league and age gaps

[Turboguy]

Nice posts VWRW.  Very good points.

Mir,  You also had a very good post and I think brought up a very valid point.  Yes, I am starting this relationship with absolute confidence.    I can contrast that to my last marriage when I can recall standing behind the church waiting for the wedding ceremony to start and thinking about where I parked my car and if I should make a run for it.  In retrospect I should have.   I can't even remember my wedding night or honeymoon as being happy.  Although getting married that first time was a really stupid move, I did call that one right and I am quite sure I am calling this one right when I have not had a minutes hesitation or doubt.

Some seem to feel we are delusional for persuing this relationship.

I see much greater delusion on the other side.

In a welcome thread I posted a comment that more couples had found success through Elena's models than any other 6 agencies or sites put together.   I think it is a little delusional to read that comment as me crowing about my success with a much younger women.   Success covers a wide field.   Going to bed and waking up in the  morning is a success, a few people didn't today.  Crossing the street without getting run over is a success.  With an agency finding your woman is a success.  They have done their part.  What happens after is between the two of you.  I am surprised that someone did not read my agency comment as suggesting he look for a much younger woman.  Is that next?

Kuna read my reports about my previous fiancee and commented that it read much the same as my words with VWRW.   It is delusional to think otherwise.   What did he expect to read?   That we had nothing in common, I did not like Luda much and was entering the relationship with one finger on the ejection button.    

Yes, I admire VWRW's drive and focus.   With Luda she had ambition but no focus.   I have often thought if we are in a marriage or a relationship with someone who is unfaithful it is something we look at extra hard on the next.  If we are in a relationship where we have to deal with extreme jealousy when we look for the next it is something we pay particular attention to.  We get sensitised to certain issues by our very recent or very traumatic experiences.   Perhaps it plays a small part in my thoughts about VWRW on the issue.   Luda lived her life in fear of making a mistake and was afraid to do anything as a result.  Luda felt if she got married it would be a mistake and if she didn't it would be a mistake.  She sat there sure whatever she was doing was wrong and drove herself half crazy in the process.   With VWRW she decides what she wants and plows herself 110% into making it happen without ever wavering.   Frankly I think it is a very admirable quality and under any circumstances I think it is a quality that I would always respect and admire.  

Now that we have talked about delusion, let's talk about REAL delusion.   Some who feel like being critical quote the fact I searched for 11 years to find the right person as something that is a bad.   So here I am having found a person where we can spend the summer together 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and enjoy every second of it.   A relationship where we can sit and entertain ourselves just sitting and talking all day, where we enjoy the same things, have the same tempo to our life,  want the same things in our life, have common goals, have a wonderful romantic connection, think alike about most things.    One where we are well on our way to being soulmates and I could go on but I will move on.  Actually I probably have more in common with VWRW than anyone I have met in my life.   My search in the FSU may have gone on for 11 years but my search for the right woman has gone on much longer than that.   So anyway we have this relationship that I have just touched on and we have an age difference.   We have both accepted that and discussed the practical side of it and are fine with it.   To me, to think that you will have some chance of success in talking us out of what is the best relationship of my life because the age difference bothers YOU is real delusional.   Your suggestion is I throw her back and spend the next 11 years hunting for something that might be half as wonderful if I am lucky,  Hummm.  

[Turboguy]

One more note on the delusional part.   William comes on and posts that marriages with an age gap have a 100% failure rate.  Then he adds that any marriage with an AM and RW don't have a rate much better.   That being the case we must all be delusional anyway.  Maybe we should change the name of the site to "Dan's home of delusion and paranoia.   

[BC]

Nice posts VWRW.  Very good points.

I'm going to be doing a little flying the next few days and I am seriously considering stealing the barf bags. This double tag team luv mush is really getting to me.

Turb, I think you have been selling soggy sod blowers too long.

BTW, what was the topic?  ???

[ScottinCrimea]

The thing we have to keep in mind is that both TG and vwrw read each others' posts here.  They are going to write what they are sure the other wants to hear.  They will write only about how wonderful the other is, how perfect they are for each other, how sure they are that things will work, etc.  They will not express any doubts because they don't want the other to think there might be any.  With TG.s prior relationship, she wasn't reading his posts and he was I think more open with comments about her that weren't so rosy.

So realize, anything they write will be tempered by the knowledge that the other will read it and they will be less open about any doubts or negative aspects about the relationship or each other.

[William3rd]

so why post at all ad nausem? Is this like a form of elaborate foreplay? Or another brand of the same duplicity under a new package?

[Turboguy]

Scott, good point and I can only speak for myself, but if she were not reading I think I would be saying the exact same things. 

William,  Well I always thought foreplay was fun.  More fun than posting here actually.

[Kuna]

I actually hold great hope for Turbo and his woman's relationship success.  

They seem to be aiming at 5 years which may or may not be realistic. My guess is that it will last as long as it takes for the female to achieve all she has planned.

She is a proven liar and has demonstrated her venom right here in our community.  When the heat was turned up she miraculously recreated herself and attacked from a different angle... or in that case - from a different personality.

She's certainly not stupid... Her crude manipulation is well supported by her skill to morph from one personality to another...  and it's well spent on someone like Turbo... We all know his obsession with fresh meat defines everything he has done for the past 11 years - and some will admire him for it!  

Turbo of course not only knew she was lying, he actually perpetuated it to give her new personalty more validity. He joined in her lies and threw away any respect he may have hoped for in this community.  His desperation did him a great disservice here... just as it will for him in Beaver Falls.

Some may call him a fool but deep down I think he knows what his future holds... He just doesn't care because his lust for young girls is just more powerful than any need for reality.

Perhaps their dysfunction has less to do with the age difference and more to do with two people with dishonest intentions.  Maybe it's just coincidence that he has been obsessed with young girls for such a long time?

No one is trying to get them to reconsider their decisions.  They are the poster-children for everything that shouldn't be done when seeking a foreign wife and they seem to wear this badge with pride.

When they were muted for the lies and deception they committed I was surprised Dan permitted their re-entry so quickly and I've often wondered why.   ???

Perhaps discussion volume is a good thing for RWD (we've recently celebrated some commendable milestones) and having a real living freak show in RWD is obviously good for traffic.

My only concern is that newbies don't think this relationship is normal...  it's quite ABNORMAL.  Even other men with large age gaps think THIS incidence is beyond bizarre!

Turbo...  can you please start ignoring age related threads and resist justifying your obsession with young girls?  I'm pretty sure most of us are sick of hearing about you two!

so why post at all ad nausem? Is this like a form of elaborate foreplay? Or another brand of the same duplicity under a new package?

William... I personaly think they are scamming each other but the female is much smarter than the old man...  We are simply a part of the scam by giving them the opportunity to continually tickle each others confidence.

[vwrw]

One more note on the delusional part.   William comes on and posts that marriages with an age gap have a 100% failure rate.  Then he adds that any marriage with an AM and RW don't have a rate much better.   That being the case we must all be delusional anyway.  Maybe we should change the name of the site to "Dan's home of delusion and paranoia.   

really!

[William3rd]

No- what I posted was that the March/December cases dont skew the numbers that much because the failure rate is depressingly high. I also posted that the odds of success in huge age differences cannot be measured under existing methods. And this was stated tongue in cheek.

[vwrw]

From Kuna: I was surprised Dan permitted their re-entry so quickly and I've often wondered why.

vwrw: In order to educators could teach, there must be pupils at school.   I suppose Dan allowed us back due to lack of pupils on RWD.   

[Turboguy]

Actually what you posted William was basically that all of the +20 year marriages ended in Divorce, that the 20 year gaps had only a very few (a handful were your words) and that the 10 year gap marriages did not do much better and that overall only 10% of any of them made it to the 5 year mark.   My point in citing that was that it makes it sounds to me that we all must be deluded (but I am quite content to continue my delusion)

Turbo...  can you please start ignoring age related threads and resist justifying your obsession with young girls?  I'm pretty sure most of us are sick of hearing about you two!

Of course I can just as soon as you start ignoring threads about relationships with RW.  I seem to be accused of injecting myself into discussions about age differences just to justify our relationship.   My statement was that I get dragged in more than I inject myself.   

Go back to the start of this thread.   Rivcardo started the topic and was promptly jumped all over and criticized.   Page two I make my first post in this tread and simply state that there was nothing wrong with Rivcardo's comments and observations at which point jb calls me a pedophile.  (a 28 year old is hardly a child) Then KenC jumps in with his normal attacks and off we go.

Sorry Kuna, I am not going to sit it out, it is too much fun.

[William3rd]

That is not quite what I said. You forgot about the age gap deaths in my posts- lots of deaths in those age gap numbers and the dead ones were the ones that looked like the biggest successes. So, in terms of till death they do part, they were all success stories. I also said that I do not follow up on every case. This is not intended to be scientific.

The real question is and was what the measuring mark was to be. Engagements to 5 years of marriage- about 15% perhaps- especially if large romance tour products. Do we take each individual man who goes on a tour as the standard- you are already at 50% with one failure under your belt so you fall under the EC statement.

There is nothing in my posts that you can draw on, TG, to support your position.
I had a 22 year age gap as was previously mentioned-non-agency, cultural understanding, ability to communicate beyond grunts and gestures.

Go your own way, TG. There is nothing for you to defend-on this board or on all the other boards that you are currently posting on. If you would be less inclined to glorify the anomaly, then others would not be inclined to ridicule you and point out that you are playing Russian roulette with an automatic.

[Turboguy]

My point William was just that according to your statistics we are all in a high risk proposition.  Your numbers seem to have improved since you posted them before but that is not important. 

I will not argue a bit that the chances are far better if someone finds a woman who speaks English, if he takes time to get to know her and at least makes multiple trips, if the age gap is not significant and if he did not meet her through a large agency social.   I think the biggest improvement in the odds comes if he joins a forum such as RWD where he can compare notes with a large number of people involved in all stages of the process. 

As far as measuring marks I see that as fairly meaningless.   If someone meets a woman on his first trip, gets married, has a miserable marriage for 6 years and gets divorced is that a success because he made it 5 years.  Why 5 years?  Why not 3, 7 or 10.  Is Edison a failure because he failed all those thousands of times to produce a light bulb or a success because he finally made one that worked.   

If you count trips to the FSU vs successful marrages I am still batting zero.  (for now)  The fact is I had some interesting trips, got to watch a major change in the world as Russia struggled to come out of the funk of Communism, met some great people (and more than my share of scam artists).  I got to see many parts of the world most American's did not see, got an intimate look at a culture and life far different than at home and had some amazing experiences.  I have always believed that life is a journey and this part of my journey to me was an amazing experience and a success even before I met VWRW. 

Some say success is a 5 year marriage.   Think about this a little.  What is the goal of someone starting off on their first trip to the FSU?  My answer would be to meet a wonderful woman in the FSU and marry her.  That being the case would not getting her to America and marrying her be the success and the 5 year mark just an arbitrary measuring point of the degree of that success?   In reality if life is a journey I would have to think of success as a destination.   Regardless I am enjoying the journey and I have met a wonderful woman and any measuring points are so far in the future it strikes me as meaningless to talk about them now.   Luda was a light bulb that did not work (darn that is an apt description)   I think it is a little to premature to call this one a failure before we even throw the switch.   (Humm, I wonder if Edison's first light bulb lasted 5 years before it burned out?)

[BC]

From I/O: VWRW would do better to expound her knowledge of various areas of Russia that she knows about and perhaps offer some advice in this area to the freshmen……
… post about things which might be of practical help to freshmen and you will regain some respect..
 
vwrw: I/O, I have come here NOT for giving advice to freshmen and much more less for regaining some respect. I come to learn! The problem is that when someone tells his viewpoints on a subject I am interested in, I do not accept them without questioning the reasoning behind it.

VW, I've seen the 'I'm here to learn' statement from both you and TG a couple times now.. It really does not make sense..

..-and it kept nagging me.

You are committed to each other will marry and that's that.. what in the heck is there for you two to learn about age gaps?  In the end is something you two are going to have to deal with.

Picture a couple buying a car, the sales pitch stops as soon as you drive it off the lot.  The time to investigate and learn about damn car is before you sign the check, not after.

It seems kinda senseless sitting around discussing all possible aspects, hypotheticals, angles, etc of things that may come to bear or not as it pertains to your relationship, really a lot of wasted energy on all sides.  If you hit a rough spot down the line and can't resolve it yourselves maybe that is the time to 'learn', maybe not here but with a good marriage counsellor.

In the meantime, I'll suggest for the third and last time in the last year or so, that it is high time to take your relationship off-forum completely. Surely you don't need tens and maybe (in the future) hundreds of others to follow and criticize every twist and turn of your relationship.. or?

In very simplistic terms: Don't bogart these threads! 

[Turboguy]

BC, Since VRWR is probably sound asleep now I will answer your post. 

We have both said we were here to learn.  Neither of us have said we were here for advice particularly about how to live our lives or the decisons we have made. 

The only questions I recall either of us asking were about the vague innuendo's some of those in an age gap relationship who had not yet reached an advanced age had experienced.  It was worst than pulling hen's teeth to get an answer but finally thanks to some excellent posts by KenC we did get some good info although in all honesty I think much of it was more related to a RW than an age gap it was still excellent information.   I do appreciate KenC's openness and contributions. 

I do agree that being too open on someplace like RWD does expose you to a lot of negativity.  You rarely see anyone post anything personal without someone making an adverse comment and we are extra vulnerable because our situation is somewhat unique.   I think your suggestion is a good one.  I am already sharing less than I used to for example you will find a trip report on Thailand and Egypt but not much more than a casual mention that we spent our summer together in Grenada.  We both enjoy RWD but the same discussions over and over about age are starting to loose their appeal.  Thanks for the suggestion.  It was a good one. 

[BC]

I do agree that being too open on someplace like RWD does expose you to a lot of negativity.  You rarely see anyone post anything personal without someone making an adverse comment and we are extra vulnerable because our situation is somewhat unique. 

TG,

I refer you to a very recent, quite 'hit the spot' post by jb on this subject.  Surely you read it..  Unfortunately I did not see a response.  Maybe you have jb on ignore?  If so it is well worth a 'peek'.

It may just be me, but you seem to have a habit of skipping very eloquent responses, jumping back in the conversation a few posts later as if nothing happened, often repeating the same critique.

For your reference: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=5662.msg102663#msg102663

[Turboguy]

Yes, BC, I did read that.  I intended to comment and just got too involved with other things.   I will retract my statement that jb as one of the individuals I mentioned had not shared much about his life.  Evidentally he has but before I became involved with forums. 

[BC]

Yes, BC, I did read that.  I intended to comment and just got too involved with other things.   I will retract my statement that jb as one of the individuals I mentioned had not shared much about his life.  Evidentally he has but before I became involved with forums. 

I sense your reservation. Since jb was not mentioned in your post that he responded to I don't believe retraction is necessary. Care to point a finger or are we talking gross generalization here?

Sorry folks for the OT.

[Turboguy]

Well, I can't say that I had one or more particular people in mind, perhaps I did but it is not that important an observation anyway.   It does seem often though that those who are most critical are those who share the least about their own personal lives.  Maybe they are just smarter than some of us.  To be honest it is more of an impression than something I studied in enough detail to quote as a fact.

[KenC]

OK.  OK.  I get the point.  I very much appreciate your (other) cautionary comments - insight that is useful and needed.  But the "bad Turbo" stuff is just getting rude, and is not necessary to make your point.

sunandsail,
The comment you quoted was directed mainly at Photoguy and you simply do not know the history there.  As someone else told, he came asking for advice, ignored all of it and did things his way.  Still not a big deal to me.  But when Photoguy began advising others to follow his foolish ways whith threads likes :Photo Guy's assortment of knowledge ..and random thoughts he became harmful to the newbies and therefore was challenged.  That thread was extremely volital with over 350 posts and almost 11,000 reads!  BTW and just FYI, his fiancee returned to Ukraine within the 90 day limit, so maybe "his way" was not the correct course of action after all.
KenC

[BC]

Well, I can't say that I had one or more particular people in mind, perhaps I did but it is not that important an observation anyway.   It does seem often though that those who are most critical are those who share the least about their own personal lives.  Maybe they are just smarter than some of us.  To be honest it is more of an impression than something I studied in enough detail to quote as a fact.

I'm really chuckling over that one TG, sort of a 'full circle' deal.. but I will leave it at that to break the cycle.  The obvious requires no clarification.  Stay away from witness stands.

[Photo Guy]

sunandsail,
The comment you quoted was directed mainly at Photoguy and you simply do not know the history there.  As someone else told, he came asking for advice, ignored all of it and did things his way.  Still not a big deal to me.  But when Photoguy began advising others to follow his foolish ways whith threads likes :Photo Guy's assortment of knowledge ..and random thoughts he became harmful to the newbies and therefore was challenged.  That thread was extremely volital with over 350 posts and almost 1,100 reads!  BTW and just FYI, his fiancee returned to Ukraine within the 90 day limit, so maybe "his way" was not the correct course of action after all.
KenC

KenC,
What exactly were the 'harmful' ideas? An unconventional course can work for some and not for others. It depends on the individuals involved. I stand by the idea that knowing the inner world of your woman is essential and I'll still promote the idea that some women can be figured out in a short amount of time and others remain permanently opague.

I consider my 90 days with her, to have been an interesting long intimate 'date'.
An adventure with a lovable woman. She returned to Ukraine for very valid reasons.
Do you think it is easy for a person to abandon her dependent father, when he calls
her home to maintain his own survival? Do you think that's an easy situation
for her to deal with? As a trained nurse, Larisa fell into a rut as his
personal caretaker. In the USA, many of us are not required to
take care of our parents on a daily basis. Instead, we have
nursing homes and our aging parents live far away in a
different city. In the FSU, parents depend more on their
only child for support and care.

How did her return contradict my advice here at RWD?

Her return had little to do with her lack of language skills...
Her return had little to do with the quality of our relationship. -doug

[ScottinCrimea]

PG, I wasn't even here when all of this happened, but just reading this last post tells me all I need to know.  KenC is right, the delusions are still there.

BTW, when was the K-1 intended as a "long intimate date"?  That attitude alone speaks volumes.

[jb]

No worries, BC... I do not expect either T/G or P/G to read my posts.  I only read theirs for the entertainment value.

[BC]

How did her return contradict my advice here at RWD?

Her return had little to do with her lack of language skills...
Her return had little to do with the quality of our relationship. -doug

Photo,

This must be my 'crass' day.

You are obviously still in love with her, no problem there.

If so, why aren't you with her?

Did all your virtuous, idealistic theories get overridden by something as simple as the relationship being 'not practical'?

Why not practice what you preach and get on the next flight with all your worldly belongings in 2 pieces of checked luggage not to exceed 50 lbs?  After all that is what you expected of her..

With the circumstances as you describe, I would consider your Knight's armour tarnished, if not rusted through.

Something is not quite right.