Using a guide in Ukraine? Be careful!

[2tallbill]

Hey, I like Pavel, I never had a problem with him. I have found him to be honest and decently priced. I have had customers unhappy with me before but I keep trying to do my best. I think Pavel does the same.

Just my two kopecks,

Bill

[Turboguy]

My experiences with Pavel are pretty limited.   I had planned to make a trip to Ukraine in June and after hearing glowing reports from many members planned to use Pavel for an apartment, transfer and arranging some plane tickets that I seemed to have trouble doing here.  I had to cancel my trip do to an illness but Pavel managed to get me some refunds on the deposits that I had paid and all of my dealings with him were excellent.  He was always helpful, fast in responding and did everything I asked.

I have a lot of respect for both Kuna and Jack and perhaps some of it was misunderstanding or perhaps he is slipping a bit and needs to rethink his strategy.   For me I can say is my experiences were good.

[Son of Clyde]

I have used Pavel's help three times and have never had a bad experience. Quite the contrary, he would stop by and visit us at least once or twice a day. He always had a good flat for us and the transportation prices were reasonable. He never gave a detailed assessment of his services and I don't think he ever took advantage of me. Pavel and I still communicate. He has called me at home and I know it ain't a cheap phone call for him. He has offered his help on more than one occasion, just to try to give me another perspective of life with a Ukrainian woman. I told him one time I was interested in buying some Ukrainian music and he sent me a cd of some very good music. He is a very thoughtful guy and I recommend him to all my friends. Pavel is a friend who is also a businessman. He does not work for free. Some services may seem a bit high, but if I booked everything on my own I would be losing a ton of money. In London I spent $75.00 for a taxi from the airport to my hotel. In Kiev it was never over $20.00, and the distances are about the same.

[Kuna]

I have used Pavel's help three times and have never had a bad experience. Quite the contrary, he would stop by and visit us at least once or twice a day. He always had a good flat for us and the transportation prices were reasonable. He never gave a detailed assessment of his services and I don't think he ever took advantage of me. Pavel and I still communicate. He has called me at home and I know it ain't a cheap phone call for him. He has offered his help on more than one occasion, just to try to give me another perspective of life with a Ukrainian woman. I told him one time I was interested in buying some Ukrainian music and he sent me a cd of some very good music. He is a very thoughtful guy and I recommend him to all my friends. Pavel is a friend who is also a businessman. He does not work for free. Some services may seem a bit high, but if I booked everything on my own I would be losing a ton of money. In London I spent $75.00 for a taxi from the airport to my hotel. In Kiev it was never over $20.00, and the distances are about the same.

SoC,

I hear, respect and believe everything you said.  I wish my experience was the same though.  Mine was $40 on the way in and the quote for the Dnepr transfer was $40 (200UAH).  I flagged down a taxi for the trip to the airport on the day of my return to Oz and paid 120UAH ($24).

As I've said.. I know many have had good experiences but my own weren't great.  

I know there's good things about Pavel but the message of my original post is for everyone to go in with eyes open.  If guides promise "best price" you may not get "best price", EVEN if you pay a service fee to assure this.

Kuna

[Kuna]

William, ok I took you off ignore to read another one of your ridiculous posts, and your praise for your buddy Jack (he must bring you some good business) why do constantly jump in on a thread and say one or two lines that don't relate to the topic, and it's usually something negative and it was like a chore for you to write it, like why do you waste your time with fools like us.

 Jack attacked Stirlitz here in this thread, it wasn't the other way around. As far as trolling, I don't know what it is, but I do know you and Jack hang around here to drum up business for yourselves, plain and simple.

 Stick to topics regarding immigration law, it's what you do best. Speaking of "padding services" isn't that what lawyers do best?

Who's attacking who?

Ya know... I'm amazed that I've posted my experiences and tried to be fair (by saying a number of times that it wasn't all bad) but some people have come out on the attack.

I think the best way to respond is as some have done, and to simply re-inforce their own good experiences with the individual involved, and then future newbies can read and make up their own mind.

As for William giving an opinion... aren't we all giving opinions?  We all have motivations for our opinions!

This has nothing to do with Jinx versus William or Jack versus Igor.  I had a "new member" PMing me threatening a "Jinx/Jack type war" and I knew this topic would be emotive, but I still thought that it was valid for discussion and should be on the records for future newbies to get a broader perspective.

For those that have had good experiences, I'm happy for you.

For me?  I learnt some things and I think posting my experience here just lets new travelers see what can happen.. no matter which guide you use.

I don't think Pavel is a bad guide.. but he didn't deliver on his promises to me.  There are other things I didn't post because I didn't want to make the thread too sathing but here's one to get you thinking!

Can ANYBODY convince me a $400 private car ride to Dnepr is better value than a $100 plane ride?

No?  I didn't think so!

Oh, by the way, while delayed at the airport I found out the $400 ride I was quoted is available from a stranger at the airport for $300.

I was pushed pretty hard on the car ride but just couldn't see value when I know I can fly to New Zealand and back for $400.

Thankfully mir raised the option of the plane and saved me bundles!  I just thought my guide would do that for me.

I'd rather this thread stay on topic of "Guides, promises, value and advice" but if it has to turn into a slanging match then so-be-it!

Kuna

[Son of Clyde]

Something to ponder.
If you look at the rising real estate costs in Kiev, maybe some prices needed to be increased.
If you do not like Pavel's matter of fact style (I did not mind it at all) than you have the option to choose whomever you please.
When I visit Kiev, I will call Pavel.
I do not think Pavel would mind giving a detailed bill in advance if asked. I think Kuna's experience was not knowing what to expect.
Pavel is energetic but also very laid back. You can also choose an agressive guide if you wish.

[Michelangelo]

Can ANYBODY convince me a $400 private car ride to Dnepr is better value than a $100 plane ride?

No?  I didn't think so!

Actually, YES!  I can.  Because you are slipping on your time sequence and facts...

But I remember your problem in getting to Dnepr,  and how lots of posters here helped you after you posted on Feb 7th:

I’d like to go to Dnepropetrovsk but I checked the airfares and they are expensive because there is basically only business class seats left.  I could take the train, but I don’t know… maybe I’d be better off staying in Kiev and having some quiet time to myself.

That's when the airfare was $500 and a private car was cheaper.

Mir gave you some info that allowed you to get a cheaper airline ticket to Dnerpr.  But at the time you were searching for private cars and bus and train, you only had a business class airline seat open for you.

So please don't ask such silly questions.  Fair is fair, and so your question above was very unfair and misleading.

[Admin]

Stirlitz is correct. Let's get this back on track.

Note to self (and others) - stay calm and rational and discuss the issue with FACTS, not emotions.

Kuna is free to post his experiences. Others are free to challenge and post their own experiences.

Fair *is* fair.

From the discourse, readers may draw their own conclusions.

Sorry for my emotional response. It was a tough day yesterday (and today).

- Dan

[Kuna]

Can anyone convince me that once you agreed to pay $400 for this ride without being forced or having no other choice, you can call it a rip-off?

Igor,

You have one twisted mind if your arguments you're posting here are all you've got.  It continues to be a great warning for newbies on how they should interact with guides... and now I would firmly place you in the group that would need to be considered very closely before engagement!

Let     me     speak     very     slowly... and     be     really     clear.  

If you lose your place let me know OK?  I'll go over it again.

Before my trip I paid a fee which was explained as a fee to make sure I don't get ripped off. I was told it was a fee to make sure I get "the best prices".  

I wasn't expecting the fee but it was small and I thought very fair.  Who wouldn't want protection from being ripped off?  It's a foreign country, I'd never been there before and I needed someone on the ground to give me good advice.

OK, you're still with me Igor???  Good...

The PROMISE didn't meet the service IN MY CASE.  As you can see from the replies many others are happy and therefore they'll become his bread and butter.  I am not happy but only because I was expecting something that was significantly different from what was delivered.

Now.. let me address your post very carefully...

You seem to think that bad advice (even when offered by someone who was operating under the guise of "protecting me" and "giving me good advice") is OK, as long as I accept it.

I didn't accept the suggestion of a car from Kiev to Dnepr for $400 because THANKFULLY a member in here gave me genuine good advice.

If a guide is supposed to be acting in the best interests of his client, how could he recommend a service that was $400 instead of $100?  By the way, air tickets are available for as little as $68... I got in slow so happily paid $98.

I'll tell you how he can give such advice.  Because the trip was quoted by a stranger at the airport for $300 and there was a $100 incentive for him to get me to use the private car, and no incentive for me to choose the plane.

I chose the plane, and then when talking to him about a car to the airport he told me a cab would be at least 200UAH (but probably more for me because I'm a foreigner).  

How much would he charge me?  200UAH.

I knew this wasn't true because I'd already tested the facts and I knew I could get it for 120-150UAH.

I am trying to be fair and NOT call it a rip-off.  I'm calling it bad advice.  If you introduce the phrase rip-off I can only respond by saying THIS situation wasn't a rip-off...  but it was indeed an attempted rip-off!

Kuna

[Stirlitz]

Well, it was you who introduced this phrase, rip-off, in this thread from the very first message.

OK, bad advice…

But I did lose my place. Let’s finish with the $80/140 issue before we address $400. So, did you find the e-mail from Pavel quoting $80?

[Kuna]

Actually, YES!  I can.  Because you are slipping on your time sequence and facts...

But I remember your problem in getting to Dnepr,  and how lots of posters here helped you after you posted on Feb 7th:

That's when the airfare was $500 and a private car was cheaper.

Mir gave you some info that allowed you to get a cheaper airline ticket to Dnerpr.  But at the time you were searching for private cars and bus and train, you only had a business class airline seat open for you.

So please don't ask such silly questions.  Fair is fair, and so your question above was very unfair and misleading.

Michelangelo,

Sorry for disagreeing with you because you know I regard you very highly.  I know you've had good experiences with Pavel so I understand your support of him.

I didn't have as good an experience though.

I'm not slipping on my "time sequence and facts..." as you've assumed. When you're looking at time lines etc you might not be taking into account time zones.

It was the morning of Wednesday the 7th in Kiev when I spoke to Pavel about going to Dnepr and got the $400 quote for the car.  I couldn't believe that was the best option so I sought advice on here and heard about the plane option.  I couldn't get a good price on the Thursday (8th) when I would have preferred to go, but did get a good price for the air ticket on Friday. I didn't know how much the plane tickets were when I asked Pavel for advice on the trip.

I paid the extra night to stay in Kiev, and the airport transfer and still came out a mile ahead.

I could go back to my posts in here AND my handwritten trip diary because I wrote in it every day.  I carried it with me like a pocketsized confidant as I do on all of my extended vacations because it makes for wonderful reading in years ahead.  

Pavel's advice on the trip to Dnepr was financially motivated... and the cheaper quote at the airport proves it.  It's OK.. Stirlitz says it's not a rip off because if someone agrees to it.  I was lucky that I had the support of RWD members and wasn't in the wilderness relying on the support of a guide. I thought that was the point of a guide though!

It's clear that the service didn't meet my expectations.  Maybe that's my fault but when I am promised a certain service for a certain fee... and then I find out I'm not getting that service, I get cranky.

When I raise it with him and get nonsensical arguments, I get more cranky!

Maybe I took the advice in here not to go throwing money around in Ukraine too seriously, but when I reflect on some of the differentials I can't help but think I didn't get the service one might expect.

Kuna

[Stirlitz]

Stirlitz says it's not a rip off because if someone agrees to it.

Let me make an important correction. I did not say that. What I said was a rip-off is when someone takes advantage of you having no choice.

If I am in a great hurry and a cab driver I hail realizes it and sees there are no other cabs around (e.g., at night) and offers a double rate, it is a rip-off. But when you have other options and still chose to accept that offer, it is not.

It does not matter if you were too lazy to explore other options or were not aware of them. You can always ask people, and that is what you did in this case.

So I would not call it rip-off either. Just an unreasonable offer, or bad advice as you put it.

[Michelangelo]

It was the morning of Wednesday the 7th in Kiev when I spoke to Pavel about going to Dnepr and got the $400 quote for the car.  I couldn't believe that was the best option so I sought advice on here and heard about the plane option.  I couldn't get a good price on the Thursday (8th) when I would have preferred to go, but did get a good price for the air ticket on Friday. I didn't know how much the plane tickets were when I asked Pavel for advice on the trip.

Kuna, that is the reason i posted. I do know.  For I was following your very excellent trip report, and wishing you well.

When you posted your cry for help on the 7th at 1:23 p.m. RWD eastern coast time, I read it and checked a European site that Bruno had shared with readers of RWD. The best price I could find was 400 euro; business class.  That is why i agreed that the train was your best option.  Yes, if you take away the 9 hour time difference and compare apples to apples, you had the choice at that time between a train (less expensive) a private car (more convenient), or a flight for 400 euro (your best choice but the most expensive). But the comparison was not between a $400 private car and a cheap plane ticket.  It was between a $400 private car and a 400 euro plane fare.

But let's agree not to continue this argument.  It's better to look at the big picture.  You were genuinely dissatisfied with your guides services.  Most other posters here like him a  lot and are coming to his defense.  Your thread does turn the light from green to yellow on Pavel.  And that's good. Informed consumers will be more happy because of knowledge and the power they have to decide whom they want to work with. Your thread will help to bring the issues they should consider to light.

[2tallbill]

Kuna, I think you are a good guy. I loved your trip report. I had a good experience with Pavel and you didnt. It does not mean that you are good or bad or that Pavel is good or bad. It means that you didnt have a good experience with him. I like Pavel and if we met I am sure that I would like you.

I wish you good luck in everything you do.

Take care man,

Bill

[2tallbill]

Michelangelo, I made my response before I read yours. You made an excellent point and my response was possibly redundant.


Kuna, I hope that everything works out for you in every way. I respect you.
Take care,

Bill

[Mir]

Well one thing that does not hold water is that gasoline prices have actually gone down c/w 6 months ago.
Also I do not agree with you that by personally negotiating with taxi drivers he would have paid more.I have done that many many times and have paid much lower prices then he has quoted.
My tip:
NEVER USE A GUIDE FOR SAVING MONEY
To me the purpose of the guide is to show you the place.Like tell you about various historical buildings,about museums etc.

[Mir]

Kuna

The apartment prices are reasonable but you could have got the same by booking online.
Also as you now know the agency that you rented apartment from would have arranged your visa invitation letter free of charge (if you paid one night deposit in advance),arranged airport pick up etc.
I don't want to sound critical but I am a little surprised that you did not know these issues before.I mean you claim that you have travelled extensively before yet you did not know that the cell phones need to be unlocked to accept a new sim card (you can get them unlocked in Kiev).
And I think that every traveller know that hiring a guide does not save money but costs extra as the guide needs to be paid for..... being a guide.

[Mir]

Son of Clyde wrote:

In London I spent $75.00 for a taxi from the airport to my hotel. In Kiev it was never over $20.00, and the distances are about the same.

On a recent trip to Dubai I paid $5 to travel the above distance.What does that tell you? Simply that you cannot compare taxi prices on a mile by mile basis between different cities.
In many case what is reasonable is not hard to find.I have never paid more then $25 from Borispol to the centre.So this price is reasonable to me.If someone pays $40 to me he has been ripped off.On the other hand you might have paid $40 for the same and to you $40 would seem reasonable.It is all relative.
However with the availability of this board and other on line resources people can get info before the set off.

[Turboguy]

I think I have paid a range of from $ 25.00 to $ 75.00.   Most often I have paid around $ 40.00

[Mir]

TB

So you see $40 will sound reasonable to you unless you met someone who told you that they always pay $25

[El Rock]

NEVER USE A GUIDE FOR SAVING MONEY
To me the purpose of the guide is to show you the place.Like tell you about various historical buildings,about museums etc.

"Guide " is a generic term  for  any kind of help  while in other conntries .
Someone to guide you  to the right motel  , guides you through  " hassling with a taxi  drivers's   fee.
General   guidence  .
Guides DO save you money and time and a host of other stuff .

[El Rock]

The taxis   tried to charge  me 300 of their money , but I was with Val , they charged us 2 , 150 , I can't spell  their money , I know it don't start with "g" but an "h" .
Sorry for the poor post

[El Rock]

You must be bored , to write all this

Well as I have read it I can see that this is basically misunderstanding plus wrong expectations. Kuna, you sound as if your whole trip went wrong and Pavel just happened to be your scapegoat. Most of the things you say just don’t add up.

Did Pavel guarantee it would be accepted?

Was it poorly written?

Is anyone out there who can guarantee you anything about consulates and embassies (except for people who work there)?! Why do we often read contradictory stories about a woman being rejected a visa despite having a nice job, an apartment, previous visas and then, all of a sudden, they approve a visa for a jobless blonde named Natasha? Where is the logic?

A tip for guides’ clients: always tell your guide what you want them to do and where you want them to go. If you are the boss, please rule. Guides are not supposed to make decisions for you. If you do not say anything they might be forced to do something but the responsibility is yours.

Can you copy and paste the e-mail from Pavel, including its full headers, where he quotes $80 for this trip? I also ask for full headers because the date is important. If this quote was given more than six months ago, you should be aware that gasoline prices have increased since then. And not only gasoline. Property, electricity, other services, everything. At any rate, a quote given a long time ago is not a solid argument. Besides, I am somehow sure that Pavel did not quote it to you. First of all, I know him and it is not typical of him and if he says he did not quote $80 chances are he didn’t. Second, let’s just see. $80 makes 40 cents a kilometer (it is 200 km between Kiev and Cherkasy, I drove this way). But this rate is not typical for Kiev today. Most taxi drivers charge at least 50 cents, usually 60, sometimes 70, and I am not talking about real rip-off at the airport where they can easily quote you $140 just to get to the downtown of Kiev, I mean normal drivers who would charge you as much as me however hard I bargain. I mean there can be drivers who charge 70 cents and it is still within the limits. There is also drivers who charge much more or much less but rare. 60±10 to sum up. So I am more than sure that he could not quote $80, at least within half a year from now back. Anyway, what you claim is baseless and Pavel denies it; so, given the actual rates, I have more reason to trust him, unless you have other convincing proofs. The only possibility I see is a mistake or misunderstanding but it happens. Anyway, it was corrected, and you were given the right quote before you went to Ukraine, so even then it is OK in my view. Prices change here daily. $80 is just too good to be true and no wonder it was not the right figure.

Was it really the problem? Is Pavel or anyone else in the world supposed to help you and make arrrangements for you for free? Please give reasons as to why. I don’t see any right now. If you think that by paying Pavel for other services you made him obliged to you, I do not find it convincing.

If Pavel did add $20 to $120, that is quite OK in my view. At $0.60 a km it is a normal taxi rate, and $20 is not too much money for a service. Actually, I feel sorry for people who make Pavel to hide his quite justifiable fees, if it is really the case. But it has to be proven yet (see below).

What surprises me is how many people want free stuff and are genuinely surprised when rejected either directly or by being charged more for something else.

However, the bottom line is if you accepted Pavel’s services and decided to pay for them, and he delivered what he had promised (in this case it is the cab ride), what are you unhappy about? Nobody forced you to accept it, so what’s the use of whining. You could have gone out in the street, wave your hand and say CHERKASSY. (I bet you would be charged much more than $140 though). But if you decided to use Pavel on your free will, what is the problem now? I just see no justification in lambasting him now. A definition of rip-off is when you have no choice and someone takes advantage of the situation charging you much more than they would in other situation. Pavel is not the only person in the world who could arrange a taxi for you. It was your choice to ask him and accept his conditions. So I am sorry but given the above, to me you sound like a cheapskate who is sorry about missed opportunities to save a few bucks. It does not add you honor. A deal is a deal, and once you accepted it on your free will, no use to cry wolf later. Be the man.

This is a quote from another thread. It is now clear why you chose Pavel — to save $60. So, why not be happy about that? And if he quoted you much less than another guide, what made you think he added his cut to it?

I am sorry but it is simply stupid. What do you mean by booking? Just saying you would probably take it some time later, so please keep it for me? Sorry but this does not work this way. If you want an apartment booked for you, you simply PAY for the days when you want to have it. Don’t you think that the landlords want to make some income? Why should they keep the apartment for you without any guarantee that you will use it? A guarantee can be your payment. I quite support this attitude because I have too often been through situations when somebody says they will use a service but then disappears. Even if this apartment belonged to Pavel I would not blame him if he had rented it while you were away. But how do you expect him to control the landlord who rightfully wants to make hard cash now?

Why didn’t you simply pay for all the time? If you went to another city for a day or two it would be a perfect option. By the way it would also be helpful to have a secure storage for your things. Pavel arranged for your luggage to stay in Kiev but what would you say if it had been stolen? Right, you would blame him. But why should he have this responsibility?

And when you call ten minutes before arriving to Kiev and want the same apartment, it is just laughable. Do you do the same wherever you travel? As far as I am concerned, people who travel to a strange town book a hotel or apartment there in advance, usually by paying for it. You can skip this part but you may have a lot of trouble when all rooms are taken. What made you think this should be different this time is a mystery.

Again, I am surprised that a general perception of a Ukrainian guide is someone with lots of free time and nothing to do who just enjoys your company. I am sure that Pavel gave you a link to his web site www.yourukraineguide.com.ua and you must have read it and noted his hourly rate of $15. If you didn’t, I am lost for words. Do your homework!

Good idea. But why do you blame Pavel for basically your faults?

My tips:

• Don’t expect anyone to do anything for you for free. Be prepared to pay for people’s time and attention. Friends who can help you for free must have known you for ages.
• Don’t hold people responsible for things out of their control (e.g. consulates, other people).
• Make sure you know the fees and conditions of the person who is working for you.
• If you feel something is too expensive, just look elsewhere.
• Don’t be too cheap. If you can afford it, just enjoy it. Don’t spoil a wonderful experience by watching every penny. You may miss more important and beautiful things.
• Book everything you want in advance by paying for it.
• I remind, IN ADVANCE. At least several days. Better weeks.
• I remind, BY PAYING. Best if for everything if you are sure you will need it.
• Be specific about your needs. Don’t expect the other person to read your mind. Don’t ask them where we are going. Tell them where you are going.

Of course, you may skip these tips but you are going to have problems and misunderstandings.

In his place I would never work for you again either. In fact, I never will in my place too. But I think that after reading this thread reasonable people will make their own decision. Of course, for dollar-savvy people who admire free stuff, Pavel is a bad choice simply because he lives in an expensive city and pays huge bills, and he does not have rich parents to cover him, so he cannot afford to do free stuff.

Whatever you do, there will always be somebody unhappy about it or you, so it is expectable. (Bold is mine).

Now, as I foresee future debates. To anybody who is going to claim I am simply supporting Pavel because I am a guide and his is my colleague. Can you point out which of the above does not hold water? What is wrong with my arguments?

I always promise I will try to save my client’s money. And I do my best. I don’t charge low but I am open about my fees and when I am with my client I always think if I can save for him. For example, when I meet people at the airport and they did not order a car, I usually walk away from the crowd of cab drivers and suggest a bus. But I never guarantee more than I can do.

But one thing I know for sure. There are people who will always be unhappy about something, and will always say that everything is too expensive and a rip-off however cheap or expensive it actually is.

[Mir]

Kuna wrote:

Thankfully mir raised the option of the plane and saved me bundles!  I just thought my guide would do that for me.


So that make two people who owe me a few beers (other is Makkin who has already made the offer).

Actually I do remember posting here before you set off on you trip about your travel arrangements and the purpose was to offer some advise but you missed(or ignored) the post.
But anyway you did not lose large amounts of money so......

El Rock

Yes your definition is correct but IMHO a guide can do everything for you except to save money when you total the tab at the end.

[jinx13]

the cell phones need to be unlocked to accept a new sim card (you can get them unlocked in Kiev).

 I found out about the cell phone lock thing my first time in Kiev, I was speaking with a SIM card salesman, he told me I needed to go to another place to unlock it. Now this was my first few hours in the city, I had no idea where this guy was telling me to go...a nice young girl, and her friend ,a young gay guy ( I have gaydar from living in San Francisco) decided to help me find the place, they were very nice and waited for me to see if it worked, it did. I insisted on paying them for help, but they refused, I will never forget those two.

 I managed without a guide and depended on the kindness of strangers, maybe I just got lucky but I met some of the nicest people in my life in Ukraine, probably why I get upset when Russians sometimes say bad things about Ukrainians, but thats another topic.

 Kuna, I think you are like me, you don't like things out of your control, don't like to be led like a puppy, it's frustrating having to rely on other people to get things done for you. I think your experience says less about Pavel, and more about you, you are not the type that needs a guide, unless it's to show you the history of the city as Mir suggested, I agree with that completely. Nothing against Pavel or Igor or any other guide, they just aren't for everybody.
 
 You felt you didn't get the proper value from your guide, I understand that, hopefully, like you, Pavel learned from the experience too. Next time be a little more open about your plans beforehand, we can help you, and don't forget about those kind strangers