Operation White Panther

[olgac]

Agree with what You said but my point is I see it more in FSU culture now than in western culture among young women!
Don't see this at all in my daughter or her friends. When These American girls think of their financial future they mostly
thing about their own education and job not about female energy which would buy them lavish lifestyle paid by a man.

[Patagonie]

Agree with what You said but my point is I see it more in FSU culture now than in western culture among young women!
Don't see this at all in my daughter or her friends. When These American girls think of their financial future they mostly
thing about their own education and job not about female energy which would buy them lavish lifestyle paid by a man.

   
I was overgeneralizing and forgot a little bit that the subject was about these young FSU girls.
Very happy for you that your daughter and her friends don't get this spirit, how old is she?
   
Olga, between what you have know during your time in FSU and the behavior I have described of this young woman, how do you explain that things have shifted like this in 20 years in FSU? How have they got this "just pay to have me around"?   
I invite women here to express their opinion. 

[olgac]

hi! Our daughter is 21 and is a computer science university student.

I think the entitlement attitude is a result of pendulum swinging the other direction.
in 90s after the soviet union crumbled, many men lost their jobs and instead of
finding other ways to help support families, many got depressed, started drinking
and just sat at home while their wives learned to make money in the new economy
being more adaptable. At the same time women continued to do everything at home too
because it was considered a woman's job.

So many women had had enough and got tired to do everything: support a family alone
AND do all the typically female duties. They went from one extreme to another extreme
and now they want the man to provide 100% of family income : even if a woman works
her money is only hers and his is for family. At the same time they decided a woman
doesn't need to do any typical female work at home either, she is just supposed to be
someone a man adores and works for and her only responsibility is to provide so called
"female energy".  In late 90s - early 2000s many women just wanted a traditional household
and were prepared to do their part in such household but their daughters - not so much.
They only wan tto keep part of traditions convenient to them

To me this is even different that feminism in US where women want to be treated same as men,
this is wanting a woman to be treated above the man so the man has all the typical traditional
male responsibility while she is being treated as a princess and doesn't need to do what women
did historically and instead sleep in, go to spas and salons, have a maid, get expensive gifts, etc.

This is mainly true for FSU women in their 20s and 30s who have grew up seeing their mom
slave away and now want the opposite.

[Patagonie]

Very interesting Olga 
It matches with some interviews (on young women) that I have seen made on streets by a Youtuber I think in Ukraine. 
And I was surprised hearing some one them saying something my money is my money (in the household). 

[Patagonie]

We are now in the final steps to give all documents to the embassy with lady of Thailand, and believe me the number of documents is really impressive.
After all of this, you think, they, of course, do whatever is possible to discourage to ask for a visa. 
So we have now a daily communication, even several times a day, with phone calls. 
   
The communication is really good at the moment, minus my problem with the Russian language. 
She do her part of work, no doubt, and even helped to move things forward because I was stupidly waiting for an appointment, while you have to ask one by yourself.   
     
That's a huge work. 
 
But in fact this story of visa, through the long course of his own challenges, reveals a little bit the true personalities of both contenders. 

[olgac]

really cool there is again good communication!
But I would still keep Your options open

[Trenchcoat]

So many women had had enough and got tired to do everything: support a family alone
AND do all the typically female duties. They went from one extreme to another extreme
and now they want the man to provide 100% of family income : even if a woman works
her money is only hers and his is for family. At the same time they decided a woman
doesn't need to do any typical female work at home either, she is just supposed to be
someone a man adores and works for and her only responsibility is to provide so called
"female energy".  In late 90s - early 2000s many women just wanted a traditional household
and were prepared to do their part in such household but their daughters - not so much.
They only want to keep part of traditions convenient to them

To me this is even different that feminism in US where women want to be treated same as men,
this is wanting a woman to be treated above the man so the man has all the typical traditional
male responsibility while she is being treated as a princess and doesn't need to do what women
did historically and instead sleep in, go to spas and salons, have a maid, get expensive gifts, etc.

This is mainly true for FSU women in their 20s and 30s who have grew up seeing their mom
slave away and now want the opposite.

Yes, this tends to be true for my Ukrainian girl and her friends who are around 30 Olga. We've been dating over a year now and at first I just thought I had a career girl on my hands, I didn't really know what I had on my hands. But as you correctly point out it doesn't seem to be the same as in West thank goodness. However from what I have seen problems seem to come up with having children since if the woman isn't going to be available to look after the child much and the man who traditionally doesn't either then who does??? Lol.

Some want their parents to do some childminding but many have no wish to do so they have already done all that and don't wish for a redo. So often childminding services seem to be the answer if the lifestyles of the couple can't be scheduled well enough to look after the child/baby, but they often of course come at a cost and that is where discord can begin with the couple. Potentially if the cost can be endured until the baby is old enough to go to kindergarten, etc or similar where costs may be lower as looked after with others then that may alleviate the pressure. I've not got no problem with a woman having time to herself a bit, etc but I am not sure if this present day trend in Ukraine/FSU quite fits well enough. Potentially birth rates may continue to go down there if there isn't seen to be room enough in such a set up for children which is shame I think.

I definitely think that things have changed in dating in Ukraine/FSU over time, as you say a new generation of girls in their 20s and early 30s or so are around now and they aren't the same as the girls that many of the old timers on this board knew when dating, 30, 20 or even 10 years ago. Sure some things remain the same, always get flowers, pay for dates, open the door for the girl (but I find only when convenient now) but the psychology of these younger girls tend to be different, they are no longer the domestic goddesses that the older generation were minded to be, they may still do some cooking, etc but they aren't so grounded that way now. Still though I think a better option than most Western women, you just have to realise that the old stereotype of the typical Ukrainian/FSW doesn't usually apply to the younger generation of Ukrainian/FSW these days. I think a lot of people think things stay the same in Ukraine/FSU but even out there things change eventually over time the same as they do here but in different ways.

Good to hear things are going well again with your girl Pat also

[Patagonie]

really cool there is again good communication!
But I would still keep Your options open

Thank Olga. 
I will. I am waiting a redo for an appointment with girl 2. 
I am waiting a little bit as I know she is traveling next days. 
The best is to let her coming back to me and if not you innocently call to get some news.
But definitively will explore this way or some other if it happens. 

[Patagonie]

Yes, this tends to be true for my Ukrainian girl and her friends who are around 30 Olga. We've been dating over a year now and at first I just thought I had a career girl on my hands, I didn't really know what I had on my hands. But as you correctly point out it doesn't seem to be the same as in West thank goodness. However from what I have seen problems seem to come up with having children since if the woman isn't going to be available to look after the child much and the man who traditionally doesn't either then who does??? Lol.

Some want their parents to do some childminding but many have no wish to do so they have already done all that and don't wish for a redo. So often childminding services seem to be the answer if the lifestyles of the couple can't be scheduled well enough to look after the child/baby, but they often of course come at a cost and that is where discord can begin with the couple. Potentially if the cost can be endured until the baby is old enough to go to kindergarten, etc or similar where costs may be lower as looked after with others then that may alleviate the pressure. I've not got no problem with a woman having time to herself a bit, etc but I am not sure if this present day trend in Ukraine/FSU quite fits well enough. Potentially birth rates may continue to go down there if there isn't seen to be room enough in such a set up for children which is shame I think.

I definitely think that things have changed in dating in Ukraine/FSU over time, as you say a new generation of girls in their 20s and early 30s or so are around now and they aren't the same as the girls that many of the old timers on this board knew when dating, 30, 20 or even 10 years ago. Sure some things remain the same, always get flowers, pay for dates, open the door for the girl (but I find only when convenient now) but the psychology of these younger girls tend to be different, they are no longer the domestic goddesses that the older generation were minded to be, they may still do some cooking, etc but they aren't so grounded that way now. Still though I think a better option than most Western women, you just have to realise that the old stereotype of the typical Ukrainian/FSW doesn't usually apply to the younger generation of Ukrainian/FSW these days. I think a lot of people think things stay the same in Ukraine/FSU but even out there things change eventually over time the same as they do here but in different ways.

Good to hear things are going well again with your girl Pat also

Few years ago, just before the war I already observed a significant shift in Ukraine on the dating marketamong women around 40. 
As you said they were not so grounded the old way. As I have extensively dated from 2009, in a decade I could feel the difference myself.   
   
Things are going well again, thank Trenchcoat, but this is too new to give it enough credit now.
I look after more actions and commitment from her and just keep a mental score in my head of what is real. 
I came back to a dispassionated emotional and mental state as much as possible and feel really good about this. 
But I still greatly enjoy the interaction.
I have regained a lot more of humanity since I have met her. I cannot deny it. This is something that Krim never understood, it's not about the flesh, I was really and genuinely caring for this woman.
 
 

[Patagonie]

In terms of game, in this exact context, except the stupid idea to totally drop the girl at this stage, you have very little margin. 
At this exact moment we have very short time to finalize the visa, so it's not the moment to play the diva and put some distance on her or delay the calls.
You want this visa to be done, if not you are purely sabotaging yourself, the time you have already invested, your money, and a possible relationship.
Additionnaly, in international relationship, especially with languages differences, communication is paramount. I have already gave her FOUR timse the silent treatment. And the relationship it still there. That means at least that she wants to keep on.

[Patagonie]

We are now in the final steps to give all documents to the embassy with lady of Thailand, and believe me the number of documents is really impressive.
After all of this, you think, they, of course, do whatever is possible to discourage to ask for a visa. 
So we have now a daily communication, even several times a day, with phone calls. 
   
The communication is really good at the moment, minus my problem with the Russian language. 
She does her part of work, no doubt, and even helped to move things forward because I was stupidly waiting for an appointment, while you have to ask one by yourself.   
     
That's a huge work. 
 
But in fact this story of visa, through the long course of his own challenges, reveals a little bit the true personalities of both contenders.

[Patagonie]

Round 3 with lady of Thailand
will be when a French latin lover, rich of ten centuries of his culture,
who, additionally, plays everything at home,
will bring her in a maestrom of emotions 
that she has never met or has forgotten for so long
     
The sun, the flowers, the danger of the speed and the taste of the wind, 
the food, the delicate attention given, the night spent in the wild, 
the real French kiss, fingers running on her skin, the fire slowly raising in her,
Play with her like she is a little girl or sister but being comforting and protector.Dancing and vibrating into the music, swimming and bathing.Drinking and tasting wine, visiting castles and old cities, Talking about painting or everything.

   
If after this she is not IN     
It will be time to push her OUT or at least to change her position in the piedestral

[2tallbill]

you have very little margin. 
At this exact moment we have very short time to finalize the visa, so it's not the moment to play the diva and put some distance on her or delay the calls.
You want this visa to be done, if not you are purely sabotaging yourself, the time you have already invested, your money, and a possible relationship.
Additionnaly, in international relationship, especially with languages differences, communication is paramount. I have already gave her FOUR timse the silent treatment. And the relationship it still there. That means at least that she wants to keep on.

Pat send me a PM if you want to chat offline sometime. I want to make sure that I understand, are you trying to
get this girl some sort of VISA to visit France?

I really hope you are successful, but I truly wish it's with a different girl.

[Patagonie]

Pat send me a PM if you want to chat offline sometime. I want to make sure that I understand, are you trying to
get this girl some sort of VISA to visit France?

I really hope you are successful, but I truly wish it's with a different girl.

Ok
Done

[Patagonie]

I would like to start a series of posts about the FSU dating market, his past and his future.
I would like to talk about the new stakes that westerners are now facing and discuss
how about being nomad could be a the new fate to face the fall of the western civilization while enjoyinga more favorable dating market and many other advantages. Minuses have to be discussed to.
   
I will talk also about how to direct or redirect his focus in the explosive international context and what are the challengesbehind. 
 

[Patagonie]

First of all the FSU dating market has been totally disrupted with the war. 
The traditional dating market and most of the scamming agencies have been disrupted. 
The very rare number of genuine agencies have also suffered.
Here in RWD the number of people writing and posting has decreased to a tiny portion, new incomers are rarely to be seen.However there are still many bystanders. 
   
I am addressing them, mainly.I hope to answer many of their doubts, hope to give some hints for a life strategy.
   
The war has not only disrupted the traditional FSU dating market,the West has also continue to fall, a fall that the historian Arnold Toynbee, set before the second WW2 approximately.   
More specifically, for men, in the west, last two decades have been an increasing threat on their daily life, happiness, finances and freedom. 
Men, among the most educated millenniums, could still enjoy a favorable dating market in the biggest US cities where the percentage of highly educated men is favorable for them, highly educated women outnumbering them.
But it doesn't remove the risks associated with a whole block (the west) that is pushing the misandry day after day in every piece of the society.
Some could argue that the new Trump administration tries to contain this phenomenon. It could be, too early to write something about this, and anyway the pendulum comes move backwards in few years.

[Patagonie]

If you read this forum already it means that you have some interest or curiosity for FSU women.
And I want to warn anyone who is not or has not been married to a FSU womanThis process is and investment of at least FEW YEARS.   
You will find here, among veterans, all time the same advice, it costs time and money.There are NO shortcuts. Only swindlers will sell you this idea of choose and pickup your lady and that's all.
     
A wife, a woman who will become your closest one is not a gadget or an accessory or a trophy.
   
Especially now when the cards are clouded because the war has created a lot of motivation for women to escape while you don't want to be a shelter but you want a blossoming and nurturing relationship in an healthy connection.

[Patagonie]

Actually men are disoriented because:                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You cannot go to Ukraine, it's unsafe to the point that you really risk your life there. (but Krim is right, you will be a king there because men are at the front, the others are hiding, the rest is too young or really too old).   
Being a citizen of one of the enemy nations, it's gonna to make you uncomfortable to go to Russia or Belarus. Additionally you could be reluctant to go there for personal political reasons related to the war. In this case your choice is likely to be done. 
   
But it's not insane to go in Russia. Many have gone without problems. Just know that any electronical devices could be analyzed. Guess what, it's better that you don't have any evidence of hatred speech against Russia. And the meaning of hatred is large. 
   
Be aware that at this exact moment switching between the two countries at war, just to visit women is probably gonna to hurt you, and I would avoid absolutely to go into Crimea, occupied territories and then to Ukraine. Ukraine could also tries to know if you have some "hatred" speech against them.
     
For some of you who have jobs related to national securities and this sort of activities ... you know what I mean. Better to avoid Russia or Belarus during war time.

[Patagonie]

We have spoken about Ukraine, Russia and Belarus, 
But there are a lot countries where you can find women, due to the war.
       
In all western countries, with the status of displaced people, you will find Ukrainian women. 
Often mother and children, sometimes a family or a couple. Most of them, except men, 
travel back and forth to meet their relatives in Ukraine.     
Your principle problem will be that they don't speak your language or badly. 
The ones who spokeyour language, and who are pretty, have probably already played their cards on the local market. A lot of women who seem to be alone are likely to be engaged to Ukrainian man. All depends if theyare widows or loyal. 
   
Russian and more rarely Belarus women (but there are, I met one of them in Varsaw) are emigrating, temporary or permanently in such countries:Kazhakstan, Armenia, Georgia, Thailand, Vietnam, Serbia,
sometimes in vacation in Egypte or Tunisia.   
And the most fortunate or under refugee status are moving to the West.   
You will find there people in vacation, expats, and men who are fleeing their military duty.

[Patagonie]

For the ones who are following the traditional scheme, 
which is to find a woman abroad, to meet her abroad,
and then to fill a fiancee (K1 in the US) and then marry her
the process hasn't changed. 
     
But due to the war it's really more difficult to screen out the girls,   
This why the basics, understanding and identifying the signs of interest of a woman are of first importance.   
However it doesn't prevent you from the increased hassle that the western countries exert on you. 
As you are signed for a marriage, you become a slave under the rule of the courts, and you better
to make your homework by finding what happens in this courts and therefore, at least, to sign a prenup.
     
I would like to give some hints here about prenup and traditional FSU mentality. Be aware that a lot will not accept a prenup and all you work is to educate and explain her that a marriage with a prenup is already a good divorce for her.  A normal divorce is just unfair for you. 
Don't wait the last moment to talk about this because this is like playing Russian roulette (ah ah ah ah), you can burn and crash in 10 seconds and you will loose her. But on another way it will give you more information about what she is searching for. 

[Patagonie]

Now I am more interested to talk about nomads and how to maximize your lifeand minimize your risks. But first it's not for everyone, and second there are no game who provides 100% of profit.     
       
There are the real nomads who can make a living changing their location. There are more and more sincethe covid crisis. I remember meeting one lady in late 30 in Bratislava 3 years ago.
     
There are the mid nomads, who can work remotely but from time to time they have to go to the headquarters of the company or they have some important meetings that make them moving out from their actual location.
     
We have also all the guys, for a reason or another, that are financially enough independent to barely not care about their location. For example in Thailand there are tons of expats, most of them are retired. but I met some who still have business and they can move away for two or three months because they have a local assistant who cares about the business while they are out.



 

[Patagonie]

In a global highly tension world what should be your bet?
Should you bet on Russia or on Ukraine? Or a third country?
Which language as a nomad should you learn if you are really interested by a FSU woman?
If you buy some real estate, what are the stakes? Buying some local business also maybe?
What about taxes? Visas?
What about health care?
Are you aiming for a seasoned location?   
Do you want to move back and forth between two or three locations?
Do you consider to cut off with your nationality? Double nationality?   
   
Interesting questions.
And now you guess that we talk about a complete strategy. 
However you can relocate and change your mind, if you have not gave up your nationality. 
   
I would have a word for the bystanders.
The forum now is peaceful,
it is easy to subscribe, it takes few seconds, to come here writing what you think.
Express yourself. 

[olgac]

As You said, there are are a lot of FSU women now living abroad, especially Ukrainian refugees. I know a few locally and many do have American boyfriends some even husbands!

For expats I heard Malta, Spain, Portugal were relatively inexpensive in Europe, and of course Thailand is even cheaper. Many Americans also go to Meixco, Costa Rica