A woman of your age

[GQBlues]

Of course I am disappointed that it didn't last forever.  FYI, Lena feels the same.  We are still surprisingly close (something else I never thought possible post divorce) and in some unusual form still love each other (again a mutual feeling).  Not as lovers or husband and wife, but as two people that shared 10 years of their life together and still have tremendous mutual respect for one another.

Ken-

That was exactly my point. Success is donned by a different suit for all of us. What do you feel more of, that your relationship can be termed a 'failure' simpy because you're no longer together; or was it 'successful' because you've both become a huge, satisfying part of each other's lives?

[Turboguy]

BC, as far as any advice I got on my first K-1 to be honest I can't recall much of it one way or the other.  I seem to remember most of the advice being about the age difference which was a non factor in the K-1 going wrong.  I did pick up a lot of wonderful information on RWD that was very helpful.  I don't recall any bad advice, humm, except for maybe one about the interview.   

There were lots of the story with her that I never talked about on RWD.  I am sure if I had I would have been told to run as fast as I could.  Luda's good side was wonderful.  She had one of the nicest personalities you could ever want but she was a pretty mixed up person.   Jet's wife had a long talk with her and said after she was very strange and I would be smart to run.  My friend Alla in Moscow also talked to her and said about the same.   I was well aware that there was a high risk of failure and I went into that with a good knowledge of the good parts of her and a fair inkling of the problems.  The more I got to know her  the more the problems made it impossible for any chance of success.  Personally I doubt that she can ever end up in a happy marriage with anyone. 

[Daveman]

... I doubt that she can ever end up in a happy marriage with anyone.  

This is an important point to take into consideration. There are many in this world who are absolutely incapable of building and/or continuing a long term relationship.  They sabotage themselves as well as their partners and inevitably the relationship.  There are lots of these types in this pursuit on both sides.  That's one intangible we can't really factor into the "age gap" question because of the little information available or presented.  To me, both KenC and ScottIn are about two of the most stand up guys around and both have my most sincere and deep respect.  That being said, most of us only know them from their participation here, so how do we really know that the age gap was a problem and not either they or their ex's did not fall into this possible "incompatible with relationships" category?

Certainly not suggesting that is the case, but just mentioning it as one of those "unknown factors" as this most excellent discussion progresses.

edit: that sounded like I'm "calling out" ken and Scott to prove something.. absolutely not the case, just using as an example of what we take on faith... what i was trying to get at is that MOST of these relationships have age gaps... MANY people are incompatible with relationships, or each other... is there a way to factor this in/out so that we are truly dealing with age gap issues and not psychological issues relating to relations.

[KenC]

Ken-

That was exactly my point. Success is donned by a different suit for all of us. What do you feel more of, that your relationship can be termed a 'failure' simply because you're no longer together; or was it 'successful' because you've both become a huge, satisfying part of each other's lives?

GQ,
I know it was what you meant; I was just confirming my agreement.  

Let me answer your question this way.  When Lena and I separated the usual "taking of sides" began to occur amongst of friends and family.  Both of us had to put a stop to it very quickly.  Neither of us would tolerate anyone disparaging the other.  I went through some nasty debates here on this forum during the time and Lena would put anyone in their place if they said anything demeaning me.

Neither Lena or I would deny that our time together was anything short of a fairy tale.  Well, except for the "happily ever after."  In our many many hours of rational intelligent and thoughtful conversation on the subject, we both concluded it was the age difference, or more correctly the different stage of life that ended our marriage but not our mutual respect or love for each other.  Like any marriages there was give and take on both sides, but this was one that could not be compromised in the end.

Now, let's get back to age gap marriages.
KenC

[Misha]

The age-gap debate threads always remind me of someone trying to trying to convince a die hard smoker that they should quit. They will always bring up their friend's grandmother who smoked 3 packs a day and lived to the age of 105. Then, they will always say there is no way of proving for certain that smoking really is responsible for lung cancer and all the rest. The lung cancer could have been causes by so many other things ... 

[groovlstk]

If my mortality hit us suddenly, there will be at least one thing I can deal with with ease - my wife's ability to look after herself on her own.

Thank you, GQ. This may seem academic to you (and it probably should for me too), but ensuring your wife is taken care of is in and of itself a coping mechanism for dealing with the age difference. She has the tools to continue a stable life while you rest easier knowing if something happens, she'll be OK.

This is the sort of thing I was hoping guys would share - even Sculpto's contingency plan should his ardor wane due to old age may have merit for some.

[GQBlues]

Nah, don't mention it, Groov, but you're welcome anyway.

This is what we all get when the discussion is objective and productive. We get whatever things we feel touches upon our own situation - and this is in large part because of what you started.

I will add, relative to Ken's situation; from the very beginning my wife had expressed freezing some of my little buddies. This may sound strange or funny to many, that's OK as I did too not too long ago. Now that our lives seem to be settling down a scale since she's technically out of (the big) school, she's been speaking about having rugrats these days. We had taken the first step and saw our doctor very recently. This will be an added 'security' for us in addition to going a la naturale. We just have one more step to make which we have been aggressively pursuing these days - and that is our first home together (it's a biyatch out there right now - don't let anyone tell you otherwise). After that, were open to flood the gates and release the little fellas. 

But like I said, the clinical part of this is a secure contingency in case I lose my way home one day. My wife tells me she'll feel so much better about it. According to her, It's her way to make sure *I* will always be around no matter what happens.

[I/O]

Just a passing thought. Age gap marriages, genuine ones that is, lets example perhaps Ken, Dan, Groov, Turbo, Gator, myself just to name a few, bring out the best and worst of humanity in some ways for the reasons being discussed latterly in this thread. I asked the question up thread and the answer is Yes, there is something new in here. Areas I haven't seen properly addressed before in such threads.

Back to my point. The worst, selfish old men and let's be honest with ourselves fellas, there is a deal of selfishness attached to all of this age gap thing. Yeah, sure, we didn't go looking for younger hottie but we sure as hell didn't run away when she batted her eyelids at us now did we? Like it or not, there is at least some element of 2 head thinking on the older guys part in the age gap situation, at least at some point...........And, none of us are exactly ashamed to be seen with our pretty younger wife in public. Call me shallow? Look in a mirror in your private time and tell me you are different? BS..!! We're men.

The best. Again the caveat is "genuine marriage", the younger woman entering this type of relationship must ultimately be among the greatest of all givers. Attractive as all the women married to the men in the afore mentioned group (those who I have seen and I have no doubt about those I haven't) are, they ALL, could have snagged any young hot stud they set their cap at, yet they chose not to. They have chosen to spend time with men they will never realistically grow old with. Dan wrote quite brilliantly of his feelings on the matter which echo mine and could be summarised with the word guilt to some extent at times. Whilst all of these women can be total PITA's because of their natural determination and this may cloud their "giver" nature within the hum drum of day to day domestic life, they are, I submit, among the greatest of all givers.......

Herein lies one of the challenges of an age gap marriage. A giver and a taker should equal a balance? Uh Uh, it doesn't work that way, can you zig when she zags? I submit most imagine they can but........................

[KenC]

Yet another deep and thought provoking post!  Thanks.

Just a passing thought. Age gap marriages, genuine ones that is, lets example perhaps Ken, Dan, Groov, Turbo, Gator, myself just to name a few, bring out the best and worst of humanity in some ways for the reasons being discussed latterly in this thread. I asked the question up thread and the answer is Yes, there is something new in here. Areas I haven't seen properly addressed before in such threads.

Back to my point. The worst, selfish old men and let's be honest with ourselves fellas, there is a deal of selfishness attached to all of this age gap thing. Yeah, sure, we didn't go looking for younger hottie but we sure as hell didn't run away when she batted her eyelids at us now did we? Like it or not, there is at least some element of 2 head thinking on the older guys part in the age gap situation, at least at some point...........And, none of us are exactly ashamed to be seen with our pretty younger wife in public. Call me shallow? Look in a mirror in your private time and tell me you are different? BS..!! We're men.

I cannot deny this in any way, but might add to it.  As I sit and think about the women involved in as you term a "genuine" age gap marriage (and specifically the ones mentioned here and adding others such as GQ whom I've met) are a lot more than just a pretty face too.  These are all "top shelf women" not just some bubble headed bimbos.  To a man, credit us with not falling for JUST a pretty young thang.

The best. Again the caveat is "genuine marriage", the younger woman entering this type of relationship must ultimately be among the greatest of all givers. Attractive as all the women married to the men in the afore mentioned group (those who I have seen and I have no doubt about those I haven't) are, they ALL, could have snagged any young hot stud they set their cap at, yet they chose not to. They have chosen to spend time with men they will never realistically grow old with. Dan wrote quite brilliantly of his feelings on the matter which echo mine and could be summarised with the word guilt to some extent at times. Whilst all of these women can be total PITA's because of their natural determination and this may cloud their "giver" nature within the hum drum of day to day domestic life, they are, I submit, among the greatest of all givers.......

  Whilst I appreciate your point of view is valid here, again I think there is more to it than what you state.  Again my thoughts come about due to the high quality of the women involved here, but could it be that these women sincerely wanted and saw more value in their age gap relationships that they could not with those "hot young studs?"  To a one, these are beautiful but deep thinking women that consciously traded off the benefits of a younger man for the advantages that came with older ones.  I don't know if that is "giving" as much as it is trading off.  And please understand I am not speaking of them looking for "sugar daddies" even though financial stability is part of the overall equation too.

Herein lies one of the challenges of an age gap marriage. A giver and a taker should equal a balance? Uh Uh, it doesn't work that way, can you zig when she zags? I submit most imagine they can but........................

Again, I agree that there is a VERY delicate balance to these relationships, not necessarily along the titles of "giver" or "taker" but all revolving around the conscious choices both sides have made to be in a marriage with a large age difference.
KenC

[I/O]

Ken: There is much I didn't specifically "state" above because within the context of the level of discussion here, most can add those bits (and a whole lot more) themselves. IMO, the quality or intellect of the women involved is a given and as such I didn't bother to lengthen an already slightly abstract post by emphasising the point. APART from (over and above if you like) being bright etc, they are young, attractive etc....................The point to men is that so many sit here BSing how it was not her looks or youth which attracted him. Like everyone else, sure, it frightened me at the point things became serious but it sure as hell was a part of what attracted me at one point also and to preach otherwise is entirely misleading.

What I am seeing in this thread which adds a "new" element is a degree of candor (with the exception of one) from most which I haven't seen before in age gap debates. I think these threads have value when people are honest with themselves (and others) instead of these high moral ground arguments that it wasn't her looks or it wasn't his financial stability which attracted me. These aspects are very much a part of initial attraction and to advise the Freshman correctly, we are duty bound to admit and address the point. Denial of these things is highly dangerous to both writer and reader. 

[Sculpto]

I am seeing two sides to the debate evolving here.

One side, led by Turbo, has a positive view and considers age gap as not being a problem and is enjoying and embracing the joy he is currently living.  The other side has a negative view, even from guys involved in age gap marriages who are worrying, it appears obsessively, about an unknown future they can not control.

I think this reflects a difference in mentality about life.  Some people embrace life and all its challenges, positive and negative, with an attitude of joy and happiness regardless of the circumstances, while others are, at risk of exaggeration, cowering in the corner waiting for something bad to happen. 

The former is someone who is young regardless of how many years they have been on the planet.  The later, is already old. 

In that context, some will not experience any problems in their age difference, while others will.

About 14 weeks ago I was driving across an intersection I know very well and have seen accidents occur in.  I was exceptionally careful and yet someone speeding never even saw her red light and broadsided me.  Fortunately my injuries were not terribly serious, more of an inconvenience, but, the incident reminded me that our time on this planet is fleeting and spending time worrying about a future that is beyond my control is not worth worrying about.  It reinforced my desire to live in the moment and appreciate what I have right now.  I think some of you guys ought to consider what your priorities really are and perhaps consider an adjustment in your views.  JMO

[Vaughn]

2012, don't for a minute delude yourself into believing those who recognize and acknowledge
the risks are wallowing in fear. Turbo's stated indifference regarding the gap suits your own
attitude quite well - and that's fine.

It ain't all black & white, pal. Where's that open-mindedness you claim to possess?

[KenC]

I am seeing two sides to the debate evolving here.

One side, led by Turbo, has a positive view and considers age gap as not being a problem and is enjoying and embracing the joy he is currently living.  The other side has a negative view, even from guys involved in age gap marriages who are worrying, it appears obsessively, about an unknown future they can not control.

Actually there is a third party involved, one that desperately twists the facts to suit his own denial.

I know no one has a greater opinion of your viewpoints than yourself, but you are full of it here.  "Cowering in the corner"?  Everyone listed in the above posts has more experience and knowledgable regarding age gap marriages than you.  Dude, you are the one waffling on whether to jump in or not.  The "corner" is all yours, Bub.  Only a fool would not consider the obstacles ahead, or recognise the potential problems in their current or past relationships.
KenC
(Custard's last words: "What Indians? I don't see any friggen Indians.")

[Vaughn]

What I'd like to know, KenC, is - how is one able to nurture a relationship of any kind
while sporting such opaque blinders? To be frank, I was that fool at about age nineteen
when I finally admitted to Dad I probably needed a swift kick in the ass to realize I alone was
responsible for consequences of decisions made in ignorance. Then again, there'll always be
women who are attracted to student pilots.

It baffles me, it really does.

[I/O]

........................ FOOLS RUSH IN WHERE ANGELS FEAR TO TREAD.....................

[BC]

BC, I will post the first part of your question about PG first and I am busily replacing some ballasts in the lights in my office so I am posting when I take breaks.  I will answer the second part on my next break.

I didn't quote the rest as it really was TMI. Dwelling on the bad and not the overwhelming good responses PG received isn't very constructive here 4 sure.

A simple 'Yeah, he received a lot of good advice, but did not want to listen' would have fully sufficed.

[BC]

BC, as far as any advice I got on my first K-1 to be honest I can't recall much of it one way or the other.  I seem to remember most of the advice being about the age difference which was a non factor in the K-1 going wrong.  I did pick up a lot of wonderful information on RWD that was very helpful.  I don't recall any bad advice, humm, except for maybe one about the interview.    

There were lots of the story with her that I never talked about on RWD.  I am sure if I had I would have been told to run as fast as I could.  Luda's good side was wonderful.  She had one of the nicest personalities you could ever want but she was a pretty mixed up person.   Jet's wife had a long talk with her and said after she was very strange and I would be smart to run.  My friend Alla in Moscow also talked to her and said about the same.   I was well aware that there was a high risk of failure and I went into that with a good knowledge of the good parts of her and a fair inkling of the problems.  The more I got to know her  the more the problems made it impossible for any chance of success.  Personally I doubt that she can ever end up in a happy marriage with anyone.  

TG,

As with PG's experience, it really sounds like an 'against all odds' proposal..  Would you consider (or do you still consider) that the optimum approach for someone popping in here to check out the waters?  Or is it a sign of the enormous power that endorphin/adrenalin cocktail bears to warp our mind?

Were you and PG in a rational state of mind?.. I'll be the first to admit that I was affected by these drugs, but not to the point of an OD.. 

You two really did fight like cats and dogs for these 'ambivalent' women.. Maybe they were the type that just could not say "No".

IIRC I have heard the term "RW Junkie" thrown around before..

[Turboguy]

I didn't quote the rest as it really was TMI. Dwelling on the bad and not the overwhelming good responses PG received isn't very constructive here 4 sure.

A simple 'Yeah, he received a lot of good advice, but did not want to listen' would have fully sufficed.

Well BC you asked the question.   If I had felt he received a lot of good advice I would have said that.  What was the good advice?  That he should forget her because she was trailer trash and a low classed hair dresser or that he was too low classed and poor as a Bus Driver making $ 55,000 a year to be able to afford her?   I don't recall the age gap even being discussed and don't recall anything any more extreme than many others have.   The big issue with him was does it make sense to get engaged to a woman you have never kissed.   Most everyone felt it was a stupid move and I can't argue with that.  As much as I don't like IMBRA it might have given RWD folks who wanted to give good advice some additional arguing points.  He felt it was worth the gamble to bring her over.   That's what he did.  I don't think he is the only one who ever brought a "fiancee(?)" here without a firm commitment to marry and even with IMBRA probably won't be the last.

Personally, I think the only way he would have found peace in his own mind was to do what he did. 

[Turboguy]

TG,

As with PG's experience, it really sounds like an 'against all odds' proposal..  Would you consider (or do you still consider) that the optimum approach for someone popping in here to check out the waters?  Or is it a sign of the enormous power that endorphin/adrenalin cocktail bears to warp our mind?

Were you and PG in a rational state of mind?.. I'll be the first to admit that I was affected by these drugs, but not to the point of an OD.. 

You two really did fight like cats and dogs for these 'ambivalent' women.. Maybe they were the type that just could not say "No".

Going back to PG for a second the only negative thing that I can recall him saying was that they had not kissed.  I think he did what he had to do to be at peace with himself with his feelings for Larisa. 

Against all odds?  In my case knowing my first fiancee as well as I learned to later, it probably was.  Even though I was visiting her for 10 days every 6-8 weeks I think it took about half the time she was here for me to really see enough of her to start to understand who she really was.   The first visit was as perfect as any could be.   I did start to see red flags, concerns and began to see the real Ludmila on the second visit.

My mind was rational enough.  Maybe like PG, it was something I had to see through to be at peace with myself.   I just did all I could to make it work and to make her happy, but no one ever is going to make her happy.

[I/O]

Please TG, don't feed the fire on the PG saga. I came into RWD right on the tail end of arguably the worst thread in history. It was plain sad to read through it all. PG was (maybe is) a lonely guy with the biggest heart and zero street smarts. He just tried to make something out of nothing and is perhaps a case study for how not to do this thing but other than that, shouldn't be dragged in here again IMO.

[BC]

Well BC you asked the question.   If I had felt he received a lot of good advice I would have said that.  What was the good advice?  That he should forget her because she was trailer trash and a low classed hair dresser or that he was too low classed and poor as a Bus Driver making $ 55,000 a year to be able to afford her?  

The question I really asked was:

How do you rate the 'board consensus' provided for your and PG's unsuccessful K1's?.. (not for result, but advice provided)

Not the actions of a few individuals long gone.

This post of his was interesting.. looks like he wanted to dish it out but had a bit of a hard time later holding out the plate himself:

fairbro,
You give an account of your dealings with a RW.
That account tells us you put up with a lot of s**t
from women, which means you have no standards
or very low standards, -no real judgment criteria
for choosing a wife. You're like a guy wearing a
'kick me!' sign on his back. And now you feel you've
been kicked?  You invite it. (at least on a subconscious level)
You really do.

His story is interesting though and I'll leave the judgment calls to those that followed his saga or those interested in reviewing them.  

They start here: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=profile;u=134;sa=showPosts;start=1350

He felt it was worth the gamble to bring her over.   That's what he did.  I don't think he is the only one who ever brought a "fiancee(?)" here without a firm commitment to marry and even with IMBRA probably won't be the last.

Personally, I think the only way he would have found peace in his own mind was to do what he did.  

And just a few posts back you mention something like he never really got over it.. so much for peace of mind.

The reason I bring all this up is that it really illustrates the warped frame of mind when dealing with this whole RW 'thing', that is just exacerbated by factors such as age differences, sexiness, thinness etc.  Two reasonably sane men that caught the RW 'itch', and subsequently went absolutely nuts (literally) trying to prove they could pull it off at whatever cost and misery.

Couple that with justifications of 'Pot Luck Dinner', 'Gamble', 'Ain't the only one', 'Just a numbers game' and a bunch of other phrases to defend and even propagate such silliness as an acceptable course..

I'll leave it at that.

[elliott]

Wow, this thread really took off.  It had 3 pages the last I saw it.

Yes, I normally tie them and leave in the basement untill they agree to have more sex.

Is there a sign-up sheet for that...   I'll start building a basement...

[Zhena]

While going through the topic,I could see the different opinions based on the personal experience only....of course. And that experience is different.
As somebody said here,the problem due age gap may occur or may not. It is a lottery....as everything else in our life-what we have 100% guarantee on?..
From my own observing,not the age gap itself is the problem,but the psychological compatibility comes first. There are many other small factors ,of course,too. But all depends what those two individuals are and how they will interact. A difference in experience/life luggage?..But its not an age issue on my opinion. The young person may be very experienced and the old person may be very naive and helpless in life. Also,I dont see why the experience difference should be a problem-arent we teach each other? Arent we share our experiences?
The first thing you should do when you looking for someone special...thats make sure your level of intelligence is fairly equal so you can understand each other and be on the same wave length.Then,with some portion of patience(which is necessary),you can get over most of problems.

Also,if you re pretty much older,have an active lifestyle and watch your health as much as yiu can

-that will

[Zhena]

that will help alot,so you dont feel yourself a grandfather of your own wife. Of course,anyone can get sick and sometimes we cant do anything about-but often we can prevent that by a certain lifestyle.
Then...if you realise,that your money became the main reason to attract the young beauty to you(only be honest with yourself)-be ready to provide those money constantly,otherwise you know what will happen.
And last but not least....choose the mature enough girl,doesnt matter what age she is.The immature one,sometimes seems to be easier to deal with cos she gets under your influence-but then she can get under anyone elses influence,someone who will say your husband is sucks,who you married?!-and then it leads to disaster...
Could say more,but enough for now...just some opinion to the topic.

[Turboguy]

That was a really good post Zhena.  There was a lot of good thoughts there.  I do think people can have very different levels of maturity.  I think that can have a lot of effect on any relationship and even more on one with an age gap.   

I think you made a good point too that if you feel like a grandparent to your wife then that is not good.  I tend to post a little more in age gap threads but in my day to day life with VWRW, I rarely think about the age difference.   I am to busy leading a happy married life, working my tail off and helping her with her studies and there is nothing to think about anyway when it comes to the age difference. 

I will agree that you need to take good care of yourself.   Anyone can get sick, even kids and young people.   The odds of sickness are better (or worse) if you are older.   The inverse applies however to taking care of your health, watching your weight, getting some exercise, avoiding bad habits.  Of course a RW can be good for your health anyway.