TverRomance

[Admin]

Mike / Greg / Others:

One of the reasons for the "Reviews" section of the site is for people to prepare a review of their experiences with a service provider - and others to add their own. Whereas the forum is a good place to debate the merit - the Reviews section has a bit more 'weight'.

I encourage you to visit the Reviews section and provide others the benefit of your experiences - whether they are/were favorable or unfavorable.

- Dan

[Rvrwind]

My only point with TverRomance is that they are not a Scam.

Wrong! They do the same thing BH does & they have been labeled scam, so why should TR not be labeled a scam?
I can prove several cases where they have writtin' phoney letters & yet you don't want to call a spade a spade. BH has real women too, I know I worked there when many of them joined, & guys who come to TVER get to meet them, I have seen it,  does that change your opinion of them?
For one thing, I don't say anything about my competitors that I cannot prove & substantially I might add. I don't give a rats a$$ if they cooperate with the rest of us or not, like I said, its their loss. I had a couple of clients in town that wanted to meet some of their ladies, they either refused them or as in the case of one fellow charged him $500 US to meet 3 women + another couple of hundred because he had to go to meet one of the ladies in Moscow, just cause they were pissed that he came here through us & didn't use their overinflated prices.
Like I said, you got lucky. You came here through them & used them exsclusively, thats why you got treated so well. Just try straying from the herd & see how things change real fast. I've lived here for almost 4 years & worked for BH & LTP & am more than familiar with all of them, how they operate & who pulls the strings & who doesn't. I knew Natasha long before she started TR using LTP's stolen database, I know Luba quite well too. So don't ever come on this or any board & try to tell me about the agencies in Tver, because pal, you don't have a clue.
Like I said, the fact that they don't want to work with the rest of us is no sweat off my butt or anybody elses for that matter. We are doing just fine without them, the only ones who lose is them & their clients, as I have to tell my guys that want to go there that they can't & that's money out of TR's pocket, not mine.
I'm trying to tone down the infighting & such that has been going on in the past. We have all gone for the throat & we are all still here. So why not work together & do what we say we are trying to do instead of wasting time & energy trying to dis each other. We don't have to like each other, we don't even have to socialize, but what we do have to do is continue cooperating & doing what we are in buisness to do & benifit our clients, both male & female to the most extent we can & that is by not worrying about how he came to Tver or how he got here, just let him walk in & meet the ladies. In my opinion that is the future of this buisness & letter writing will become obsolete!
Not only that, all the fighting just chases everybody away, so why should I cut off my nose to spite my face? Better we should work together & everybody benifits.

[Admin]

Wrong! They do the same thing BH does & they have been labeled scam, so why should TR not be labeled a scam?

I don't have a dog in the fight - but I think the issue is the "labelling."

If one guy visits an agency and has a terrific experience, and ten others feel like they got ripped-off - does that make the one guy's favorable experience (and opinion) any less valid? I don't think so. To that one guy, the agency is NOT a scam agency. Of course, to the other 10 who do feel ripped-off, they would have a counter-opinion.

This is the stuff of many disagreements on these boards - and there is very little in the way of a truly impartial third-party to help arbitrate disputes such as this.

One option that *might* help, is (as I wrote earlier) the Reviews section. If those 10 guys provide information about their negative experience verse the one who had a positive experience, then the readers who read those reviews can draw their own conclusions.

And there are some other possible helpful solutions in the works - to be announced soon.

- Dan

[Rvrwind]

One option that *might* help, is (as I wrote earlier) the Reviews section. If those 10 guys provide information about their negative experience verse the one who had a positive experience, then the readers who read those reviews can draw their own conclusions.

Couldn't agree more Dan, unfortunately it isn't that easy. Of all the guys I am aquainted with or know first hand that have been burned by this or that agency, 1 out of 25 might post about it or report it to a scam site. The others, just bury their head in their a$$ & try to forget it happened to them.
I have yet to see TR on a scam site, yet I can give you 10 guys that they scammed, 3 are members of this very board. That just goes to show you that most people just don't care & one of the reasons I gave up the fight. I can't make any miles swimmin' against the tide.
Then to top it off, I get pi$$ed only because I m an agency owner & I shouln't be permitted to say anythng about my competition. What difference does it make if it is the truth, & I can prove it should be the deciding factor. I agree that if I can't prove it I should keep my mouth shut, but I can & I have plenty of witnesses to coorborrate my statements, so what difference does it make that I am an owner??? It should not be a matter of who or what you are but the facts that you can present.

[mike15]

I agree too Dan, the only problem is most of the complaints are coming from a competitive agency.  Sounds like Mud slinging to me.  I have spoken to many dudes that are clients of TverRomance and met several on my trips.

But what do I know, I am just a customer.

[groovlstk]

I agree too Dan, the only problem is most of the complaints are coming from a competitive agency.  Sounds like Mud slinging to me.  I have spoken to many dudes that are clients of TverRomance and met several on my trips.

But what do I know, I am just a customer.

Mike, did you read this thread?

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1512.msg31535#msg31535

This event was never challenged, and it certainly looks like a scam to me.

What makes the whole thing even funnier is that another agency owner here attempted to repudiate, well sort of repudiate, Jack's account:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=1559.0

Amid all the praise for hard-working Natasha, there's no denial that she attempted to scam Jack's clients. I suppose this business is so ugly and corrupt that clients should accept a little dishonesty, as long as the owner works hard and the girls are real.

[Admin]

Couldn't agree more Dan, unfortunately it isn't that easy. Of all the guys I am aquainted with or know first hand that have been burned by this or that agency, 1 out of 25 might post about it or report it to a scam site. The others, just bury their head in their a$$ & try to forget it happened to them.
I have yet to see TR on a scam site, yet I can give you 10 guys that they scammed, 3 are members of this very board. That just goes to show you that most people just don't care & one of the reasons I gave up the fight. I can't make any miles swimmin' against the tide.
Then to top it off, I get pi$$ed only because I m an agency owner & I shouln't be permitted to say anythng about my competition. What difference does it make if it is the truth, & I can prove it should be the deciding factor. I agree that if I can't prove it I should keep my mouth shut, but I can & I have plenty of witnesses to coorborrate my statements, so what difference does it make that I am an owner??? It should not be a matter of who or what you are but the facts that you can present.

Richard,

You may be right - BUT.....

The fact that you are a competitor means that you will NEVER be able to escape the FACT that you have a vested interest. And that fact renders your opinion suspect, for some at least. I am not trying to say this is correct - it just *is*.

The other thing is - most of the time I find people who got 'burned' to be plenty vocal. It is usually the folks who get good value for their money - just as they thought they should - who are silent and never say anything.

I guess what I am saying is - it is human nature to complain when you feel you've suffered an injustice. It is less common for people to make much 'noise' when they got exactly what they thought they should receive - so 'normally-speaking' I would expect there to be a enormous outcry if an agency were consistently behaving/performing badly.

Once again - the Reviews is a great opportunity to capture ALL the inputs from customers who feel inclined to post their stories - and with enough posted information, the readers will be better able to make an informed decision.

- Dan

[Rvrwind]

I hear ya' Dan, but I know many of these guys will never post about it or complain as they are embarrassed about getting burned. They want to stay unnoticed. Some who have never posted here & never likely will and that is unfortunate.
It still urks me that just becuse I am an owner my word is automatically suspect. Facts are facts & if they can be proved it shouldn't matter one damn iota who said them. Course thats in my fantasy world I guess.
I don't have to slng mud. I am proud of what we have accomplished in the past few months, we are better, stronger & quite able to compete on a fair & honest playing field with any other agency here. Notice I said, Fair & Honest Playing field! I let my past record stand on its own merit. Nobody can ever say my company or I scammed them in any way shape or form & they certainly cannot say they didn't get a fair deal at our agency.
I just wish more of those who got scammed by others would speak out loud & clear, it might help to serve others.

[GREGK]

Dan- I did not notice the reviews section until you pointed it out. Thanks. There is very little there regarding agencies. I can't help but believe that comments/ experiences regarding suspect agencies would get more exposure (readers) here in the main forum. Sorry, I am a newbie here.

[catzenmouse]

I hear ya' Dan, but I know many of these guys will never post about it or complain as they are embarrassed about getting burned. They want to stay unnoticed. Some who have never posted here & never likely will and that is unfortunate.

Richard,

 If they want to they can contact me and I will be happy to post their comments so that they can remain anonymous if they wish. Yes, that would make it a third party report and as such it would be less valuable. And since this is an internet board and they do not have to give any information that would show who they are I really hope they would step up and have their say. This is not really about being embarrassed. We've all done plenty of stupid things. This IS all about getting the truth out there for those who don't know any better. So I say to you that have had ANY experience with this agency: Post it! You won't die, you won't be beaten, you won't even go on the RWD list of people who don't post their experiences. C'mon give it a try! You might just find out you will feel better for it.

 Ken

[jb]

Richard,

Because of the long history we, you and I, have on the boards I'd tend to agree with you most of the time, however because you are now an agency guy, you will be forever tainted when it comes to giving an opinion on another agency.

I'd recomend you let those who have been well served or badly burned have a voice in this, yea or nay, it's up to the consumer to set the tone, not the seller.

Know what I mean?

[Rvrwind]

That is what I have been trying to do. I have even agreed to work with the other agencies to a small degree to deflect some of the bad blood.
I know I have been quite vocal in the past but ll it has succeeded in doing is making Tver the front line in a war zone, that nobody wants to visit. This hurts everybody, the ladies especially who don't deserve to be caught in the middle.
I'll say it one more time, we are all working together, exept TR, in a small but positive way. I won't speak to any other agency processes beyond that cooperation. That is for you the consumer to decide, but whatever you decide, don't discount Tver because of the past differences between agencies. I can say no matter which gency you choose to use, no other one city, except maybe Moscow or SPB, can ffer you the oustanding choice & amount of women as we can, right here in Tver (to the best of my knowledge).
That is my final word on the matter.

[mike15]

For the first time I agree with Richard.  TVER is a cool place to visit.  Plenty of nice restaurants, nite clubs and shopping.  TVER University supplies an unlimited supply of pretty girls.  The city is run down, as I would image most of the country is.  There are several nice places to stay if you are willing to pay the price.  There are plenty of pretty girls.  Pick one of the agencies and make the trip.

[Rvrwind]

Thank you Mike...I might add that there has been a considerable amount of Reno going on. They have fixed most of the fountains & statues around town. They have fixed up a few of the parks & are whipping them back into shape. The Buisnesses & storefronts are all getting facelifts & a number of new buildings have been built. Trevetskya Stret is almost a complete remont with new red brick & pedestrians only, no cars. They are almost finished 3 blocks of it & it is lookig good, with new benches everwhere to sit & rest, penty of trash recepticals, outdoor resturants in the summer, new streetlamps & flower boxes etc.
They are doing the roads little by little but coming from Northern Canada I know that it is a never ending process. They are trying & have repaved many of the streets & fix pot holes. They will be at that for awhile yet.
I would venture to say that those that were here two, three years ago wouldn't believe the changes that have come about.
Tver is beautifying itself & its lookin' good. Like many places including my old one there are those things typical of a city. Alot of dust when it is dry, lots of graffitti, some people just have no respect. But overall Tver is an ecellent locatin to enjoy a pleasant holiday, with costs far less than Moscow prices & plenty of pretty ladies.

[Bruno]

The other thing is - most of the time I find people who got 'burned' to be plenty vocal. It is usually the folks who get good value for their money - just as they thought they should - who are silent and never say anything.

I guess what I am saying is - it is human nature to complain when you feel you've suffered an injustice. It is less common for people to make much 'noise' when they got exactly what they thought they should receive - so 'normally-speaking' I would expect there to be a enormous outcry if an agency were consistently behaving/performing badly.

And a other factor is that people who use forum like these are mainly people who have already know some problem in the foreign dating process... A lot of people use agency, find a bride, marry and you never find something about this on the internet...

Same if a agency "xxx" have 25 complain year on these forum... it is interesting to relate it to the yearly number of customer... if a agency have 100 customer year, 25% of complain is a lot... but if the agency have 10000 customer year, these 25 complain become only 0.25%... who is relatively low... i think that it is the main reason why big agency are named scam agency... a lot of customer, a few complain but people count how much complain without relate it to the number of customer...

[Bruce]

There are a number of issues here that I would enjoy getting the perspective of Natasha Deeva now that she joined this board. 

The charge is that Tver Rommance uses the practice of false letter writing (agency writes the letter claiming to be a woman on their website).  The source is two guys on this board 1) Maxx, who I believe and have come to respect through reading his travails over the years, as well as 2) Richard (rvwnd), who I have met, interacted with when he worked for BH as well as after.  Though Richard owns an agency in Tver, I believe him because I know enough about Richard to know that he has excellent character.  Richard is a cowboy at heart who calls a spade a spade the way he sees it.  Now, I may disagree with Richard's political views from time to time or some other peripheral issue, but when it comes to dating agencies in Tver, a Westerner living in Tver / Russia as well as most of the issues we discuss I trust his opinion empirically.  I do consider Richard to be a friend, as I consider Marc Dayton to be a friend.  I have also met Natasha Deeva on multiple occasions when I was a client of LTP in 2000 and have nothing bad in my experience to say about her.  She was an outstanding translator at the time, who was part of the later movement of a number of translators of LTP to form their own agency. 

Once LTP was the only real agency in Tver.  Over the years for a number of reasons they were not servicing the number of customers / recruiting as many new women / thriving as an agency.  A physician from Florida tried to help them get back on their feet.  Perhaps he helped them for a while, but things from at least my outside point of view continued to slide and he eventually sold out to the chief salesman (Marc) and another partner once a new agency named BH jumped into the neighborhood as well as alot of experienced translators from LTP splintering off to form their own agency, Tver Romance (TR), generally in the image of LTP.  There were allegations about stolen database etc. during that split, but it has been beat to death on other threads on this and other boards.  Time has marched forward since the event of the split. 

For whatever reasons, when BH came on the scene they appeared to be able to do what LTP was having trouble doing:  Recruit the type of girls guys are interested in meeting.  How did they do this?   Yaroslav really recruited hard and used other methods I am not sure of to recruit alot of girls.  I am not sure he was able to get guys to use his agency at first.  So, he had alot of girls waiting around.  At some time it appears that he mixed in profiles of non-existant beautiful / girls guys lust after into his website.  My theory is that besides gaining attention many guys wrote to these non-existant beautiful girls.  So, BH decided to take the next step and wrote letters for these girls to attract guys to his agency.  He knew that if guys showed up he'd have loads of other girls, perhaps not as beautiful as the eye candy "bait" girls, but pretty darn close in looks - and when one thing is a picture and a real attractive girl shows interest in a guy, the guy forgets about the bait that caused him to use the agency in the first place.  BH eventually figured out that they could generate more dollars with the false letter writing so it persisted.  They also teamed with Anastasia to tour guys through Tver.  Richard confirmed above that though BH engages in what I believe is dispicable business practices they still do have alot of real girls when a guy shows up to Tver. 

Has TR seen the success of BH and want to practice certain aspects of their despicable business model?  Is every girl on their website real?  Until proven otherwise I would suggest yes.  Are they writing letters for girls on their website?  Thats for Natasha to answer.

At some point Richard, who was working with BH, decided enough was enough and he could not be part of an operation that practiced unscrupulous business practices.  I suspect it was when BH decided to lure guys with "bait" and falsify letters.  So, Richard moved over to LTP.  After a certain period of time he had philisophical differences with LTP and decided to form his own agency, Tver Angels (TA). 

What is one left with today?  BH, who has some girls if you go to Tver, but a database with "bait", ghosts and perhaps some real girls;  LTP who I assume always has a real database with real girls; TR who I assume always has a real database with real girls; as well as Richard who I know has a real database with real girls.

So, if I were a guy I would throw out BH unless I went to Tver, walked into their office and found out which girls I could actually really meet and negotiate from there.
LTP provides full service, TA provides full service as well as TR provides full service.

From what I understand all the Tver agencies except for TR (Natasha or someone correct me if I am wrong on this point) will accept walk-ins inquiring about their girls, as well as contact information etc. for a particular fee.  Perhaps TR will do this as well but for a higher fee??? 

People who bring guys to Tver in search of brides, make dollars every step of the way except for the recruiting of girls and expect to use the agencies in town to supply contact information naturally would be upset if the people they sponsor can not buy contact information when they come to town. These agents will be upset when a particular agency feels $25, $50 or whatever number is not fair to any particular agency who do the leg work to recruit a girl as well as the screening of a girl, advertising ie. website for this girl etc. 

What is the bottom line for the agencies from the single guys point of view - its the GIRLS stupid, plain and simple.  Guys searching want to write (or not write if they are like I learned to be when I was in the "search" phase), go to Tver, stay in a safe place and meet as well as interact with girls who may want to marry a guy from the West.  The point of the agency is to screen quality girls who guys want to meet, advertise girls and guys to each other, facilitate letter writing etc. as well as make it as easy as possible for the couple to actually meet when the guy shows up in town through translation / guiding etc.  Ideally, the agency helps the girl learn English if needed as well as facilitate paperwork necessary for a guy to do a K-1 or K-3 visa.

Tver has alot of quality girl / beautiful single girls etc.  More are in the city than on the websites.  Why?  The agencies have a problem recruiting the kind of girls guys want to meet.  So, I understand why an agency will want to safe guard its database.  Perhaps Natasha can speak to this point. 

If I was a single guy today, I'd look at the three agencies database, call them up and then book a trip with the agency that has the most girls I would want to meet after sending out a letter of introduction / seeing response to real girls.  If things do not work out with the girls when said guy would get to Tver I am sure all agencies can facilitate the better places for a guy to travel to / bars to meet single girls in Tver with or without the help of a translator / guide. 

So, its the girls and the ability to get real girls on your website which is the bottom line for you agencies in Tver.  Thats the bottom line for guys in the West.  Good luck in your endeavors / interactions amongst yourselves. 

[GREGK]

Bruce- Congrats on a well-written informative post. My only comment would be that if an agency resorts to writing phony letters I am not going to trust them to act in my best interests regarding any of the services they offer once I get there!

[KenC]

Bruce- Congrats on a well-written informative post. My only comment would be that if an agency resorts to writing phony letters I am not going to trust them to act in my best interests regarding any of the services they offer once I get there!

Greg,
I think Bruce's point is to use the agencies (that are known to write phoney letters) only for introductions to women while you are there.  There isn't too much trust necessary for that.  Either the woman is there or not.
KenC

[Rvrwind]

So, its the girls and the ability to get real girls on your website which is the bottom line for you agencies in Tver.

Well written Bruce. My only comment would be to this sentance. This was to me the thing that got me talking to the othe agencies to form a cooperation of sorts. The original idea was thought up way back when I was at BH & Yaroslav & I proposed the idea to Marc Dayton who at the time declined to go forward with it. TR t that time had just recently split from LTP & only had about a dozen ladies on the site so we didn't even propose it to them at that time.
Scoot ahead & in the interm, TR has managed to increase their number of ladies signifacantly & we are still working at ours. In fact many of these ladies are on multiple sites, there seems to be many that are on BH & TR & plenty from both at LTP.
When I decided to talk to the others to make some kind of working agreement where guys from any agency could walk into any other agency & see the ladies the first one to come on board was BH. Actually they have always accepted walk-ins from other agencies so when I actually talked to Yaroslav (about another matter actually, but this one came up) we greed to accept each others clients. I talked to Marc about it a couple of times but made no headway until Dennis stepped in & wa smart enough to see the light & LTP agreed to do the same. TR I could not convince them that it was in their best interests in the long run.
Sooner or later most of these ladies will be on multiple websites including mine. Then that only leaves the sevices provided & the prices thereof to attract clients. So by allowing walkin's from other agencies is only prudent if you want to serve your clients well, otherwise the others will & you will be left without.

[Maxx2]

I noticed another thing about TR. On their website for paying members their clients can download videos of the ladies. Almost in every video the interpreter says this "I know you are very busy and have very little spare time. So what would you do if you had more spare time?" Then the women would usually say she would spend more time with her son or daughter. I would watch 20 videos with about 18 of them having this happen. Then I get a statements in a letters such as,   
Quote:
"Maxx, I will finish here and hope you don't get offended that I can't reply to your letters right away."

Are the women in Tver so busy that they barely have time to write? Or does this have something to do that with monthly membership the letters are translated at no additional cost?

Also 3 month membership is cheaper than month to month for three months. But the letters are few from all these busy gals until a week or two before the membership is about to run out.   

Again I got 2 letters on the same day supposedly from the same lady. One through Richard who I had privately had set up with him when I got this woman's address from Ronin over at the other board (he and his wife knew her cousin living in California) and the other through TR. The TR letter was not real as it contradicted the new facts of this woman's life that she stated in her letter I got from her on the same day via Richard. Someone was being creative and it wasn't Richard.

Maxx     

[Maxx2]

Hey RWD members.

Try and read between the lines in my above post.  If it's a Russian owned and operated marriage agency you're going to get fleeced. Even guys who had success probably got fleeced with this and that and never even knew it.

Maxx

[Admin]

Hey RWD members.

Try and read between the lines in my above post.  If it's a Russian owned and operated marriage agency you're going to get fleeced. Even guys who had success probably got fleeced with this and that and never even knew it.

Maxx

Maxx,

An alternative is that you can spell it out rather then expect people to interpret something you didn't state.

Maybe it's just me - but I tend to think if you have something you want others to understand, you should just come out and state it.

- Dan

[Maxx2]

If people figure things out on their own it might sink in. However I noticed an inability of many to find the lessons in the facts presented. Probably because they skim read the posts with their minds all ready made up.

Maxx

[jb]

Maybe it's just me - but I tend to think if you have something you want others to understand, you should just come out and state it.

I've always thought so too, however I'm often castigated for doing so. 

[jb]

I think we can certainly see the motivation for an agency to continue these phony letter writting schemes for as long as possible.  In another thread, Gator describes the Cindy agency, in that case he mentions 2-4 translators working on letters for real women.  I don't know what the thru-put, per hour, per translator is, but I can imagine it would be higher if there really were no real women clients to worry about.  Just churning out love letters 8 hours a day to lonely men might be extrodinarily profitable if, as Gator says, the translator only get $.80 per letter.  After all, what's the harm?  If 90% of the letter writers never make the trip then we have to assume there are litterally thousands of scamees out there who never got a clue.   I suspect those agencies which do this as a regular sideline to the usual meetings which take place in the office are pretty adept at figuring out who will make the trip and who won't. 

The bottom line is, regardless of the profit, it's still dishonest for an agency to pursue this line of business.