Reflecting on our K-1 period

[BC]

So far we only have one side of the story, until we get a read from her, lets not get too busy with all the remedies to the problems. 

Doug was told time and time again that he needed to visit her hometown and meet her friends and family, he blew that advice off as useless.  I think he now might have a clue, let's leave him to his own devices.  He knows if this situation is salvageable or not.

Agree.

[Admin]

So far we only have one side of the story, until we get a read from her, lets not get too busy with all the remedies to the problems. 

Doug was told time and time again that he needed to visit her hometown and meet her friends and family, he blew that advice off as useless.  I think he now might have a clue, let's leave him to his own devices.  He knows if this situation is salvageable or not.

jb, I don't think we really know what Doug "blew" off - and what he just chose not to share with the open board. I suspect, in fact I *know*, that he became considerably more circumspect after his initial foray onto the board.

I like what KenC and some others are doing - which is to find some of the jewels of information in all this, so that others might learn something from it. And Doug is owed some gratitude for his courage in sharing information which has been dissected mercilessly. I really think we ought to be circumspect ourselves in what 'conclusions' we try to draw from what has been shared. Far best to adopt the Joe Friday approach - "The Facts Ma'am - Just the Facts."

Just my opinion.

- Dan

[jb]

Dan,

I applaud Doug's courage for this thread of closure, I would have wondered to my grave how it turned out otherwise.

As far as being circumspect, that's exactly what I was advising, we don't know but half of the story.  We can all speculate until the cows come home, but Doug is the only one who knows if the situation is worth pursuing beyond this point.

[BC]

Dan,

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=936.msg20493#msg20493

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=936.msg20573#msg20573

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=936.msg20578#msg20578

and some other posts that followed.. this was back in November.

'blew off' or ignored.. don't think it really matters.. the subject was covered quite well.

Doug, not trying to 20/20 hindsight 'bash' you with this.. just trying to set the record straight.

[Leslie]

FWIW Dan

I don't think we should analyse where Doug went wrong on this thread or any other.  Doug is not is the habit of listening and on EVERY thread this guy starts he ends up getting hammered.  Pointless and it appears very unfriendly  

[Son of Clyde]

IMHO I think Doug did very well. It was Larysa who seemed homesick and not ready to committ. Maybe it was the age difference and her also never having been married. Doug is 52 so he does have the stability and maturity. Things can change and I do not see it as being over.

[BC]

Clyde,

remember 'birds of a feather'?

[PeeWee]

IMHO I think Doug did very well. It was Larysa who seemed homesick and not ready to committ. Maybe it was the age difference and her also never having been married. Doug is 52 so he does have the stability and maturity. Things can change and I do not see it as being over.

Only Doug and Lara know for certain. Where is Doug? Does he plan on trying again? I hope so. I think it is harder for women to relocate. I would like to see the statistics of those young girls who go away to college located in a town or a state other than their own who return home by Christmas. Other than Saint Joan, aka Jeanne d'Arc, aka Jehanne Darc, not many women I think have that fortitude. Yet we see it in many of our FSU ladies. My admiration to them because they are turely the strong of the strong, in my opinion, but not all can be strong enough.

Peewee

[wiz]

A language barrier is very difficult to over come Who knows what might have transpired if Doug and Larisa could communicate better? It is a romantic notion to think that "love" will be able to over come the ability to communicate. That anyone can have some mystical insight into another's thoughts without sharing a language. Ignoring or making excuses for the lack of progress in English lessons just doesn't cut it here. It is way too important. Conclusion Look for a woman that has at east some English ability. If you are counting on her ability to learn English, pay close attention to her progress and question it if it is not improving

Know the woman you bring over I find it ridiculous that I have to even say this. No amount of translated emails or third party phone calls can replace time together. There were many cute stories of Doug and Larisa getting to know each other once she came to America. But that stage of their relationship should have already transpired before her arrival. With such rudimentary "getting to know you" stages out of the way, you can concentrate on the more serious and important facets of building a life together. Conclusion 90 days is not enough time to court, get to know and marry


Your comments and additions are welcomed.
KenC

KenC

Having read all his previous posts I never thought this relationship would be succesfull.

You make the most valid point regarding speaking the Language. No Language no communication and the relationship is doomed to failure! We must stop kidding ourselves!

Of course you must allow time to get to know each other and several trips needed for that.
Agree also with you that 90 days is very short time and you must think of over 1 year before proposing. If you can have to woman around living with you say for 6 months or a year then you have better chances.

Then the age difference is also very important!

Wiz

[KenC]

IMHO I think Doug did very well.

What do you mean by this? Do you agree with his methodology? His criteria for selecting Larisa? That Doug did well to keep her here as long as he did?
It was Larysa who seemed homesick and not ready to committ.
So it was all her fault? Shouldn't Doug shoulder some responsibility in bringing over a woman that knew him so little? Wasn't it a mutual "come over for 90 days and let's see how it works out?" Well, this is how it works out!
Maybe it was the age difference and her also never having been married.
Your logic is F'd up. Doug has never been married either and he was a part of that age differential too.
Doug is 52 so he does have the stability and maturity.
Stable and mature? You got to be kidding.
Things can change and I do not see it as being over.

You know if you and the rest of the rah rah guys had any balls, you would have tried to save Doug from himself. You, Turbo, RacerX or Bruno might have been able to talk some sense into him instead of just saying "you go boy!" You guys need to take some responsibility for your lack of good advice. Being just a cheerleader is not being a very good friend.

There is such a thing a "responsible posting" which you didn't demonstrate when it came to Doug. Your "support group" (Oprah) mentality was not what Doug needed. By doing so you only fed his fantasy that he might succeed. As we see, it didn't work out too well, now, did it? The guy needed help not someone blowing sunshine up his ass. But with the handful of guys here that told him he was doing everything right, he mistakenly thought he had a chance. You are the guys that should be ashamed of yourself.
KenC

[RacerX]

Man meets woman, woman likes man, man likes woman, they decide to live together, woman decides to go back home.

Is this really so difficult to understand? It happens millions of time here.

WRT giving advice to a man about men/women - forget it.  I long ago stopped giving relationship advice, and there’s no way I would be stupid  enough to do it for mixed marriages (RW/AM).  Might do it over a couple beers when asked, but not here.

FWIW, I don’t feel this thread is the proper venue to be delineation of anyone’s words of wisdom.  If it were, I would list having an inappropriate age difference as the number one criteria that is already reflective of a failed relationship. The other “details” can be corrected in time, biology cannot.

[Rim]

You know if you and the rest of the rah rah guys had any balls, you would have tried to save Doug from himself. You, Turbo, RacerX or Bruno might have been able to talk some sense into him instead of just saying "you go boy!" You guys need to take some responsibility for your lack of good advice. Being just a cheerleader is not being a very good friend.

There is such a thing a "responsible posting" which you didn't demonstrate when it came to Doug. Your "support group" (Oprah) mentality was not what Doug needed. By doing so you only fed his fantasy that he might succeed. As we see, it didn't work out too well, now, did it? The guy needed help not someone blowing sunshine up his ass. But with the handful of guys here that told him he was doing everything right, he mistakenly thought he had a chance. You are the guys that should be ashamed of yourself.
KenC

The time for "good advice" is before any of us bring a woman to America, but once she is here, everyone should be supportive of the choice and adding, not subtracting, from his emotional well-being. To understand human nature is to understand that we can more easily see the right choice for ourselves when we can feel the support of our friends lifting us up, instead of the unwanted weight of their reticule shoving our faces into the dirt. You can't talk a man out of love, you can only be his friend until he sees it for himself.

[Vaughn]

The time for "good advice" is before any of us bring a woman to America, but once she is here, everyone should be supportive of the choice and adding, not subtracting, from his emotional well-being.

Rim, last year Doug asked repeatedly for approval and instead got mostly "tough advice" that he countered with philosophy borne of inexperience. After Larisa arrived, I noticed many offers of support
and well-wishes...

Doug, it was classy of you to post your story here. Despite the odds,
I had hoped you and she could somehow work things out together.
I trust you'll reconsider your ways by rereading KenC's list of
suggestions. Toss the notion of another nation out the window, Doug,
it smacks of desperation - a different result is unlikely unless you
are willing to regroup and make measureable changes in yourself.
This is not criticism of you per se, but rather a suggestion that an
honest self-inventory could be of great benefit. I wish you well no
matter what.

Vaughn

[BC]

A little humor for those that may have missed it:

http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/today/creators/bc/bc0308g.gif

Let's face it.. at one time or other we all have screwed up with the 'L' word (add 'ust' or 'ove' as appropriate).

A lot of excellent posts and ground covered in this thread but I'm going to take a break and give PG some time to catch his breath and some room to recover.

[Bruno]

You, Turbo, RacerX or Bruno might have been able to talk some sense into him instead of just saying "you go boy!" You guys need to take some responsibility for your lack of good advice. Being just a cheerleader is not being a very good friend.

Yes, i have defend Doug sometime, mainly when these like you and some other was bashing him and his woman... when some have say that beauty convention don't exist in Ukraine, so she was certainly a hooker... when people have begin say that she was a ugly woman... It is these bashing people who have make that Doug don't listen anymore the good advice... i have say him that a second visit was a must but it was not listen anymore... i think that the "hurry" behavour is partially due to the bashing from the very beginning...

Doug have receive some good advice but it was his own choice to not follow them...

And if he have follow the advice of the bashing one, what will be the result... since he is a simple bus driver, some have think that he don't qualify to find his hapiness... yes, some of your advice are good but difficult to seek the jewel in a mountain of shit and insult !

[KenC]

Man meets woman, woman likes man, man likes woman, they decide to live together, woman decides to go back home.

Is this really so difficult to understand? It happens millions of time here.

WRT giving advice to a man about men/women - forget it.  I long ago stopped giving relationship advice, and there’s no way I would be stupid  enough to do it for mixed marriages (RW/AM).  Might do it over a couple beers when asked, but not here.

FWIW, I don’t feel this thread is the proper venue to be delineation of anyone’s words of wisdom.  If it were, I would list having an inappropriate age difference as the number one criteria that is already reflective of a failed relationship. The other “details” can be corrected in time, biology cannot.

Interesting. And you base this opinion on what exactly? And just exactly what is an approppriate age difference? And as further proof, your own wife is how much younger? And what exactly makes this the "number one criteria" for failed relationships? I find it very interesting that "age difference" was never really mentioned before, by you or Doug. Now is a good time for such advice!
KenC

[KenC]

Yes, i have defend Doug sometime, mainly when these like you and some other was bashing him and his woman... when some have say that beauty convention don't exist in Ukraine, so she was certainly a hooker... when people have begin say that she was a ugly woman... It is these bashing people who have make that Doug don't listen anymore the good advice... i have say him that a second visit was a must but it was not listen anymore... i think that the "hurry" behavour is partially due to the bashing from the very beginning...

Doug have receive some good advice but it was his own choice to not follow them...

And if he have follow the advice of the bashing one, what will be the result... since he is a simple bus driver, some have think that he don't qualify to find his hapiness... yes, some of your advice are good but difficult to seek the jewel in a mountain of *snip* and insult !

Bruno,
Just for the record, please find one post where I bashed Larisa's looks or profession. I will save you time, because there isn't any. No one every said that Doug "didn't deserve" happiness, just that the steps he was taking made for a high risk probability of finding ever lasting happiness.

We will never know what the outcome would have been if Doug had gone on a second trip, met the parents, gotten to know Larisa better or insured her English skills were up to snuff. But the results couldn't have been any less successful than they turned out, now, could they?

Your post typifies the problem that you "sunshine boys" have with deflecting good solid criticism of the methods (or lack there of) used into an attack on Doug as a person. One can be a great person and deserve all that is good, but use faulty logic and stupid decisions to generally screw up any possibility of success. Being a "good guy" certainly doesn't insure that you will succeed. And, oh, by the way, how is your own good guy routine working for you, Bruno?
KenC

[Photo Guy]

I made the mistake of reading a jb post from yesterday. Another malevolent untrue statement designed by him to make me look even more stupid than I actually am. Ha.
He wrote:
Doug was told time and time again that he needed to visit her hometown and meet her friends and family, he blew that advice off as useless.
No. In reality, she made this decision and I did not oppose it. You can say that maybe I should've won that disagreement, but she was determined to come here and probably was a little worried that her parents would scare me away. ...It's too personal to go into the exact details.

I look at the last year, as different phases of 'dating' her. Imagine if the authorities put you and your Western girlfriend together for 3 months and said okay after these weeks you must decide to marry or not. It's rather absurd, but that's how it is for many couples during the K-1 period. Now let's say this period is preceded by numerous trips to her home turf, for a week or two of 'dating'. I believe that even if a typical couple follows that more 'sensible' approach, the 90 day K-1 period will still be very similar to what Larisa and I experienced, regardless of the pre-K1 trips. There will be guys like me that conclude after 80 or 90 days that marriage is the right decision or not. Now is that more or less 'sensible' than a situation where a guy flies back and forth 5 times and then reaches the same conclusion after: to marry or not? I guess my point is that a sensible decision can be made after only a couple of months for one couple, but for another couple, they may only learn who the other person is after a few years. Some individuals are more 'open' and some more 'closed', difficult to read, so I think it is absurd to judge the interactions of a couple and reach conclusions about how well they know each other. In my case, I feel my initial perceptions of Larisa were highly accurate. During that week in Kiev, I did not see many of her complexities, but I could see the core of who she is.

Presently, I'll go with the flow, meaning 'if it's meant to be, it will be'. Otherwise we will go our separate ways and I will certainly not regret my association with her. I don't think this journey has been anything like a 'train wreck'. Like any kind of dating, the end result can't be guaranteed. All you can do is experience it and decide if it makes you happy. There's always the element of risk. How much of a chance are you willing to take?

[KenC]

Doug,
Don't you think that meeting her parents would have helped your cause? They might have been your biggest supporters and calmed any fears that she might have had instead telling her to come home. It is only human nature to be nervous introducing a suitor to your parents. By "not opposing it" you agreed to not meet in her home town. Unfortunately, you will never know if even a second trip might have changed the outcome dramatically.
KenC

[Photo Guy]

Yes, I agree.  In retrospect, I felt like she wanted to hide her 'bad' family from me.
Not making that second trip probably was a mistake.  -doug

Success or failure?
I succeeded in arranging a 90 day meeting. A little less than three months of living together.
We succeeded in discovering a lot about each other. We learned a lot. We succeeded in
creating a very close bond. We failed to create the need for an immediate marriage commitment,
but I suspect that three months just was not long enough. It could have been much less
successful. She could have discovered she hated me. I could have discovered she is a compulsive
liar and a thief. All in all, I spent time with a great individual. We are two independent souls, who
may come together or go our separate ways. It is by no means a horrible failure, unless you
consider ALL dating that does not result in a 'successful' marriage, to be a failure.

[BC]

Doug,

I see it didn't take long to catch your breath 

jb or anyone else here can only give their thoughts to what is known.  Now you throw in this tidbit of info that even I would consider to be a huge red flag.

I just re-read a few of your older posts.. yes you were admittedly gambling from the beginning.  It's like you're playing poker, even raising the ante when your cards are the only player with cards facing up on the table for all to see. That's not a reasonable 'element of risk'.. imho.

The Che sara', sara' attitude is only valid if you truly have no powers to influence or change a situation. Used otherwise it's a statement of total and utter defeat..  Use it wisely.

[Photo Guy]

Ken wrote to Bruno:
Bruno,
Just for the record, please find one post where I bashed Larisa's looks or profession. I will save you time, because there isn't any.
Ken, for the record, I distinctly remember you telling me I
'could do better' (than Larisa)

[Bruno]

Just for the record, please find one post where I bashed Larisa's looks or profession. I will save you time, because there isn't any.

Maybe not you personaly... but the "clue bat" group have bashed Larisa's looks and profession, Doug's profession... when you will make move a ass, you can use the carott or the whip... usually, a mix of the two method give some good result... a group of people here love use only the whip, it seem that they take pleasure to bash... in your case, you are one of these that who use the whip but i need to agree that you make it in a relative good way... you post don't content insult, have solid argument but can be sometime hard due to the tone...

No one every said that Doug "didn't deserve" happiness, just that the steps he was taking made for a high risk probability of finding ever lasting happiness.

We will never know what the outcome would have been if Doug had gone on a second trip, met the parents, gotten to know Larisa better or insured her English skills were up to snuff. But the results couldn't have been any less successful than they turned out, now, could they?

Results have can be less successful that they are now... my big fear with Doug was that he choice to marry Larissa without know her enough... pressed by the time... Seem that Larissa have take the decision who is right for the actual time... Imagine if she was a GCG and have marry Doug... Yes, situation can always be worse !!!

Your post typifies the problem that you "sunshine boys" have with deflecting good solid criticism of the methods (or lack there of) used into an attack on Doug as a person. One can be a great person and deserve all that is good, but use faulty logic and stupid decisions to generally screw up any possibility of success. Being a "good guy" certainly doesn't insure that you will succeed. And, oh, by the way, how is your own good guy routine working for you, Bruno?

"Sunshine boys"  funny, it is one of the nickname my girlfriend use for call me... my sunshine, my teddybear, my grizzly, etc... "faulty logic and stupid decision"... if good logic and good decision can only lead to succes, more people will be happy... We only control partially our life... In the case of relationship, two people with how logic take own decision... if one don't follow the same logic or make other decision, the relationship can suffert and break down... Being a good guy is not the key to succes, but it is a quality who help in relationship... And about myself, don't worry... I have find the lady and marriage is planned in January 2007... not yet sure where... maybe Belgium, maybe Ukraine... My actual case is not really something in the norm... I have know her via forum, long time ago, before my Nikolaev girl and these from Belarus... We was friend and with time ( very long time, more of one year ), other feeling have appear... She have never seek to marry a foreign man, she have never think to go live outside Ukraine... Simply destiny have make that our road have cross... no agency or dating site involved, only forum... our initial communication was only friendship, nothing more... and this have allow me to know her very good... the first few month of our communication, i have think that she was a ukrainian man... only after almost one year, when some feeling have appear, we have exchange photo... it was almost a "blind date"... knowing her but never see her...

[Vaughn]

Success or failure?
I succeeded in arranging a 90 day meeting

Doug, you failed to understand that the K-1 is not a
trial period. You've brought her over here, now she's
gone home - and you still haven't met the family? At
least twice I suggested you slow down and go back again,
as did many others. Now you're rationalizing that there
exists some merit in your experience - sheeesh!! Instead
of holding others accountable for past remarks, why not
shed the armor and learn from this?

Yes, you should have insisted. Face time in her own kitchen.
"Go with the flow" is a haphazard path at best.

Vaughn

[KenC]

Ken wrote to Bruno:
Bruno,
Just for the record, please find one post where I bashed Larisa's looks or profession. I will save you time, because there isn't any.
Ken, for the record, I distinctly remember you telling me I
'could do better' (than Larisa)

to be fair, Doug, that was only said in a private email or PM to you after you badgered me for an opinion on Larisa. It was never posted here. The strongest thing I ever said to you in private regarding Larisa's looks was that "she was not to my taste in women. I think you could do better." I know you and the sunshine boys tend to lump all of your critics in the same category, but I personally think it is wrong to criticize a man's gf's looks on an open forum.

Your expectations of success are a lot lower than most or just a rationalization of your failure. I think much more of the latter than the former. There is no doubt that there were some good times for you and Larisa during that 90 day period, but to discover that she was not a lier or a thief, is as low of expectations as I can imagine (and I cannot even imagine that that could ever be any measure of success). So you must be thrilled with the outcome?

The bottom line of this is that marrying a RW is a high risk process at best. But it needent be as high a risk as you made it. Jousting at the windmills of logic makes for some very romantic rhetoric, but in the end results, usually just makes the jouster look foolish.
KenC