С Днем Победы!

[2tallbill]

Dewds !

What's up with the personal crap?

It's Victory day, not lets all spew a bunch of angry crap day.
WW2 was a titanic, tragic, terrible time in human existence.
Celebrating the end of it makes a lot of sense to me.



Udachi!


Bill

[Ed S.]

Dewds !

What's up with the personal crap?

It's Victory day, not lets all spew a bunch of angry crap day.
WW2 was a titanic, tragic, terrible time in human existence.
Celebrating the end of it makes a lot of sense to me.


Udachi!


Bill

+100

I see it as celebrating the average men and women that were at the front, not the callous regime that ruled over them.

[BillyB]

I was told in WW II Russia lost many, many times more men than U.S. Plus all the civilians. Millions. For the U.S. I read 400,000 casualties. Not to take away from our efforts but to give Russia their due.

Some of the lives lost were because Stalin initially joined the wrong side, Hitler's side. Have you seen Enemy at the Gates? True story of a Russian sniper who became a Russian hero and inspired the troops and gave people hope. There are scenes in there where Russian officers sent men short on ammo and guns into waves of German fire. Almost everyone would die. Russian soldiers who survived and retreated got shot by their own troops. Stalin executed his best and brightest officers and the results were many Russians dying. I'd have to say based on poor leadership and incompetence, Stalin killed more Russians than Hitler.

[Slumba]

I do wish both the Russian, and the Ukrainian people, well - after all, among the Ukrainian people there are  no doubt Great Patriotic War heroes also, right?

My personal view, is that whatever disagreements there are between Russian and Ukraine, can be solved without violence and without Russia sending their troops in through the backdoor.

I have met a number of Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarussians (not many) - and many of them are very nice people, a real pleasure to talk to.

[Steamer]

Therefore, you still have not proven your assertion, and I will continue to ask for evidence when you make such spurious allegations.

Why, I already have, you just choose to ignore it.

[Boethius]

You didn't prove it.  Read my riposte.

[Boethius]

Dewds !

What's up with the personal crap?

It's Victory day, not lets all spew a bunch of angry crap day.
WW2 was a titanic, tragic, terrible time in human existence.
Celebrating the end of it makes a lot of sense to me.



Udachi!


Bill

Putin is the one who politicized the event, with his Victory Day speech.

[AC]

Boetius, George Bush senior was the HEAD not just an agent of the US top inelligence agency. It didn't affect his popularity in any way.
So your mentioning of Putin's former post is totally irrelevant and worthless, as any posts you're writing.

       

[AC]

The original point was not that a former KGB officer is now Russian president.  It was that Steamer has expressed admiration for this killer.   But, I shouldn't have expected you to understand that.  Neither reading comprehension, nor, for that matter, the desire thereof, have ever been your strong suits.

So what.  You repeatedly express admiration for war criminal and Nazi collaborator Bandera.

[AC]

Dewds !

What's up with the personal crap?

It's Victory day, not lets all spew a bunch of angry crap day.
WW2 was a titanic, tragic, terrible time in human existence.
Celebrating the end of it makes a lot of sense to me.

I would say that you are/were correct, except that certain very determined persons interjected their disrespect of the event, so it went downhill from there.

Obama (as usual) missed a chance for diplomacy.  Instead of giving this particular celebration a cold shoulder, I think it would have been better to send a US delegation led by VP Biden, with strict orders he not insert his foot into his mouth.

Celebrating the end of WWII is good.  Being diplomatic and showing up would have been good of top leaders in the West.

Not showing up just makes Russia more determined to keep slapping the face of the West.  If we had shown up, at least there might have been a tiny stop to the overheated rhetoric; and a tiny chance for peace.

[Boethius]

So what.  You repeatedly express admiration for war criminal and Nazi collaborator Bandera.

No one has ever accused you of being the sharpest blade in the drawer, and this once again proves that.


I have never expressed admiration for Bandera.  I have posted on this very forum that he was ruthless, responsible for assassinations in the interwar period, and that had he ever formed a Ukrainian state, he, as a leader, likely would have been a dictator.  But, none of that negates the fact of why he is a symbol for some Ukrainians in Ukraine today.  Your paucity of knowledge of Ukraine is why you think in the simplistic, black and white terms that you do.

[Boethius]

      

You can be rally proud if you have AC, a twice banned poster who has lied about that fact, as one of your admirers.

[Doll]

Boetius, George Bush senior was the HEAD not just an agent of the US top inelligence agency. It didn't affect his popularity in any way.
So your mentioning of Putin's former post is totally irrelevant and worthless, as any posts you're writing.

О, спасибо!
 

[AC]

You can be rally proud if you have AC, a twice banned poster who has lied about that fact, as one of your admirers.

And you can be "rally" proud of your hero, Bandera, who actively already showed his hatred of Jews, Poles, and any Ukrainians who opposed him, as well as ethnic Russians, long before the Nazi's put him in prison.

[Doll]

The rest of the world is  who ? You? Your village? Your Walmart/backhoe coworkers? Meanwhile, San Fran, for example,  can be considered a portion of the rest of the world. I do know they are  preparing for the gay parade in San Fran. Folks in SF are complaining that the gay community is aggressively spreading info leaflets in offices of the corporate world. Take all the pride you can, Mr. Cynicism

[AC]

No one has ever accused you of being the sharpest blade in the drawer, and this once again proves that.


I have never expressed admiration for Bandera.  I have posted on this very forum that he was ruthless, responsible for assassinations in the interwar period, and that had he ever formed a Ukrainian state, he, as a leader, likely would have been a dictator.  But, none of that negates the fact of why he is a symbol for some Ukrainians in Ukraine today.  Your paucity of knowledge of Ukraine is why you think in the simplistic, black and white terms that you do.

The only person who is obtuse and has a "paucity of knowledge" regarding the Holocaust in Ukraine is you.  Why not label me a Russian or a Jew, because I refuse to accept your deliberate white washing of history??

[Doll]

I

 

BTW, your English syntax is poor, as it usually slips when you are hot under the collar.

BTW, English is not her or my first language.

[Doll]

Given that you assumed I was a Jew (referring to my as "special", the way only a true Russian patriot would refer to someone Jewish), you wouldn't know my motivations if they came up and bit you in the . . .

[Doll]

Putin is the one who politicized the event, with his Victory Day speech.

Boe, you are really amusing today!
War IS politics

[Boethius]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=post;quote=403369;topic=19510.25;last_msg=403373
He is not my hero.  Selective memory much?  Here are just a few of my past posts on Bandera -

I have never claimed Bandera is a hero, nor do I believe that.  I don't villify him, though.  He did many ruthless things (ordered executions, that is why he was in a Polish prison when the war broke out).  UPA did carry out ethnic cleansing in Volhyn, and you can search my posts where I have never denied this.  However, there is no proof that Bandera gave that order, or was involved

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17810.msg371330#msg371330

Western Ukrainians are prejudiced against Ukrainians who don't speak Ukrainian.  Russians who lived there during Soviet times have left because of harassment.  They make a point of glorifying Bandera to Polish tourists (Bandera's army ethnically cleansed villages of Poles, slaughtering over 20,000 Poles in Volhyn', mostly women and children, and this has been an issue in relations between the two countries).

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13615.msg270049#msg270049

I have never denied UPA was responsible for the slaughter of tens of thousands of Poles in Volyn'.  But to this day, there is nothing to indicate Bandera knew about this, let alone ordered it.I have posted he was ruthless, and he was.  Had he ever gained power, I believe he would have been a dictator.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=19061.msg396090#msg396090

Bandera is a symbol.  It is not so much that many Ukrainians venerate him, but he is a symbol of resistance to a hated Stalinist past, and in particular, and, by extension, rule from Moscow.   Moscow's rule in Western Ukraine after WWII was particularly onerous, far more so than in Central or Eastern Ukraine, and lasted until the collapse of the USSR.  More than 100,000 Western Ukrainians died fighting communism in the aftermath of WWII.  That is what Bandera represents to many in that region.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?

UPA did accept money and weapons from the Germans, but they viewed the communists and the Nazis as their enemies.  However, they did commit war crimes, and some of their ideology was similar to fascism (with an emphasis on ethnic origin).   You will rarely hear Ukrainians admit this.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13666.msg271485#msg271485

Since the collapse of the USSR, archives have proven that UPA was involved in the first L'viv pogrom, though they were not the instigators.  They did round up Jews for the Germans, though.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16816.msg351854#msg351854

[AC]

Boe, you are really amusing today!
War IS politics

"War is merely the continuation of policy by other means."
Clausewitz.

[Boethius]

The only person who is obtuse and has a "paucity of knowledge" regarding the Holocaust in Ukraine is you.  Why not label me a Russian or a Jew, because I refuse to accept your deliberate white washing of history??

I have never denied the Holocaust in Ukraine.  But unlike you, I note it was committed primarily by Germans.  You are the one whitewashing history.  It wasn't UPA who shot 200,000 Jews at Babi Yar.  It wasn't Banderites that were Einsatzgruppen.  In fact, it was after witnessing Einsatzgruppen shoot Jews and stepping in brain that lead Himmler to find a less "psychologically damaging" (to German soldiers) method of killing Jews, i.e., the gas chambers.


So, continue to post your lies.



As for labelling, that is a tactic of your "friend" Lyudmila.  I don't care if anyone is Jewish.  I sleep with a Russian, my children have a Russian surname, and I have no animosity toward Russians.  But my husband views the patriotism displayed here as an illness rather than something to be admired or emulated.

[Boethius]

Boe, you are really amusing today!
War IS politics

Certainly.  But today's political events and disputes should not be inserted in a memorial to venerate those who sacrificed in the past.

[Boethius]

BTW, English is not her or my first language.

Irrelevant.  She always makes a point of posting how precise her English language is, and how it is a mark of her superior education/mind.

[AC]

No selective memory.

In the appropriate thread about W. Ukrainian history, your last post already showed your true nature, in that you once again tried to claim there were no fascists in Ukraine.  Want a link to it?

Then there is this:


Bandera is a symbol.  It is not so much that many Ukrainians venerate him, but he is a symbol of resistance to a hated Stalinist past, and in particular, and, by extension, rule from Moscow.   Moscow's rule in Western Ukraine after WWII was particularly onerous, far more so than in Central or Eastern Ukraine, and lasted until the collapse of the USSR.  More than 100,000 Western Ukrainians died fighting communism in the aftermath of WWII.  That is what Bandera represents to many in that region.


http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?

Bandera is a symbol to some in the region, just like Hitler was a symbol to Germans in 1933.  The key difference being, that there are not statues of Hitler all over Germany.