through most of the same stages with our RW as we have with our own children.  Teaching them the ins & outs of life in America, how to drive and to some degree how to even communicate.  Father figure, teacher or mentor, call it what you will, but it is real and it can create problems too.  Show me a married guy here that claims not to ever had a hint of frustration in teaching all that is necessary to his RW and I'll show you a lier!

Not that it is all bad either.  Many, like you and I, enjoy the role of teacher/mentor, but there is also a flip side to this too.  When to turn off the teacher/mentor role and treat your wife as an equal.  I know I had to consciously stop advising or explaining things because after a while it can be viewed as condescending.  It is a tricky thing and sometimes a slippery slope.  

How this relates to age gap marriages is that the larger the age difference, the greater the chance for either of the couple to "get stuck" into the roles.
KenC

[GQBlues]

Prolly ought to start with a definition of what constitutes an "age-gap marriage."

Should we draw the datum at 15+ years - or 10+ years - or 20+ years? Most would probably agree with 20+ years qualifying. And many would probably conclude that 10 years would not. So then it becomes determination of where we draw the line.

My vote (for simplicity) would be 15+ years qualifies as an "age-gap marriage." Others may cast votes for a different demarcation point.

Once THAT is defined, I think the characteristics you came up with look reasonable - though some will struggle with definitions of a few of them.

Dan-

Just my take, I think it should start at 10-12 years. To me 15 years can be distinguish as a boiling point. Anything beyond that boiling point is directly relative to the accelarated rate of evaporization. The greater the age difference, the faster rate of evaporization.

So going back to 10-12 years, 212 degrees being the boiling point, I think 10-12 will be akin to some point where the water starts to get uncomfortably 'hot'. I think it should start prior to a boiling/volatile point. So, that's 10-12 years for me.

The problem is your still only coming up with numbers based on the people who are in the forum. Is this a random sample of people who marry women younger than them? I doubt it, you have to consider the logical possibility that it may only be a cross section of people whose marriages did not work.

remie...

I fully understand your point and concern. But you also must remember we are trying to apply science that revolves something that can be better classified as emotive. Science, is after all, a study that tries or attempts to try to explain certain facets/aspects of our environment / surroundings.

This is like that 10 blindfolded men standing in a circle in a very large room. Each one understand there's something massive in the middle. When asked to take a step forward and touch the object, each one came up with a description different than the other, but they are all describing parts of the same elephant. One or two description may not be enough to describe the elephant, but the collection of 10 different descriptions could possibly succeed in the describing Dumbo, the silly elephant. Maybe (?). Everyone had a hand in it but no one can put a finger on it.

I have a reasonable suspicion that based to this site's member count that the actual number of married couples with (un)reasonable age differences is higher than most probably is aware of. Will it be enough to structure a respectable study? My feeling with that is yes - for this site at least. It can only perpetually grow along with the membership. They are out there but likely does not want to step forward since up until now the lynch mob hasn't yet found an objective reason to disperse.

We are trying to map out the different trails we are all in hoping that somehow we can collectively find the path that leads directly to that smoke from a distant fire. Without it, everyone simply runs around in circle with no particular place to go.

[krimster]

I'd like to make an analogy to driving.  There are plenty of dangerous road conditions that make driving more hazardous, age of vehicle for example.  However, not everyone will have an accident as a result of poor conditions.  What's being left out of the discussion presented here, is the equivalent of driving skill.  I think all of us who are married can have "dangerous road conditions" from time to time.  Yet we're still on the road driving, as opposed to those who "crashed and burned".  To continue the analogy, maybe you didn't pay attention to the road, or drive defensively, or you just ran out of gas.  Instead of shifting the blame to "dangerous road conditions", from what I can see, the accidents presented here all have the hallmark of "driver negligence".  Sorry, if it sounds overly critical or if my analogy sounds a bit "goofy"