Different perceptions of RW and UW

[Kuna]

In another thread Chelchov made an interesting post (below) on his perceptions of Russian Women and Ukrainian Women.

I'd be very interested in others opinions on it.

My girl has a Ukrainian Mother and Russian Father.  She was born in Ukraine but considers herself to be very much RUSSIAN. I know that this isn't uncommon (especially as she is from Central/Eastern Ukraine) but I'm also interested in impressions of that character difference.

By the way...  my girl is quite shy at first and has a very sweet personality.  She has proved so far to be very giving and seems to think a lot about other's happiness.  At the same time she has some very definite ideas and is certainly no shrinking violet.

I like the external tenderness and the internal strength and to me it was one of her very attractive traits.

Anyway, here's Chelchov's post... I'd be interested in others opinions...

Since you are asking for opinion on Ukrainian women...  Here's mine...

Ukrainian women, unlike Russian once, are known for being tough and even controlling. There are folkloric paintings of a Ukrainian woman running after the husband with a rolling pin.  They can be strong in a womanly, motherly, wifely, girlfriendly ways. No matter what they do and how they do it, everything just becomes an expression of very strong femininity.

The women are not controlling for wrong or psychotic reasons unlike American women. They get mad and boss men around when there is a reason for those things and not an unfair one. So, men improve and they make up. The thing is Ukraine is a Cossack country whereas most of Russia was serf country. Men in Russia are not much into working hard, but more into entertainment and drinking/partying. In Ukraine,however, work would bring its rewards because one did not have the lord to work for in the old times- it was mainly individual farms not the lord's estate. So guys drink less, work and study more.  When they screw up, women chew them out and then, they both move on.

Also, Russia and Ukraine are very different to the point that if you live in Russia for a while, it is very hard to fit in back in Ukraine.  That's what my Ukrainian/Russian friend told me.   

IMO, Russia is much better for girls, by all counts.  However, Ukraine does not require a visa for you to go to. You can go to East Ukraine where most people are ethnically Russian and you can do what you would do in Russia- be in demand.  Go for Russian girls. 

In the west Ukraine, people at there are very Germanic in character 
In the South Ukraine, people at there are kind of like Greek/Turkish-mediterranean
In the East Ukraine - people at there are basically Russian.

[Chelchov]

I'd like to add one thing...  If you listen to music from both Ukraine and Russia a lot, you could see some obvious pattern in Ukrainian and Russian music when it comes to who's courting whom.

in Ukraine, there are lots of songs with a man courting a woman.   

Whereas... in Russia, it is always a song of a woman whining for a man who had left her.  It's just that according to RW, men are just so hard to find.

Obviously, in Ukraine there are lots of guys so one has competition. In Russia such pretty girls are dime a dozen and not many men to compete for those...

[Kuna]

Chelchov,

Another interesting post about the music...

I've often seen the comments about more men than women in Russia and I've wondering if this was true or just an "Urban Myth".  I did see some reports a few years ago (I think it was in New Scientist Magazine - NO, I'm not a geek... I read it for the articles  ) that commented on the effects of pollution on the ratio of female to male births in Russia.

I couldn't find the article but I found others that seem to be based on the same data.

http://www.protectingourhealth.org/newscience/infertility/2002/2002-10ryanetal.htm

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-95527040.html

This is enough to explain the "man shortage" in one region but I wonder about the rest of Russia???

[I/O]

Obviously, in Ukraine there are lots of guys so one has competition. In Russia such pretty girls are dime a dozen and not many men to compete for those...

I have read this guys posts with some interest as I think he makes a good deal of sense with much of what he has to say about language and other practical matters, but this is bullsh!t.

Any freshman who thinks he is going to rock into Russia for a simple "Turkey shoot" is in for one helluva shock.  The other matter I would challenge from a western perspective is that if you think a Russian lady is going to bow and scrape or thank you just because you came to Russia, man o life you are in for a big wakeup. 

Try crossing swords with a Siberian woman when she is on her metal and you'll get as good as you can give and then some.  Others can speak with more authority regarding Muscovites, but I suspect from the ones I know, they ain't no pushovers either.

Frankly in my experience, (Which I admit is limited in Ukraine) I found the Ukrainian girls a good deal softer than many Russians.  I actually prefer someone who will go toe to toe with me and get something sorted rather than leaving it for another day.  Oh man can one Siberian lady stand and go it to the death if need be... and she ain't the only one I've met who can well and truely stick up for herself.

I/O

[Rvrwind]

Kuna wrote:

By the way...  my girl is quite shy at first and has a very sweet personality.  She has proved so far to be very giving and seems to think a lot about other's happiness.  At the same time she has some very definite ideas and is certainly no shrinking violet.

Wow, sounds like you are describing my wife! She was born in Kazacstan however & both parents are Russian, bur her personality is asou dscribe here.
As far as the ratio of men to women, this has been hashed over many times. There have been posted many articles with so called facts & figures. If you want the opinion of a guy who has lived here for four years & has seen first hand & can give you an overall view I am quite willing to share my thoughts. However, if you wish to rely on scientific poles or whatever I think persnally that the information is skewd.
I in reality would agree that here are more women than men, but if I was to break that down into marriagable attractive women I would have to go the other way. If you include the entire female population from toddler to Babushka, yes there are more females than males, there are in every country in the world as females seem to be born more often than males, it is the nessessity of the species.
However if you break down the demographics that changes drastcally with age & attractiveness to the opposite sex. Often you hear stories of 4-1 or 7-1, sure if you count in all those toddlers & babushka's. Its a marketing ploy by some unscrupulous agencies, don't buy into that garbage.
Walking amoung them here even at times to me it seems that there are nuemerous women compared to men.
The difference I look at is that you don't see as many men working in the downtown shops etc. That is mostly women so naturaly you are going to find a higher concentration of women in those areas. Any given day on Tveretskaya the women out number the men 10-1! But that is because it is the women working in the shops & the women doing the shopping which gives a false sense of greater #'s. Go the the suburbs where the factories are & the #'s flip to the men outnumbering the women 10-1!
I have been riding the train back & forth to Moscow to work for the past month 2-3 times per week as well as riding the Mosow Metro & the Tramway & waking the streets to perform my job. I have just out of curiosity if nothing else been checking out the female population. Not for any romantic interests, but just to see who is available etc. I look for things like a wedding or engagment ring, is she with a guy, I rate her on the 10 scale by my standards & I group them into marriage age or not. I consider that to be 25 - 45. The age group most popular amoung men searching.
Now this is not scientific by any means & only really a game I started to pass the time. It has been my experience that the #'s are much closer to 1& 11/2 - 2 -1. I would say 2 - 1 at the outside of those of marragable age & looks that wouldn't scare a guy to turn gay! I believe also that that is pretty much average no matter what country you visit.
I will say those numbers could quite possibly be greater once you move out into the regions, but travel to the regions is somewhat more difficult & littered with other hazzards.
All I'm saying is don't fall for the hype, its all bullsh!t to suck you into your fantasy & nothing more.
As for their personalities well, they are as diverse as snowflakes. All you have to do is compare the personalities of those who post on this very board & you have your answer.
JMHO & nothing more!

[wxman]

Whereas... in Russia, it is always a song of a woman whining for a man who had left her.  It's just that according to RW, men are just so hard to find.

Add a pickup truck, a dog and booze, and you got the classic American country song.     See, we're not so much different after all.

[wxman]

My fiancee has parents that are Russian, but she was born and raised in Ukraine. She has told me a few times that even when she goes back to visit family in Russia, she is considered Ukrainian and not Russian. Her bloodline means nothing in Russia. A few times while in Kiev she was discriminated because she spoke Russian. I didn't believe her until she proved it. Once while in Borispol airport I wanted a bottle of water and went to the counter and asked for it in english, and it was happily served to me. She followed me and asked for the same thing in Russian and they told her they were out of bottled water water, even though the cooler was full of bottled water for all to see. I went up there again to complain, and they were willing to sell me a second bottle, which wisely I refused.

[Kuna]

Rvrwnd,

I think you're right about the numbers...  I never liked the "Not enough men" propoganda on sites because it has some inherent risks...

Picture this...  Nice girl from FSU can't find a man because there are none.  Foreigner turns up and she marries him because there's no other men around.  They live together "happily" but after arriving in the west she realises there are many men around.. hers isn't so unique.  WAIT!!!  There's a man that is available AND attractive to her for whatever reason.  Husband of 2 years doesn't seem like such a great catch now.

In my opinion just being a man and available isn't a good enough reason to get married so anyone relying on the numbers for success is aiming for trouble (IMHO).

Kuna

[Mir]

I agree that the abundance of women in FSU is a myth. Yes there are lot more women then men but they are all babushkas. More men died in WW2 (but that ended 60 years ago) and life expectancy in FSU is much shorter for men then women.

I think both women are tough depending on their upbringing and circumstances. When you talk about real Ukrainian women,that is those who live in Eastern Ukraine and speak Ukrainian then they are much less likely to look for a foreign man while those in far east of Ukraine are no different from Russian women.
I agree that the days when a American arriving in a Russian town was treated by the female population like a rock star are long gone.

Wxman

There is some official policy to discriminate against people speaking Russian to encourage them to speak English. it is rather like Wales where people who speak Welsh have a much better chance of getting a job.
however I have seen Russian spoken widely in Kiev, infact seen it spoken much more then Russian.All conversations end with spaseeba and not with dayakuyou!

[ScottinCrimea]

I agree with Rvrwind's post.  I live in Crimea and observe the same things that he does.  I think all of this talk about Russian women being different fro Ukrainian women is just an attempt by one group or the other to prove that they are better.  Living in Crimea, most of my experience is with "Russian" women, but I have traveled to western Ukraine and have friends there and I really don't see such a big difference.  If anything, my female friends there are softer and less controlling than the "Russian" women I know.  I think it all comes down to individual personalities.

I don't know where Chelchov comes off saying that in Southern Ukraine people are "kind of like Greek/Turkish-mediterranean.  Maybe 14% of the population of Crimea is Tatar with a small mix of Turkish and very few Greeks.  The vast majority are Russian in heritage.

As far as language discrimination, I've never observed any against Russian.  When I've traveled to Kiev or western Ukraine my wife and I have always spoken Russian with no problems at all.  I think wxman's experience reflected that person's personal bias, not a general one.  I know some here in Crimea take offense if someone speaks Ukrainian and one woman I know refuses to go to one theater because they sometimes present plays in Ukrainian.

[wxman]

Mir,

She was discriminated because she spoke Russian and not Ukrainian. This was right after the Orange Revolution and the national fervor with Yuschenko and his anti Russian stance. He tried to take the stance that everyone should speak Ukrainian, and many people took it to heart in Kiev and went out of their way to treat the Russians of eastern Ukraine as non Ukrainians. Funny how things change quickly and Yushencko has lost his luster, and it is now hard to find anyone speaking Ukrainian.  

[Mir]

Wx

It was not only after the Orange rev, I am sure if your GF was at school in 1991-92 when Ukraine declared its independence she would have told you the problems when all education was switched from Russian to Ukrainian. Not only a new language was to spoken and taught in but also because of the suppression of written Ukrainian under the tsars there was not much Ukrainian literature available to read.

[wxman]

Mir,

She was already out of school at that time so she did not experience that while in school. It was a rough time for Ukraine after the collapse of the Soviet Union. What she told me is there was an anti Russian reaction then, but it cooled off for many years under Kuchma, and then nationalism reappeared in full force during the last presidential election. Yuschenko rallied the people against the corrupt Kuchma govenment, but in her eyes it was a rally against Russia. This was her description of the events. I guess that is why she is a big Yanukovich fan. He has a pro Russian stance. I try not to discuss politics of her country too much, as it gets her blood flowing, and secondly because I know little of what is going on there politically. It's their country, and they will solve their own problems.

My apologies for the diversion from the current topic. We now return to normal programming.
 

[ScottinCrimea]

Here in Simferopol the education is still conducted in Russian, though they are required to take classes in Ukrainian.  There is one new school outside of Simferopol that is a "Ukrainian" school where classes are conducted in Ukrainian but other than that, it's all Russian.  At least locally there has been some resistance to requiring only Ukrainian to be used in schools.  I think most here are like my daughter.  Even though she studies Ukrainian and can understand it pretty well when watching programs in Ukrainian on TV, she can't speak it other than on a very basic level.  It's kind of like me with Portuguese.  Because I speak Spanish fluently, I can understand Portuguese pretty well, but I would have difficulty speaking it.

[Wayne B]

Scott, Chelchov has a good reason for Greek/Turkish influence Odessos - Colony of Greeks ( Odessa)    As far as ratio of Russian man/woman 10 year Russian/Afgan war. and safety standards of male workers in Russia.

[SANDRO43]

a good reason for Greek/Turkish influence Odessos - Colony of Greeks (Odessa) 

Wayne, the presence of many Greek toponyms in Crimea, and more generally on the shores of the Black Sea (Εὔξεινος Πόντος,  the 'hospitable sea') reflects a history long past and profoundly changed by subsequent events. I doubt there may be many descendants of our Venetian and Genoese traders there, either .

The southern coast of the Crimean peninsula has been the focus of intense maritime activity for nearly three millennia. From the earliest historical references to Greek colonization of the Crimean coast in the 8th century BC, Crimea has been home to numerous cultures: ancient Greeks, Scythians, Byzantines, Goths, Genoese, Turks, Russians, and Ukrainians, among others.

(source : http://nautarch.tamu.edu/projects/crimea/final.htm)

[Wayne B]

Sandro, If a man goes to Odessa, and sit's to watch the people....he will see the 'Greek' influence in many of the beautiful 'women' there

[Nat]

Nice girl from FSU can't find a man because there are none.  Foreigner turns up and she marries him because there's no other men around.  They live together "happily" but after arriving in the west she realises there are many men around.. hers isn't so unique.  WAIT!!!  There's a man that is available AND attractive to her for whatever reason.  Husband of 2 years doesn't seem like such a great catch now.

Don't forget that before marrying this foreign husband she chooses him from a lot of men available on the Internet, communicates with him, meets him and understands that he is not only a foreigner, but a man she can relay upon, trust and love, that they have common interests and common views about family life. So it decreases the risk of divorces I think

As for the topic – I think there is NO significant difference between RW and UW, because we all are Slavic sisters

As for language discrimination in Kiev – it really takes place sometimes. But it’s very rare.

[Kuna]

Don't forget that before marrying this foreign husband she chooses him from a lot of men available on the Internet, communicates with him, meets him and understands that he is not only a foreigner, but a man she can relay upon, trust and love, that they have common interests and common views about family life. So it decreases the risk of divorces I think

Helloooooo Nat,  haven't seen you around in a few days... nice to see you're back!   

One would hope what you said above is what happens but I think the fact is that some men go to FSU thinking they can walk in and walk out with a wife because there are "no good men in FSU".  Of course every relationship should be based on the things you mentioned... some evidently are not.   

[Nat]

Helloooooo Nat,  haven't seen you around in a few days... nice to see you're back!   

I've been here all this time following recent fights here Btw, i sent you a PM not so long ago

One would hope what you said above is what happens but I think the fact is that some men go to FSU thinking they can walk in and walk out with a wife because there are "no good men in FSU". 

Well, you’re right of course – I’ve met some men in the Internet, who thought, that they can find a wife only “being foreigners”. I’ve heard the myth about “no good men” as well, even here, where people are well informed about FSU In fact, it’s not that there are not good men, there are not enough single men That’s why a woman often has to look overseas to create her own family. But of course it doesn’t mean that she’ll get married to the first single man she has seen

Of course every relationship should be based on the things you mentioned... some evidently are not.   

Well, exclusions always exist...

[Mir]

Wyane B

Greeks had a much more profound presence in Egypt with a whole dynasty of phros being of the Greek heritage.
Still I doubt anyone beleived that the Egyptian women have a Greek flavour.
Even the name of Odessa coming from a Greek colony is doubtful.Many think the name derived from a sarcastic remark about water or the lack of it:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa#History
In the AD 15th century, nomadic tribes of the Nogays under the suzerainty of the Khanate of Crimea inhabited what is now the Odessa region. During the reign of Khan Haci I Giray, the Khanate was endangered by the Golden Horde and the Ottoman Turks and, in search of allies, the khan agreed to cede the area to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

The site of present-day Odessa was then a town known as Khadjibey (also spelled as Khadjibei, Khadzhibei, or Gadzhibei; Lithuanian: Chadžibėjus; Crimean Tatar and Turkish: Hacıbey) and was part of the Dykra region. However, the area was only sparsely populated with Turkic tribes and consisted mostly of unpopulated steppes.

 
Odessa Сircuit Court building and Church of the monastery of St. Panteleimon (church consecrated in 1895; used as a planetarium from 1961–1991).
Panthaleimon str. St. Panthaleimon ConventKhadjibey came under direct control of the Ottoman Empire after 1529 and was part of a region known as Yedisan and was administered in the Ottoman Silistra (Özi) Province. In the mid-18th century, the Ottomans rebuilt a fortress at Khadjibey, which was named Eni Dunia (Turkish: Yeni Dünya, literally "new world"). During the Russo-Turkish War of 1787–1792, on 25 September 1789, a detachment of Russian forces under Ivan Gudovich took Khadjibey and Yeni Dünya for the Russian Empire. One part of the troops was under command of a Spaniard in Russian service, Major General José de Ribas (known in Russia as Osip Mikhailovich Deribas) and the main street in Odessa today, Deribasovskaya street, is named after him. Russia formally gained possession of the area as a result of the Treaty of Jassy (Iaşi) in 1792 and it became a part of the so-called Novorossiya ("New Russia"). A city was officially founded in 1794 as a Russian naval fortress on the ruins of Khadjibey and renamed Odessa by January 1795, when its new name was first mentioned in official correspondence. Neither the origin of the new name nor reasons for renaming are known, though etymologies and anecdotes abound. According to one of the stories, when someone suggested Odessos as a name for the new Russian port, Catherine II said that all names in the South of the Empire were already 'masculine,' and didn't want yet another one, so she decided to change it to more 'feminine' Odessa. This anecdote is highly dubious, because there were at least two cities (Eupatoria and Theodosia) whose names sound 'feminine' for a Russian; besides, the Czarina was not a native Russian speaker, and finally, all cities are feminine in Greek (as well as in Latin). Another legend derives the name 'Odessa' from the word-play: in French (which was then the language spoken at the Russian court), 'plenty of water' is assez d'eau; if said backwards, it sounds similar to that of the Greek colony's name (and water-related pun makes perfect sense, because Odessa, though situated next to the huge body of water, has limited fresh water supply). Anyhow, a link with the name of the ancient Greek colony persists, so there might be some truth in the oral tradition.

[Wayne B]

Mir, what I am trying to say is that you can see the past history of long ago in some of the women in Odessa.... having strong Grecian and / or Turkish features in their appearance!  I noticed that some of the women in Novosibirsk had Asian features

[Nat]

Mir, what I am trying to say is that you can see the past history of long ago in some of the women in Odessa.... having strong Grecian and / or Turkish features in their appearance!

And also Tatar features can be met all over Ukraine

[DKMM]

Actually its the Bulgars that you are referring to Wayne.  They are scattered around SW Ukraine near the Odessa region and mixed in with quite a few UA lineages.  Its what gives those women an exotic look as they are a branch of the turkic/tartar peoples.  They kinda look "greek" but that's because a lot of greeks are hellenized slavic/turkic/bulgar as well.  I'm sure Wiz could confirm that. 

[2tallbill]

I think both women are tough depending on their upbringing and circumstances. When you talk about real Ukrainian women,that is those who live in Eastern Ukraine and speak Ukrainian then they are much less likely to look for a foreign man while those in far east of Ukraine are no different from Russian women.
I agree that the days when a American arriving in a Russian town was treated by the female population like a rock star are long gone.
There is some official policy to discriminate against people speaking Russian to encourage them to speak English. it is rather like Wales where people who speak Welsh have a much better chance of getting a job.
however I have seen Russian spoken widely in Kiev, infact seen it spoken much more then Russian.All conversations end with spaseeba and not with dayakuyou!

I had always thought it was the other way around that Western Ukraine spoke more Ukrainian and Eastern more Russian I have attached a map I always figured North was up and I see all the women in the agencies live in cities to the right which in my mind has alway been East. I dont have a globe to figure this out for sure. Did I really have this all backwards? Could someone set me straight?

Bill