She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...

[Paulie]

An alarm system for a rented apartment? I have to say this account is getting odder and odder...

I am taking her need for security literally.   

All kidding aside, a single woman living on a ground floor in Istanbul is not safe.  What is so odd about an alarm system?  Or maybe I am just providing to many details in this post.  Oh well, sit back and enjoy the tale.  LOL. 

[Gator]

I have two issues I would like to discuss with you:  INITIAL MOVE: How did your wife support herself when she moved to be with you?  Did she immediately find work?  Did you provide any level of support while she gained traction in her new environment? 

RW have an outstanding work ethic.  Given time I believe most will do well.  However, very few RW are able to support themselves when they first move to America. 
 
JB's wife quickly obtained a position teaching math at the local university; however, she had highest qualifications.  English proficiency could be a problem.  My ex-wife spoke English well and after obtaining her realtor's license, she found a position.  That took over a year.
 
Professionals (medical, accounting, engineering, etc.) would have to take a minimal position until they have obtained the necessary license.   If you own a business or have good contacts you might be able to arrange something.  But enough to support themselves?
 

DIVORCE:  What if after bringing your wife to the USA, things didn't work out?  What would you do then?  Would you be responsible for her financial welfare, especially given that the US has some very strict community property issues? 

You can not import a wife and then discard her penniless without a way to support herself.  So you need a prenup.  See your local attorney. 
 
A prenup will need to protect both parties and be reasonable in awards; otherwise, a judge will likely dismiss it.   A prenup will address death as well as divorce, and  death provisions should not conflict with your estate plan.  If there is a conflict, I understand the prenup takes precedence.  Also, keep in mind that a prenup can smooth if not accelerate the legal proceedings if you two decide to divorce.

[Paulie]

So Paulie she struggles to pay her rent but she has some cash hidden in the apartement. Did you help her to replace this money, how many was it ?

How is it possible to not pay an owner and keep cash in the apartment ?

Hey Patagonie,  She was just paid by her clients and it was about $2,500.  She usually pays cash for her rent and other incidentals like gas, electric and food.  Not unusual to me. 

I did offer to help her with her rent, about $1,000. 

[Paulie]

In Paulie's first post, he offered a total of 5k allowance to take care of his woman and her daughter's education which is 3k a month. I'm assuming he offered that to make the marriage happened sooner. His lady is most likely the one that wants to wait till daughter graduates in March 2014. If she leaves everything now, she has to trust Paulie to get her daughter through the last year of education. If he doesn't keep his word, it will be a disaster for both ladies.

I understand the lady's need to take care of daughter but she should ask Paulie to put one year worth of cash in a trust account that can only be touched for educational purposes instead of an apartment in her name before marriage which she keeps regardless if the marriage lasts a day.

Now that Paulie will wait till Mar 2014 to advance the relationship, that is a good thing and the update on this story will be clearer if things improved or got worse.

Personally I wouldn't put myself in a situation where money gets in the way of love. If I was a financially secure person marrying another financially secure person, there wouldn't be any talk of either side getting an allowance in marriage.  When it comes to money, Paulie's girl is not his equal.

If I talked to a girl about marriage and she said she needed a year to think about it for whatever reason, I would keep friendly relations with her while she thinks and date other women. I'm not sure how exclusive Paulie is with his lady but if he gives himself the opportunity to see other women are, he may find someone that doesn't give him any worries with money, trust, or love.

Hey Billy,  Just to be clear, I offered $5K inclusive of her daughter's education expenses.  As for her leaving now, this is not possible.  She feels an obligation to her students as they prepare for competition.  The decision now is for her to come live with me during the summer months (July, August) while her students are on vacation.  During this time together, we will determine how to integrate our financial matters.

It is looking like she will try to maintain her business here in Istanbul by turning it over to one of her employees and paying her more.  Then, she will travel back and forth while she begins to build a similar business in the US.  (This woman has too much energy to sit at home.) 

The idea of waiting until March 2014 has plenty of merit: 1) Her daughter graduates and the focus turns from her daughter to us, 2) Her overhead is reduced by $3K, 3) She can begin to think about how to extricate herself from her Istanbul business, 4) She can start focusing on her business in the US, 5) She and I will have developed more trust around several issues. 

Lastly, you are on point in your last paragraph.  In fact, we both agreed to wait one year.  I am unsure if I want to date anyone else at this point, though I am thinking about it.

Thanks for your clarity as always!

Paulie 

[Gator]

Again, I need to remind everyone that it was me who put that $5K number out there. 

That puts you in a quandary.   NEVER  promise something to a RW and later renege.   The fury such will create can not be described in a few words. 
 
Instead of a fixed amount, you should say 1) she will enjoy the same lifestyle as you (clothing, food, car, healthcare, etc.),  2) you will support her daughter until she graduates and gets settled into a job,  and  3) you will help, finance and mentor her starting a business.    Item 1 does not need a budget as you will pay whatever it takes.  Item 2 and 3) surely are less than $5k, especially if the daughter graduates next year.   Item 3 needs a business plan and a budget,  and the two of you could develop both this summer. 
 
This exercise will show whether she is reasonable, and it should demonstrate your sincerity, commitment and trustworthiness.  Doing the above should negate the need for such a large allowance (she does need pocket money) and allow the two of you to reach an understanding more typical of AM-RW marriages of the RWD posters.

[Gator]

In fact, we both agreed to wait one year. 

If you decide in one year to marry, it will be two years from now before you are living together in America.    A fiancee visa will take almost a year from preparation to approval.  And she can not legally enter America while waiting.  Do not plan on getting married while here on a tourist visa and staying.  She would need to return to Turkey and await a spousal visa (also about one year). 
 
 

I am unsure if I want to date anyone else at this point, though I am thinking about it.

This indicates this woman is not for you.  If with the woman best for you, you will not think about other women. 

[Gator]

First before whom? Or what?

She is first, he is second.  Her needs come first, not his (assuming her needs are reasonable  ).  He is not a self-absorbed, solipsistic, egotist.   This does not mean he lies down and lets her walk over him.

[Misha]

[size=78%]What is so odd about an alarm system?  [/size]

Perhaps things are different in Turkey, but in Canada I have yet to see anybody install an alarm in an apartment that they rent. In most cases the landlord would not allow it as the alarm system is wired in and if the next tenant does not want it they then have to take it out...


But, I expect that you will pay for the alarm and you will reimburse her for the money that she lost... I would say though that it is quite the coincidence that the break-in happened just before you arrived and that she had to call the police while you were on Skype...

[newjason]

Some how you think that for women to understand you you have to punish them.

+1
I was thinking the exact same thing.
You are never going to teach her a lesson or make her understand the err of her ways.

I am here in Istanbul and I am giving this one last try.  She does have redeeming qualities and that has kept me coming back.  But unless she sees what she is doing, I am done.   More to follow.  Again, thank you.

I may be over stepping my bounds here but after reading the last few days of your posts I need to ask..
Are you in an intimate relationship with this woman?
If the woman I was courting had her apartment broken into, I'd be right beside her, not watching the whole incident on a webcam feed.

May I ask, does she allow you to sleep with her and make yourself at home in her apartment, or do you need to leave when she leaves?

Paulie, you seem like a decent guy.
So, I will just lay out for you.

If you want to know what this woman will be like to live with in a marriage, you can do so, right now.

I would have a nice long chat with her Ex.
... maybe over a bottle of Ale and some salo.

I'm sure he can give you a better insight than anyone else possibly can.

Keep an open mind and open ears and remember
This guy had the position you are considering...


Soneone from this group (can't recall who just now)once said :

It's much easier to find a good woman than it is to  try and fix a bad one...




ohhhh

NEVER  promise something to a RW and later renege.   The fury such will create can not be described in a few words.

Gator is SOOO right about this!
I think everyone will agree.
You may not view an offer as a PROMISE, but it is one and the same thing as you will soon learn.

[flitabout62]

Sorry, I was going to say she needs more time to trust you until I read how much financially you've supported her.  Honestly, my opinion is you should provide support only for the relationship.  Ie maybe provide support for SMS messages or internet, etc.  She should try to provide some of her own way for vacations - purchase her own tickets, etc.   I think her perspective now is that She's gotten so much from you already, why  not ask for more?  I think you may have gone off track with her and now she has focused on material things instead of a relationship with you.  Time to start fresh in my humble opinion. 

[GQBlues]

In light of recent revelation I can no longer say threads like this is strange 

1. You only have two options. You either meet her demands or you don't 
2. A woman in love will go to the ends of the world with/for you.  Because of you.
3. A career minded woman who also have fallen for a man will have the mental faculties to determine how to accommodate her situation with everyone's best interest in mind.

2&3 above only suggest to me you are nothing more than her temporary means and method to her grander life's plan.

While I cannot readily object to a fsuw's apprehension and skepticism about their suitors, considering the class of men (SRMs) that populate the MOB , there still need to be a clear indication the YOU are the principle cause of her present life deliberation. Based on your posts, I do not see that at all.

If its enough for you to hear the cheers of your peers and to pretend this certain someone considers you her significant other, then move according to her demands. There are members here who bought their mates exactly in the same fashion like yours. So don't think yourself unique. The worst that can happen is you both gets tired of it all and break it off  and just took yourselves for a temporary ride and she gets her cheque$ and you get to go back to FSU and buy yourself a new long term care plan. That's all....

You're only 50 and quite fit so I'm not sure why you're trying so hard to be an SRM.

Happy shopping!

[Patagonie]

In Paulie's first post, he offered a total of 5k allowance to take care of his woman and her daughter's education which is 3k a month. I'm assuming he offered that to make the marriage happened sooner. His lady is most likely the one that wants to wait till daughter graduates in March 2014. If she leaves everything now, she has to trust Paulie to get her daughter through the last year of education. If he doesn't keep his word, it will be a disaster for both ladies.


I understand the lady's need to take care of daughter but she should ask Paulie to put one year worth of cash in a trust account that can only be touched for educational purposes instead of an apartment in her name before marriage which she keeps regardless if the marriage lasts a day.


Now that Paulie will wait till Mar 2014 to advance the relationship, that is a good thing and the update on this story will be clearer if things improved or got worse.


Personally I wouldn't put myself in a situation where money gets in the way of love. If I was a financially secure person marrying another financially secure person, there wouldn't be any talk of either side getting an allowance in marriage.  When it comes to money, Paulie's girl is not his equal.


If I talked to a girl about marriage and she said she needed a year to think about it for whatever reason, I would keep friendly relations with her while she thinks and date other women. I'm not sure how exclusive Paulie is with his lady but if he gives himself the opportunity to see other women are, he may find someone that doesn't give him any worries with money, trust, or love.

+5


Paulie, BillyB is right, the minimum  is to offer her the payment of daughter's studies and a personal allowance. It is your job to find a solution, especially if you want her to come before her daughter will have finished her studies. This is fair and understable IMHO.

[TheTraveler]

She lost some business...this happens.  She is not focusing on her business as much because she spends too much time on Skype with me.

she actually told you her drop off in business is due to spending too much time with you on skype?

for such a supposedly *strong* woman... she sure knows how to play the victim!

[ML]

I think everyone will agree.
You may not view an offer as a PROMISE, but it is one and the same thing as you will soon learn.

It can go even further, with some.  Maybe we should do X,Y,Z or let's think about X, Y, Z.

YOU PROMISED WE WOULD DO X, Y, Z.

[Gator]

If its enough for you to hear the cheers of your peers and to pretend this certain someone considers you her significant other, then move according to her demands.

Who's cheering?  Everyone is dismayed.   I believe every RWD man has expressed  that Paulie needs to stop the relationship, some more directly than others.   Nevertheless.......[brace yourself so as to not fall out of your chair]......... I agree with your overall assessment.   
 
If you are still coherent, consider the following.   His OP was whether to buy her a $100,000 flat.  He now recognizes that is crazy.   He did not question his proposed $5,000 monthly allowance.  Hopefully he now appreciates that an allowance for anything but pocket money is unwise, except that he was the one who proposed it.  What other notions will he rid himself of?
 
Paulie is making progress, yet he has not terminated the relationship.  He has sent me a few PM's which suggest there is possibly more to the situation than what one can garner from posts, even posts as candid as his.    Or maybe it is "lipstick on a pig."   I don't know. 
 
I expected him to walk away during his current trip to Istanbul.  He has not, and instead has decided to invite her to his home for a couple of months.      Given that, I feel we can still help him as he learns more.
 
And if you have managed to get yourself back into your chair after I agreed with you, here's another one.   Wait for it....wait....wait....... My constructive advice may not be helpful.  Maybe what he really needs are more slaps in the face such as made by you and Traveler.      I thought his commitment was high until I read his comment about possibly dating other women.  That comment says it soon will be over.

[Gator]

she actually told you her drop off in business is due to spending too much time with you on skype?

for such a supposedly *strong* woman... she sure knows how to play the victim!

Good catch.  Not much gets by you. 

[Faux Pas]

Perhaps things are different in Turkey, but in Canada I have yet to see anybody install an alarm in an apartment that they rent. In most cases the landlord would not allow it as the alarm system is wired in and if the next tenant does not want it they then have to take it out...


But, I expect that you will pay for the alarm and you will reimburse her for the money that she lost... I would say though that it is quite the coincidence that the break-in happened just before you arrived and that she had to call the police while you were on Skype...

It's not that far fetched or unusual Misha. I would think it was based more on a matter of need as opposed to own/buy/rent. Alarm systems don't devalue a property.

[Tulip]

The idea of waiting until March 2014 has plenty of merit: 1) Her daughter graduates and the focus turns from her daughter to us, 2) Her overhead is reduced by $3K, 3) She can begin to think about how to extricate herself from her Istanbul business, 4) She can start focusing on her business in the US, 5) She and I will have developed more trust around several issues.

I have read all your posts. And what I think about both of you is that there are no true feelings between you and her. You are both always counting money - you count yours and she counts hers. As for her.. Because of such women all you guys think that all Russian ( Ukrainian ) women need only your money. You both seem to be going to build a business-company, not a family. I don't see any feelings. It looks like a partnership and you both look like partners, but not like people that love each other. Saying more, you both look like partners who don't trust each other. How long do you think will exist your "business-company"?  I am sure not for long time. As soon as some problems appear, it will be over. Maybe even earlier. You wrote that you would do nothing ( to give her money ) before her daughter would have graduated. Are you afraid that she will spend some your money for her daughter? You have forgotten that if you have a woman with her daughter and you love this woman, you have all of them. You have to accept her daughter too. And a woman ( not this one ) who loves you will go with you everywhere without any guarantees.

[Eduard]

******************************Edited for shameless Promotion****************
Ed

[Faux Pas]

Hi, I take it that you are still married.  :-)  I am on the same page with everything you are saying.  Again, I need to remind everyone that it was me who put that $5K number out there. 

As I said in a post right before this one - my position is now this:  I have no intention of doing anything for a year at which time her daughter graduates. This expense is her biggest burden.  She made a commitment to her daughter to see her through graduation.  (I will do the same for my son when he goes to college.) 

The main issue I would have to deal with is the need for a pre-nup in the event something DOES happen.  I can ill-afford to have half of my assets wiped out if I re-marry and then wind up in another divorce proceeding.  Honestly, Faux Paux I do not know what the pre-nup would look like.  And that would happen with an American woman as well. 

These posts have taught me more than I could imagine.  I appreciate your comments.

Paul

Paulie, yup, still married and very happy 

I remember clearly it was you that put the 5-6K a month figure on the table. At the time you seemed to be "okay" with buying her some property, if that is what it took. My only caution to you is to put the brakes on that relationship, get out of the financial and into the emotional. Can you say with complete certainty that if you are a pauper tomorrow, this woman will be at your side? If that answer is no, then you have some relationship to build or you do need to move on.

Paulie, I don't have a fortune or even considerable assets to guard. I wouldn't know what a pre-nup looks like either. God forbid, if my wife got fed up with me tomorrow and left, she gets half of what I have and I will not fret. I have been down that road 20 years ago. I was no better or worse for it. It's just money and stuff to me. I knew the ramifications going in to the marriage with that one and now this one. I didn't plan that either would fail. If my wife had mentioned a word of "failed marriage" "security" parachute, I have left her standing there like my ass was on fire.

If the relationship isn't built on the same mutual trust and respect for each other, it hasn't a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding. IMHO, when you plan to fail, you do.

[Brianinaz]

I have two issues I would like to discuss with you:  INITIAL MOVE: How did your wife support herself when she moved to be with you?  Did she immediately find work?  Did you provide any level of support while she gained traction in her new environment? 
DIVORCE:  What if after bringing your wife to the USA, things didn't work out?  What would you do then?  Would you be responsible for her financial welfare, especially given that the US has some very strict community property issues? 

Paulie,
Hi, to answer your questions, I have fully supported her since she moved here. In her situation in order to practice law she would have to repeat law school here from scratch and well as complete any of the prerequisites that were not part of her degrees from Ukraine. She didn't really want to do that. That leaves basically low paying unskilled jobs as her option. Financially the addition of a $10 an hour salary Isn't going to change my situation that much so there wasn't a "need" for her to do that. For the first year or so she just kind of settled in, learned to drive (no small task), and concentrated on her English. Since then she has started taking courses with the intention of getting a degree in accounting. I guess there are some people who begin working soon after they arrive but it's difficult. Unless they are very proficient in English when they arrive, language is a huge stumbling block. Also they cannot work legally without permanent residency or a work visa (there are probably some other avenues available but I never fully explored it). I guess a lot depends on where you live (large urban, the burbs, rural) and if she has to work to float the boat. As for the mechanics of the finances to be honest the first couple of months were a little bumpy. Regardless of how much Skype time you have and the 4, 5, 6 or 7 one or two week trips you take you really don't know each other that well. With all the horror stories out there on both sides of the aisle it takes a while (or at least it did for me) to get comfortable with the fact that are no secondary intentions and it's just a good genuine relationship.
 
Anyway she has a debit card to the account that we use for household expenses, a credit card for online purchases and other stuff and a checking account for spending cash. When she runs out of cash she lets me know and I deposit more. There's no set pattern or amount to it. To be honest I've never sat down and figured out how much she spends. She buy's stuff (school stuff, kid clothes, stuff for the house) for her daughter and my kids out of those monies. How much does she spend on herself? I don't know maybe a couple hundred dollars a month I would guess. If I had to sum it all up I would say pretty much what you would expect in any  "normal" family. It's the same basic setup as I had with my ex-wife who was a stay at home mom. I guess the point I'm trying to make is there was/is no negotiated financial arrangement where she said I want this, this, and this. That would have made me very uncomfortable and probably would have been a deal killer for me.
 
Divorce...just a sucky deal all the way around. We never talked about it. It's a big topic so my two cents won't be all inclusive. If we were to have split up early on I'm sure she would have gone back to Ukraine. Her company really didn't want her to leave so I'm sure she could have walked right back into her old job. In that case I would have helped her out to get re-settled. If we were to split up now I think she would probably still go back to Ukraine but I could be wrong. Again I don't think she would have a hard time finding a good job if she did. That would not be the usual situation however. In general terms the financial impact of a divorce depends a lot on the state you live in. You live in California which I understand is a pretty sh**** place to get divorced. In most places that are community property states the rule is you split all assets ACQUIRED AFTER THE MARRIAGE. What you had going into the marriage you leave with. The length of the marriage also plays a role. At least here in Arizona there won't be alimony awarded in a marriage lasting less than 5 years, 5-10 years often not but there is variability, and more than 10 years and you're probably on the hook. For me personally it depends on the particulars. If I were to end the marriage say because I met someone else then I would feel some responsibility. If the situation were reversed my feeling would be don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. I know very little about you but you seem to have more than living from pay check to pay check so my advise to you would be to speak to a good divorce lawyer in your area and get the details laid out for you whether it's with this lady or another. Also remember you are potentially on the hook for supporting her for 10+ years in the amount of 125% of the federal poverty line just by bringing her here. Again good luck to you.
 
Brian
 

[Misha]

And a woman ( not this one ) who loves you will go with you everywhere without any guarantees.

   That pretty much sums it up. The main guarantee that my wife needed was to ensure that I loved her. She did "test" me on that front, and once she was certain of my feelings, she had no fears to leave her job and everything else behind to be with me.

[Eduard]

   That pretty much sums it up. The main guarantee that my wife needed was to ensure that I loved her. She did "test" me on that front, and once she was certain of my feelings, she had no fears to leave her job and everything else behind to be with me.

***edited***

[jone]

I have read all your posts. And what I think about both of you is that there are no true feelings between you and her. You are both always counting money - you count yours and she counts hers. As for her.. Because of such women all you guys think that all Russian ( Ukrainian ) women need only your money. You both seem to be going to build a business-company, not a family. I don't see any feelings. It looks like a partnership and you both look like partners, but not like people that love each other. Saying more, you both look like partners who don't trust each other. How long do you think will exist your "business-company"?  I am sure not for long time. As soon as some problems appear, it will be over. Maybe even earlier. You wrote that you would do nothing ( to give her money ) before her daughter would have graduated. Are you afraid that she will spend some your money for her daughter? You have forgotten that if you have a woman with her daughter and you love this woman, you have all of them. You have to accept her daughter too. And a woman ( not this one ) who loves you will go with you everywhere without any guarantees.

Tulip,

First I would like to welcome you to the forum.  Your thoughts are well thought out and well articulated.  We welcome anyone here, but especially a Ukrainian woman because half of the equation in most relationships include a woman.   

When I was young, my grandmother, who had been widowed for fifteen years, met and married a man slightly older than herself.  Now, we all knew that my grandmother's love and energy was all directed at my mother and, to a lesser degree, ourselves.    While she married someone who was successful - and she received retired teacher's pay - a lot of thought was put into the financials before their marriage.  His estate, should he have died before her, was to pay for her ongoing support, but that his home would be sold, etc. and his heirs were to get the money that was originally promised to them.  As our family (the only offspring of my grandmother) did not need to inherit his money, all seemed agreeable. 

The couple liked each other very much.  Whether there was love there, initially, I cannot tell.  But I do know that as the years went on, and 'Grandpa Bob' was accepted into the family, we saw him as both a welcome addition, and to some extent, a savior for our grandmother.  I often times traveled to visit with them.  I could see that there was love that had developed there and that she had chosen well, in someone who would care for her throughout her sunset years.

My point is that having someone to live with, even though it is not the initial love of your life, if you are well yoked (a farmer's term - it means if the relationship is not mismatched) then love will probably follow.

Not having lived to their age, I cannot discern the differences between having a love while younger or finding someone when older and trying to make it work.  But I do not begrudge anyone for trying.  I have seen much wisdom come from Paul.  He has listened to that which was presented to him from us and has altered his stance without telling the lady that she is not the one.  I am hoping that he finds his love, if not through this lady, then further down the road.

[Belvis]

IMO this woman is seeking an arrangement, not a loving relationship. It would be wise for the OP to understand what he is getting himself into...

OP has no illusions towards this woman. And she's not so bad as it seems at the first look of outsiders. Problem is that not many men (including me) can handle such type of independent, strong-minded  self-made women with high self-esteem. The problem is as for OP as for her too, for her even to a larger extent.  Is it worth of pain in the ass? Only OP is able to decide about potential reward.