Lily invited me ...

[Lily]

'thou shall not work, thou shall not eat'

What happened to from each according to his abilities to each according to his needs? LOL!

The line quoted by you never belonged to the socialist Soviet system. It was the word 'performance' instead of 'needs'. Each should get according to his performance.

The line above was describing another system, a step above the socialism. The communism I mean.

Socialism was the real system. Communism was supposed to be a better system somewhere in the future.  , when everyone will get what he needs.

[seeya]

New and learning fast.

I did not mean offense when I suggested up thread that money was / is a big reason for RW seeking AM.  There are a wave of other posts (mostly be RW)  that are brutally honest about RW view on age gaps.

And this post has made several valid points other that JUST MONEY.  But, is sum, I'm getting the picture that a AM means a ticket out of here - at least for some RW.

[Lily]

Lilly

I totally agree with the WXman comments but that reply came from an AM and not from a RW!

 

I told that I agree with what he and other WM have said. Where do I sign?

I admit my comments are rather vague, but the subject is very complicated. People gave very good comments on it, they have been indeed very precise and right to the point, so that we can see the issue from multiple angles. Everything they said is true.

At the same time, I agree with you that not every woman share the view that I describe.

Futher on, you mention a situation where the man has no means to support his RW. First, in some cases the applicant for a fiancee visa must show a certain level of income in order to qualify for the visa. That eliminates cases where he has no means to support.

Additionally, if the couple feels that his income still leaves something to be desired, I don't see anything that could prevent the RW to look for work. I can hardly imagine a person who does not work, unless there are some compelling reasons for her not to be in labor market.

Now on the life standards. If a FSU person moves permanently to the West, in most cases that already means improvement of life standards, or they just stay the same. I mean the daily life. 2tallbill shows it very well in his message.

Well, probably I can not help concluding that the motivation would be love. Life standards can be nice additional perks but not the main motivation.

But please kindly note that I cannot speak for all women.

[macman]

WIZ

BTW I am not American, I was born in Greece and live in UK. I do not have the need to use those substances you make reference to! It maybe more appropriate in your case.

This was NOT an inference to you or me or anybody in particular using those mood altering/changing substances.  It was simply a tangential thought.  How many AW are using those 80%?  How many RW 10%?

I apologize nevertheless.  I was simply curious that you had been to the FSU quite a bit - leading me to believe you were quite experienced.
Thanks for sharing a bit!

mm

[wiz]

I told that I agree with what he and other WM have said. Where do I sign?

I admit my comments are rather vague, but the subject is very complicated. People gave very good comments on it, they have been indeed very precise and right to the point, so that we can see the issue from multiple angles. Everything they said is true.

At the same time, I agree with you that not every woman share the view that I describe.

Futher on, you mention a situation where the man has no means to support his RW. First, in some cases the applicant for a fiancee visa must show a certain level of income in order to qualify for the visa. That eliminates cases where he has no means to support.

Additionally, if the couple feels that his income still leaves something to be desired, I don't see anything that could prevent the RW to look for work. I can hardly imagine a person who does not work, unless there are some compelling reasons for her not to be in labor market.

Now on the life standards. If a FSU person moves permanently to the West, in most cases that already means improvement of life standards, or they just stay the same. I mean the daily life. 2tallbill shows it very well in his message.

Well, probably I can not help concluding that the motivation would be love. Life standards can be nice additional perks but not the main motivation.

But please kindly note that I cannot speak for all women.

Lily

Your are too good to be true.....LOL

Have you got a sister or a friend with the same qualities like you.... and must be well over 40... I have no "mirror's" around anymore and I can offer her a normal life....LOL

Now that the board is clear of certain personalities, I enjoy talking and debating many subjects without the provocation and personal attacks from the past and as you can see we always, at the end, agree!

Have a nice long holiday there from sunny and very hot South of England.


Macman

Sorry I am not a doctor to know how many Russian women use those substances... but I know my old flame's house it resembled an ABTEKA! At 62 years old I have some experience in women but RW are a different game especially when you fall in love with one of them and is a bad apple!

People in love do crazy things and I did them all........so now I take everything on my stride!

Noishto!

[Turkey]

This has been an interesting thread but I feel like we're straying a bit.  I am under the belief that the question is why WM vs. FSUM.  The question is not why marry any M.  Ultimately, love etc. to be sure but the issue is why would a FSUW choose to leave hearth and home to move to another country without her current network of friends/family and potentially initially have poor communication skills.

I don't disagree with Lilly's notion that the ultimate decision will be based upon the individual FSUW's belief that she has found true love.  My question is why WM instead of FSUM?

I don't think that WM are 'better' or more 'lovable' than FSUM, therefore I don't necessarily think that the answer to the question lies with the men themselves.  I can only assume that it has to do more with the West vs. FSU rather than the M vs. M.  Whether this is perceived by W to be the increased income of the individual or the WM's society is of more pertinence than whether or not she has common interests or values with the M as those issues are assumed in this discussion.

[Gator]

Turkey,

Men are men and women are women everywhere; nevertheless, RM/UM are as different from us as RW/UW differ from AW. 

And one can not stereotype them, just as not all AM are the same.  There are good ones and there are bad ones.   And what is good to me may be bad to you.

This question is best answered by the individual women you meet, if you ever meet any.  Their answers will vary. 

BTW, this thread parallels another about motivation.

[Turkey]

"RM/UM are as different from us as RW/UW differ from AW.  "

Point taken.  Movement of people for economic opportunity is for me the easy answer.  America was founded on people looking for religious and economic opportunity.  Many large waves of migration have occurred in our history.  There are large numbers now of hispanic peoples immigrating legally and illegally in search of the 'American Dream'. 

I guess I think of this first because it's so prevalent in our society.  I don't think it's bad, on the contrary.  But besides this, i've read where there are male prejudices against dating women with children in the FSU.  I think it's appropriate for men to gain some understanding for why FSUW would be interested in WM.  I know I am ^^

[Lily]

  My question is why WM instead of FSUM?

 

All condition being equal, I'd prefer a Russian man. However, the conditions are not equal. Not at all.

This is really an essay question. Just let me be very short and show 2 main big issues:

- RM are not available for commitment, and
- RM are less attractive than WM.

[DKMM]

My responses from girls have pretty much been all the same.  Lily's post falls within that category. 

Only someone blind could go to Russia and wonder why the girls there want a western man.  If you think its for economic opportunity - in this day and age - you are headed for a collision with a cold hard wall of reality.

[wiz]

My responses from girls have pretty much been all the same.  Lily's post falls within that category. 

Only someone blind could go to Russia and wonder why the girls there want a western man.  If you think its for economic opportunity - in this day and age - you are headed for a collision with a cold hard wall of reality.

That is a very general assumption and statement and you can continue fooling yourself with that notion.

Sure after a week they are maddly in love with you and they want to get away from all these unavailable and ugly Russian men to follow the Gods gift to women AM and be happy ever after.

I think you are heading for a collision with a cold hard wall of reality and I wish to be wrong!

Only time will tell!

[Turkey]

That is a very general assumption and statement and you can continue fooling yourself with that notion.

Sure after a week they are maddly in love with you and they want to get away from all these unavailable and ugly Russian men to follow the Gods gift to women AM and be happy ever after.

I think you are heading for a collision with a cold hard wall of reality and I wish to be wrong!

Only time will tell!

To find an AM physically attractive is to find all men physically attractive as there are no 'indigenous' people.  But, I suspect that the term attractive in Lily's and DKMM's posts may not be of the physical kind.

[HiTech]

Lily, Jazz:
Resently I sent this email, and my lady became very hurt and upset about it's content. I have never completely understood the reason why. Any insights?

This was after our first meeting of 1 week.

Today I thought I would write you a different type of letter. I want to describe to you some of my expectations about you. Please understand that my feelings about you make me believe that you think as I do about a lot of things. So I am going to be very direct in my descriptions.

Natalia, even by American standards I am well off financially. But I have not always been that way. I started my first business when I was 28. There have been times where I would have had to go with out a lot of things. I remember one week where I had less than $5 to spend on food for an entire week. During these hard times my sister helped me out financially. When I started my current company in 1999 I had no income for over 1 year and at the same time I was paying 5 other people to work for me. During the building time I worked about 400 days in a row with out a single day off.

But what the hard times taught me is to not have a strong desire for physical things. I would much rather feel secure financially then to just spend my money on every new cool thing that hits the market. For instance my TV is 20 years old, but it still is in perfect condition and I have no desire to replace it with the newest and biggest TV.

Now this is in contrast to how you have seen me. Please understand I am by no means a greedy person. I spend my money on things that do give me great pleasure. My airplane is one of those things. I spend more on my airplane than I do on my apartment. But my airplane as brought me some of the greatest pleasure I have ever had until meeting you. When friends need help I would rather I go without and help them as much as I can. This is because people did that for me when I needed help.

I want you to understand that this time in my life is at a time when all my previous hard work and luck has finally started to benefit me greatly.

I just want to make sure that you have the correct expectations of me. From knowing you I do not believe we will have very different opinions on the financial topic. I believe of the gifts I gave you the Picture of us together and my own big T-shirt were the gifts you enjoyed the most. So please understand I can provide for all our family’s and your needs. I just do not desire a person who wants everything and thinks that because one has money it must be spent. Or a person who thinks that because some one else has something we should have it also.

Natalia, tell me how you think about my view of money.

Natalia, You must also have things you want to make sure are as you feel they are about me. Please lets get to know each other at this deeper level. And for some time yet letters are the only way I know of doing this.

[William3rd]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm- I am waiting to see what the response will be from the ladies. This should be very interesting.

[Sohkay]

HT,
1) This could be interpreted as implying she is like this.

"I just do not desire a person who wants everything and thinks that because one has money it must be spent. Or a person who thinks that because some one else has something we should have it also."

2) Your writing style is confusing for even a native English speaker. Things like,

"Natalia, You must also have things you want to make sure are as you feel they are about me. Please lets get to know each other at this deeper level. And for some time yet letters are the only way I know of doing this."

And there are others. Also, does that last sentence about letters mean you aren't going to see her for a long time...or this process is going to take a long time?

Just off the top of my head. One really good idea would be to talk with her about this.

Good luck.

[HiTech]

Sohkay: This letter is from about 3 months ago. I just spent 2.5 more weeks with her in May, and also talk to her daily on the phone.

The comment you are asking about, her english is improving but not at the level to discuss complex topics over the phone.
It is a request for her to do more communicating via email.

I did ask her about it a number of times, but her explanation never completely made since to me. Not a topic I really wish to ask her about again at this point. So I am just trying to understand via different means.

[Sohkay]

HT,
It will be interesting to see what others say.

Maybe it's best to try and struggle through it on the phone. It also helps the two of you to have speaking communication. Just take a little piece at a time and do it over a period of time.

I mean, you've got to learn to communicate about deep issues.
Just don't go too deep too fast.

[wxman]

Sorry, I withdrew my response as HighTech's question was directed at the ladies.

[IAmZon]

I am an AM with TOO MUCH verbal mombo jumbo.  And I can't stop it!

One of the things I REALLY like about talking with women with whom I have an interest with good, but limited English, is that conversation becomes very basic, meaningful, and honest.  This is not just by chance, but because there exists a more conscious focus on what is being communicated rather than style, slang, metaphors, and social reference.

So, HT ... who knows?!?  But both must understand patients, and well meaning intentions going in...

[macman]

GREAT thought Rivardco. . .

I feel the same way!  AND, if the woman knows no English - the learning between two become even more special and important; HOWEVER, part of the patience x2 to the 10th has to be in the area of communication.

Be it America, Russia or BFEgypt.


mM

NO - this is not my 0.519710 RUB at today's rate.

[Zhena]

Sohkay: This letter is from about 3 months ago. I just spent 2.5 more weeks with her in May, and also talk to her daily on the phone.

The comment you are asking about, her english is improving but not at the level to discuss complex topics over the phone.
It is a request for her to do more communicating via email.

I did ask her about it a number of times, but her explanation never completely made since to me. Not a topic I really wish to ask her about again at this point. So I am just trying to understand via different means.

No,HT. You have to get an answer ONLY from your woman. She can find a way to explain,for certain. I ll tell you,many RWs become very insulted if WM becomes to count the money Usually those RW dont have a real experience and have some illusions about WMs. They hate the *greediness* and become to think he seeks nothing but a cheap houseworker who doesnt need many money. On the womnes forums,you can find many advices like *spend as much of his money as you can*. Even some wives(mostly the young ones) follow this policy. They believe that the more a man invests in his woman,the more he appreciates her. *Lets dont be the cheap housewives*. *The russian women cost much!* And so on....I do not like the grredu men also-but I learned to realize the difference between the greediness and smart way of spending money....not immediately though. It took some time. In FSU,many people dont make the savings cos its not safe-they spend the money immediately. As I know,this topic was discussed many times here.

[Zhena]

Also be sure,all her friends and relatives will observe how much money does she get from you and make the comments its not enough ;)Maybe relatives wont,but the girlfriends will.
About a general topic. Of course,the financial ability of a man matters-I think,noone has any doubts about this. Any woman dreams to find someone who will make her dreams come true and will make her a queen. Many women in all countries marry the men not because of love,but because his very rich-in america also,isnt it But such thing as love exists(shut up,cynics ). The truth is the WM are different from RM in many points. I wont tell about some jerks-it happens everywhere-but a normal WM is much better for the family creation than RM. They are just raised in a way of respect to the family. They love the kids much more. They respect the women much more and they dont afraid to help her at home Plus many women with the kids almost dont have a chance in FSU-they have many abroad. The americans much more tolerant to her kids. To sum it up,we can see,there is not just the money-but the money are necessary in some amount 

[Gator]

HT,

I am not a RW to answer your question; however, I have had this same talk with two RW and neither interpreted correctly what I was saying about money.   Both assumed the worse, something not within my generous nature.  As you did, I had good intentions, yet they felt “insulted” as Zhena described.

This is my explanation. 

Money is a very sensitive subject with RW.  They have great pride and little money.  Many have had bad experiences with RM controlling them with money in a “greedy” manner.  They hear stories of some AM doing the same to RW wives.  It is perhaps their largest fear about leaving Russia – becoming enslaved.

So when you may explain something clearly about the need for budgets and some fiscal restraint, their perception is that you will make them beg for $1 to buy some bottled water.  This is not what you meant, but it is what some of them hear (or read in your case).

RW did not survive their ordeals in life by being weak, and these ordeals created some baggage that come with them when they enter your life.   It is part of them and you must not only recognize it, you must respect it.

Frankly, in your case I think a letter is a bad idea as it makes her feel as if she has no voice.  Also, having the airplane makes it seem as if your toys come first.  That is my impression.  The most important point is that she is still with you.  Keep all of your promises, and even exceed a few, and she will come around.  My Moscow woman finally understood it after 6 months, and she is very intelligent (and stubborn). 

[Lily]

I ll tell you,many RWs become very insulted if WM becomes to count the money 

They hate the *greediness*

HT,
1) This could be interpreted as implying she is like this.

"I just do not desire a person who wants everything and thinks that because one has money it must be spent. Or a person who thinks that because some one else has something we should have it also."
 

High Tech,

I think these quotes explain why Natalia was upset. From my observation, RW generally don't like men who are budget conscious. Zhena told pretty well about this attitude.

Can I tell my own thoughts about the letter? Excellent, simply excellent letter!

Not only it is well ordered and easy to read (despite probably the lines pointed by Sohkay, but anyway), but also it exhibits the best of a man.

From the content I can understand that the author have has enough spirit to go through the hard times without having came down, to be flexible enough to manage his own needs and the needs of his growing business, and is clever and smart to get the business flourish. That's the man who can really offer security!

However, I can tell that this attitude would hardly help in Russia. Here, talent and hard work are rarely rewarded. It may be a reason why it does not impress Natalia.

Further on, he does not hesitate to spend money of things that bring pleasure to life, and to spend handsomely. Airplans are not an unexpensive hobby. That would indicate to me that having that type of man by my side, most likely I will enjoy life! If he knows that some things make his woman happy, most likely he will assist her in getting them. Isn't it the happiness, is it? He is able to spend money in a reasonable manner, and most likely never go bankrupt. His woman should feel secure about him!

Security is very good displayed in HT's letter.

Actually, I read the quoted letter first, and only afterwards the HT's comments above....
I was looking forward to read about Natalia's enthusiastic reaction to that!

[DKMM]

Many AW don't like men who are budget concious either.  It doesn't matter how much money you got fellas, its how much you are willing to spend on her.  That's why you see some broke dudes with dumb trophy girls.

HT's issue isn't so much of a Russian women thing as much as it is a miscommunication. 

Wiz time will tell for sure... but my situations are far different than yours.