'Code of Conduct' for Men....

[Fiorella]

And now Kvinnas shadow Fiorella shows up. like I didn't see that comin'. ::)Your kidding right??
I have never read anything on AntiDate that would constitute what could be considered guidelines. A few of my lady friends have read over there & you really don't want to hear their opinions, they were far from flattering in fact downright insulting.
They have no code of conduct for themselves or their members. They have written no rules regarding posting men to their blacklist. No guidelines for verifying information. The only stand they take is the stand that American men should not even be allowed to date Russian women much less marry them.
They are a bunch of middle aged, communist holdover malcontents that are pi$$ed because some of their country women had the brains, or should I say the audacity, to accept the love of a foreign man & leave Russia & its infestation of AntiDate hoodlums to fester in their own pi$$!!!

You can continue to be pi$$. But you better ask your "ladies" to read antidate more and with more attention. (But of course being smart women they just say to you what you want to hear and not what is wrote).

[Fiorella]

I like the idea of guidelines better, that small change & further explanation of the goal has served to sway my opinion, a little. I'll wait to see what comes out before I give any firm judgements. I do agree that allowing the AntiDate Achtivists to participate is way wrong.
In fact I'm thinkin' that whole crew should be bloody banned & there IP's blocked so they can't even read this board. My patience is totally worn out with that bunch of Babushkas.
Their poster girls, Kvinna & Fiorella, actually are making western women look good!!! Damn, now I'll have to cut my tongue out for saying that!

I also love you very much 

[Kuna]

I will answer to your important question first:

AntiDate is and always was open for discussion and cooperation with western men. It is western men who are against us and always was against us. It is only western men have saint right to post russian women on multiple black lists as scammers (criminal accusations by the way) without court and investigation. You even made 10 commandments how to recognise russian scammer, don't you? May be you forgot our discussions in Shadow chat where we also discussed about our politics and the possibility to work together?

Antidate is not court and not online police. I don't know why you all are so fixed on sex-tourists, but there are much more possibilities to cheat online.

I have questions back to all:

- Is it accepted to RWD members to hide their age more then 5-10-20 years?
- Is it accepted to promise happy marriage to women being currently happily married?
- Is it accepted to RWD members to send their nude photos in first letters to women without their consent?
- Is it accepted to force women to send their nude photos otherwise they will be posted on antiscam sites as scaammers?
- Is it possible to RWD members to make women pay for them (i.e. for men) during men's visit to her claiming that "his Credit card doesn't work, he only have checks, he forgot his pocket"?
- Is it possible to provocate women to tell about their "poor and hard life", so they can use it as possible scam attempt?
- Is it possible to force women to have sex on first meeting and even try to rape her?
- Is it possible for RWD members to write long years sweet letters promising to visit and marry as soon as possible and then die, and later revive on the same dating site?
- Is it possible to RWD members hide their mental and physical serious diseases and criminal records?

And what should women do with all these men?

Of course, AntiDate is strongly against any attempt for money from western men, even when men offer it themselves (ESPECIALLY when men offer it).

I still don't see Antidates Code of Conduct for women...  but I see some very good questions above.

I've started a new thread and think all men might like to comment on the points raised by Fiorella.  It might help build understanding...

Fiorella, does Antidate have a Code of Ethics for women?

[wxman]

The problem with these anti scam sites, is that their object may be to inform people of abusers, but in reality they treat women and men as less than human, act as judge, jury and executioner, and then to top it all off, publicly humiliate them. Part of a "Code of Conduct" for both men and women, should be an active pursuit in eliminating such sites, or if that is not possible, not to actively participate or assist in the operations of these sites.  

[BillyB]

Fiorella,

How do you feel about the average American?

How do you feel about the average man?

How do you feel about a husband?

Could you ever marry an American man?

I'm just wondering how you feel because I sense a lot of anger in your words.

[Fiorella]

The problem with these anti scam sites, is that their object may be to inform people of abusers, but in reality they treat women and men as less than human, act as judge, jury and executioner, and then to top it all off, publicly humiliate them. Part of a "Code of Conduct" for both men and women, should be an active pursuit in eliminating such sites, or if that is not possible, not to actively participate or assist in the operations of these sites.  

And can I ask you what do you think about so-called antiscam sites paid by an marriage agency and acting as a way to kill competitors that not so rarely happens?

[Fiorella]

Fiorella,

How do you feel about the average American?

How do you feel about the average man?

How do you feel about a husband?

Could you ever marry an American man?

I'm just wondering how you feel because I sense a lot of anger in your words.

I cannot marry american man because I already have swedish man. But I have some friends - american men and they are very nice and decent men. One of them you even know (lol). And if I would be free and they would be free and it happen to us to fall in love, I am sure they would be very good husbands.

But when I read when a men scream against women's protection from abuse, (like many american men, screamed against IMBRA) what should I think about these men? Is he doesn't what me to have protection then he wants to have possibility to abuse me free?

[Fiorella]

http://forum.antidate.org/index.php?showtopic=3270&st=0

These are criterias why men can be posted on AntiDate as Cheaters.
Don't forget - AntiDate don't call men Scammers!

[wxman]

And can I ask you what do you think about so-called antiscam sites paid by an marriage agency and acting as a way to kill competitors that not so rarely happens?

Fiorella,

I have never used or have been associated with the marriage agencies, so my answer is a guess at best. I have no doubt that in the business world, there are some marriage agencies who sponsor these so called anti scam sites and then try and destroy sites that are trying to be honest. The question is, how do we eliminate such practices? That's why I said we should not support any of those types of sites. You bring up many valid points. I'm still trying to figure out how to stop such things. I'm am appalled when sites publish photos of people and label them as scammers. To me it is simply wrong. Maybe I still think we can live in a normal world where people respect each other. perhaps it is too much to wish for.

[I/O]

So what will be the result? Each and every man interested in a  Russian lady must sign up to this "Code of Codsh!te" before he can apply for a Russian visa? Maybe a parallel one could be developed for the Russian ladies to sign up to also.  Yeah right...!!!

If any of you guys involved here think for one moment that by setting some code of ethics and lifting the game of the western men, it is going to encourage the lower end of the Russian women to change their ways, you don't know much about Russia.  Conversely, if the Russian ladies think for a moment they can force the "grubs" from the west to lift their game, they obviously don't know much either.   

I've been a loud critic of many, perhaps most of the western men in this pursuit, but something like this won't make one iota of difference. The percentage of people involved that will and do read a board like this is very small. 

A "Gentleman" will usually make the grade in this pursuit in the same way as a "Lady" will and as for the rest, frankly I don't much care. On both sides, they will play their games just as they always have and why? Why do dogs p!ss on trees? Because the opportunity is available.

Simple common decency will cut the mustard every time when in another country and no less in this pursuit.  Nobody is going to force common decency into someone who is fundamentally indecent.

I am all for ongoing and open discussion as to how people (Both men and women) should behave in this pursuit, but as for narrowing it down to some sort of code, you'll see more rule breakers than rule takers.

IMHO the whole thing should be consigned to it's rightful place, which is the bowels of this board so it can rot with the rest of the "stinks" which get kicked up here from time to time.

I/O

[LEGAL]

I/O My sentiments exactly. Thankyou. 


LRGAL

[KenC]

I am totally amazed by the reactions here to such a simple idea.  Call it a "code" or call it "guidelines", I see little difference.  I don't see how anyone can be opposed to something intent on helping set a higher standard for men's activities in the fsu.  If it helps one naive man think about how he should behave (in a better manner) then the "code" would be a success.

Is there going to be a forcable application to it?  Of course not.  It will be a suggested mode of behavior.  If the suggestions help spur some thought process from the guys going over to the fsu to think about not deceiving or misleading the women they are about to meet, then it will be successful.  Most of us here behave in this higher manner anyway, so it is not for us.  It is for the guy that may not have given any thought to how his actions will be perceived by women in the fsu.

I don't see the "code" changing anything the "good guys" would do or in all truthfulness will it change the "bad guys" much at all.  (The sex tourists or the guys looking to use the MOB system because they have no other alternatives)  What I hope it will do is make some of the guys think about their actions before they take their trips to the fsu.  Think and just maybe adjust their behavior in a favorable way.  If it helps just one man to present himself in a better way, then it will be a success.  Please tell me how that can possibly be bad?
KenC

[Kuna]

I am totally amazed by the reactions here to such a simple idea.  Call it a "code" or call it "guidelines", I see little difference.  I don't see how anyone can be opposed to something intent on helping set a higher standard for men's activities in the fsu.  If it helps one naive man think about how he should behave (in a better manner) then the "code" would be a success.

Is there going to be a forcable application to it?  Of course not.  It will be a suggested mode of behavior.  If the suggestions help spur some thought process from the guys going over to the fsu to think about not deceiving or misleading the women they are about to meet, then it will be successful.  Most of us here behave in this higher manner anyway, so it is not for us.  It is for the guy that may not have given any thought to how his actions will be perceived by women in the fsu.

I don't see the "code" changing anything the "good guys" would do or in all truthfulness will it change the "bad guys" much at all.  (The sex tourists or the guys looking to use the MOB system because they have no other alternatives)  What I hope it will do is make some of the guys think about their actions before they take their trips to the fsu.  Think and just maybe adjust their behavior in a favorable way.  If it helps just one man to present himself in a better way, then it will be a success.  Please tell me how that can possibly be bad?
KenC

I couldn't have said it any better myself!

[BillyB]

Some people will be who they are and never change and never learn. Some people do want to learn and are looking to self improve.

How many people read RWD and say it has not improved/enriched their life in some way? Many guys out there probably ridicule forums and riducule members here because they can't understand why guys here get/give advice and they themselves feel they don't need to learn anything because they have their sh!t together already?

Should a happily, successfully married man to a RW for 20 years, never participating in a RW forum, have to right to criticise everyone here? Did he actually know it all or was he just lucky? Maybe a little of both. For all we know, he proposed on the first day.

I don't use the scam card or other features here. Some do and feel it's important because they do not have the capabilities to figure things out such as scammers yet. Maybe pointing out simple codes of conduct which could be elementary to us pros may be valuable to someone else. Yes, newbies could read for days on RWD on how to conduct themselves but most members stay for a short time. A quick rundown of conduct like the ten commandments may actually be more valuable to them than making them force read many threads over the years.

To those who are still wondering why there are few participating on this code of conduct, ask yourself why you're not participation and withholding wisdom.

[ScottinCrimea]

I've been scratching my head throughout this whole thread wondering why so many have such a big problem with it.  I just don't get it.  They write as if it's going to be some manifesto to be enforced under threat of death when all it will be is a "Hey guys, here are some good ideas" sort of thing.

We've got some people here willing to put some effort into something that might help a few people, and at least show we have the balls to point out right from wrong.  It seems like the same people here who consistently give out bad advice are the same ones who are against this project.  Maybe they're afraid that for them it will look more like a mirror than a guideline

[Daveman]

I've been scratching my head throughout this whole thread wondering why so many have such a big problem with it.  I just don't get it. 

Scott, you already get it.  It's the "bottom line" in any situation.

Behavior is symptomatic of underlying emotion.   In most cases, it has very little to do with the document itself.

Dave

[KenC]

I've been scratching my head throughout this whole thread wondering why so many have such a big problem with it.  I just don't get it.  They write as if it's going to be some manifesto to be enforced under threat of death when all it will be is a "Hey guys, here are some good ideas" sort of thing.

We've got some people here willing to put some effort into something that might help a few people, and at least show we have the balls to point out right from wrong.  It seems like the same people here who consistently give out bad advice are the same ones who are against this project.  Maybe they're afraid that for them it will look more like a mirror than a guideline

Scott,
I usually agree with just about everything you write here, but I have to take exception to the highlighted portion of your post.  I don't understand the Legals, I/O's or the jb's that seem to come out in a negative manner with the idea of publishing some guidelines.  I respect these members very much, but I don't understand their opposing stance to the suggested guidelines.
KenC

[LEGAL]

If people have to be taught common sense, they should just stay at home.
The way this came about is why I take this position. ScottinCrimea I will ask you to be direct. Am I  consistently giving out bad advice?


LEGAL

[KenC]

If people have to be taught common sense. They should just stay at home.
The way this came about is why I take this position.


LEGAL

Most of what we talk about here is common sense.  So, that really cannot be the issue.

How this "came about"?  What do you mean?  The selection process for the committee members?  The people who are on the committee?  You can have my spot if that is the case because I do not understand how anyone but Gator is important to putting this thing together any way.  Everyone can have their input here through posting.  I do not see any advantage to being on the committee over being a regular member here.
KenC

[LEGAL]

Ken I like you very much and value all of your opinions as well as many others like gator. I am very tired and this thread  will again get out of control if I answer and I don't want that to happen. I think you know me pretty good and Gator can probably explain it better than me. I am trying to limit my post and involvement



LEGAL

[Fiorella]

Fiorella,

I have never used or have been associated with the marriage agencies, so my answer is a guess at best. I have no doubt that in the business world, there are some marriage agencies who sponsor these so called anti scam sites and then try and destroy sites that are trying to be honest. The question is, how do we eliminate such practices? That's why I said we should not support any of those types of sites. You bring up many valid points. I'm still trying to figure out how to stop such things. I'm am appalled when sites publish photos of people and label them as scammers. To me it is simply wrong. Maybe I still think we can live in a normal world where people respect each other. perhaps it is too much to wish for.

I think it will be possible when will be real strong laws about Internet activities. And it seems we will wait it for a long time. And don't forget that exist lots of "black lists" with Russian women, already coreans make them and only 2 (one forum and one newsletter) - with western men and they have much less men posted then russian women who was posted by agency competitor or rejected men as a revenge.

[Fiorella]

I think instead of cade what to do is nesessary to make a code what NOT to do. What men's behaviour women don't accept and don't like. And this list must be suggested by women as we know what treatments we don't want to have toward us.

[ScottinCrimea]

I think instead of cade what to do is nesessary to make a code what NOT to do. What men's behaviour women don't accept and don't like. And this list must be suggested by women as we know what treatments we don't want to have toward us.

I think this is a reasonable suggestion and one idea on how the "code" should be framed.  So then we call it the Code of Misconduct?

[KenC]

I think instead of cade what to do is nesessary to make a code what NOT to do. What men's behaviour women don't accept and don't like. And this list must be suggested by women as we know what treatments we don't want to have toward us.

OK, now give us some secifics.
KenC

[BillyB]

I think it will be possible when will be real strong laws about Internet activities. And it seems we will wait it for a long time. And don't forget that exist lots of "black lists" with Russian women, already coreans make them and only 2 (one forum and one newsletter) - with western men and they have much less men posted then russian women who was posted by agency competitor or rejected men as a revenge.

Fiorella, there will always be sites, books and magazines making recommendations and criticising what car to buy or who to date. Is having blacklist sites in existance such a bad thing? If so then we need to say Antidate(AD) is a bad thing. Just as you are critical of how anti scam sites list women, some men here were critical on how anti date list men.

I believe AD's original mission was a good one to protect women from the worset men but when they took an eye for an eye attitude and listed men in the same way the worse antiscam sites did for women, AD becomes no better than those they criticise.

There are a lot of people in this world that have bad attitudes and bad manners but it is still their right to marry.... hopefully to a person that matches with them. There are no polititians brave enough to create a law to rate people and say who has the right to marry or not.

The biggest problem is not the men at RWD who by the way are on average semi-successful and think highly of their wives, fiancee's and girlfriends, it is the men who cross from over from international sex tourism realm to the international dating/marriage realm. They should stay with prostitutes instead of targeting sincere women. But how to police it? The best way is for each and every woman to be on guard of these type of men by getting to know them before they bed them. Governments could do very little to prevent sex tourism and somehow I think the governments don't really care because of the tourist dollars sex tourist brings to their country and the fact some governments legalize prostitution.