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[Boethius]

No selective memory.In the appropriate thread about W. Ukrainian history, your last post already showed your true nature, in that you once again tried to claim there were no fascists in Ukraine.

No wonder you don't work.  You are too stupid to read basic English.

Here is the post.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=19504.msg403224#msg403224


You will note.  The words are not mine.  They are from a Ukrainian politician, and I merely translated them.  The point he was making is that, unlike what is asserted, there is no huge fascist movement in Ukraine today.

Want a link to it?Then there is this:Bandera is a symbol.  It is not so much that many Ukrainians venerate him, but he is a symbol of resistance to a hated Stalinist past, and in particular, and, by extension, rule from Moscow.   Moscow's rule in Western Ukraine after WWII was particularly onerous, far more so than in Central or Eastern Ukraine, and lasted until the collapse of the USSR.  More than 100,000 Western Ukrainians died fighting communism in the aftermath of WWII.  That is what Bandera represents to many in that region.http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?Bandera is a symbol to some in the region, just like Hitler was a symbol to Germans in 1933.  The key difference being, that there are not statues of Hitler all over Germany.

I have never claimed OUN was not fascist.  It was, although it moved from that platform in 1944.


There were many fascist movements in the world, and particularly in Europe, at that time, so it is not something remarkable.




Bandera is not a symbol in Ukraine because he was a fascist.  He is a symbol because he fought back.  You will never understand that.  I can see that very clearly. 

[Doll]

"War is merely the continuation of policy by other means."
Clausewitz.

Boe  doesn't know 

[Doll]

Certainly.  But today's political events and disputes should not be inserted in a memorial to venerate those who sacrificed in the past.

Putin forgot to ask you how to celebrate this holiday

[Boethius]

He didn't have to ask me.  But I am free to comment on him politicizing it.

[AC]

I have never denied the Holocaust in Ukraine.  But unlike you, I note it was committed primarily by Germans.  You are the one whitewashing history.  It wasn't UPA who shot 200,000 Jews at Babi Yar.  It wasn't Banderites that were Einsatzgruppen.  In fact, it was after witnessing Einsatzgruppen shoot Jews and stepping in brain that lead Himmler to find a less "psychologically damaging" (to German soldiers) method of killing Jews, i.e., the gas chambers.

Typical Canadian/W. Ukrainian revisionist history.  All pogroms accomplished by Ukrainians.  Babi Yar accomplished with much assistance of Ukrainian police and your beloved UPA.  All the Jewish property immediately looted and stolen primarily by Ukrainians.  The subject stinks to high heaven.  Enough. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Demjanjuk

[Doll]

He didn't have to ask me.  But I am free to comment on him politicizing it.

So is everybody here.

[Boethius]

Typical Canadian/W. Ukrainian revisionist history.  All pogroms accomplished by Ukrainians.  Babi Yar accomplished with much assistance of Ukrainian police and your beloved UPA.  All the Jewish property immediately looted and stolen primarily by Ukrainians.  The subject stinks to high heaven.  Enough. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Demjanjuk

Remember, Demjanjuk initially was convicted of being someone he was not. 


How many Ukrainians organized death camps?  How many produced the gas that killed Jews?  How many Ukrainians were Einstazgruppen?  Are you aware of German archives that complain that they couldn't incite the Ukrainian population to carry out pogroms?

[Boethius]

Oh, and Brad, the leading scholars on UPA's involvement in the Holocaust is John-Paul Himka, a Ukrainian, based in Western Ukraine. 


Almost all of the works published in this field are published by the CIUS Press, which is also based in Western Ukraine.


Really, you should read a little more.

[BillyB]

Obama (as usual) missed a chance for diplomacy.  Instead of giving this particular celebration a cold shoulder, I think it would have been better to send a US delegation led by VP Biden, with strict orders he not insert his foot into his mouth.

Celebrating the end of WWII is good.  Being diplomatic and showing up would have been good of top leaders in the West.

Not showing up just makes Russia more determined to keep slapping the face of the West.  If we had shown up, at least there might have been a tiny stop to the overheated rhetoric; and a tiny chance for peace.

I wouldn't want to go to somebody's one day party to celebrate when they are trying to send my country into decline the other 364 days out of the year.

[Boethius]

So is everybody here.

Did I ever state otherwise?

[sleepycat]

Putin forgot to ask you how to celebrate this holiday

They should celebrate this holiday by starting to learn Mandarin, since within the next 50 years Putinland is going to be governed from Beijing anyway.

Seriously, why do those Putinists always have to get their knickers in a twist whenever some of us choose not to care about their silly fancy dress holiday parade? 

[msmobyone]

Ladies ... Personally, I don't think any one's posts are 'worthless'  - some are just more informed than others

[pitbull]

I would say that you are/were correct, except that certain very determined persons interjected their disrespect of the event, so it went downhill from there.

Obama (as usual) missed a chance for diplomacy.  Instead of giving this particular celebration a cold shoulder, I think it would have been better to send a US delegation led by VP Biden, with strict orders he not insert his foot into his mouth.

Celebrating the end of WWII is good.  Being diplomatic and showing up would have been good of top leaders in the West.

Not showing up just makes Russia more determined to keep slapping the face of the West.  If we had shown up, at least there might have been a tiny stop to the overheated rhetoric; and a tiny chance for peace.

Agree with AC. This date is huge for Russia but just as huge for the whole world. A great chance at diplomacy was wasted by the West.
I can understand Putin's jab in his Victory Day speech. Hundreds of thousands of Soviet soldiers died liberating Europe - Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria. They were all invited to the celebration and just ignored it. Other than diplomacy, some gratitude was in order.
Here is a beautiful song about a Soviet soldier, "Aliosha", the monument is in Plovdiv, Bulgaria.
 

 
Every 4th, or even every 3rd person died in Belarus, "the bloodlands". My beautiful city, Minsk was 90% destroyed, there were virtually no bridges in the republic by 1944. No matter what the current political situation, the world better not forget.

[lordtiberius]

The ambivalence the Russian demonstrates to every aspect of his history except this day is maddening.  Would we even have a Victory day without the Soviet-Nazi nonaggression pact, US lend lease or if the West didn't open up the second front?  Are these people even the least bit curious about Yalta, why they never cared for their soldiers who the Nazis captured or why so few captured Nazis came home or five years after the war started.  This lack intellectual curiosity from this bunch is gaudy and macabre.

[Brasscasing]

WW2 - I'm waiting for the Russian/Putin celebration of the Ribbentrop-Molotov non-aggression pact or Nazi-Soviet Pact signed 23 August 1939. You know...the agreement between Hitler and Stalin that allowed Nazi Germany to invade and subsequently carve up Poland with Comrade Stalin launching the European war that eventually became WW2...that outta be a rip snorter commemoration day as well.


Stalin and Ribbentrop after the signature of the Soviet–Nazi German pact. August 23, 1939.

Stalin was quite happy to let Hitler run amok in Western Europe. It wasn't until Hitler got to the 'Invade the USSR' item on his 'to do' list that Stalin pleaded with the allied countries, already under enormous strain, for equipment and supplies.



Political satire circa 1939.

In the overall scheme of things Stalin was the top Nazi collaborator. He didn't save the world from Hitler - he initially allied with him hoping to scrounge some scraps after the dust settled.

If it hadn't been for the US and Commonwealth lend-lease programs supplying the USSR in '41 thru '42 there's a strong probability the USSR would have collapsed.



Soviet general A. A. Kuznetsov climbs from a British Hurricane cloaked in Soviet colors. (National Archives)

Maybe the Russians should be including the true history of the Great Patriotic War in their celebrations...

http://www.historynet.com/did-russia-really-go-it-alone-how-lend-lease-helped-the-soviets-defeat-the-germans.htm

Brass

[AC]

WW2 - I'm waiting for the Russian/Putin celebration of the Ribbentrop-Molotov non-aggression pact or Nazi-Soviet Pact signed 23 August 1939. You know...the agreement between Hitler and Stalin that allowed Nazi Germany to invade and subsequently carve up Poland with Comrade Stalin launching the European war that eventually became WW2...that outta be a rip snorter commemoration day as well.

I don't dispute any of this, and most from the West do not.  May Day celebration should be about honoring the dead and their sacrifice and less about the politics.  At least for that one day.

If Ronald Reagan were President, would he have missed a chance for diplomacy?

[AC]

I wouldn't want to go to somebody's one day party to celebrate when they are trying to send my country into decline the other 364 days out of the year.

Not many people would.  Diplomats are supposed to be those very special people who can rise above it all and work towards the common good.  If John Kerry and the Obama administration worked half as hard at negotiating a peace deal with Russia as they have at trying to give Nuclear Arms to Iran, they might accomplish something.

[Brasscasing]

I don't dispute any of this, and most from the West do not.  May Day celebration should be about honoring the dead and their sacrifice and less about the politics.  At least for that one day.

If Ronald Reagan were President, would he have missed a chance for diplomacy?

Which dead? The dead from the Military purges of the 30's, the dead from the Gulags, the dead from the engineered famines, the dead from the population relocations or the dead from the NKGB secret trials (enemies of the state disappearances)?

If Ronald Reagan were still President we wouldn't be posting on this thread because the events of the last three years would never have transpired. Putin wouldn't dare be invading neighboring countries and mouthing off the way he's been doing or Ronnie would have b*tch slapped him long before now.

Brass
 

[AC]

Which dead? The dead from the Military purges of the 30's, the dead from the Gulags, the dead from the engineered famines, the dead from the population relocations or the dead from the NKGB secret trials (enemies of the state disappearances)?

If Ronald Reagan were still President we wouldn't be posting on this thread because the events of the last three years would never have transpired. Putin wouldn't dare be invading neighboring countries and mouthing off the way he's been doing or Ronnie would have b*tch slapped him long before now.

Brass

All very true but far from the total picture.  How many additional soldiers and civilians died due to Nazi Germany's war of aggression against Europe?  Were those soldiers and civilians concerned with politics or did they just want it all to end and a return to peace?

[AC]

Agree with AC. This date is huge for Russia but just as huge for the whole world. A great chance at diplomacy was wasted by the West.
I can understand Putin's jab in his Victory Day speech. Hundreds of thousands of Soviet soldiers died liberating Europe - Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria. They were all invited to the celebration and just ignored it. Other than diplomacy, some gratitude was in order.
Here is a beautiful song about a Soviet soldier, "Aliosha", the monument is in Plovdiv, Bulgaria.
 

 
Every 4th, or even every 3rd person died in Belarus, "the bloodlands". My beautiful city, Minsk was 90% destroyed, there were virtually no bridges in the republic by 1944. No matter what the current political situation, the world better not forget.

Beautiful song on the video, thank you for sharing. 

[Boethius]

Agree with AC. This date is huge for Russia but just as huge for the whole world. A great chance at diplomacy was wasted by the West.
I can understand Putin's jab in his Victory Day speech. Hundreds of thousands of Soviet soldiers died liberating Europe - Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria. They were all invited to the celebration and just ignored it. Other than diplomacy, some gratitude was in order.

Every 4th, or even every 3rd person died in Belarus, "the bloodlands". My beautiful city, Minsk was 90% destroyed, there were virtually no bridges in the republic by 1944. No matter what the current political situation, the world better not forget.

I disagree with you, pitbull.   I don't think, given what Russia has done, both in invading Crimea, and in sending weaponry/equipment/personnel to Donbas, that Western leaders could go to celebrate Victory Day, with its garish military displays - military hardware the Russians are using to kill Ukrainians and foment war on European soil.


Putin has attempted to arrogate the USSR's victory for Russia, ignoring the roles of other nations, including Belarus and Ukraine, both of which lost greater numbers of their nationals than did Russia.   That should be considered as well.

[lordtiberius]

Well, a mutual colleague of ours and poster who has departed this forum for reasons on his own reported to me from Russia that the sanctions have not worked.  Gas prices are back up.  All is well back in the USSR.

I am glad that the West didn't go to Putin's Dead Man's party but that's about it.

[AC]

How many Ukrainians organized death camps?  How many produced the gas that killed Jews?  How many Ukrainians were Einstazgruppen?

You really should read more.  And not just the revisionist W. Ukrainian "historians" that you prefer.  Start with the link I posted on the other thread:  http://www.ushmm.org/m/pdfs/20130500-holocaust-in-ukraine.pdf                                                   

And then there is this:

excerpt
Khatyn or Chatyń (Belarusian and Russian: Хаты́нь, pronounced [xɐˈtɨnʲ]) was a village of 26 houses and 156 inhabitants in Belarus, in Lahoysk Raion, Minsk Region, 50 km away from Minsk. On March 22, 1943, the entire population of the village was massacred by the 118th Schutzmannschaft Nazi battalion.  The battalion was formed in July 1942 in Kiev and was made up mostly of Ukrainian nationalist collaborators from Western Ukraine, Hiwis[1][2][3] and the Dirlewanger Waffen-SS special battalion.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khatyn_massacre

[mendeleyev]

Brass:

WW2 - I'm waiting for the Russian/Putin celebration of the Ribbentrop-Molotov non-aggression pact or Nazi-Soviet Pact signed 23 August 1939. You know...the agreement between Hitler and Stalin that allowed Nazi Germany to invade and subsequently carve up Poland with Comrade Stalin launching the European war that eventually became WW2...that outta be a rip snorter commemoration day as well

.

Brass, you no longer have to wait. The rehabilitation of that pact has begun. Putin is now defending that agreement as it supposedly saved the CCCP.

http://meduza.io/news/2015/05/10/putin-nazval-pakt-molotova-ribbentropa-vazhnym-dlya-obespecheniya-bezopasnosti-sssr

[Doll]

I've listen to Putin more than one time- I don't remember he's ever ignored Byelorussians , Ukrainians and all the other what comes to Victory.
BTW, I haven't seen any hint of chauvinism on May, 9th.


Pitbull, I am half Belorussian! My dad is from Mogilev region