Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members

[Noch1]

The US sanctions without the EU won't have enough teeth.
Getting the EU, to do that will be a big challenge.

[JayH]

Don't be as naive as Obama. Putin isn't dumb and he expected sanctions for entering south Ukraine.

Please do not attempt to paint me as nieve-- I am not suggesting sanctions in isolation and all. If I had my way I would have all the support needed  in there already-- and it is urgent as I write.The way to save lives right now is to make it very clear to Putin that he is about to pay a very heavy price. That needs full on air support,intelligence,logistical,equipment urgently.If Putin is confronted in that way-it may avoid bloodshed right now--it may be the only way.If I am nieve--it is in believing that will happen fast enough.
In addition-- confiscate every asset possible- give him 24 hours to start withdrawing from Crimea- and start confiscating every asset worldwide.Putins crooks and cronies will get rid of him pretty fast-- you could bet money on it!!
It does need NATO -- but US pushing would be a start.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/10673501/Ukraine-crisis-sanctions-wont-worry-Vladimir-Putin.html

Anyone think these words have been recycled?

With these words, Hitler started World War II:
"More than ten million Germans living in two states located outside our borders ... There can be no doubt that the political separation from the Reich should not result in depriving them of their rights, rather, a fundamental right - to self-determination. For a world power unbearably aware that the brothers in race supporting her, exposed cruelly persecuted and tortured for their desire to be together with the nation to share her fate. In the interests of the German Reich is to protect these Germans who live along our borders, but not can defend their own political and spiritual freedom, " February 20, 1938 , Adolf Hitler

[Chelseaboy]

Hammer,

                I had to smile when I saw your posting 561,i've just been given all that Russian BS as a reason for why Russian forces are in Crimea...from a Russian girl living in Odessa.

She also says Russia spits on the USA,and they could destroy all the USA's armed forces in less than thirty minutes.

What do they teach Russian kids in their schools nowadays I wonder ?

[lordtiberius]

Poland requests more NATO consultations over Russia
3:19pm EST

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - NATO allies will hold emergency talks on the crisis in Ukraine on Tuesday, for the second time in three days, following a request from Poland, the alliance said on Monday.

In calling the meeting, Poland, a neighbor of Ukraine, invoked a NATO rule allowing any ally to consult with the others if it feels its security, territorial integrity or independence are under threat, the so-called Article 4.

"The developments in and around Ukraine are seen to constitute a threat to neighboring Allied countries and having direct and serious implications for the security and stability of the Euro-Atlantic area," the alliance said in a statement.

NATO meetings under Article 4 are rare. Only Turkey has used the option before, calling for consultations three times, once during the 2003 war in Iraq and twice, two years ago, over the Syrian conflict.

In Sunday's discussions, the NATO allies urged Russia to withdraw its troops back to their bases but failed to agree any significant steps to rein it in.

Russian President Vladimir Putin's forces tightened their grip on the mostly Russian-speaking Crimea region on Monday after seizing the Ukrainian peninsula, and Putin has secured parliamentary approval to send other forces to Ukraine.

Poland has taken a more aggressive stance against Russia than some of its European peers, pushing for more decisive response, including possible European Union sanctions.

It has a special interest in Ukraine. They share a border, their languages are similar, and large parts of western Ukraine were Polish before World War Two. Polish foreign policy is driven by a fear of Russia, its former overlord, pushing west into Ukraine.

NATO also requested a meeting with Russia on Wednesday and Moscow's ambassador to the alliance, Alexander Grushko, said he would consider the proposal, the alliance said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/03/us-ukraine-crisis-nato-meeting-idUSBREA221VS20140303

Russia to invade East
http://world.time.com/2014/03/03/how-a-russian-invasion-of-eastern-ukraine-might-unfold/

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/01/nato_needs_to_move_now_on_crimea

ow that Vladimir Putin's Olympics are over, his gaze has turned inexorably to what he clearly regards as the premier foreign-policy priority of the Russian Federation: retaining determinative influence -- if not full control -- over Ukraine.

He went to the Russian parliament to formally request permission for what he has already done -- send troops into Ukraine -- and it approved the move. News reports indicate the Russian military has seized Crimea. This is a volatile, dangerous situation without foreign intervention; and his behavior is reckless. Like a chess player leaning forward, his moves are sweeping the board.

What is NATO's move?

The United States has responded strongly through normal diplomatic channels, with Secretary of State John Kerry calling this an action with "grave consequences" -- freighted language in the world of diplomacy. The president and secretary of defense have echoed this, and further condemnation will no doubt be forthcoming.

Certainly the shadow of recent Russian activity in Georgia, including the invasion and creation of the "independent" states of Abkhazia and Ossetia, looms over the situation, as does Russian activity in Transnistria. Will Crimea be next?

All of this, of course, is magnified by the strategic importance to Russia of the Black Sea port and the presence of a significant part of Russia's fleet and its guaranteed access to the Mediterranean and the Levant.

Hopefully, there can be high-level diplomatic discussions at the United Nations, European Union, and other international organizations that will lead to full territorial integrity of the sovereign state of Ukraine. And the state of the Russian Black Sea Fleet has to be sensibly resolved, as do important trading and energy relations. The hope is that cooler heads will prevail.

However, hope is not a strategy, and therefore further action should be considered. Planning is vital to laying out options to decision-makers, and NATO's military planners should have a busy weekend at least.

This is a classic case of a situation where the United States should be working in lock step with its allies around the world, but especially its European friends and most notably the 28 members of the NATO alliance.

NATO should call an immediate emergency session and weigh its options in the political, diplomatic, economic, and military dimensions.

In the military sphere, these include ordering the Supreme Headquarters, Allied Powers Europe (SHAPE), led by U.S. Gen. Phil Breedlove, to conduct prudent planning and present options in response to the situation. While such planning should be left to the current commanders and military experts, some ideas to consider would include:

    Increasing all intelligence-gathering functions through satellites, Predator unmanned vehicles, and especially cyber.
    Using the NATO-Ukrainian Commission and existing military partnerships with the Ukrainian military to share information, intelligence, and situational awareness with authorities in Kiev.
    Providing advice to Ukrainian armed forces to prepare and position themselves in the event of further conflict.
    Developing NATO contingency plans to react to full-scale invasion of Ukraine and to a partial invasion likely of Crimea. NATO contingency planning can be cumbersome, but in Libya it moved quickly.
    Assigning one of the NATO Joint Force Commands (either Naples, Italy, or Brunssum, Netherlands) into direct overwatch of the situation.
    Standing up NATO crisis centers to full manning, especially at SHAPE and the relevant Joint Force Command.
    Ensuring that the Land and Maritime Component Commands (Izmir, Turkey, and Northwood in the United Kingdom, respectively) are conducting prudent planning in their areas of expertise and feeding their analysis to the Joint Force Command.
    Bringing the NATO Response Force, a 25,000-man sea, air, land, and special forces capability, to a higher state of alert.
    Convening allies with cyber-capabilities (this is not a NATO specialty) to consider options -- at a minimum to defend Ukraine if it is attacked in this domain (as Georgia was).
    Sailing NATO maritime forces into the Black Sea and setting up contingency plans for their use.

Many will consider any level of NATO involvement provocative and potentially inflammatory. Unfortunately, the stakes are high and the Russians are moving. Sitting idle, without at least looking at options, is a mistake for NATO and would itself constitute a signal to Putin -- one that he would welcome.

[SteveOR]

Hammer,

                I had to smile when I saw your posting 561,i've just been given all that Russian BS as a reason for why Russian forces are in Crimea...from a Russian girl living in Odessa.

She also says Russia spits on the USA,and they could destroy all the USA's armed forces in less than thirty minutes.

What do they teach Russian kids in their schools nowadays I wonder ?

This is what they are teaching schoolchildren in Russia now:
 
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putins-distorted-history/489799.html
 
"There is actually nothing fundamentally new about the Russian history textbooks recently unveiled by a working group headed by State Duma speaker Sergei Naryshkin. Although the textbook ostensibly advocates freedom, constitutionalism and the paramount value of human life, the main value embraced by the authors — and the book's chief client, President Vladimir Putin — ­remains the supremacy of the state."
 
"Thus, the bloody reign of Ivan the Terrible is depicted as a period of "reforms," and his seizures of Kazan and Astrakhan are euphemistically described as "annexations." The authors refer to Peter the Great's reforms with the buzzword "modernization," even while failing to mention the cost of his wars or the fact that about one-fourth of the population of the Russian Empire died during his reign."
 
"The Soviet period as a whole is praised. The Bolsheviks are credited with restoring a strong state, instituting broad social reforms and carrying out the successful industrialization of the country. Although the authors acknowledge the enormous sacrifices made by the people in the mass famine of the 1920s and 1930s, the mass repression, the gulags and the deportation of entire populations, they are all presented as unavoidable costs of what the authors call "Soviet modernization." Stalin's regime, which killed millions of innocent people, is called "Stalinist socialism."
 
"Meanwhile, the book's main patron, Putin, is described with glowing superlatives. Putin, we are told, stabilized the country after the "disastrous '90s," built a much-needed autocratic system called the "vertical-power structure" and achieved strong economic growth, even amid the sharp global slowdown of 2008-09. Notably, readers will find no mention of the 2004 Beslan terrorist attack, the sinking of the Kursk submarine in 2000, the sharp rise in corruption under Putin's rule, the enrichment of Putin's close friends and associates, the monopolization of the economy or the jailing of the wealthiest man in Russia, former Yukos CEO Mikhail Khodorkovsky, or the government's subsequent seizure of his company."
 
 

[JayH]

http://censor.net.ua/news/274029/putin_prikazal_voyiskam_i_soedineniyam_prinimavshim_uchastie_v_voennyh_ucheniyah_vernutsya_v_chasti

 Putin ordered the troops and formations that took part in military exercises, back in part
Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered the troops and formations that took part in military exercises, return to their places of permanent deployment.


This was reported by the press secretary of the Russian president, Dmitry Peskov, transfers Tsenzor.NET citing League.
According to ITAR-TASS , according to Peskov, eve after Putin was presented a report on the success of the exercise, "Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces, Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered the troops and formations that took part in military exercises, to return to their places of permanent dislocation. "
Earlier, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine, citing data from the State Border Service reported accumulation of military equipment near the state border with Russia. "State Border Service of Ukraine reported that as of March 3, there is an accumulation of military equipment in Russia near the state border within Kharkiv, Luhansk and Donetsk regions", - quotes MFA data border services on Monday evening. Read the "Tsenzor.NET" : Putin prearranged overthrow Yanukovych and "Berkut" played a major role in this, - Financial Times



Recall, 26 February at 14:00 in accordance with the order of the President of the Russian Federation Ministry of Defense of Russia suddenly raised the alarm troops of the Western Military District, as well as the military units stationed on its territory, the 2nd Army Central Military District units and Air Space Defense, Airborne Troops, LD and military transport aircraft. Supreme Commander tasked to test the ability of troops to act in crisis situations posing a threat to the military security of the country, as well as anti-terrorism, sanitary-epidemiological and manmade.

[lordtiberius]

800 Ukrainian Air Force personnel and 45 Mig fighters pledge allegiance to Putin and his puppets



Putin will use these planes to bomb Ukraine. 

The treachery and cowardice of these men would not be so excusable if the West would not be so indecisive and morally weak.  Where are you Winston?

[SteveOR]

http://censor.net.ua/news/274029/putin_prikazal_voyiskam_i_soedineniyam_prinimavshim_uchastie_v_voennyh_ucheniyah_vernutsya_v_chasti

 Putin ordered the troops and formations that took part in military exercises, back in part
Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered the troops and formations that took part in military exercises, return to their places of permanent deployment.


This was reported by the press secretary of the Russian president, Dmitry Peskov, transfers Tsenzor.NET citing League.
According to ITAR-TASS , according to Peskov, eve after Putin was presented a report on the success of the exercise, "Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces, Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered the troops and formations that took part in military exercises, to return to their places of permanent dislocation. "
Earlier, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine, citing data from the State Border Service reported accumulation of military equipment near the state border with Russia. "State Border Service of Ukraine reported that as of March 3, there is an accumulation of military equipment in Russia near the state border within Kharkiv, Luhansk and Donetsk regions", - quotes MFA data border services on Monday evening. Read the "Tsenzor.NET" : Putin prearranged overthrow Yanukovych and "Berkut" played a major role in this, - Financial Times



Recall, 26 February at 14:00 in accordance with the order of the President of the Russian Federation Ministry of Defense of Russia suddenly raised the alarm troops of the Western Military District, as well as the military units stationed on its territory, the 2nd Army Central Military District units and Air Space Defense, Airborne Troops, LD and military transport aircraft. Supreme Commander tasked to test the ability of troops to act in crisis situations posing a threat to the military security of the country, as well as anti-terrorism, sanitary-epidemiological and manmade.

From BBC Live News:
 
"06:14: Russian troops taking part in military exercises near the Ukrainian border are ordered by President Putin to return to their bases, presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov is quoted as saying by Russian news agencies"
 
"06:21: More on the statement by Russian presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov that troops taking part in military exercises across western Russia are to return to base. He says the manoeuvres had been "a success". Moscow denies that they were linked to events in Ukraine, Reuters reports."
 
"06:59:It is not clear whether up to a 150,000 members of the Russian armed forces who have been involved in military exercises near the Ukrainian border - and now ordered back to base by President Putin - remain on a heightened state of alert, The BBC's Richard Galpin in Moscow reports."
 
 

[SteveOR]

 
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/04/ukraine-crisis-russia-military-idUSL6N0M109L20140304
 
Tue Mar 4, 2014 1:08am EST
 
(Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered troops that took part in military exercises this week to return to base, Russian news agencies quoted the Kremlin spokesman as saying  on Tuesday.
 
Dmitry Peskov said the military exercises, which Moscow denied were linked to events in Ukraine, had been a success. The exercises took place across western Russia, an area which borders Ukraine.
 

[JayH]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/04/ukraine-crisis-russia-military-idUSL6N0M109L20140304
 
Tue Mar 4, 2014 1:08am EST
 
(Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered troops that took part in military exercises this week to return to base, Russian news agencies quoted the Kremlin spokesman as saying  on Tuesday.
 
Dmitry Peskov said the military exercises, which Moscow denied were linked to events in Ukraine, had been a success. The exercises took place across western Russia, an area which borders Ukraine.

Statement seems to have forgotten the exercise included invading a foreign country!!
All that is needed now is total withdrawl form the Crimea-- and let Ukraine get on with organising a decent future for all Ukrainians.
Worth noting is that Ukraine has been in the process of reducing defence spending and the size of it's armed services--in line with most western Europen democracies !!  it makes it all the more important that the collective of nations stand together when a former super power invades and bullies.
Imagine that a mere 12% fall in the Moscow market can make the coward Putin turn tail !! Imagine what he would concede when assets get frozen and confiscated!!
Congratulations to all those brave Ukrainians that stood their ground( and are still standing)-you are heroes.Congratulations to all those that rushed to join up to fight-you have my absolute admiration for your bravery.

[calmissile]

Hammer,

                I had to smile when I saw your posting 561,i've just been given all that Russian BS as a reason for why Russian forces are in Crimea...from a Russian girl living in Odessa.

She also says Russia spits on the USA,and they could destroy all the USA's armed forces in less than thirty minutes.

What do they teach Russian kids in their schools nowadays I wonder ?

Pretty sad, isn't it?  Perhaps it is because she was brainwashed in Russia before going to Ukraine.

[JayH]

This is what they are teaching schoolchildren in Russia now:
 
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putins-distorted-history/489799.html
 
"Meanwhile, the book's main patron, Putin, is described with glowing superlatives. Putin, we are told, stabilized the country after the "disastrous '90s," built a much-needed autocratic system called the "vertical-power structure" and achieved strong economic growth, even amid the sharp global slowdown of 2008-09. Notably, readers will find no mention of the 2004 Beslan terrorist attack, the sinking of the Kursk submarine in 2000, the sharp rise in corruption under Putin's rule, the enrichment of Putin's close friends and associates, the monopolization of the economy or the jailing of the wealthiest man in Russia, former Yukos CEO Mikhail Khodorkovsky, or the government's subsequent seizure of his company."

Good post Steve-- it is out of the book that if it is in the book-it must be true! Wonderful way to rewrite history. Reminds me of how the Japanese are still in denial about atrocities they committed throught Asia in World War 2.Not touched in any Japanese history of the period-pretend it never happened.

[justme100]

Don't be as naive as Obama. Putin isn't dumb and he expected sanctions for entering south Ukraine. When Putin learns sanctions are the only thing the West will use instead of military force, he will want more than a slice, he'll want the whole pie. Putin expects to get punished by the world community so he'll make up for it elsewhere. Poland recently put it's military at the border. The know what Russian leaders are capable of. Ukraine may not be the only stop. Before Hitler started war, he annexed some countries. The world community was weak to stop Hitler so he went after more. Putin may want more too. America should honor our security agreement with Ukraine and park troops there. Putin is smart, not crazy, and he won't enter into a fight he can't win.


Did sanctions work on North Korea, Iran, and Cuba? NO. Their leaders live rich while their population suffers. As for North Korea and Iran, it's not a question of "IF" they will get nuclear weapons, it's a question of "When" because sanctions don't work but that's all the world community will do. Putin knows this and knows it won't work on him. Most Russian people support him and are willing to suffer in support of his actions.

You are a really wise man,Billy

[LAman]

I found this article interesting. Some points have already been voiced here
http://news.yahoo.com/4-reasons-putin-already-losing-ukraine-211452971.html?vp=1



For those of you who been telling of the Russian takeover of Ukraine, move on to your next prophecy. I don't care too much about what can happen, I am more into seeing what will/likely to happen. I could never picture Russians fighting Ukrainians in Crimea.... for what??? Is it possible, sure but not likely. I really hope I am not proved wrong!!!
If I could think of a word to describe what has happened in the last week....it is posturing....

[JayH]

I found this article interesting. Some points have already been voiced here
http://news.yahoo.com/4-reasons-putin-already-losing-ukraine-211452971.html?vp=1



For those of you who been telling of the Russian takeover of Ukraine, move on to your next prophecy. I don't care too much about what can happen, I am more into seeing what will/likely to happen. I could never picture Russians fighting Ukrainians in Crimea.... for what??? Is it possible, sure but not likely. I really hope I am not proved wrong!!!
If I could think of a word to describe what has happened in the last week....it is posturing....

At home, this intervention looks to be one of the most unpopular decisions Putin has ever made. The Kremlin’s own pollster released a survey on Monday that showed 73% of Russians reject it. In phrasing its question posed in early February to 1,600 respondents across the country, the state-funded sociologists at WCIOM were clearly trying to get as much support for the intervention as possible: “Should Russia react to the overthrow of the legally elected authorities in Ukraine?” they asked. Only 15% said yes — hardly a national consensus.

Interesting quote from article in red above. Overall quite a few interseting points are made by the writers-I already commented up thread on consequences. Already 73% of Russians do not agree-- imagine how many more will desert supporting Putin when the real costs hit Moscow.

[justme100]

A little bit of historical background of those, who came to power in Kiev. Awful article
http://57.md/index.php?newsid=434

[LAman]

This is for you justme....I am sure you will agree!

I just spoke to my friend in Sevastopol and asked his thoughts on what is happening in Ukraine/Crimea:
Me: Do you fly out today?

Friend: yes no problem what so ever just like on any other day

 
Me: What's going down over there?

Friend: Crimea now is probably the safest place in Ukraine,
Would not want to be up in Kiev for sure
Sevastopol set a check point up on the edge of town to check who was coming in and out and  that was all you could notice from any other run to the airport,
and at the airport there's 4 guys just stand around with machine guns , but if you did not know, you would have probably thought it was just normal security,
saying its a armed siege is just a joke  to sell the papers.
 
Watching the UK TV, it seems like they don't have a idea what this is all about,
 
Seems like its all anti Putin, and EU seams to be fully behind this new mob and don't have a problem with masked men with baseball bats and guns patrolling the streets in Kiev, even though know where in Europe would allow anything like this to even start
 
Bottom line is know one where I live want these Nazi  right wing, anti Russian mob down here who have destroyed the Centre of Kiev, when they did not get there own way
 
This new mob are clueless and caused so any problems in just a few days,
They are saying the county has huge financial problems, so one of the most important things to this Mob was to cancel the Russian language law, which made it clear to everyone down what was important to them, all laws that are past are of what  the euro median's want , as if they don't it will kick off again,
something had to be done to stop Sevastopol turning  into another Kiev,  first the locals set about doing it and then Putin provided the support,
Now the Crimea is safe and secure without a shot being fired, unlike the rioting we all saw in  Kiev
Know one here wants   Putin to pull back,
If Kiev don't like it then Crimea should become independent
 
But with the US throwing so much money at the original protesters, and EU making so many promises they can never keep , what  can you expect ?
 

[The Natural]

The US sanctions without the EU won't have enough teeth.
Getting the EU, to do that will be a big challenge.

You're right. According to experts here, trade between Russia and USA is very limited and Europe depends on gas from Russia. A trade war will hurt Russia, sure, but it will also hurt Europe. I don't consider my own country a souvereign nation any more, but a sattelite state that do as it's told by USA and the EU. So if the EU starts sanctions, Norway will follow up and destroy years of progress towards good relations with Russia. Unlike most of you here, we do border Russia and the inhabitants there visit each other and do trade.
 
They claim in the media that Russia provokes. But as I see it, there's plenty of provocations going on from the west and others too. Where's the condemnation of the new rulers in Kiev to outlaw the Russian language? It's very weak indeed. And now as Russia has called off it's military exercise in western Russia, the Poles decides to turn back the heat of the situation by seemingly trying to get NATO to move in it's border with Ukraine.

[JayH]

 I am sure the guys trapped and surrounded who have been facing demands to surrender do not think it is a joke.
Noteworthy is your friends lack of comprehension of what went on in Kiev--perhaps that says it all about his perspective-it reflects the jaundiced lies promoted by captive TV and media.

As it happens-- I also just spoke to someone in Sevastopol-- who is decidely unhappy and apprehensive on every issue--let alone plain outright scared.
I also just saw a poll  57% of Crimeans voting to stay part of Ukraine-15% only to be part of Russia --it was a decent sized sample with voting ongoing.
You can make isolated anectdotal information equal whatever direction you choose--it does not change the fact that Russia invaded another country  with an absolute intent to avoid the democratic process.

[JayH]

You're right. According to experts here, trade between Russia and USA is very limited and Europe depends on gas from Russia. A trade war will hurt Russia, sure, but it will also hurt Europe. I don't consider my own country a souvereign nation any more, but a sattelite state that do as it's told by USA and the EU. So if the EU starts sanctions, Norway will follow up and destroy years of progress towards good relations with Russia. Unlike most of you here, we do border Russia and the inhabitants there visit each other and do trade.
 
They claim in the media that Russia provokes. But as I see it, there's plenty of provocations going on from the west and others too. Where's the condemnation of the new rulers in Kiev to outlaw the Russian language? It's very weak indeed. And now as Russia has called off it's military exercise in western Russia, the Poles decides to turn back the heat of the situation by seemingly trying to get NATO to move in it's border with Ukraine.

There is NO move to outlaw the Russian language-that is simply a wrong statement.In fact- some laws relating to Ukrainian language have been rescinded by the new government.
Part of the point of demilitarisation of countries is that the collective then bad together to PROTECT each others sovereignty-it needs the collective mass to stand up to former super powers-like Russia.Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons on that basis-- does anyone think Russia would have behaved like this in the last week if Ukraine still had its nuclear capacity? We all know that answer.
I dont like to personalise my comments too much on such serious issues-- but-- you are happy to have Ukraine invaded-- and then worry that your heat may be turned off? I mean really-- get it into perspective--Ukarine has just escaped being a war zone with all the potential consequences to people and property- and your biggest worry is that sanctions against Russia could create a "minor" problem for you? Summers coming!!
The strongest measures possible need to be applied to Russia until it withdraws from the Crimea-- and no valid election or referendum can be recognised while they are present.
Once the threat was to return Russia to the stone age via nuclear war-now it should be returned to the stone age via economic sanctions that seizes everything that can be found-- and every country need to comply.Lets see then if Russia has the motivation to join the world and behave.

[Chelseaboy]

justme100 has posted a video of some hooded far -right extremists patrolling the streets of Kiev.

Has anybody on here been to Kiev recently ?

If so,are there many of them ..are we talking thousands ?

Are there more of them roaming other cities in Ukraine ?

Are there enough of them to justify the aggressive actions,including physical attacks,which started when the Russian forces invaded Crimea, of the ethnic Russians against Ukrainians in eastern cities ?

[JayH]

CB the BS is never ending and hard to believe that anyone could find it credible. The theory of keeping saying it and some will believe it.
The thugs are probably the paid bashers of Yanuk & co.

[BC]

Maybe a good idea to pause and get your breath back..

Lets face it, it is quite natural for superpowers to expand their realm of influence, so over time opportunities will arise and be grasped.

'Because I can.' is reality, for the superpowers and indeed the main ingredient for their existence.

Since the fall of the SU, Russia was weakened and only lost ground, influence and power.  At the same time the US has attempted to increase their field of influence and power, albeit in the end racking up little aside from debt and ineffective government.

So when RU sees an opportunity, they will take it.  In 2008 they entered Georgia and with a relatively small number of casualties established a permanent presence in autonomous areas.  In Crimea without any casualties they will likely stick around as long as it takes for Crimea to achieve full autonomy and align with RU.  Lets say RU forces will as in the past, remain in Crimea.

RU is simply exerting their powers as others do.  The difference is that brute force i.e. outright war has been avoided and in the end they achieved their goals.  Putin is biting off what he can chew.  I doubt there are plans to bite off more as their goals have been achieved.  Putin has again proven he can wield his powers and achieve a wider sphere of influence without great casualties or cost.  Don't worry their markets and the ruble will bounce back.

Sanctions? won't happen.  EU is too dependent on their oil and gas and UA too dependent on transit revenues and low prices.

World order will again achieve a new balance and map-makers will finally have something to do for a change.

As with Georgia, this too will blow over in a few months. Unless of course UA weakens further and chaos ensues.  If that is the case he will surely step back in and fill the void. 

It's probably best that UA concentrates on getting it's act together.  Too many years of unrest and discord got them where they are today.  It's going to take a tough hand to pull what's left back together and if it does not they will just be opening the border for someone else to do what they are not able to achieve.

Bottom line, all this is quite normalna in the global scheme of things.....

Oh btw... what is it going to cost the West to try and keep a foothold in what remains of UA?  35 BN just for starters? 

Sharpen your pencils..  RU raises energy prices for the rest of UA, the West starts dumping boatloads of cash in UA and RU sucks it right out the other end and keeps Crimea happy by providing low gas prices and other benefits.

Putin... he's turning out to be a very astute businessman IMHO.

[Ade]

You're right. According to experts here, trade between Russia and USA is very limited and Europe depends on gas from Russia. A trade war will hurt Russia, sure, but it will also hurt Europe. I don't consider my own country a souvereign nation any more, but a sattelite state that do as it's told by USA and the EU. So if the EU starts sanctions, Norway will follow up and destroy years of progress towards good relations with Russia. Unlike most of you here, we do border Russia and the inhabitants there visit each other and do trade.
 
They claim in the media that Russia provokes. But as I see it, there's plenty of provocations going on from the west and others too. Where's the condemnation of the new rulers in Kiev to outlaw the Russian language? It's very weak indeed. And now as Russia has called off it's military exercise in western Russia, the Poles decides to turn back the heat of the situation by seemingly trying to get NATO to move in it's border with Ukraine.

I kinda agree with most of this surprisingly.


Most posters here seem to be just warmongering silly boys swallowing what the western media are feeding them - you guys realize that escalating this is a no win situation, right? Putin and his army were over the top and are heavy handed going into Crimea, yes, no doubt in my mind about that but the pretend government in Kiev with ties to the far right seem to be no better if you ask me. In the middle are the ethnic Russians and the good Ukrainians that just want peace, and equality.


My guess is that Putin doesn't want Ukraine. What he wants is a seceded Crimea and, tbh, if the majority of the people in Crimea want that, then they should get it. Kiev really would be hypocritical denying the majority what they want after what they've just been through in Kiev to get just that now wouldn't they?

[Voyager36]

 
 

Putin isn't happy with Yanukovich but he needs him to act like the legal president. First Russia will get permission to have joint military exercises, then Russia will get permission to take back the all of Ukraine and reinstate Yanukovich as it's legal president.

Billy, Yanukovich is dead politically - he's not going to be reinstated.

Justme, you are entitled to your beliefs in politics but aren't you disappointed that Russia put in a Ukrainian president who robbed billions from the country?

Russia had very little to do with it, the people of Ukraine elected Yanukovich as President.
 

Why doesn't someone like Klitschko go to the eastern cities and Crimea and start campaigning for votes,banging some heads together between the differing groups,calming people down, and telling  them everyone will have the same rights in the new Ukraine ?

Because it isn't true?
The first thing the remaining deputies in the "rump" Parliament did was to rescind the rights of Russian speakers to use their own language. What message did that send about the rights that they might expect in the new government?

He has no history of previous corruption,he doesn't need the money from being in politics,and he has respect for what he's achieved in life.He's always seemed to be a respectful man when I've seen him talk.I also suspect he's a decent man.

I would suspect that you are right about that. However, he's a political lightweight, who doesn't command much respect of either side.

How many of those extremists are there in Ukraine ?

Chelseaboy, it's not just about extremists, the people of Crimea do not want to stay under the boot of another corrupt government in Kiev.