Not Russian Custom

[catzenmouse]

[user=130]Son of Clyde[/user] wrote:

Apparently she has a "friend" who informs her of all my posts. :huh: I intend to reveal very little from now on. One can never know who is reading the board. This is a public site. Once my wife's English is up to par I think she may eventually want to post her own version of these incidents.

Looks like it's time for Cousin of Clyde to join and make posts here...;)

Could she not just read the posts here herself? This "friend" thing is a bit troubling to me. Kind of like having a babysitter who will tell your parents if you've been bad.

I know of other RW/AM couples where the wife reads this board. Elena does occassionally but mostly does not have an interest in it or of posting here. If she has an opinion on something or wants to post I have told her that she is more than welcome to do so. Just our way I guess.

Ken

[Son of Clyde]

Maxx, we should talk soon. Not necessarily about this but just to catch up. It's been a long time.

[rose]

There 7 pages of posts to the topic which at first seemed to be rather simple one.
Let me try to summarize the situation the way I see it:
SoC gave his wife a birthday present, which she didn't like.
Here is three questions to be answered:
    a) Did SoC gave this present from all his heart? Did he thought about his wife?
           Even knowing not too much about him, I would say "YES".
    b) Did his wife misbehaved?
           YES.
    c) Is is a Russian custom to misbehave?
           NO.

Ok, He gave what he thought was a good present, she didn't like it and got pissed off. What do we have here? A ruined birthday, an upset and confused SoC, a bitchy wive, who caused all these problems.

She didn't want a camera, ok, I can understand it. But did she ever gave SoC a hint before the birthday or did she ever tried to discuss the situation after and tell him what exactly she wanted? If it was a reasanoble request why just not go to the store and exchange it? There are 2 adult people who cannot communicate, when the situation is even as simple as this.

She rules the family, and even don't bother herself to think that by her behaviour she'll upset SoC. Bruno, since you are so good with dictionaries, what is a definition of a person who thinks only about him/herself without consideration that his/her actions can hurt people around?

Does she deserve a new present? Forget about it!!!

I hope we all agree here that a gift is an attempt of a person to show his/her feeling toward the other person, material value of it is not so important. And a smart person who receives a gift should remember about it. Apparently, SoC's wife sees only financial part of the gift. That's very sad. Is she a scammer? Who knows, but it seems to me that no matter if she is or not, she is very good in manipulating SoC. And he allows her to do whatever she wants even if it damages him. It is also very sad. I know for sure, if he'll keep allowing her to be that way, it'll be worse and worse every day.





          
          

[Maxx]

SOC, since this goes back I would like to say that your wife is one lucky woman. You got more heart and honesty than any ten posters. I just hope your wife's brains are an equal to your heart. However "discretion is the better part of valor" and you have to refrain from being so honest (open) to help out here.

Maxx

[Shadow]

SOC, I agree with Maxx, and I have heard that you make a great couple. Don't let small things be blown out of proportion by some forum.

[Maxx]

Don't let small things be blown out of proportion by some forum.

 

There is about 10 people here that think about this for at most 10 minutes. Then it is off to some new interest tomorrow. A "Tempest in a Teapot" should not become a marital Hurricane.  

Maxx

 

[Elen]

She didn't want a camera, ok, I can understand it. But did she ever gave SoC a hint before the birthday or did she ever tried to discuss the situation after and tell him what exactly she wanted? If it was a reasanoble request why just not go to the store and exchange it? There are 2 adult people who cannot communicate, when the situation is even as simple as this.

 

Did HE ever asked or is he able to understand "hints" ? As for me I don't know too many males who would have such "gift" like understanding females' "hints 

Did HE discuss with HER a situation instead of posting here his "hurt feelings"? ( behind her back)

And yes I agree there are 2 adult people who cannot communicate  but somehow a majority blames only one part of that.

[Bruno]

[user=130]Son of Clyde[/user] wrote:

Apparently she has a "friend" who informs her of all my posts. :huh: I intend to reveal very little from now on. One can never know who is reading the board. This is a public site. Once my wife's English is up to par I think she may eventually want to post her own version of these incidents.

And what is the problem ?

She read the board !!! I hope that you have post really what you think and feel... If true, why do you fear that she read it ? Why do you fear that she post reply ?

I know that my actual girlfriend read some of my post on these forum and other... but i am Bruno and i write what i think... It is the true, the honesty something so bad...

If you fear so much that she read your post, it is maybe because she don't know your own feeling !!! Hw is it possible ? Don't you have speak with her about this... How do you expect some change from her side if you don't open some dialogue with her...

The ostrich method never work with relationship ! Don't be afraid from what you think and hide it... maybe she will not agree with you but she will know what is the problem between the two of you...

Again, the keyword is "DIALOGUE"

EDIT : yep, Elena was more fast that me...

[catzenmouse]

And yes I agree there are 2 adult people who cannot communicate  but somehow a majority blames only one part of that

I think it only seems this way because she does not post here. I do not  believe for a moment that she is not discussing this situation with  other people.

I do believe that this should be discussed at length between them. No  relationship can develop without communication. This is a key factor in  the success or failure of any relationship no matter where the people  involved are from.

Ken

[BillyB]

Maybe DIALOGUE doesn't happen much if one or both people communicators or one or more people have to have their way all the time. I don't care what holiday or who's birthday it is. There are more than one person's feelings involved. It's especially important for the receiver of the gifts to be gracious, courtious and thankful for anything received. If you have any class, you will not show that you're not pleased with a gift. Clyde is not the richest man in the World from what I've come to know but he sure spent more money than he could afford for a gift. His wife should be tolerant of her view of Clyde's mistakes. It doesn't matter what we think because we all have different opinions of what is an appropriate gift.

I remember one of the few gifts I gave my fiancee during Christmas while I was in Tashkent. She opened a round designed hard case covered in short  tiger designed immitation fur and it had a hard carrying handle. She smiled and said "thank you". I looked at her and asked it she really liked it and she said "yes". I said "do you know what it is?" and she said "it's a bag(purse)". I smiled and opened it up and it was a cosmetic case full of cosmetics. It turned out to be her favorite gift  but I knew that if it was a purse, she wouldn't have used it but she was gracious anyway when she first saw it. The best gifts I have given her was not even for for her. I wanted to buy something useful for her grandmother and she recommended a hearing aid which her grandmother enjoyed. I also told her that when she's with me, I'd like to send her mom some money to help her with living expenses. Natalia makes $200/month and gives all her money to her mom to use for the family needs and her mom makes $20/month. I told Natalia I think of her mom as my mom and don't want to see her struggle in life. She told me that is the best thing anybody has ever said to her.

If you are not a materialist person, gifts become less important and the thought counts more.

To the FRIEND out there who likes to gossip. I believe Clyde comes to ask questions so he can understand things better and improve his life and marriage. That is an honorable thing to do even though he may not be perfect or ask questions in the most appropriate way. I hope you're not interpreting his words negatively and saying bad about him to destroy his marriage. Only low class people do that.

 

[Taz]

I can see that SOC doesn't need this past incident to flair up with too much reveiled online information. I just get rather defensive when I see RW pushing their men into corners.

I would still like to know what is your opinion on the proper handling of a RW who puts her man into a corner? Arguing back and holding your ground as Chipmonk via Ronin suggests? Or not getting ruffled, changing the subject and leaving until things cool off as I suggest. You see I get guys contacting me all the time worried about avoiding DV charges by their RW wives or wanting to keep their difficult marriages together. 

Maxx  

Maxx,

Russian men will leave the subject, sometimes even the room and cool off. This is what RW probably expect as male behaviour if an argument heats up. If your character will not allow you to do this, make this clear when you are not having an argument so that she knows what to expect from you. (DaKnack take this advise).

About the mystery of the camera : I am almost sure that SOC will receive his own gift back for his birthday. She will give it to him with the words that if he wants to buy something for her he should investigate what she wants, and not buy something he thinks can be useful without letting her choose or help to decide.

 
[/quote]
To follow Helen's logic I can ask for anything I want and that is my right. So I don't get what I want, I can be petty and immature. So for my next birthday I want a totally hot, beautiful, sexy 25 year old RW. After all it is MY birthday.

As for Shadow I am not going to be the person backing down every time. This is not about me catering to some spoiled princess. If she wants to act like a princess then I want to act like a king. There has to balance in a relationship. The first time I got into an argument with a RW and I didn't retreat into a corner it surprised the heck out of her. I also earned her respect. My position was how died and made her king of the relationship. RW are so used to being the driving force in a family that if they don't respect you are they are going to push push PUSH you until they get what they want.

If the want to actually receive what they want then I better be getting what I want too. SOC sounds like his wife is a similar to a friend of mine. His wife has basically cornered him to the point he is like a slave to that woman. He gave up his karate lessons (his one "luxury") so that she could spend more money on online shopping. No matter how much money he gives her (she doesn't work) it is never enough. His gifts to her are not what she was used to in Russia (as in not as nice as she got from her boyfriends there). So why the hell did this woman leave Russia if her life was so damn good there?

No offense SOC and I don't know your wife but I hope what you describe in not a full blown case of the Spoiled Russian Princess syndrome. I would rather stay single the rest of my life than live with one of these parasites. They are like a vampire that sucks your blood and money out of you. My friend spends 10% of his take home pay on just phone calls for her to call her family. It is just absurd. He is about to his last straw dealing with her tantrums if she doesn't buy a gift that she likes. It is just a joke.

[Bruno]

If she wants to act like a princess then I want to act like a king. There has to balance in a relationship.

Strange notion of balance

Usualy, the balanced counterpart of princess is a prince... and for a king, it is a queen...

So, if the lady act like a princes and you like be a king, i don't see the balance in the relationship... You, the man, take always the superior role...

In your case, if your lady act like a princess, maybe you can be the frog

[Taz]

 

Obviously you didn't get my point so that is ok. My point is if she wants to be "superior" to me, then how would she like it if I turned the tables on her and then I wanted to be her superior, i.e. lord. I don't know about you but I want it to be level in the relationship. My point is to teach her a lesson and see how it feels to her if someone is trying to force her way into the dominant position.

I usually try and make the woman my queen if I am her king.  I am not going to be some knave while tries make herself a princess at my expense I am not speaking her financially.

I realize some of my choices of phrases may be more difficult for non-native English speakers to understand either my humor or my phrasing that happens so misunderstandings will occur. I am not about let some women (RW or otherwise) walk all over me. I am not going to be her carpet just because she wants me to be. However I will do what the SITUATION demands, not what she demands. If she asks nicely and isn't spoiled I will treat her incredibly well. If she demands anything then that is like a threat to me and i will do nothing.

[Wild Orchid*]

I don't know what to think. I feel like we are pushed to believe that it is in American blood to be very grateful receiving unwanted presents, and Russian people do opposite. Reading RWA I was very surprised to hear about another American custom - attaching receipts to Christmas presents, so receivers could exchange them or get money back if they didn't like the present. And most of the women said that they prefer to get "money"-present of a gift vouchers from in-laws.  How does it go together with what you are trying to say here? We don't attach receipts not in Russia, not in Au.

 

OTOH, SoC's wife said, this is for the family. May be she was trying to say "YOU all are welcome to use it if you want"? Why do you think it meant she didn't like the present?

[BC]

Most here are wildly shooting at barns when the target is behind them..

Point is that such things should have been figured out long before marriage.

That's what dating is all about.

[Taz]

Most here are wildly shooting at barns when the target is behind them..

Point is that such things should have been figured out long before marriage.

That's what dating is all about.

I agree with you to some extent BUT most men from the US can't travel many times back and forth to Russia to "date" their potential spouses. Add to that the illogical way women have to be brought to the US it makes the process a lot more complicated. That is just part of the issue.

What about the women that CHANGE after they have "hooked" their man? That is when they think that everything is all set. They start to gain weight, stop taking care of themselves and then become demanding. Off course not all women are that way but I would wager that 75% of ALL women gain at least 10 or 15% additional weight after being married. They aren't trying to "attract" a man at that point and they figure once he has married her it is pretty darn difficult to get rid of her. Sort of like a job in France, they think they are there for life.

[jb]

Taz,

Up until now you've been pretty reasonable in your postings,,,but:

BUT most men from the US can't travel many times back and forth to Russia to "date" their potential spouses.

If that's the case, they have no business getting married.

I, and many other married men here, traveled back and forth 3 and 4 times per year until we were certain of what the hell we were doing.  Doing anything less is like buying a lotto ticket and trusting to luck.

Not smart.

[PeeWee]

BUT most men from the US can't travel many times back and forth to Russia to "date" their potential spouses.

If that's the case, they have no business getting married.

I, and many other married men here, traveled back and forth 3 and 4 times per year until we were certain of what the hell we were doing.  Doing anything less is like buying a lotto ticket and trusting to luck.

Not smart.
[/quote]
Well, JB, this will sound insane to you but I've pretty much decided that if I have a good feeling about the woman that I will meet come this September that it will be a one trip decision. This decision based on years of dating women and married to one as well. By now I should have the gut feeling developed that will be my guide. Not that business is anything like a marriage but for me I make business decisions all of the time that are far more riskier  than this one of marriage will be and most of the time I seem to come out ok. If the decision goes South then I regroup and make an adjusting decsion, recoop, and go on.

I deal with different people daily and have for years. I am a good judge of character and always have been. After months of letters and phone the meeting should be the tell all. The final piece to the puzzel, so to speak.   

Peewee

[Taz]

jb- I FULLY advocate going as often as you can. I've been to the FSU probably about 50 times as well as working there. I think you should spend as much time with her as you can. Most men don't not because the don't want to because but because they don't have enough vacation time.

It is still difficult because most can't still really date like they could if they lived around their woman. It is still a non-normal dating dynamic. You try to do the best you can do and there still is an element of luck.

[Jet]

Well, JB, this will sound insane to you but I've pretty much decided that if I have a good feeling about the woman that I will meet come this September that it will be a one trip decision. This decision based on years of dating women and married to one as well. By now I should have the gut feeling developed that will be my guide.

Ahhh, yet another soul convinced that a healthy marriage can be based on 2 weeks in fantasyland. :huh:

[Voyageur]

I could not afford the time away from work, and honestly the cost involved to visit Stavropol for months on end before I proposed and started the K1 process.  Like Taz said, I fully endorse and advocate going to see your FSU woman as many times as possible before making the commitment, but after making these visits, sometimes you have to include the less quantitative "instinct" factor to be ready to move forward.  It has been written many times that keyboard Romeo's keep women waiting for long periods of time before commitment.  And honestly, a good FSU woman will only wait so long for you.

Of course you have to do everything possible to prevent making a too-quick decision.  Any red flags should be immediately resolved in your thinking, this is for sure.

On the other hand, I dated an AW for a year before I met my wife and honestly did not know her much better at the end of our relationship than I did at the beginning.

I guess what I am saying is that for a marriage to work, there has to be a degree of luck, practicality and instinct involved.  A strong factor is living together, there is no doubt about it. But not just the "homework" of living in the FSU for long periods of time, IMHO, will ensure a successful marriage.  If face time in the FSU is the sole criteria for success for a happy marriage, only the independantly wealthy or someone with a very flexible work schedule should pursue a woman from the FSU.

[jb]

PeeWee,

You are right, it does sound insane to me.

When my wife and I were in the "dating" phase, I was traveling 4 times a year, two weeks per trip.  I worked for a company which had fairly liberal vacation benefits  and I had enough senority to earn 6 weeks per year, so I ran out of vacation after 3 trips, a 4th trip was done on LWOP, (leave without pay).   I say this to emphasize the importance I gave to the undertaking.  Courting a woman in the FSU should be viewed as work, you have to set goals and strive to achieve them.  This is especially true if you and your intended don't share a common language.  All letters which have to be translated by a third party should be suspect, the same can be said for phone calls requiring a interperter.  The person you think you are falling in love with didn't say those words, the translator did.  Only face time will tell the tale.

If you want to have fun on vacation, go to Disney Land, don't use your vacation time to find a wife. If you don't have the means to travel often, and I refer to 3-4 times a year as often, then IMHO, you are barking up the wrong tree.

If you are thinking that I must be rich to afford to travel so often you are wrong, I earned a very decent middle-class salary, but I was not rich.  I learned to economize in other areas, I drove a 5 year old paid for vehicle, I paid off all my debts and incurred no more, credit cards were put away, meals were taken at home, TV movies were my sole form of entertainment, and I learned to appreciate cheap beer.  In other words, I had a goal to achieve and I lived like a monk during those two years we were dating.  The end result was that when I finally did propose marriage, there was no doubt in my mind we were doing the right thing. 

How can anyone propose after only visiting a woman for two weeks, actually it's only 11.5 days after you subtract the travel time, and not have question marks in his mind?  

[Turboguy]

JB's Way (sure route to sucess)

Ok, jb,  4 trips per year.  11.5 days of face to face time per visit, two years of trips.   11.5 x 8 = 92 days face to face and there were no doubts in your mind. 

One week wonder way (Bound for disaster)

Now, One week wonders.  One 7 day trip less 2 days of travel time = 5 days face to face.   1 K-1 visa  90 days, less 3 days to arrange a quick trip to Reno or Vegas of a marriage,    5+87 = 92 days but of course they are not going to know each other enough to have no doubts in their mind.

So if you can't get tons of time off just forget the whole thing cause you can't possibly know each other well enough doing it the one week wonder way.  Humm

[Son of Clyde]

This is why it is better that a guy earn in excess of $100,000.00 a year to be able to afford all those visits. Since I don't travel as much as most, do frequent flier miles really pay off? I have some mileage accumulated. 

[jb]

T/G

I might have known you would find a way to justify stupidity. Next you'll be saying the odds of my marriage succeeding are the same as PhotoGuy's, or worse, yours.

Maybe I should have mentioned that I actually knew the woman before I decided to start dating her, I didn't pick her out of a catalog.  Maybe I should have mentioned there is not a 20+ year age difference.  Maybe I should have mentioned we have similar educational backgrounds.  Perhaps I should have mentioned she was already fluent in English so we never had a language barrier to overcome.  Perhaps I should have mentioned that our telephone conversations were meaningful, direct communication without the need for 3rd party translation.   Perhaps I should have mentioned I had already been through a 6 months intensive Russian language training program, Maybe I should have mentioned I had already spent three summers working for the Russian oil cooperative plus field trips to Siberia during the winter months.  Maybe I should have elaborated on how much of the Russian culture and psyche I already understood,,, perhaps,,, maybe,,, perhaps.

I was a long way ahead of any one week wonder long before I had my first date.

Besides, you seem to not understand, the 90 day K-1 visa is NOT supposed to be used as a trial marriage, or for getting to know your woman.  You are supposed already know each other and to be ready for marriage when she arrives.  The 90 days is simply time for her to plan a wedding. 

Sometime, T/G, you amaze me with your lack of demonstrated intelligence.