Odessa and AnastasiaDate. A Risky Proposition.

[neo]

I am pretty dismayed reading this report.

And pretty dismayed at most of the responses.

Maybe I missed it, but I saw nowhere mention of the harm that men like Neo cause to everyone when they spend so foolishly.

i think i probably did mention that we were not dealing with corrupting someone who was not there to be corrupted....

if i was behaving like this to a sweet family girl from a provincial city you would have a point.

But we all knew from day 1 what the game was with AW, 22 year old smokinghotakova's and the whole deal in Odessa.

if you go into the mindset that you are somehow perpetrating further crimes against other men you have missed the whole point this whole situation was already there to be played out.

its an optimistic view to think if i stop doing drugs (i don't) then drug dealers will go out of business. because everyone else will still do drugs.

if i didn't go there and do what i did then obviously another bunch of guys will. its human nature for men to be competetive, its why i stated that its a dangerous business to get into a spending arms race to win a girl since there is always another joe with much deeper pockets or more committed to beating you.

threeships,

intimacy on the first date; i think if you are the sort of guy who is led around by his sex drive, this is a good as metric as any. I did not sleep with my wife for 3 months - she still married me and broke me in two on our honeymoon, i would hardly say a girl who does not put out on a first date is not into you - it just means she is not the town bike and has enough self respect to make sure you are not just after a sniff of her knickers (which your post proves you clearly are).

such a attitude would never win a girl like this, she is hyper pretty and knows most guys are after her for one thing. being the guy that wants something more is the only way to surprise her.

Delusional: you clearly did not read most of what i wrote, i got the results i expected so i could hardly be accused of being delusional, a few posts a go i was accused of being too cynical and being too hard on her (in the context of a 22 year old girl who probably did not know better)

Desperate: if i was desperate i would have tried my hand with a dozen or more girls to see what worked. this was a targeted strike against a girl of choice, if i was desperate i would have clung on for dear life - the fact i decided to cut my losses is precisely because i am NOT desperate to win this girls attention at all costs. there will be another girl, another time. this didn't work out. no point in crying when the pony has run off.

what did we gain from it: i had a bloody good time - win lose or draw. I got a good vacation. don't know what you got. who cares?

wrenching heartache: hardly. i am sad about it. you can't make a good omelette without breaking at least a few eggs. i will still be out chasing stewardesses next week. i never get in so deep i cannot get out clean.

beaten down: who? jesus, it was a failed dating expedition - AJ is right - this isn't a ABC marriage yellow brick road. you go there. you meet a strange girl. you connect or you don't connect, you date little or you date a lot, you get action you don't get action you get on well or you drift apart, you fall wildly in love or you just stay friends or even hate each other. all things are possible in the diversity of human relationships. everyone who goes there expecting every encounter to turn into a happy ever after fairytale is a fool. I dated 100's of girls and i can count on the one hand the girls i really connected with after a few dates. its just dating. get over yourself. its not the end of the world.

dignity: i don't think there is anything dignified about exchanging bodily fluids with a complete stranger you have no emotional connection to, its usually quite a cheap sordid and unromantic affair and the morning after is far from dignified. dignity is a bed fellow of respect. fantastic first sex with a girl you know well and have a deep emotional connection too trumps a first date fumble any day of the week. done plenty of both. dignity for me is choosing when to exit and not being lead around by my pants.

money spent on her: mine to spend. why would spending it on another girl be any different. i didn't know it was a bad investment until i knew it was a bad investment.it could have been the deal of a lifetime. thats why i gamble.

sincere genuine attraction at first meeting: you weren't there. you do not know what she thought or felt. she could have thought i was the best thing on the planet and my subsequent behaviour screwed it up. i hated my ex for the first 4 dates but something compelled me to get past that and know her better, its only when i saw the personality behind the superficial did i start to like her.

same happened in reverse, met a girl who thought i was satans own devil child once, 3 months later she was crazy about me.

'its a really simple formula' for keyboard romeo's with limited experience of the complexities of womens psyche

sorry to say it but there IS NOTHING simple about dating women, if it was that simple we would all have Jessica Simpson's on our arm. its the very fact women are so different and unpredictable that makes the whole endeavour so fraught with issues. I do not know anyone who ever had a simple 123 boy meets girl romance without some turbulence unless they were just plain lucky.

as for the criticism of ruining it for the rest of you chaps.

i did point it out - 1: paddle your own canoes - you should choose a girl within your means (this is common sense) 2: it was clearly pointed out this girl was never going to be a cheap prospect - by definition she was high maintenance, thats the value she puts on herself. i am no different since i expect a high quality partner also just measured in different values - each to their own.

i didn't go out and spoil some innocent young girl here, she was a Odessa agency Model in a city full of high rolling bentley pilots. she doesnt need a WM to live the high life there are plenty of local guys prepared to spend big coin for such a prized trophy girl.

the fact you don't get this point suggests you have never travelled much in a major city like Odessa or Kiev. the guys here outspend us WM 10 to 1 and they dig deep for the right arm furniture so i have done nothing here 10 other guys would be prepared to do for her also.

in this respect we were well matched and not 'spoiling another couple' we were both quite materialistic status led creatures so its not like i am turning some meek little spendthrift into J-Lo.

And honestly speaking, me going for the burn with one girl is hardly spoiling your chances, even AJ knows i don't go through girls quickly enough to diminish the pool size. you kind of contradicted yourself in a way because if you believed what you wrote about sincere decent girls and first date whizzbang chemistry then it does not matter i spent on her if she believed the way you did she would forgoe the lot of it.

unfortunately i realise in the real world with certain girls 'more is always more'.

edit to add: but thank you for sharing your opposing views. this is not intended to be a neo fan club so all critics are always welcome  :evil:

[neo]

Hey Neo,  That was an epic post.  Thanks for filling in the blanks and the updates.  I hope things work out for the best for you.  I think your experiment answered most of your questions although not all would agree with your techinque--I think it worked for you.  If you had imposed a shopping $ limit you would not really know what she would do with unlimited credit.  You've always had some remarkable threads and this may be the most so.  Does she think you are as deadly serious as you write here?  Do you think she trusts you at all? 

Hi Tim,

Thanks and i think its widely agreed (and myself included) that my methods work for me because I just see this as dating. the best result i was hoping to achieve was probably a casual dating thing, escalating into a steady relationship and maybe 3-4 years courtship until she grew up enough with possible marriage material at 25-6.

I agree I think the way i did things worked for me because i set out to answer questions, that if the girl was serious would not have upset the applecart too badly but would have thrown up some early issues without too many bedtime tears from either side.

Does she think I am deadly serious as here:

difficult to answer, i think I tried to temper my casual approach with enough reinforced views that I was a serious guy and not a player, but we are in a starting position of a girl who presumes all wealthy guys are players and innocent until proven guilty.

do i think she trusts me at all: no or at least not yet. certainly not enough. in future who knows, sometimes it can take time for the shoe to drop

My feeling is she is just exactly what you would expect, a 22 year old pretty girl with a immature developed sense of perception of peoples motives to her. she likes all the things young girls like, dancing, music, clothes and shiny things. she has yet to mature emotionally enough to be decisive about the kind of man she wants in her life and the kind of deal she wants from him so she is just playing the field and fishing for what she can get.

someone had this right a good few posts ago - trust is accumulated - the only way you would build trust with a girl like this is by moving to odessa and being a part of her day in day out life. only over a number of months and knowing you when she realised you didn't do anything crazy or bad to her would she trust you - expecting to fly in and her to trust you when pretty much most exposure she has had to WM has been based on BS is a really long odds situation.

ironically this is a sword with 2 edges since i went through this palava because i didn't know her any better than she knew me and did not trust her for exactly the reasons she did not trust me.

i know i am serious. maybe she knows she is serious - problem is what do you in order to trust the other - if you know them by actions its easy to make a judgement based on their behaviour not words to you, but generally 22 year old girls don't have enough emotional miles under their belt to be a good judge of character therefore it takes a long time for them to figure out who the heros and villains are.

there were some other things involved that prevented a natural trust curve developing but that is better left for another story.

the thing i will say is as per my above post, going in like a dog on heat is generally not the best way to earn trust in a city where many WM are just seen as lying married sex tourists. the only thing that earns you trust with the cynics is sincerity and you need a bucketload to even dent the cynical view caused by the vast majority of WM behaviour here not to mention the fantasist letter writers.

most girls think their behaviour is justified because the pretty poor actions of the majority of AW client base.

[dbneeley]

Neo--

Now that you are beginning to value true companionship with a lady who can give you the kids and solid home life you crave, perhaps it is also time to realize that it is unlikely to happen with most girls of her age. It's all well and good to assume you can "train" one--but with your travel schedule that seems a bit unrealistic to me.

In my experience, most people gain a tremendous amount of depth without losing a youthful outlook as they are in their late 20s to early 30s. Many of the ladies in that age range, too, are quite gorgeous. Plus, they know what they want in life--and if you find one with compatible values, a mature woman can be in the truest sense a "helpmeet".

The younger ones are far more easily seduced by the "easy money" blandishments of an AWeb. On the other hand, for some it may simply be the equivalent of a young man's "sowing his wild oats" phase of life. Neither of those seem to me to be prime marriage material in any event.

David

[neo]

DB

you are spot on.

I did this really as its my first 'bachelor' vacation time post marriage and a chance to get back into dating (however convoluted) so as i stated i came in with low expectations, while the disapointment of how things panned out smarted a bit it was not unexpected and caught early enough that there was no emotional deep involvement to cause any lasting damage. playing with hot 22 year olds is fun but unpredictable.

For sure if i had been completely serious and not on a exploratory jaunt i would not be playing in this part of the garden, i certainly would not be in Odessa. my all time favourite long term love is a platonic friend who is actually the same age as me (mid 30's) and i find every bit as phsyically attractive - unfortunately she is a confirmed bachelorette

For guys who still don't get the message about AW hotties and Odessa.

I am sat in an apartment above a swanky nightclub in the centre of town. its friday night and a whole raft of Range Rover Sports, Porsche Cayennes and Mercs is turning up with monied young UA studmuffins with high quality agency talent dripping off their arms dressed to the nines.

One of the biggest reasons the agency girls never take dates her with WM on friday and saturday nights is they are out tearing up the town with their UA arm candy same as western college girls are and there is a plentiful array of young studs to boost their egos with.

These are not desperate girls who cannot get a date back home, they do the dating thing with WM to get nice designer gifts, pocket money to spend on themselves and then they get what they want (a casual good looking BF) right here in the city to take them out to party, thats why they wont take their WM to a club or bar on a Friday Night because they are not going to put the word out to the local UA college jocks that this is what they do.

this is also why the over 25's are the only safe bet for serious LTR - the only one thing WM can offer them that UA guys can't is a ticket out the country to the west, the UA guys are playboys of grand order who can constantly trade up to the next younger model at their whim, any guy who is a looker (and there are plenty) with daddys range rover can score any of these 10/10 girls week in week out.

Then when they hit 25+ and the dates get poor quality or dry up she hangs up her party shoes and looks for a WM with a good life to settle down and benefit from.

This is why the first terp told me (and advised me) that i would be successful because i work internationally i had the chance to base out of odessa. she told me to buy a top flight apartment here which would be 1/3 the cost of a NYC pad, buy a white bentley or range rover and these high ranking agency girls would fall at my feet.

It was a very clear message - if you live local, have the same status as the UA guys and can take them out to party on a Friday and Saturday night with the right ride, wardrobe credentials you are in business - you can forgoe the agencies and just go and hit the clubs and meet hot girls and choose the one you want, take her home in your RR or bentley and do as you will without any promises.

she told me straight that most of the agency girls have NO intention of leaving Odessa - life here is good, but if you come here with the right toys you can have fun.

[SFandEE]

These are not desperate girls who cannot get a date back home, they do the dating thing with WM to get nice designer gifts, pocket money to spend on themselves and then they get what they want (a casual good looking BF) right here in the city to take them out to party, thats why they wont take their WM to a club or bar on a Friday Night because they are not going to put the word out to the local UA college jocks that this is what they do.

This would indicate shame or duplicity.  Or maybe something else----

Do RWD posters know of women like this that made good wives when older?

[Misha]

These are not desperate girls who cannot get a date back home, they do the dating thing with WM to get nice designer gifts, pocket money to spend on themselves and then they get what they want (a casual good looking BF) right here in the city to take them out to party...

I don't quite understand the purpose of "dating" such women  :noidea:

[Rubicon]

This would indicate shame or duplicity.  Or maybe something else----

Do RWD posters know of women like this that made good wives when older?

previous poster Kievstar wrote that he met his wife thru Aweb, and that prior to meeting him she had been dating a wealthy Russian who apparently would not commit to her.  Kievstar said several times that he was very happy with his wife.  I think we can only properly assume that she was playing this game before meeting him.

[Misha]

previous poster Kievstar wrote that he met his wife thru Aweb, and that prior to meeting him she had been dating a wealthy Russian who apparently would not commit to her.  Kievstar said several times that he was very happy with his wife.  I think we can only properly assume that she was playing this game before meeting him.

Doesn't Kievstar also say that he is worth in the millions 

[Rubicon]

Doesn't Kievstar also say that he is worth in the millions 

he did write that he had a net worth of at least one million, as far as I can remember.  don't know if he said millionS.

[Rubicon]

You shouldn't take the guy so seriously, after all, he was the bright spark that posted this;

 

hopefully you do realize that that was a joke.  I have no problem dating a woman and taking her to nice restaurants if I feel she is sincere, and than hopefully she will ask me over to her apartment for a home cooked meal when she feels the time is appropriate.

[Misha]

he did write that he had a net worth of at least one million, as far as I can remember.  don't know if he said millionS.

I believe he said that after his divorce with his ex-wife, they split everything in half and she got 5 million  :noidea:

[Rubicon]

I believe he said that after his divorce with his ex-wife, they split everything in half and she got 5 million  :noidea:

In other words, to get an Aweb girl, you better have a net worth of at least 2.5 million dollars!! 
And you should probably be within 10 years of her age.  I just had a laugh when I went on Aweb to look around during Neo's adventure, and I found a 23 year old smokin hot Odessa girl who listed her maximum age as 90!!!!!

I can just imagine some guy 70 years old showing up thinking that he is plenty young enough for her, but of course she is out of town or deathly ill in the hospital and cannot see him.   

[Misha]

In other words, to get an Aweb girl, you better have a net worth of at least 2.5 million dollars!! 

Either that or net worth and income gets inflated exponentially on forums  :evil:

[Vincenzo]

Yeah, what's the purpose of this dating?

You can order a model looking hooker in Odessa, and a few times, for the money you've spent on that girl without any real action.

You can point at any half-naked Anastasia's girl and she will meet you for some money. But your chances of ever seeing her naked are slim.

[Faux Pas]

neo
This has been a very interesting TR and experiment for you. Thanks for posting it. You went into this eyes wide open and seemingly prepared for any outcome yet, I detect or maybe sense you are wounded. It appears to me you have been completely truthful as to the details but, I detect something under the surface you are maybe even still holding out that your PD may come around to your line of thought?

You've done a helluva lot of analyzing and attempting to wrap things up in nice pretty boxes as to the whys and how for's everything turned out as it has. One thing you haven't really dug into is perhaps for your PD and the terp it is simply "business as usual"?

Set aside what you feel you detected from this lady. Her "innocence" in the game and her history (real or imagined) of her UA boyfriend. Then her being the profitable front and face of the agency, along with the terp and even your long history of experience the end result is, you were still a mark. It doesn't really matter that you knew the game going in does it? At the end of the day you paid by the hour for dates, bought some lavish meals and a grand of cosmetics. Does her innocent looking puppy dog eyes give you some solice and help you digest that even with your experience, the bottom line is it is business as usual and you were just another mark?

[neo]

Yeah, what's the purpose of this dating?

You can order a model looking hooker in Odessa, and a few times, for the money you've spent on that girl without any real action.

You can point at any half-naked Anastasia's girl and she will meet you for some money. But your chances of ever seeing her naked are slim.

quite a alpha male response, and makes me look quite tame in comparison.

Everyone knows that London is the capital of High Class Escorts. they run from 150 USD a hour right through to 10 grand for a minor celebrity. Almost all of them are hot EE girls. I could get a night of GFE sex in a london hotel room for 1000 USD if this was the intent, all from the comfort of filling in a request form on the internet.

some guys just do not get it - if your entire world revolves round just getting action, then ironically you do more to propogate the justification for girls behaviour like this.

i made it clear i was not after sex. if all i cared about was seeing my girl naked was say i will give you 10,000 USD to come to my room and take your clothes off. if she said no offered 20. its a stupid ideal. if you want to see naked girls go to a strip bar and spend 10 dollars and you will get your boots filled.

that was never my gameplan. if i want to buy sex i know where to shop.

[neo]

neo
This has been a very interesting TR and experiment for you. Thanks for posting it. You went into this eyes wide open and seemingly prepared for any outcome yet, I detect or maybe sense you are wounded. It appears to me you have been completely truthful as to the details but, I detect something under the surface you are maybe even still holding out that your PD may come around to your line of thought?

You've done a helluva lot of analyzing and attempting to wrap things up in nice pretty boxes as to the whys and how for's everything turned out as it has. One thing you haven't really dug into is perhaps for your PD and the terp it is simply "business as usual"?

Set aside what you feel you detected from this lady. Her "innocence" in the game and her history (real or imagined) of her UA boyfriend. Then her being the profitable front and face of the agency, along with the terp and even your long history of experience the end result is, you were still a mark. It doesn't really matter that you knew the game going in does it? At the end of the day you paid by the hour for dates, bought some lavish meals and a grand of cosmetics. Does her innocent looking puppy dog eyes give you some solice and help you digest that even with your experience, the bottom line is it is business as usual and you were just another mark?

FP, i think it was clear (and is clear right to the bitter end) i am cynical enough at this to treat the default position of both her and the TR as 'business as usual' - of course i was just another mark. neither of them know me so thats the way they will treat me as their default position.

there is a missing piece of the puzzle which i choose to disclose to a long standing known board member who understands the position but for various reasons i have deemed it prudent to leave out the TR for now that sheds a new dynamic on the forces at play.

My entire thinking going in was that i would enter as a mark, probably exit as a mark and there you go. if you look at the challenge perspective it was to try and do whatever i could to try and secure turning the situation around from being a mark to a hunter. this is no easy task and clearly i am not arrogant enough (from my admissions of failure) i can get it right for any certainty. it takes a special set of circumstances.

you have to remember i am not a innocent guy in this, i am very much the black sheep of the RWD fraternity turned (rather still turning) to the light of good and reason, a few years ago i would have had a very different approach and very different consequences (none of them good). wisdom tells you victory is not victory at any price, controlling the car crash is actually more important than preventing it when you go in full well the crash is going to happen.

Since i am such a black sheep in my women CV i cannot pass any judgement on a PD. since i am by default the yin to their yang in that i consistently targeted for many years pro-daters for my amusement. I was not cold-hearted enough to enjoy my dating challenges by breaking innocent young girls hearts and misleading others and therefore spoiling the party for the next chap, the girls i have traditionally consorted with have always been broken in the first place and therefore i would not expect any of you right thinking guys to be messing with them from day 1. you should of course have the wiles to spot a player or a sincere girl yourselves so i don't believe i am fuelling the ability of PD's to perpetrate their actions, they will do so anyway and they only do so by virtue of guys wanting to be played. no girl can play you if you do not want to be played. i expected to get played which is why there has been some upset (due to other mischief not laid at the girls door) it was quickly passed because i was prepped for it and am capable of dealing with it in my own style.

a few comments have been raised about 'why date these girls' - very simply because i enjoy it. they are challenging, they are fun, you don't know what is going to happen and its like pitting your wits against another in a battle of emotion over common sense, lust over restraint, desire over self control - at the end of this dance of wills someone wins and someone loses.

my friend gets similar pleasures from seducing amsterdam window girls. every year he goes to amsterdam purely with the intention of charming a girl from her window and soiliciting a normal relationship from her. his dad was a player of grand order so it explains his high stakes thrills, we might think him a idiot and not see why anyone would want to have a relationship with a prostitute but the fact is this guy is very, very, very good at getting girls. I have seen him pick up dates at phone boxes, bus shelters, in bars, on trains. when he got busted for driving offences he even got the cops phone number. he is a rascal of charm and the RLD girls are his picasso - his grand challenge - the reason he has no moral problem with relating in person to a girl who sells sex for money is because he is again the yin to their yang, if you accept the social stigma of being a punter you cannot call out the service provider as having lesser morals than you, and she cannot think less of you. with a sexual CV running into serious numbers he has lost the sexual jealousy that would ravage most mens emotions from such a girls prior history.

for my sins i toyed with lots of girls hearts when i was a young buck, and caused an equal amount of harm as these girls do to chaps so I am not innocent and do not judge them. I am certainly not going to take some moral high ground that because they misled 10 -100 other chaps that I should punish them with denial of any affection or treat them as a normal girl. even criminals reform, i do not feel any guit over what she did to those chaps because they let it happen to themselves - they should know better so why should i be their moral keeper.

i appreciate i have a very different take on the world of human relationships based on my experience, i came from nothing so i can understand people who have chosen a less moral path to work to get by that others perhaps more fortunate cannot understand.

i think a couple of the old board hands really 'get' me in what drives me, and why i do what i do - for everyone else they consider i am just delusional, kidding myself or wasting money - but the funny thing is many peoples opinions are only based on their own thinking not analysing what someone elses position is.

What helps me sleep at night is choosing girls who do not always have a moral clean slate, call it junkie love, if you are a user you find tolerance in other users, knowing i have not always been on the right side of the line but balanced that neither as she means she can never judge my past and i cannot judge hers.

If i chose some moralistic virgin she would have a hugely difficult time accepting some of my history and because of this i would always feel shamed of it, i am a fundamentally honest guy about what i've done so i could not hide it and pretend i was ever a monk.

somebody asked what i got out of it, and was it worth it.

as it happens yes. a couple of posters have really hit some nerves about my lifestyle and whether it is actually worth it or not and I have concluded it isn't. I also know what needs to be done to correct it and align my life to a more 'normal way of doing things'

all said and done there is very little 'normal' in cultural context of the whole bride agency business of going to another country on a 'dating holiday' and expecting marriage.

Some of my biggest issues is that i did this once and it does not work out so good for me, therefore the only way i can go forwards to have a UA girl (Who i still have a big sweet spot for in general due to being such hard work) is to become a UA boy.

I have learnt some good lessons from all this including about what i want from life in future, the role money and status plays (or will not play) and what i value in others.

so as a post marriage voyage of discovery this has been better than 2 weeks of therapy for me.

[Rubicon]

Here's hoping that Neo finds his lady, and that they both commit "All the Way"...

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2Tef3IEWCM[/youtube]

[Vincenzo]

that was never my gameplan. if i want to buy sex i know where to shop.

For me, "dating" an Anastasia's girl  is similar to phone sex. You pay per minute and per letter, and the girl tries to fulfill your fantasies about having a hot sexy model, first in chat, then during your short date. Then she moves to another client.

Have you been to a strip club? Did you see a hot girl talking to a retired guy or a midget? Did she like him?
At least, a stripper shows something before moving to another guy.

[Rubicon]

For me, "dating" an Anastasia's girl  is similar to phone sex. You pay per minute and per letter, and the girl tries to fulfill your fantasies about having a hot sexy model, first in chat, then during your short date. Then she moves to another client.

Have you been to a strip club? Did you see a hot girl talking to a retired guy or a midget? Did she like him?
At least, a stripper shows something before moving to another guy.

Vincenzo,  I am just curious are you by any chance related to the lady who owns La Perla marriage agency from Belarus who is married to an Italian man??

[Vincenzo]

Vincenzo,  I am just curious are you by any chance related to the lady who owns La Perla marriage agency from Belarus who is married to an Italian man??

No, I'm not married and I'm looking for a girl. Certainly, not in Odessa.

I've met a girl from anastasiadate. Contrary to what was written in her profile, she was a heavy smoker. I don't like smokers, and I found out that 90% of girls in Odessa smoke. Moreover, her boyfriend called her when we were together.

If you want to know a girl from anastasia, get her email during a phone date that costs ~ $38. If she doesn't want to communicate directly, move on.  It's much cheaper than a trip to the Ukraine to see a girl who has no feelings towards you.

[Rubicon]

No, I'm not married and I'm looking for a girl. Certainly, not in Odessa.

I've met a girl from anastasiadate. Contrary to what was written in her profile, she was a heavy smoker. I don't like smokers, and I found out that 90% of girls in Odessa smoke. Moreover, her boyfriend called her when we were together.

If you want to know a girl from anastasia, get her email during a phone date that costs ~ $38. If she doesn't want to communicate directly, move on.  It's much cheaper than a trip to the Ukraine to see a girl who has no feelings towards you.

That is exactly correct.  The only way that Anastasia allows you to get contact info from a woman is to call her on one of their conference calls and ask her for her direct cell phone number.  If she will not give it to you, I agree completely do not bother wasting your money to go and visit her. 

[neo]

I think the point of my exercise is that if you want to meet a AW type girl, don't use AW!!!!!

there are plenty of these girls out partying every weekend that the cost of admission to a club + drinks is much cheaper than going through such elaborate measures to get her phone number from the website.

that has been the whole point of this exercise, to show that AW girls under 25 are not going to be interested in AW punters.

heres my key learnings summarised for those that don't want to trawl through the thread:

On AnastasiaDate

1: as correctly stated by all, AD is a fantasy site for bored men to throw quarters into the meter to get some attention from a hot young lady. its like UA girls pay per view.

2: Most AW clients will never ever visit, its mostly puntered by married guys wanting internet fantasy dates, arabs who can't get at porn and the odd guy who believes the hype and actually goes. Judging how busy they are in ODS they are getting plenty of trade.

3: If you are involved with a hot under 25 year old regardless of where she is from, forget the whole MOB mindset and accept it is just dating. if its with AW its a paid courtesan deal.

4: all the speculation is entirely true. Girls get kickbacks, iphones, and laptops for their services. if you turn up at a date expect to pay for it at a rate of at least 10 USD a hour in the form of her 'taxi fare home' that would be high enough for take a Berlin Taxi to stuttgart.....

5: there are some serious girls on AW - they are mostly not from odessa, over 25, single moms and professionals, and probably not the smoking 19 year old they sell the fantasy on.

6: i am a pretty young guy with a good setup, I went into this showing that even with the best possible offer a guy could put to a financial mercenary (ill advised or not) if she isn't interested in a relationship she still will not bite, on that basis what does a out of shape middle aged guy with a normal paycheck stand a chance with any of them??

7: Nobody in their right mind would really want to leave Odessa without a better offer (i.e Laguna Beach). Its not some failed city, its where the FSU rich come to play and there is plenty of young monied guys on the local dating scene for them to choose from.

8: if you pursue women under 25 like it or not whatever they say ITS JUST DATING, and the rules are JUST LIKE DATING AT HOME. she is not going to give you any credit for travelling across the globe so don't expect any shortcuts.

9: PD's are a breed apart. I have successfully 'converted' a PD relationship into a normal relationship in the past, it doesn't mean it can be done with every girl.

10: all the NORMAL rules of engagement still apply. don't spend money, don't send gifts, don't go on shopping trips, keep control of your situation, know when to walk away. etc etc.

On Odessa in General:

1: Odessa is a great place to come and party and have a quality vacation time instead of going to a Ukrainian mining village. HOWEVER it is only a great place to come and party. it is a simply terrible place to find a sincere wife (if thats what you want)

2: if you want to date Odessa girls, take a 3 month sabbatical from work and take time off over the 'bridge time' from winter to summer. lest tourists in town and bride-hunters so girls get bored. you can score lots of dates on the local scene with bored girls and then have fun with them in summer. as stated above these girls are just party girls, treat it as dating, spend no money on them and enjoy whatever you get. behave like a UA guy and try and keep several on the go at once so you don't get involved or hurt.

3: if you do above there is some minor chance you will click with one of them who is interested in coming home with you after you leave town. it may never happen. its down to your charm looks and luck.

4: a agency girl will treat you VERY differently if she meets you in the street, in the bar or at the beach as a normal joe than if she meets you in her 'work time'. Your best plan is to go in low key, tell her you are a student studying Russian there and here to have fun, don't mention marriage, kids or any of the usual. there is plenty of single girls here looking for dates. just not with AW bride hunters.

5: Learning Russian is a MUST. if you take the plan above you can do a intensive Russian course for about 150 USD a week at the local Russian language college - this also means you will have some playmates to go out hunting with and blend much more easily into the social scene than the stereotypical single make bride hunting traveller.

6: make friends with some local UA guys - the girls will treat you VERY differently again if you are part of a local guy rat pack since it removes a lot of the social stigma of being on the arm of a foreigner if its presumed you are a expat or second gen UA guy.

7: DO NOT SPEND MONEY UNTIL YOU SEE THE ACTION!!!!!! - i know i said i do not do this *in the context of looking for a LTR* but when its just casual dating (which is the only way to go if you are going in under 25) then make sure the girl has a stake in the pony before you put up anything either. As has been seen - you can THROW money at a girl and still get nowhere. These girls sometimes do not have the intelligence they are born with, they behave entirely irrationally that they will be a complete slut for guys who treat them like trash and walk all over a guy with good intentions. I seriously believe the only way to impress a UA girl is to behave EXACTLY like a UA guy would.

8: if you are some old guy looking to score a hot young chick, save the airfare and get a escort back home. the only way you will ever get a date with a hot young girl out of her 'work context' is if you are a hot young guy, or a average young to middling guy with a bit of status (a decent apartment and SUV here, not in the west).

9: it IS a great place to come and be a bachelor if you have the time and inclination. the streets are pathed with hot young chicks and many are not that averse to dating a older guy who gives them a bit of extra, that said they are looking for the slightly older guy with a good offer who ticks all the local guy boxes - not some guy 3000 mile away in fantasy land.

10: the whole place is like Las Vegas. someone always has some way to try and fiddle you for cash. don't take it personally its rooted so deep in the culture its a standing joke. if you are offended by the knock-a-bout nature of people fleecing each other then i suggest you don't come here ever. you will only be dissapointed if you are a moral upstanding guy.

What i got out of it:

1: FIRST AND FOREMOST - this was a good vacation in a nice holiday resort with some dating chucked in. the fact i paid for that dating is neither here nor there, it was just a chance to ensure i had some set-up companionship to arrive to and didn't have to go out on the prowl in a short space of time. there was some VERY VERY minority chance i could click with a girl but I was always expecting it for what it was - paying a pretty AW to spend time with me and keep me from getting bored.

2: you can lecture me all you like on 'wasting money' and 'spoiling the game' and 'not being serious' - i went in exactly to do what i went to do, i viewed AW as a escort agency without the certainty of sex and of course the lower price tag that goes with it (sex with a girl this hot would cost more than i would be willing to pay in any case). i have been celibate for several months after going immorally berserk after my marriage breakup so i wasnt interested in sex dating, i was merely happy to have a pretty companion hang off my arms for a few hours to idle away a boring single man vacation. if you think that is a waste of time - maybe for you, thats how i wanted to spend my time and i enjoyed it - AW delivered - nobody went home empty handed. she got the baubles, i got the nice experience. win/win.

3: i didnt spoil the game for anyone. anyone using AW who doesn't think its a sham is a idiot. personally i do not bother with all the get her number via phone advice because i am not in some lightning hurry to meet a girl, i am happy just idle away dating. its been mentioned why bother dating this way due to expense, time, fraud etc? well its how i choose to enjoy my time. I am bored of dating back home and wanted to combine a holiday with something i find pleasurable - time spent with a pretty companion.

4: if i had been after something different, i would have behaved very different, if i had wanted sex for sure i would not have spent a penny - i was playing a very different tactic because i was interested to know something different. opinions will vary but i know clearly what i was up to.

5: it does not matter what you bring to the table, money, american passport, charm wit or humor - if a girl is not into you she is not into you and there is nothing you can do - this is the key message for the guys who do all the things i did hoping it will work, it clearly doesn't - the collective board wisdom is 100% spot on - if she likes you then you do not have to do ANYTHING but show up and spend time with her, she will make her affections felt, after which you can spoil her if you feel the need arises.

6: if you are in this game to find a wife, then the standing wisdom of choosing a normal looking girl over 25 still stands. you will NOT find anything in a under 25 hot UA girl that you would not find to expect on a campus in arizona, texas or delaware. they are airheaded young girls who like to party, smoke, drink, chase football jocks and shop. these are not traditional ukrainian wife material - they are westernised young playgirls.

7: there are plenty of smoking hot girls over 25, over 30 and even 35. I saw plenty in Odessa who are grown up enough to be past the silly game stage and make a nice catch for guys not obsessed with DOB.

8: I got out clean. i got out clean because although there was a bit of minor upset i did not ever expect this girl to be at all serious. I still want a serious relationship with a girl who wants a family so i would NOT, repeat NOT do this thing again to pursue a LTR option - its just frivolous dating to pass away the time while i get out of married man mode and learn to get my game face back on.

9: I am happy DATING. regardless of the woman i know others do agree with me that THE ONLY approach that works is to treat it with normal dating context rules. the most serious guys who will have the most success are the ones who go to Ukraine or Russia, live there (perhaps with a host family) for 3-6 months and learn to be fluent in Russian language AND culture then meet a lot of girls through the local dating scene and NOT through agencies. in many cases the girls amount to the same thing. girls will treat you with a LOT more respect if you are a local Russian student than if you are a fly in, romance, fly out merchant. you can't learn anything about Russian women from sitting in front of your PC reading a load of tat from 'showboaters' like me and others. This does not mean i am not looking for a LTR - its just i know through bitter experience the agency girls can be the bottom of the dating barrel with so many problems, and going for 2 weeks will never ever reveal them until its too late, and going to the lengths of hiring private dicks to follow around a complete stranger, doing all manner of 'tests' and other such things is just going to turn you into a paranoid deluded mental case with a inability to trust. If you spent enough time in country to learn the people and the culture from the ground you would realise much of your opinions, ideas, and speculation of life over there from the comfort of your PC are complete BS.

10:this was a DATING EXPERIMENT. for sure the optimist in me had some sliver of hope it could come good but the writing was always on the wall, for once principle reason, the only person who knows what she wants and what she is doing there is the girl sat across from you, and in some cases even she doesn't know so expecting her to behave like a rational reasoned person is never going to fly. I got what i wanted from the experience, i am going home to buy a new Porsche and chase some local skirt. I will return to Odessa in the summer to do a full russian course, enjoy the beach and do some dating. my AW jig is up because i know i can be more successful on the streets than the web.

Some final travel tips:

1: have a married terp - or at very least one who has no interest in you. having a terp who has a dog in the fight makes things 3x worse.
2: if you are a confident driver then rent your own car and your own terp. meet your girl at the venue and avoid all the taxi scams. at 20+ USD a pop each way its cheaper to rent a merc than take a taxi ride with a agency girl. it allows you to seize all power since if she has invited you to a ritzy joint you can simply drive yourself home if she wanted change the venue.
3: if you use your own terp - do not make the mistake i did - do NOT use a terp from a agency. they will likely as not ply the same game as the agency did on you but for their own personal benefit not the agencies. corrupt people are corrupt period. use your apartment agency or another 'trusted' terp who is happy with their hourly rate rather than getting the jam of all the kick backs on top
4: trust your own judgement. not all advice you are given will ever help you. everyone has their own life objective, you should know what yours are and stick to your gameplan.
5: know what you want before you start. time burns quickly in country, if you do not know exactly what you are looking for and how you want to go about it you will not know if you are making progress or not, therefore won't know where the bail points are to get out when things arent on track.
6; TREAT IT LIKE A BUSINESS DEAL. this is a golden rule and sounds quite harsh, but all the letter writing, first meeting and preamble you need to keep emotion out of the mix, i promise when you meet one of these girls and she is into you then it will take you less than 30 seconds to fall for her charms. not getting involved until her panties are on your bedroom floor is a sure fire way to avoid getting dissapointed, heartache and financial damage to your life and will help you focus on finding the right girl, not just a girl at any price.
7: women are women the world over, for sure there is a cultural difference and way of thinking but their core expectations are still the same. if you assigned a private dick to follow around a girl you had not met on the internet in NYC she would think you are a mentalist creep and take out a restraining order against you, why would a UA girl think this was normal behaviour? be a smart guy and trust your own judgement to know when you are being played and know when she is serious - if you cannot recognise the difference stay out of the game - UA girls are for SERIOUS guys with some skills in interpersonal relationships - its not a good training ground for guys who don't get what women are all about. you need to know how to date a woman first, then you need to do a masterclass in dating a UA woman.
8: get as FAR away from the FSU MOB scene as you can. if you are SERIOUS about finding a decent UA or RW then take a expedited course in Russian and join the Russian social network sites, mention you will be visiting their country to improve your language (you are not looking for a wife) and get some platonic friends to meet up with. they will introduce you to someone, thats the logical way to make things happen these days if you want a girl who is interested in the man first and foremost.

9: be prepared to move to RU or UA. this was the BEST, i repeat BEST piece of advice i have ever been given by a agency terp. The best girls do not want to leave, they have family, jobs, friends and a life in their own city. all they are missing is a man. if you do not have an especially good life to offer in your own country or you are not 100% prepared to move to her country if things do not work out in yours i do not believe this is the situation for you. the very best girls and the ones that will respect a guy the most are the ones who do not want to leave and will be quite happy for you to fit into their life here - this is what my own wife wanted, she didn't care about the western money or lifestyle - when we did not get her visa she just wanted me to stay and was quite happy to work and keep me until we got on our feet. thats true love for you and what you need to aim for.

10: finally. and its often forgotten in all the noise over scam, intentions, agency etc. ENJOY YOURSELF. stay safe and be savvy but do not become so paranoid and concerned about every minor detail that you FORGET you are COURTING and trying to build ROMANCE - therefore take time out to enjoy your experiences good and bad and enjoy the girl whatever imperfections or worries she may sometimes cause you.

There is NO CERTAINTY of success in this quest, you will not always get what you want, but as long as you only did what you were happy to do, and enjoyed your experience on the way you can come out the other side with a positive feeling about everything.

I expect people will have many different opinions on what i have written, i do not ever say i am right - its for each of us to read many opinions and balance them and decide what we believe is right FOR OURSELVES - with OUR SITUATION. you cannot apply another persons moral mindset or rules to your own circumstance or the girls - we are all unique and it demands a unique approach.

I wish you all luck, health love and happiness!

Thank you and goodnight!!!

[neo]

And Finally

Thank you if you read this far, its been fun to share my time and stopped me getting bored in the downtime.

For those that STILL don't get my methods.

I know most of you don't get what I am all about (except maybe AJ and Rubicon)

All 15 years of dating, living, working, travel and marriage in Russia and Ukraine has given me is the experience to see through the Agency/Internet MOB scene BS and see it for what it is, it never gave me a magic book to charm UA/RW.

my approach is very, very simple. it does not matter if it is a AW girl, a stripper in a lap dancing bar, a girl in a pizza joint or on the bus. All i am every looking for is a introduction/icebreaker to meet a girl of choice. After that all bets are off, its purely down to the 'game' of romance and mutual attraction. my life experience has taught me one inescapable truth - when a girl likes you, she likes you period.

The ONLY sure fire way to know a girl is into you for who you are is to strip away all the money and other motivations and become a regular local guy she is used to. The very best (and probably only way) to know you have married a girl who 100% loves you and married you for that reason is to not go looking for agency girls or girls that specifically want a western man or marriage. if you choose a local girl who is just interested in a guy for the normal course of events, dating, serious LTR then marriage and had not considered marriage as her primary goal or meeting a WM for marriage as her primary goal then you know her true motivations. A girl who marries you DESPITE not looking to get married or meeting a WM is a level playing field that can't be disputed.

Girls go to agencies for many reasons, all of them probably contradict the basic boy meets girl and falls in love romance dynamic. it pollutes the clear waters with unseen forces.

And this has always been my approach, i ironically would prefer to meet a girl who was hired as a model by an agency and views writing and meeting WM as a job, then meets me and falls in love and quits this to be with me as being much more honest and right for me than a girl who wanted a WM for marriage and to move to the west - the reason is simple because through meeting me and knowing me she has found enough reason that she wanted to be with me to fundamentally change her thinking. only really love can do this (since money and other forces have proven not to work. from history on a girl who loves will change her thinking and listen to her heart not her head).

So i appreciate the very different understanding and viewpoint this leads to from a board perspective and as a consequence it having much higher odds of failure more in line with traditional western dating (especially in the context of trying to charm a super hot young girl).

the best UA relationship i ever had (of 6 years) was with my former PD girlfriend. it was not without problems (any relationship is not without problems) and our situation was unique. but I knew that because she fundamentally did not want a WM for marriage or leave her country when she chose to have a relationship with me (including plenty of nooky) and her reluctance to leave for the west I knew we were a serious thing.

I am NOT saying this can be done, especially with a AW - as i go back to my point its just an introduction - it can only work if you are in the girls range of suitable attractive mates and what she wants in the first place and then run your game in such a way to stand out from the pack and be something different. but how is that really different from any other dating context down a bar?

A lot of guys are here to look for a shortcut to find the woman of their dreams, some will succeed, many with fail, there is a huge element of blind luck involved especially for the WOVO first time hero's. depending on what you go in for you are in for either a very easy situation, a challenge like climbing mount everest and all points in between. its often said that UA or RW dating is 10x harder than domestic because of all the new challenges it introduces - i am not a idiot - i married a RW for 6 years, was engaged to another and dated her for 5 and had varying dating scenarios with more than 100+ other girls over 15 years and cut my teeth on the UA dating scene so have seen huge numbers of different dynamics and situations played out - i am lucky enough to know guys who got happy 10 year and going marriages on a WOVO from match.com and guys who have spent fortunes and got nowhere.

Far from being a 'showboater' I am very realistic because I have lots of UA and RM friends who grew up with these girls and can cut the reality from the BS and were happy to teach me some lessons, and thats why i always treated this situation as dating a foreign girl not trying to find a foreign wife - because deep down i know both paths lead to marriage but the former 'normal' approach has a much higher chance of you finding a normal level of happiness in a intercultural relationship than the slightly faked up over-hyped MOB model.

if you can genuinely go in with the mindset that you are there to date a girl and hope it leads to a LTR i think you have probably nailed the biggest secret to success in the whole thing - you will instantly turn from being a strangely behaving paranoid wierd guy into a average joe with a sexy foreign accent.

Unfortunately as many girls will tell me - this whole fraternity attracts a substantial percentage of whack-jobs with some pretty alarming approaches to women, as a consequence WM are getting a bad a reputation for wierd behaviour as RW are for scamming - your real challenge as you set forth on this journey is to set yourself apart from these 'mob of MOB' and show you are a regular respectful guy who is looking for a very normal LTR - that you are serious about marriage but its not your endgame with each and every girl you meet but a natural product of a successful, balanced loving relationship built over time.

There are plenty of decent, genuine young women in UA and RU looking for a nice decent guy, and if you present yourself the right way and don't get drawn into the MOB mindset i believe you can be successful, you have to take the good with the bad - any woman is not going to accept you treating her strangely or badly because you got scammed once. start every encounter with a clean sheet and a emotionally positive view.

So for sure you will make mistakes, i shared my blog so you can see even after all my experience i still make mistakes because relationships and dating is a very fluid dynamic and emotion is always at play so you can never predict if you will respond the right or wrong way when on the field,. you can only hope if you have a right objective it will keep you on enough forward momentum to get over any obstacles and stay in a positive trajectory.

And my single biggest message is this: when it all does not work as you had hoped. don't get angry. don't turn into some internet jerk claiming everyone was a scam and they will be made to pay. you played love roulette and the house won thats all. not everything that is bad that is done to you is done through out of malice, i will say it 10000 times Russian and UA culture is based on corruption, it is not just you and other WM that suffer it but everyone in the entire culture from the president down - if you have a problem with it then please do not go seeking to become a part of a family where paying people off is a normal way of life. everyone is doing a deal with someone, its how their society functions, what is seen as 'scam's and duping foreigners' with the resteraunt kick backs, taxi fares and other such things is a normal way of life (even for genuine non MOB tour operators). its 'bread money' its how people get paid. it does not always mean the girl is out to rob you or her agency, its how they do business and is normal for them. what is important is that the right girl will always protect you from it and perpetrate her own kick back regime in your favour   - getting angry about it won't change anything. you can only be scammed if you want to be scammed.

and thats the rub: if you go to UA or RU to be a honest, nice decent kind guy you will get taken to the cleaners more often than not, you need to be TOUGH - thats what they mean by a REAL man - someone who is intelligent enough to have his wits sharp that he is nobodies fool, if he gets played its because he wants to be and he tells them so - there is a polite respect you get that you know what they are up to and tell them so, this isn't a acceptance of scammers - its just understanding their way of life - and after all the worlds most successful scammer by numbers was Bernie Madoff - an american

One thing you can be 100% sure of:

Whatever i do next i will do it 180 degrees different than i did this. I always like to experiment with new trajectories and like to innovate different ways of going about life, adapting your ideas and approach is healthy to discover what works for you. this one did not work out, maybe going up to a hot girl as a broke and cheeky student will play out better, maybe its just the wrong girl. it still may have been the wrong girl if she was 25, 35 or 50 - you cannot account for chemistry which can't be defined. at some point if you throw enough stones at a window it will break

thanks for reading, i hope it has entertained you - it is just that a adventure blog not a serious attempt to define the RWD approach. if you read it in that context and don't get excited that i am some wilful lunatic but a normal young guy enjoying his life then you will maybe get the thinking behind the journey.

[neo]

FOOTNOTE:

Just in case Megan Fox is reading:

My darling girl, no matter what rubbish i have written here i would like you to know I am 100% serious about you and always was. Life is not simple. we know this. you are a enslaved victim of a industry that thrives on young women. I am but an arrogant fool who loves your mind but mostly your lucky charms.

you are my angel so please marry me and look after my dog. You know we belong together. i leave you because your agency is robbing me blind and thinks i am an idiot. i do not want to spend my porsche fund on your overpriced agency taxi service although I am happy to spend it on your la perla knicker draw.

you know i wrote this because we both knew what was going on, and neither of us stopped it. if only we had been honest and thrown the terp into the sea and run away to Sevastapol. how different our lives could be. you always wanted a intelligent man. if you read this you will know I am an idiot who is intelligent enough to know he is an idiot.

if you give me your heart I promise i will stop shagging other women and writing about you on the internet.

pps: can you give me the receipt back for the handbag. its an allowable expense under the foreign employee and client gifts rule and since you didn't sleep with me I want to write off the trip against my tax bill. I know you don't like to waste money and value prudence in a man therefore I am sure you will understand this is not because i do not value you as a woman but good financial management to reduce the financial liabilities of failed romance attempts.