Not Russian Custom

[jb]

I collect cameras, old cameras, antique cameras, unusual cameras, I have a passion for fine cameras.  All of my cameras are shooters, I can put film in any of them and go out and shoot pictures.  Some are so old I have the shop hard to find the correct film size, but some of the old medium and large format cameras do the best jobs.  I have a lot of cameras and everybody knows, they can look, but do not touch, jb's cameras.

Both my step-sons were given cameras by me, my wife has been given a couple, (35mm and digital), different cameras by me.   To my way of thinking, a camera is a very personal item, given reasonable care, a good camera can last it's owner a long time, giving good serviceable pictures.

I reiterate, I don't think there is anything wrong with a camera as a gift, providing of course, the person receiving the gift needs a camera and likes taking pictures.  So,,, IMHO, the gift was a good one.   I think you have to look at the relationship of the gift giver and the gift receiver for the source of the conflict.  In my experience, giving and receiving, exchanging gifts with people I love or care about is a joyful thing, even gag gifts are a source of fun and enjoyment.  OTOH, getting a gift from someone I don't especially care for makes me feel uncomfortable, as if it somehow obligates to like them and I feel guilty if I don't.  

I can only surmise the relationship needs work, not the choice of gifts.

[Elen]

Why did you stik to CAMERA??

 It was not about the CAMERA It was about he didn't know, or din't care what SHE wanted like a gift

Is not an idea to think what people would want to get like a gift for birthday in American custom?

[KenC]

I dunno Clyde,

There was always one of us that was designated as the "photographer" of the family and we got along with only one camera.  Although I did recently pick up a second camera for my work as Lena is the "keeper of the photos" in our family.  She coordinated the computer files, prints, albums and regularly sends jpegs to Momma.  But the Olympus 5.2 megapixle for $70 at Office Depot was too good to pass up.

This is not to minimize what happened between the two of you though.  In a marriage you need to talk things out like this.  There will be future disapointments in your gifts selections for sure.  But it doesn't mean that you didn't give it your best.  Your wife needs to know how you came to select the camera for her.  Ask her how she thinks you made an error in judgement.  At the same time convey to her how her actions made you feel.  This is how you progress through a good marriage.  To ignore things like this is not the way to go.  In the "big picture", this is a very small bump in the road and it is best to keep it small or eliminate it altogether and move on.

KenC

[PeeWee]

Peewee 

[jb]

Elen wrote;

Why did you stik to CAMERA??   It was not about the CAMERA It was about he didn't know, or din't care what SHE wanted like a gift  Is not an idea to think what people would want to get like a gift for birthday in American custom?

Elen, it's not necessarily just about a "CAMERA".  It's about buying someone a nice gift.  Although the prices have come down in recent months, a decent digital camera still involves the outlay of pretty serious cash, for example, a Nikon DS-70 with a good lens can run between $1,200-1,500, similarily a top-of-the-line Canon will also cost a ton.  Even if Clyde bought a middle of the road camera at Best Buy or Circuit City Discount House, he is right to be hurt if he plunked down anywhere between $300-500 bucks for a gift for someone he cared about and they denigrated it as an inappropriate present.

That would mean  to me that they had very little regard for the feelings of the person giving them a nice present.

[PeeWee]

Why did you stik to CAMERA?? It was not about the CAMERA It was about he didn't know, or din't care what SHE wanted like a gift Is not an idea to think what people would want to get like a gift for birthday in American custom?

Elen, it's not necessarily just about a "CAMERA".  It's about buying someone a nice gift.  Although the prices have come down in recent months, a decent digital camera still involves the outlay of pretty serious cash, for example, a Nikon DS-70 with a good lens can run between $1,200-1,500, similarily a top-of-the-line Canon will also cost a ton.  Even if Clyde bought a middle of the road camera at Best Buy or Circuit City Discount House, he is right to be hurt if he plunked down anywhere between $300-500 bucks for a gift for someone he cared about and they denigrated it as an inappropriate present.

That would mean to me that they had very little regard for the feelings of the person giving them a nice present.
[/quote]
We have heard time and again that Russians are pragmatic people. I think that we sometimes admire that in them. But I think to that in their enthusiasm to be the pragmaic souls that they are they sometimes inadvertantly block out the compasionate part or their souls. In otherwords they make the wrong choice of reation. Thus seeming inappropiate for the moment. I cited my experience in gift giving. The giving of the book was not a gift but my offer to buy a dress in Hong Kong was a gift. Somethings are gifts and some are not, depending on the flavor of the moment, it seems.

Peewee

[Daknack]

Peewee

[/quote]This is a case in which I disagree with Elena.  Looking at the facts, Clyde's judgement and choice of gift were sound.  His wife as he said enjoys photographs and considers them sacred.  It is clear that he was thinking about what SHE would like not about "family gifts" or other such non-sense.  He also did not chose an el-cheapo camera, and it was likely a damn nice camera.  That shows some thought into not only the gift, but which camera someone will choose.Elena I dont think you understand the spoiling dynamic that the men are talking about.  No man I know here ever buys something for his wife just two times a year.  Those are simply obigitory gifts.  What the men here are talking about is a gift in a series of gifts that causes a poor reactation and is often the same or similar reaction to anytime a husband buys something for a wife.  Often they become less and less satisfied with the smaller gifts and they are veiwed as "substandard".Next time we talk, Ill explain this more clearly.Additionally, this is not a RW trait.  It is a female trait (although of course it is not all women).  It how warm blooded females of nearly all species are.  They judge mates on the resources available.  It is biologically built into them.  It is sorta like how men are designed to desire the youngest and most able to bear young.  So being materialistic is as natural to women as shoes, crying, and shopping.  Of course thats not to excuse it (any more then we would excuse someone cheating on his wife with a young hot thing).  I am guessing I will now get the firing squad for daring to generalize about women.... Blindfold and drumroll please... :shock:

[Daknack]

Why did you stik to CAMERA?? It was not about the CAMERA It was about he didn't know, or din't care what SHE wanted like a gift Is not an idea to think what people would want to get like a gift for birthday in American custom?

Elen, it's not necessarily just about a "CAMERA". It's about buying someone a nice gift. Although the prices have come down in recent months, a decent digital camera still involves the outlay of pretty serious cash, for example, a Nikon DS-70 with a good lens can run between $1,200-1,500, similarily a top-of-the-line Canon will also cost a ton. Even if Clyde bought a middle of the road camera at Best Buy or Circuit City Discount House, he is right to be hurt if he plunked down anywhere between $300-500 bucks for a gift for someone he cared about and they denigrated it as an inappropriate present.That would mean to me that they had very little regard for the feelings of the person giving them a nice present.[/quote]We have heard time and again that Russians are pragmatic people. I think that we sometimes admire that in them. But I think to that in their enthusiasm to be the pragmaic souls that they are they sometimes inadvertantly block out the compasionate part or their souls. In otherwords they make the wrong choice of reation. Thus seeming inappropiate for the moment. I cited my experience in gift giving. The giving of thebook was not a gift but my offer to buy a dress in Hong Kong was a gift. Somethings are gifts and some are not, depending on the flavor of the moment, it seems.Peewee[/quote]I suggest buying her a dictionary as your next gift.  Earmark "gift" because I am pretty sure it will say something like "Anything which is given as an act of good will".

[Bruno]

I suggest buying her a dictionary as your next gift.  Earmark "gift" because I am pretty sure it will say something like "Anything which is given as an act of good will".

gift (plural: gifts) [list=1]

• something given to another voluntarily, without charge[/*]
• a talent or natural ability[/*]
• something gained incidentally, without effort[/*]

A gift or present is the transfer of money, goods, etc., without the direct compensation that is involved in trade, although possibly involving a social expectation of reciprocity, or a return in the form of prestige or power. In many human societies, the act of mutually exchanging gifts contributes to social cohesion. Economists have elaborated the economics of gift-giving into the notion of a gift economy.

[Elen]

Why did you stik to CAMERA?? It was not about the CAMERA It was about he didn't know, or din't care what SHE wanted like a gift Is not an idea to think what people would want to get like a gift for birthday in American custom?

Elen, it's not necessarily just about a "CAMERA".  It's about buying someone a nice gift.  Although the prices have come down in recent months, a decent digital camera still involves the outlay of pretty serious cash, for example, a Nikon DS-70 with a good lens can run between $1,200-1,500, similarily a top-of-the-line Canon will also cost a ton.  Even if Clyde bought a middle of the road camera at Best Buy or Circuit City Discount House, he is right to be hurt if he plunked down anywhere between $300-500 bucks for a gift for someone he cared about and they denigrated it as an inappropriate present.

That would mean to me that they had very little regard for the feelings of the person giving them a nice present.
[/quote]

 First of all it's HER party as it's HER birthday but not Clyde's. So HER feelings should be put on first place.

Secondary nice gift is a gift wich was choosen with a though not to buy a nice ( from males viewpoint in addition ) thing but that one which she wanted. He could ask at least if he didn't know. What he has done looked rather like he cared mostly about absent of camera in a family.

So that would mean to me that he either just have little idea how to give gifts or he cared little ( or was too sure thinking that he know) what she would think about his gift 

Thirdly being a wife of photograph I 'm fine aware about prices for cameras:P and got one for my birthday some time ago and said thank for that ( though a camera was in my list with wanted gifts . So everybody got what they wanted.)

So you may keep a hope that you would be able to learn your Russian wives to say  thanks for unwanted gifts with a big american smile ( wich would cover their dissapontment in your gift). And trust me that dissapointment would return to you in one or other way. Or you though would try to find ways how to find out what women want. Or you may divorce if you can't solve such little problem being stuborn like donkeys.


PS I'm speaking about birthday and those few days in a year when Russian spoiled women (that what you were talking about) used to recive gifts

 

[Son of Clyde]

I have a funny and possibly a true story.

Mel Brooks was a comedy writer on the Sid Caesar program "Your Show of Shows."

One afternoon Mel and Sid are in a rowboat in Central Park discussing the program  when suddenly Mel says "Sid, give me your wallet." Sid obliges because he does not want to be dumped in the river and he thinks Mel is a crazy person.

A few days later is Sid's birthday and Mel gives Sid the wallet as a birthday present.

[Maxx]

I  consider SOC like a brother probably because he and I are similar in many ways. As example we are both feeling around trying to figure out what is the best course is with this whole RW business. Perhaps it's just trying to figure out women in general. Clyde spent 55 years as a bacholar and I spent 27 of my adult years married to an AW who was no mystery. 

Why is to give a gift few times in a year ( in Russia it's 2 official holidays, birthday and some your annivercity) such "spoiling" business??

 

My understanding of Clyde's situation is he puts his wife first. She gets the best he has. As example she got a late model car and he kept the years older model. It is the way he wanted it. Why? because he likes giving to her the very best he has or can get. Do you think his gift giving stops with a car? So when you step back and look at the big picture with him or most of you should any of these RW give us grief over an inappropiate gift at their birthdays? In the words of one infamous RW who most of you want me never to mention, "If you want a Russian wife you must pay" and pay we do. As in attractive late model cars, university educations for their children, money wired home for in-law family emergencies, shoes, INS costs, wardrobe changes, diners out, travel back home for them, shoes, travel to show them our beautiful and beloved country, health insurance costs, shoes, toys for the kids, glasses/contact lenses, did I mention shoes and boots?, Victoria Secrets and the list goes on and on. IMO RW should drop to their knees, bend over and kiss our feet in gratitude.

I am surprised none of you asked SOC what happened to the camera?

Maxx

[catzenmouse]

I am surprised none of you asked SOC what happened to the camera?

Maxx

It was asked by a couple of us. SoC wrote that he would tell more in a future post.

Ken

[Daknack]

Why did you stik to CAMERA?? It was not about the CAMERA It was about he didn't know, or din't care what SHE wanted like a gift Is not an idea to think what people would want to get like a gift for birthday in American custom?

Elen, it's not necessarily just about a "CAMERA". It's about buying someone a nice gift. Although the prices have come down in recent months, a decent digital camera still involves the outlay of pretty serious cash, for example, a Nikon DS-70 with a good lens can run between $1,200-1,500, similarily a top-of-the-line Canon will also cost a ton. Even if Clyde bought a middle of the road camera at Best Buy or Circuit City Discount House, he is right to be hurt if he plunked down anywhere between $300-500 bucks for a gift for someone he cared about and they denigrated it as an inappropriate present.That would mean to me that they had very little regard for the feelings of the person giving them a nice present.[/quote]First of all it'sHER party as it'sHER birthday but not Clyde's. SoHER feelings should be puton first place.Secondary nice gift is a gift wich was choosen with a though not to buy anice ( from males viewpoint in addition ) thing but that one which she wanted. He could ask at least if he didn't know. What he has done looked rather like he cared mostly about absent of camera in a family.So that would mean to me that he either just have little idea how to give gifts or he cared little ( or was too sure thinking that he know) what she would think about his giftThirdly being a wife of photograph I 'm fine aware about prices for cameras:Pand got one for my birthday some time agoand said thank for that ( thougha camerawas in my list with wanted gifts. So everybody got what they wanted.)So you may keep a hope that you would be able tolearn yourRussian wives to say thanks for unwanted gifts with a big american smile ( wich would cover their dissapontment in your gift). And trust me that dissapointment would return to you in one or other way. Or you though would try to find ways how to find out what women want. Or you may divorce if you can't solve such little problem being stuborn like donkeys.PS I'm speaking about birthday and those few days in a year when Russian spoiled women (that what you were talking about) used to recive gifts[/quote]Helen, because it is someones birthday doesnt mean they have to be disagreeable.  It is clear he DID think of a gift for her because she likes photos they are important to her and the camera was broken and thus his gift was choosen by something that would would WANT.  I know Clyde personally and there is no way someone would have gotten the impression that he was concerned about the loss of the original camera.  I think you might have to know him personally to understand this.  If his thinking was "too sure" a more appropriate way of handling said situation is to be gracious, smile the big american smile, and next year offer some suggestions of what you want.  I think your just being a bit stubborn about this situation because of yor photography phobia At anyrate to Maxx, I didnt ask what happened as Im sure he will either tell me in time, or that it was set somewhere he didnt see it or whatnot.

[Son of Clyde]

I am surprised none of you asked SOC what happened to the camera?

Maxx

It was asked by a couple of us. SoC wrote that he would tell more in a future post.

Ken
[/quote]Still is a mystery but it apparently has not been tossed out.

[Maxx]

I can see that SOC doesn't need this past incident to flair up with too much reveiled online information. I just get rather defensive when I see RW pushing their men into corners.

I would still like to know what is your opinion on the proper handling of a RW who puts her man into a corner? Arguing back and holding your ground as Chipmonk via Ronin suggests? Or not getting ruffled, changing the subject and leaving until things cool off as I suggest. You see I get guys contacting me all the time worried about avoiding DV charges by their RW wives or wanting to keep their difficult marriages together. 

Maxx  

[Daknack]

I say hold your ground Maxx.  A woman with a mind to file DV charges is going to do it at opportune moments if you are a fighter or not.  Id rather be brought down kicking and screaming then quiet like a mouse.  Not only that, but fighting (of course I dont mean physically) can throw off a real scammers time table and force her to move before shes really ready because she hasnt made needed arrangements and connections.  In cases where it is clear, and the woman is leaving a big trail of breadcrumbs, its best to smile, and gather intelligence on her.  But overall Im the agressive type I guess.

[Elen]

My understanding of Clyde's situation is he puts his wife first. She gets the best he has. As example she got a late model car and he kept the years older model. It is the way he wanted it. Why? because he likes giving to her the very best he has or can get. Do you think his gift giving stops with a car? So when you step back and look at the big picture with him or most of you should any of these RW give us grief over an inappropiate gift at their birthdays? In the words of one infamous RW who most of you want me never to mention, "If you want a Russian wife you must pay" and pay we do. As in attractive late model cars, university educations for their children, money wired home for in-law family emergencies, shoes, INS costs, wardrobe changes, diners out, travel back home for them, shoes, travel to show them our beautiful and beloved country, health insurance costs, shoes, toys for the kids, glasses/contact lenses, did I mention shoes and boots?, Victoria Secrets and the list goes on and on. IMO RW should drop to their knees, bend over and kiss our feet in gratitude.

I am surprised none of you asked SOC what happened to the camera?

Maxx

I have not idea what else he gave her there. I discuss only what he put here - a camera which as it became obviouse she didn't want at all,  a way she reacted at this, and whom to blame and what to do .

PS University educations for Russian clever children,  money wired home for in-law family emergencies INS costs, travel back home are obligated things  as well as toys for the kids, glasses/contact lenses... well it seems I forgot to mention shoes If you can't afford that then marry American women they obviously don't need all those things  

[Elen]

Helen, because it is someones birthday doesnt mean they have to be disagreeable. It is clear he DID think of a gift for her because she likes photos they are important to her and the camera was broken and thus his gift was choosen by something that would would WANT. I know Clyde personally and there is no way someone would have gotten the impression that he was concerned about the loss of the original camera. I think you might have to know him personally to understand this. If his thinking was "too sure" a more appropriate way of handling said situation is to be gracious, smile the big american smile, and next year offer some suggestions of what you want.

I think your just being a bit stubborn about this situation because of yor photography phobia

At anyrate to Maxx, I didnt ask what happened as Im sure he will either tell me in time, or that it was set somewhere he didnt see it or whatnot.

It is clear that he was thinking with his males' brains and as it has been proved by her reaction his "thinking" was WRONG - she didn't want camera at all. 

So I'm right ( where is an emothing with stumble foot ??? :X)

Let he calm down and don't make such fuzz about her reaction and next year ASK her before buy anything.

 
( PS I don't want 350$ camera for birthday I want someone for 1500$  Kidding before Maxx would die about heart atack) 

[Shadow]

I can see that SOC doesn't need this past incident to flair up with too much reveiled online information. I just get rather defensive when I see RW pushing their men into corners.

I would still like to know what is your opinion on the proper handling of a RW who puts her man into a corner? Arguing back and holding your ground as Chipmonk via Ronin suggests? Or not getting ruffled, changing the subject and leaving until things cool off as I suggest. You see I get guys contacting me all the time worried about avoiding DV charges by their RW wives or wanting to keep their difficult marriages together. 

Maxx  

Maxx,

Russian men will leave the subject, sometimes even the room and cool off. This is what RW probably expect as male behaviour if an argument heats up. If your character will not allow you to do this, make this clear when you are not having an argument so that she knows what to expect from you. (DaKnack take this advise).

About the mystery of the camera : I am almost sure that SOC will receive his own gift back for his birthday. She will give it to him with the words that if he wants to buy something for her he should investigate what she wants, and not buy something he thinks can be useful without letting her choose or help to decide.

 

[Maxx]

PS University educations for Russian clever children,  money wired home for in-law family emergencies INS costs, travel back home are obligated things  as well as toys for the kids, glasses/contact lenses... well it seems I forgot to mention shoes If you can't afford that then marry American women they obviously don't need all those things  

My point is if a man is working himself into the ground to provide the very best for his wife she should give him credit for this and thus a pass if his present for her birthday is not to her liking. There are nice ways to gently show him what a better gift would be. Besides SOC knows that even a gift of jewelry could backfire on him. I mean what if he screws up and buys her yellow gold bracelet with diamonds instead of a white gold one? Or maybe she would prefer platinum instead? Or not enough total carat weight? The problem is he has a good chance of not getting an appreciated gift if it is a surprise.

However a gift that is not a surprise to her such as a shopping trip to buy a car, linens or a jewelry item can be only a surprise to him once he sees the price tag.

Maxx

[Son of Clyde]

Apparently she has a "friend" who informs her of all my posts. :huh: I intend to reveal very little from now on. One can never know who is reading the board. This is a public site. Once my wife's English is up to par I think she may eventually want to post her own version of these incidents.

[dfb]

Clyde,

  I think that you did a good job of separating the issues with gift and her response. 


With respect to the gift, it looks like she may not have felt a connection this time.  My Belarusian wife thought it would have been a wonderful gift if she had felt that it was for her.


With respect to her response, remember that the camera was a gift to her and she can do with it what she wants.  If she wants to put it on a shelf or in a shoebox in the closet, it is hers to do so.  That may not be the best productive or marriage building thing to do, but it still is her choice to do so.  This is where she may need some help on understanding the between what she feels she has the right to do and what is good for the marriage.


In the end, we can give you plenty of opinions about what we think about the gift and her response.  The bottom line is that every person is different, and you will need to figure out what your wife needs.  If she is telling you that she needs to have a gift on her birthday that cannot be considered a family gift, than listen and accept what she is saying.


I'd recommend dropping the issue with the camera, letting the situation defuse, learn what you can from this, and forget about the cost of the camera and what she will do with it.  Try letting her know that you listened to her and better understand her needs; my wife and I got a lot more mileage with this approach to overcoming problems.

[Jay Patches]

Instead of speaking here how RW are all spoiled ( wonder by who? by those awful Russian males??) better think that you marry to almost strangers , you know nothing about your wives and can't even to pick up a gift for them for birthday

This is good advice.  I don't care who you marry, or where she is from.  This is basic relationship stuff. 

The fact that she viewed the camera as a family item, is enough.  Next time get her something that she would like so that she feels like you give a sh!t.

[Maxx]

[user=130]Son of Clyde[/user] wrote:

Apparently she has a "friend" who informs her of all my posts. :huh: I intend to reveal very little from now on. One can never know who is reading the board.

Scary  !!! Is this "friend" trying to cause trouble for you or just on your wife's side? Is your wife encouraging this monitoring of your posts? I know you can't answer this.

Maxx