western men of above average income??

[Misha]

My wife was doing 18k$/year and she owns her flat in the center of Kiev near a park and a metro station. Can you imagine to own your flat near the center of any western capital with the same salary ?

I would wager that your average Ukrainian with the same salary living in Kiev would not be able to afford to buy her apartment if they had to buy it without the help of parents or others.

[Makkin]

  My dear Russian friend here in America talks with me over tea on many occasions and she is very unhappy.


    Her husband makes a solid six figures in income and she has everything she needs. She works a part-time job for fun and extra spending money but she is nothing more than property to her husband.
    She wants out of the relationship but sadly for her she has no educational credentials that would afford her anything better than the lowest pay in the job market. She is a realist in that she knows  that she must stay and wait for another man of younger age with the means to maintain her lifestyle. Sadly she does not realize her age and looks are counting down on her and her options are limited.

    Her husband is 65 and she is 40 and she has been married for over 10 years. She sleeps in a seperate room and she tolerates the drinking her husbands partakes in on a daily basis. She has the reasons to leave but she knows the finacial realities of all things.

    Her husband will probably drink himself out of this world and they have no children together. Her husband will leave most if not all of his assets to his four children and she is aware of this. It's just a case of wanting the lifestyle she has and not losing it.

   I'm thinking of one day building a duplex on some extra land I have and putting a roof over her head until she gets it together financially after this nightmare of a marriage ends. We are friends only and that will never change but I want her to feel safe as she has no family in Russia anymore and I want her to have some dignity in life if the absurd does actually happen to her.


Makkin

   

[I/O]

That's interesting. Could you plese elaborate for me RW why having worthwile assets and no debts is preferred to having a good income with debts?

Lily: Others have answered for USA and those answers, particularly Gators' are pretty much the same for my country, although we haven't seen the housing melt down of other areas and we have seen more conservative lending practices. The short answers to your question from my perspective are 1) "disposable" or usable income vs total income. With large debt, much of the income will be absorbed meeting repayments. 2) I didn't suggest the guy on the lower income had no income. 3) IMO most importantly, he has serious assets and equity he can realise on (Sell) if he falls on hard times.

There is, IMO far too many (Unfortunately the recent crisis hasn't cleaned it all up) paper castles out there. Guys flashing large assets with ridiculous underlying debt they cannot repay, can barely service the interest if that on the loans and are wholly reliant on a stable or increasing market value together with stable or decreasing borrowing costs. Neither of those look reliably likely any time soon. More simply put, "Blowhards".

I don't agree with the guys who say that maximum income is reached at 45 or thereabouts. I've seen many, perhaps most I have actual knowledge of increase their income significantly after 45 and rest assured I certainly intend on that pattern . Furthermore, I've noticed recently, during the so called crisis, many of the higher income earners being the first to take a clip in salary or even in some cases lose their position or badly established business model completely, therefore, high salary is not the whole answer IMO and experience.

In your picture, his debts exceed his annual salary 5 times. My guess would be that this huge debt might result from mortgage, he acquired a house. Hopefully his salary will grow in next years. If he wisely refinances his mortgage, in some years he may be debt free and with good asset. Additionally, his good salary probably means that he is a highly educated professional, probably an executive, which would in many cases undermine an interesting personality.

I think you mean underpin rather than undermine?

Gearing levels and cash flow issues play in here and they are a balance or need to be balanced. I've always worked on the basis you can't borrow your way out of trouble without a serious cost impact somewhere (World governments are betting massively right now that I am wrong) therefore as Gator touches, refinancing may not be a positive step but may in fact be a defensive move. He may or may not be debt free later but I compared the here and now. The alternative has his asset base in place, in my example a very substantial asset base. Surely this is also an interesting person having demonstrated the ability to already put that together whilst the other is still unproven?

I am not against borrowing, particularly to accumulate quality assets. I have, do and will borrow for that very purpose myself but I am against gearing levels which force the borrower (they force themselves) to live on credit for day to day expenses. I can tell you and yes I have been there and done the unthinkable years back, living on a debit card is a whole helluva lot more comfortable than living on a credit card. Your $750K Asset / $500K debt / $100K / year guy is more likely to be doing the latter.

[Jumper]

this was on yahoo today,,
but outlines what IS average vs above avarage. USA income


http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/career-articles-money_in_the_bank_5_careers_for_60k_salaries-1027

[Daveman]

Lily: Others have answered for USA and those answers, particularly Gators' are pretty much the same for my country, although we haven't seen the housing melt down of other areas and we have seen more conservative lending practices. The short answers to your question from my perspective are 1) "disposable" or usable income vs total income. With large debt, much of the income will be absorbed meeting repayments. 2) I didn't suggest the guy on the lower income had no income. 3) IMO most importantly, he has serious assets and equity he can realise on (Sell) if he falls on hard times...

Excellent post I/O.

I would add only that the dream of a home actually being an "asset" is a fantasy of complete illusion, as are many non cash assets.  I own my home free and clear, however, the cost of that ownership, i.e., the cost of paying the extortion money to the government for the privilege of owning it, the cost of upkeep/maintenance makes it a blend of asset/liability at best.  Considering the burst of the housing market bubble recently I've lost a good chunk of imaginary equity (it doesn't exist unless you cash it out). 

Real estate has absolutely no value at all other than the arbitrary value applied to it on paper by the quite volatile and ever changing market patterns.  This can be said about virtually all "assets".   

The point I am getting at here is that asset values, for the most part, are entirely imaginary until the actual point when the asset is liquidated.  And then the true value must be calculated with all the expenses which went into it (a home for example -- mortgage interest, fees, maintenance, taxes, etc,) and the actual profit considered carefully.  Certainly some markets fare better than others and thus the "location, location, location" idiom. 

In this country, we tend to have "money on paper" while buying/borrowing/stealing a lifestyle.  VERY few actually live within their means (which is quite sad because if the ever alluring lifestyle was ignored for a period of about 5-10 years, it's amazing what could be accomplished on even a modest income).  It's the system of instant gratification.

Some RW (or AW) will happily bounce from sponsor to sponsor as the ebb and flow of this system plays out on an individual basis.  Or even more hilarious, will judge those making 40k a year as trailer trash while she has accomplished nothing more than a free education (yeah, let them have our system where an education costs a few hundred thousand bucks, and then run their greedy bullsh!t filled mouths), living in a dilapidated old urine scented building barely surviving from payday to payday (when/and sometimes if their employers decide to fork over the money).  That "judgmental" aspect really is truly hilarious.  Idiots on steroids.

Screw 'em, let those fools rot in hell and look for the ones who truly seek to be a partner in the process of building a life together.  Does she want to ride your ass to glory? or does she wish to get her hands dirty building a life with you? You can't buy a babe, you can only rent her for a while.  However, a free partner who freely gives herself to you and family just might hang around a bit longer.

[Gator]

Does she want to ride your ass to glory? or does she wish to get her hands dirty building a life with you?

I will make some sweeping statements containing my personal general opinions.  YMMV. 

‘Hell on earth’ would be marriage to a RW not lifting a finger yet demanding that her husband provide luxuries during an economic downturn.   Unyielding in arguments, ingratitude, cold shoulder, false pride, etc.  Yes, hell on earth.  I would say Rave Girl could easily be such a RW.

I imagine many such spoiled princesses are out there.  Buyer beware.  However, based on my experience of dating RW, I believe almost all would be willing to roll up their sleeves and somehow help if not contribute measurably to the family good.

I dated RW 27-47 yo, with all of the younger ones being a single mom.  Almost all had struggled through some difficult times.  This revealed their true mettle.  They survived by their own initiative and vigor, not by having their divorce attorney bash their ex-husband under the umbrella of American divorce laws slanted in their direction. 

IMO the struggles endured by the RW have given them a good work ethic.  I would not say a "Protestant work ethic"  simply because what I have experienced is low concern with saving and thriftiness only out of necessity.  Nevertheless, their intelligence and pragmatism in combination with this good work ethic will make them a superb partner for building a life (provided you don't do "bad man" things).

Some RW are more cautious about the future and hence will seek men who can provide financial stability, namely in the form of already having money or already making a handsome income in a stable line of work.  In most cases I don’t consider that a fault as much as a measure of their risk tolerance, especially if they have a young child.  Yet it could masque the spoiled princess who feels entitled to comforts and luxuries.  Buyer beware.

Again, YMMV.

[I/O]

Gator: Caveat Emptor is the phrase you are looking for and I have used it several times regarding this whole pursuit. Your comment regarding “R”ave Girl (Crap I laughed at that) is IMO slightly inaccurate. It appears she has associates or friends who’ve had a bad experience and she is embittered on their behalf. To this extent, I agree with some of what she puts forward and I don’t think it is coming from her own “princess” mentality.

Dave: At its most basic level in the most simplistic form, developing equity to hopefully the point of 100% equity in a home is a compulsory form of savings particularly for the younger ones. Despite the interest and other associated costs, I’ve seen fairly consistently the kids who tie a mortgage millstone around their necks and work at reducing it over time ultimately end up with more than those who do otherwise. Real estate is a long play for the most part.

I’ve joked we spend our youth slaving to gain assets and our retirement as a slave to them. 

[Blues Fairy]

I agree concerning real estate but what worries me is the property tax which is just obscene in some areas.  I believe it's in fact unconstitutional to tax property, especially since most of the money goes toward the (horrible) public school system with which I don't even want to deal, ever.   

[Gator]

I agree concerning real estate but what worries me is the property tax which is just obscene in some areas. 

If you add property tax, sales tax, municipal income tax, state income tax, and intangibles tax, it is indeed a heavy load.  And yet it is not enough as now seen in California. 

I believe it's in fact unconstitutional to tax property, especially since most of the money goes toward the (horrible) public school system with which I don't even want to deal, ever.   

How else would you expect the schools to be funded?  Most property owners care less about education, hence they lobby  against spending for education as a way to keep RE tax from becoming even larger. 

[Blues Fairy]

How else would you expect the schools to be funded?  Most property owners care less about education, hence they lobby  against spending for education as a way to keep RE tax from becoming even larger. 

Private schools, Gator.    BTW whatever happened to the tax break for those who send their kids there?

[Dave13]

Why should property owners pay for the schools if they have no children!   Some info:the State that ranks number 1 for State & Local Property Tax Collections FY 2007 is New Jersey at $ 2,485 per capita ( source U.S. Census Burear) of course the cost of Home owner insurance depends on the value of your home and location. You would need to compare these cost to the rate for renting a similar size home.

[Misha]

Why should property owners pay for the schools if they have no children!  

Well, the goal of public schools was to educate the population and have workers that could actually read and write. Sure, you could limit education to those who an afford it, but you risk having a country with a population that is largely illiterate and uneducated with an underclass that has not real future. Wouldn't help the United States stay competitive in the 21st century if they didn't provide (or at least try to provide) a basic education to all its citizens.

[Gator]

Private schools, Gator.    BTW whatever happened to the tax break for those who send their kids there?

Of course; however, the masses can not afford private schools. 

I sent both of my sons to private school and the tuition of $10,000 per year did hurt (even higher now).  Did you know that tuition even at this level only covers about 67% of the annual costs of operating a private school. 

That tax break was an interesting plan.  There was also the concept of using vouchers to attend the schools of your choice.  It never really got off the ground given the state of public revenues vs. public spending.

Public education is an issue more in need than healthcare, so I assume that it could be next on Obama's list.   :hairraising:

Obama is the shepherd I did not want.
He leadeth me beside still factories.
He restoreth my faith in the Republican Party.
He guideth me in the path of unemployment for his party's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the bread line,
I shall fear no hunger, for his bailouts are with me.
He has anointed my income with taxes.
My expenses runneth over.
Surely, poverty and hard living will follow me all the days of my life
And I will live in a mortgaged home forever.

[Dave13]

Alaska's dropout rate is double the US average, 38% of the 9th graders today will have no school diploma 10 years from now, just guess what amount the school district pays per child compared with the rest of the US.

[Blues Fairy]

Of course; however, the masses can not afford private schools. 

The masses cannot afford the teachers' union. 

With a tax break, more middle-class families could afford private schools and thus less kids would attend public schools thus reducing the need for public school funding.  But that would upset the union, and we cannot allow that, can we. 

[Dave13]

One reason some WM make above average wages is the UNION! 

[SANDRO43]

With a tax break, more middle-class families could afford private schools and thus less kids would attend public schools thus reducing the need for public school funding.  But that would upset the union, and we cannot allow that, can we.

BF, it really depends on how a government decides to use/distribute tax money, no ready-made recipes here .

Some years ago, it was decided that our Catholic schools, theretofore and since totally private, should receive education funds, too, on the grounds of equality ???.

In this year's budget, PUBLIC education funds for schools - from elementary to Uni - were heavily slashed because of the financial crisis. Our teachers' unions were powerless to oppose that, and it involved the dismissal of a LOT of teachers. I doubt that our overall population benefited from this, but the affluent who send their kids to private schools still do .

[I/O]

Obama is the shepherd I did not want.
He leadeth me beside still factories.
He restoreth my faith in the Republican Party.
He guideth me in the path of unemployment for his party's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the bread line,
I shall fear no hunger, for his bailouts are with me.
He has anointed my income with taxes.
My expenses runneth over.
Surely, poverty and hard living will follow me all the days of my life
And I will live in a mortgaged home forever.

[Blues Fairy]

BF, it really depends on how a government decides to use/distribute tax money, no ready-made recipes here .

I don't trust the government to use/distribute my tax money.  Public education now costs up to $25K per student (as per Washington Post) and look how well this money is spent. 

I doubt that our overall population benefited from this, but the affluent who send their kids to private schools still do .

So unfair!  Of course when the country's in a pickle, we must make everybody suffer, including the affluent and their children. 

[shakespear]

Why should property owners pay for the schools if they have no children!  

Because as a society, we have vested interest to make sure that the generations that follow are properly educated.  Remember they'll be running the world and making decisions on your behalf while you're in the twilight of your years. 

[shakespear]

One reason some WM make above average wages is the UNION! 

One reason the country is so screwed up today is the UNION and their demands for increased wages and benefits WITHOUT increased productivity.

[Boethius]

It has very little to do with unions.  All Canadian provinces have unionized teachers, and their pay and benefits are largely superior to that of their American counterparts.  Yet, Canada tests well in international standardized testing, and has done so, consistently, for as long as I can remember.

Here are the latests published results.  Scroll down to view the results in the three areas tested -

http://education.alberta.ca/department/news/2007/december/20071204.aspx

You will note that all those "evil socialist" countries score off the charts vis à vis the U.S.  Some of this may be because of (relatively) homogenous populations.  So, a better comparison to the US in this department is Canada, which is as relatively diverse, population wise and linguistically, as the US.

I think the difference is rooted in something else in US society.  Some of this may be poverty.  Some may be social inequity.  Some may be underfunding of public education.  Some may be the breakdown of family.  Or, it could be the fault of American feminists, which, I have learned since reading this forum, is the root cause of virtually every failure in US culture and society.

[Sculpto]

The thing I find the most interesting and sad about this stupid thread is as follows..

In the USA the people who are most likely to share the empty values expressed by Brave Girl are those who are collectively known by the slang term "ghetto".  This term is not a racial distinction, but a socio cultural one.  Education and family values aren't the issue, but rather, the overwhelming sense that material prosperity is the measure by which people are judged.  He who has more is therefore a better person.  It matters not how the "wealth" was gained, only that it exists.  Pimp = Oligarch.

The glorification of the "ghetto" mentality in certain parts of popular culture is more than likely something most people here are not well aware of.  Where I live this mentality mixes in with all the other insanity, but, is very evident in certain places.  For example.. there is a nightclub across the street from my studio.  During the day and evenings it is an upscale Italian restaurant catering to the internet engineers and other hipsters in the area.  Late at night on the weekends it turns into a club catering to ghetto people.  Observing the social dynamics that take place outside the club it is quite easy to comprehend the importance of material wealth and the overt display of such wealth.  Yet, strike up a conversation with any of these people and the spiritual emptiness is very evident.  No one smiles and there is gun violence on a regular basis.  The cops typically arrive just before closing time to supervise the chaos and try to keep these "people" form killing each other.

One block away is another club that caters to a more diverse demographic of artists and art appreciators that cut across many racial and socio economic barriers.  Here everyone is laughing, dressing down so NOT to attract attention should one happen to have a lot of money and people value creativity and talent above flashy cars and clothes.  The cops never have to supervise closing time and in the 12 years the club has existed there has never been even one incident of violence.

Those that are stating it takes a certain amount of money to go to the FSU and court a woman, marry her and bring her back to the US, are simply basing their assessment on flawed information.  There exists a fledgling backpackers scene in Russia.  There are hostels in Moscow where one can stay, quite comfortably, for $15 a night.. right on Arbat.  Especially for someone younger, or young in spirit, there are plenty of opportunities and avenues to go over, meet people, and potentially fall in love.  It is simply a matter of perspective and planning and stepping out of the MOB box.  Comments like that made by BG and most recently our resident monger, Shakespear, simply show a very narrow world view that has more in common with US ghetto culture than it does with the majority demographic, in either country.  Unfortunately for everyone of higher mind, the ghetto mentality is growing at a rapid rate.

[Sculpto]

Some women also conscientiously brush their teeth and what dental work has to be done can usually be spread over a number of years.

Sheesh.. if money is really that tight.. a trip to Russia that includes dental work would PAY for the whole trip compared to what it would cost to have the work done in the States if uninsured. (outside Moscow or Piter)  I have been going to the dentist in Mexico for two decades.  What I save on not paying the dental insurance here covers the cost of those trips.  When I needed a root canal and crown.. man.. I got a month in Mex for what I saved doing it here.

Its not how much you make but how you spend it.  Some people are purely consumers and others know how to work things in their favor.

[boaterguy]

The sad part about this whole tax thing weighs heavy on my mind. What to do? I've paid my dues,semi-retired,and debt free(except 2nd house). The Republicans used trickle-down economics(I think it worked). The Democrats use trickle down taxation....IE eventually property taxes will make it impossible for many of us to hold on to what we worked so hard for. Redistribute the wealth ya know.