Unrealistic Expectations - Women - Entitlement Mentality

[Boethius]

stark differences being only in practice... western society is every bit as corrupt as Russia or Ukraine, varying only by nuance in practice.  Lie/cheat/steal/con/bribes/take advantage of the stupid, etc  are all mainstays on the menu in the west, just more sophisticated where their versions are more "in your face".  Granted, politicians don't shoot the opposition, or blow up their apartment buildings, but to believe that the west has actually evolved to some form of "higher level" is to partake of the the drug called self delusion.  Higher level of operating the scams - that's about it.

Way off base, and evidence of an appalling level of naivete about FSU society. 

The difference is the rule of law.

 

[Muzh]

I agree that it (true love) is not very common, yet I believe few men consciously set out seeking just a set of tits and a handful of booty for the mother of their children and partner in life. Whether they are being honest with themselves or not is a different matter entirely.

Oh yeah? Ever noticed the common thread of guys in these forums?

Words like fat, overweight, old, dressed in sweat pants, fat, no make up, shoes (read; no high heels), attire, and the list of negative visuals goes on.

[ECOCKS]

stark differences being only in practice... western society is every bit as corrupt as Russia or Ukraine, varying only by nuance in practice.  Lie/cheat/steal/con/bribes/take advantage of the stupid, etc  are all mainstays on the menu in the west, just more sophisticated where their versions are more "in your face".  Granted, politicians don't shoot the opposition, or blow up their apartment buildings, but to believe that the west has actually evolved to some form of "higher level" is to partake of the the drug called self delusion.  Higher level of operating the scams - that's about it.

Wow, I simply cannot believe that you honestly think that Dave.

In a 35 year career involving banking, healthcare, education and hospitality I have NEVER seen anything that would make me believe we are anywhere near the level of corruption as Ukraine. Bribes, physical assault and sexual coercion are everyday affairs when dealing with students, police, security guards, teachers, inspectors, doctors, lawyers, judges....the list would go on and on.

It would take me a full day to catalog the events I witnessed firsthand and another couple or so to outline the ones from trusted sources before going to hearsay, rumor, suspicions and reported news.

While we have isolated incidents such as sex scandals, bribery, extortion and the like, even Hollywood never portrayed anything like the everyday acceptance of institutionalized corruption in Ukraine's life.

School children know that you bribe traffic officers and deliver "presents" to their teachers in return for grading and favors.

Al Capone and certain elements of major city police departments couldn't even fantasize about the levels of corruption over there.

[Muzh]

I have come to the conclusion true love is not very common. 
 
Were I to only read posts of a slight majority of men here (just a slight), "true love" is based primarily on physical attributes. 
 

Yay, she's back!! No don't be going nowhere miss.

Read my previous post.

[Daveman]

Way off base, and evidence of an appalling level of naivete about FSU society. 

The difference is the rule of law.

Sophistication... ways to get around the law for periods of time. 


Completely on base as if God spoke it himself from the heavens.

[Boethius]

No, Dave.

Let me tell you a personal story. 

Right after the collapse, we started sending money to my in laws.  A few months later, my teen aged nephew is arrested.  The charges, the judge tells my SIL, will "disappear" for the EXACT amount of cash we send as a monthly stipend.

My husband was mostly disappointed in his nephew's stupidity, as he had lectured him before leaving.  That just would not happen in North America.

Nobody here views Madoff as a victim.

Blagojevich doesn't have a group of paid protestors claiming he is a victim of political intrigue.

Politicians, when elected, don't pardon convicted felons who happen to be part of their entourage.

No Western politician I know of has hunted humans for sport.

The directors of factories aren't taking public funds meant as salaries, and distributing them, tax free, to their families while workers continue to work for nothing, seeing their factory boss and his sons driving around in Mercedes, entering their gated, 10,000 square foot homes.

I could go on and on and on.


You, as a citizen, have power that no Russian or Ukrainian can even dream of  against his/her government.

[Daveman]

No, Dave.

Let me tell you a personal story. 

Right after the collapse, we started sending money to my in laws.  A few months later, my teen aged nephew is arrested.  The charges, the judge tells my SIL, will "disappear" for the EXACT amount of cash we send as a monthly stipend.

My husband was mostly disappointed in his nephew's stupidity, as he had lectured him before leaving.  That just would not happen in North America.

Nobody here views Madoff as a victim.

Blagojevich doesn't have a group of paid protestors claiming he is a victim of political intrigue.

Politicians, when elected, don't pardon convicted felons who happen to be part of their entourage.

No Western politician I know of has hunted humans for sport.

The directors of factories aren't taking public funds meant as salaries, and distributing them, tax free, to their families while workers continue to work for nothing, seeing their factory boss and his sons driving around in Mercedes, entering their gated, 10,000 square foot homes.

I could go on and on and on.


You, as a citizen, have power that no Russian or Ukrainian would have against his/her government.

To avoid having this spiral into a political debate I'll let you have the last word.  I'll just leave it at, when *they* achieve the level of sophisticated corruption that we have here, they will also have the "rule of law".

[Boethius]

LOL.  Your political system may be corrupted by money (Canadian politicians are not as corrupted, as unions, corporations, and individuals are, by law, restricted in how much they can contribute to political parties/campaigns), and American politicians can certainly become wealthy based on their positions, but there is just no comparison.  Zero.  Yushchenko, Yanukovych and Tymoshenko have all made their careers on blood.  You can't say the same of most American politicians. 

In the U.S. you, as an individual, have rights a Russian/Ukrainian can only dream of. 

Someone posted about how U.S. cities are all "the same".  My foreign born husband has a different view.  He says things here are built for the convenience of people.  Everything is planned and "thought out".

[Muzh]

LOL.  Your political system may be corrupted by money (Canadian politicians are not as corrupted, as unions, corporations, and individuals are, by law, restricted in how much they can contribute to political parties/campaigns), and American politicians can certainly become wealthy based on their positions, but there is just no comparison.  Zero.  Yushchenko, Yanukovych and Tymoshenko have all made their careers on blood.  You can't say the same of most American politicians. 

In the U.S. you, as an individual, have rights a Russian/Ukrainian can only dream of. 

Someone posted about how U.S. cities are all "the same".  My foreign born husband has a different view.  He says things here are built for the convenience of people.  Everything is planned and "thought out".

Dave, think of Ukraine as 1920s Chicago. That should give you some perspective.

[Daveman]

LOL.  Your political system may be corrupted by money (Canadian politicians are not as corrupted, as unions, corporations, and individuals are, by law, restricted in how much they can contribute to political parties/campaigns), and American politicians can certainly become wealthy based on their positions, but there is just no comparison.  Zero.  Yushchenko, Yanukovych and Tymoshenko have all made their careers on blood.  You can't say the same of most American politicians. 

In the U.S. you, as an individual, have rights a Russian/Ukrainian can only dream of. 

Someone posted about how U.S. cities are all "the same".  My foreign born husband has a different view.  He says things here are built for the convenience of people.  Everything is planned and "thought out".

Individuals having rights (which also are far more illusion than I once thought) does not negate the existence of corruption.  It seems you are narrowing your view to government.  Corrupt society is a broader concept.  I'm asserting that the same number of humans here are just as shitty as that same number there, but practice their shittiness in more sophisticated ways.  That's it.

[Boethius]

Human nature is the same all over.  I don't think Westerners are any more sophisticated in their depravity than anyone from anywhere else including, specifically, the FSU.  However,  societal responses are different, and society, ultimately, is made up of individuals.

[Daveman]

Human nature is the same all over. ..

and THAT is my point!


There seems to be a tendency, as read from these pages of RWD over time, to consider ourselves somehow better than them.  Yeah, now THAT is a basis from which to build a lasting relationship. 


Back to the topic:


Find that other half of your golden coin, and treat her exactly as such... not placing her on a pedestal, but with respect for both who she is and where she is from. IF one cannot find a way to muster the latter, he's pretty much doomed to failure.

uh, what happened to the font size?  something magic going on here...

[mies]

These comments definitely hit a nerve.
 

Gator, Ecocks has been hitting my nerve for a while. I am usually very calm, and patient, and can give benefit of a doubt to almost anyone for a veeeery long time. Most of my verbal attacks in this forum are merely a tease, or probing a person, I hardly ever mean most of the critical things I say, and overall I am a bubbly, soft and fuzzy woman. But even with me it is possible to reach the critical mass of intolerable comments and behavior. I believe if Ecocks is indeed teaching English in Ukraine, the "dialogues" and "probing" he does with his female (or male) students are indicators of his lack of professional academic and teaching ethics, and are completely unacceptable. I believe he does it in Ukraine only because he knows he can get away with it there, he won't be able to do the same thing in USA with American students.
I also believe in the power of proofs. Until now he has not presented any proofs, only is хмурит брови и надувает щеки с многозначительным видом. 


As for corruption - I fully agree that the level of corruption in Ukraine is huge and growing. It breaks my heart to see my country sinking deeper and deeper. Corruption is the extreme of "amoral familism" and super strong networking and social ties. If anything, corruption usually correlates with very strong families and extended families, not weak. You somehow suggest that:
a) self interest leads to corruption
b) self interest leads to low support of partners and life partners.
and hence you deduce: if there is high level of corruption in the country, it's an indicator that people don't keep strong ties with their partners. But this is a wrong conclusion. In fact, situation is exactly the opposite. Corruption cannot exist without very strong, decades long family and friends ties. As such, people usually do not leave their closest relatives in the moments of hardships. Because "wind" changes, victories are cyclical, whereas the networks remain.

Look at the recent case of Oksana Makar in Ukraine. The girl was raped, strangled, and burnt  by 3 young guys. She was burnt so badly that her backbone, hip joint, bones on hand and feet were exposed. Was found next day, taken to hospital, underwent multiple surgeries and several amputations, reported her attackers to police, and died last Thursday 20 days after the attack. Her attackers: 1 guy is a son of local politician and is active in politics himself, 1 guy is a son of ex-prosecutor. 1 is just a guy who wants to get closer to "elite." Third guy is married, has infant daughter. The wife of the third guy is in complete denial, and says "I will support him no matter what, he is not guilty because the victim must have provoked him." While the "friends of families" of the first two "elite" guys are doing everything possible and impossible to save them from conviction, the young wife of the third monster is sticking with him "at this moment of hardship." Not a single family member of the attackers turned their back on them. Some took the full blame and hide from aggravated neighbors, others - continue insisting that their boys are merely a victim of a horrible prostitute girl who provoked them and got those wonderful good boys into trouble. How dared she to live? How dared she not to die when they strangled and burnt her? Her life was useless anyway, and now the good wonderful boys have to suffer because of her.

[SANDRO43]

uh, what happened to the font size?  something magic going on here...

[Boethius]

and THAT is my point!


There seems to be a tendency, as read from these pages of RWD over time, to consider ourselves somehow better than them.  Yeah, now THAT is a basis from which to build a lasting relationship. 


Back to the topic:


Find that other half of your golden coin, and treat her exactly as such... not placing her on a pedestal, but with respect for both who she is and where she is from. IF one cannot find a way to muster the latter, he's pretty much doomed to failure.

uh, what happened to the font size?  something magic going on here...

Okay, different point, and I agree.  The L.A. riots, the Vancouver riots, and the debacle of Hurricane Katrina prove that is not the case.

But, I think the regulation of society is better here.



mies, Ed taught in Ukraine many years ago.  He is not there now.

I disagree that corruption is tied to strong family ties.  It is usually about enriching yourself at the expense of others.

[happyandstable]

THIS is more important than guys realize.  Firstly - the mentality of FSUW concerning familial roles is very different.  MOST (with whom I have communicated... too many to count over the years) don't get the concept of "equal partners". They just don't.  They just flat DON'T get it.  They may pretend they get it, but they don't.  They think it is silly.

LOLROTFPIMP

   The fallacy of your statement is glaring in front of you. I submit you are wrong they do understand it! I never said they agreed with it. The proof is in your own statement that they think it is silly. How can anyone think something about a thing they do not get??? To funny.

Just curious, isn't this what the majority of them American "feminazis" want? A truly equal life partner?

Just so we are clear your words not mine

Oh, I forgot. All AWs are fat pigs that wear sweatpants all the time while stuffing their faces.

Again your words. I have never said that about AW’s everyone is an individual case and should not be judge by others performance.

   Just because some individual’s lack the capacity to see beyond their knuckle dragging Neanderthal mind set, does not mean others share this trait. 

   So if any woman thinks that she is the weaker sex will she be willing to admit then that she is a second class citizen. I highly doubt that they would accept such and Idea. So then they do get the idea of equality it is just not all want or value it. Whether they are AW or FSUW, and any one who believes they are entitled to anything based just upon the gender of their birth IMHO will never make a good life partner.

[ECOCKS]

Gator, Ecocks has been hitting my nerve for a while. I am usually very calm, and patient, and can give benefit of a doubt to almost anyone for a veeeery long time. Most of my verbal attacks in this forum are merely a tease, or probing a person, I hardly ever mean most of the critical things I say, and overall I am a bubbly, soft and fuzzy woman. But even with me it is possible to reach the critical mass of intolerable comments and behavior. I believe if Ecocks is indeed teaching English in Ukraine, the "dialogues" and "probing" he does with his female (or male) students are indicators of his lack of professional academic and teaching ethics, and are completely unacceptable. I believe he does it in Ukraine only because he knows he can get away with it there, he won't be able to do the same thing in USA with American students.
I also believe in the power of proofs. Until now he has not presented any proofs, only is хмурит брови и надувает щеки с многозначительным видом. 


As for corruption - I fully agree that the level of corruption in Ukraine is huge and growing. It breaks my heart to see my country sinking deeper and deeper. Corruption is the extreme of "amoral familism" and super strong networking and social ties. If anything, corruption usually correlates with very strong families and extended families, not weak. You somehow suggest that:
a) self interest leads to corruption
b) self interest leads to low support of partners and life partners.
and hence you deduce: if there is high level of corruption in the country, it's an indicator that people don't keep strong ties with their partners. But this is a wrong conclusion. In fact, situation is exactly the opposite. Corruption cannot exist without very strong, decades long family and friends ties. As such, people usually do not leave their closest relatives in the moments of hardships. Because "wind" changes, victories are cyclical, whereas the networks remain.

Feeling's mutual since I wrote you off as an embarrassed apologist quite a bit ago Mies.

Your knowledge of my teaching is non-existent hence, just farting out your mouth.

It probably really does chap your butt though that students are so embarrassed and concerned by their country's culture (or lack therof) that they open up during discussions of law, ethics and career development to expats. Naughty little children to tell your people's "dirty little secrets" to outsiders, aren't they?

At least you provide some of the discerning men here a chance to understand some traits to avoid in their search for women.

[Boethius]

So if any woman thinks that she is the weaker sex will she be willing to admit then that she is a second class citizen.

A woman's weakness is her strength.

[mies]

.

[Muzh]

   Just because some individual’s lack the capacity to see beyond their knuckle dragging Neanderthal mind set, does not mean others share this trait. 

   So if any woman thinks that she is the weaker sex will she be willing to admit then that she is a second class citizen. I highly doubt that they would accept such and Idea. So then they do get the idea of equality it is just not all want or value it. Whether they are AW or FSUW, and any one who believes they are entitled to anything based just upon the gender of their birth IMHO will never make a good life partner.

Glad to hear your explanation. My apologies to YOU, but not to those which this message was directed.

[Daveman]

Wow, I simply cannot believe that you honestly think that Dave.
...

Ed, the methods/means that *human* corruption manifests itself simply evolve along with societal concepts such as the "rule of law" but human nature remains the same.  Would I prefer to live in 1920's chicago? Absolutely not.  Do I believe everyday life is better overall here than there? Sure I do.  Would I be somehow different if I were raised there as opposed to here? Possibly, even probably quite considerably. 


You lived there far longer than I.  I've lived there off an on for total of about a year and a half.  Yet, I am neither blind nor naive. I also see, in the majority of common people [size=78%]far more than merely "people from a corrupt society".  It is what it is. And they are who they are.  Some, even many and maybe most are just common everyday good people.. and even those are touched and tainted by the "class status" system.  It's like the mentality never actually changed from the Tzarist era.. merely placing different labels on their concepts of status.  [/size]


I don't think westerners differ so much in that regard either.. why does a doctor who treats a few thousand have so much more perceived "status" than say a farmer who feeds tens of thousands?  Education? Money? it certainly isn't character...  Society would collapse without farmers and truckers. Yet, they are "low class".  Doctors wouldn't be doctors without teachers. Yet teachers are certainly not at the upper echelon of societal ranking.


These marriages, if for love and family, result in a blended family with values instilled from both sides of the family.

[ECOCKS]

your language and rhetoric style prove over and over again that you are not a Teacher. Only pretend to be one, an over-confident amateur.

And again, you have not presented a single fact to support your claims.

As yours is tiresome, defensive and chauvinistic.

I clearly identify my opinions, anecdotes and interpretations.

Don't like my opinions or interpretations? Put me on Ignore.

Hey mods, I have no problem if you move this exchange over into NHB where the wannabe minnows can pretend to be sharks.

[Daveman]

LOLROTFPIMP

   The fallacy of your statement is glaring in front of you. I submit you are wrong they do understand it! I never said they agreed with it. The proof is in your own statement that they think it is silly. How can anyone think something about a thing they do not get??? To funny.

Elementary to anyone with experience with RW...   ANYTHING they don't get is silly, absurd, and stupid.   The fallacy is yours alone, Grasshopper... 

[happyandstable]

Glad to hear your explanation. My apologies to YOU, but not to those which this message was directed.

Accepted and appreciated (though I know who your intended audience was)

   I think we are all better served when we try to see the best in both of us.

Elementary to anyone with experience with RW...   ANYTHING they don't get is silly, absurd, and stupid.   The fallacy is yours alone, Grasshopper... 

   We will just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

[Daveman]

Accepted and appreciated (though I know who your intended audience was)

   I think we are all better served when we try to see the best in both of us.

   We will just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

And perhaps it is there ... where we achieve the real upper echelon of human character...