Just another example of why I am no longer interested in AW ...

[Gator]

USCFAN,

I realize that some spirited posts by others may have distracted you; however, Rose was being sarcastic and not looking for an answer.

[Kvinna]

This is just a clip from an ad I saw on Craig's list ... it just seems to 'sum up' the whole attitude I've run across in AW these days. Maybe you'll agree ...

Note: I’m 175 lbs, 5’ 5” And YES the average American woman weighs OVER 175 these days… (So I’m in the LOWER 50 percentile…) Geez, some guys need to get over the superficial need for a size 2!!!!

I personally don't need a 'size 2' ... but how about working your way down to a size 8-10 at least?

Gawd ... I gotta get back to Ukraine 

so you are only after body, dude?

[Gator]

Mspanky,

The RM's name was PrincetonLion.  He usually had something clever and amusing to say, having some fun in a sarcastic way with RW and AM.  

His problem with RW was their attitude, not their weight.  The fact that many AM were ignoring AW amused him, freeing more AW for him.  He felt very happy to give the "neglected AW" some attention.  

The grass was greener to him in the USA only because he resided there.  I am sure that if he were in Russia, he would be bedding RW.  

[ScottinCrimea]

Mishenka,  I'm sitting her shaking my head at the degree of tunnel vision that you have developed.  You say you draw conclusions based on your experiences as a marriage and family counselor and the prople that you counseled.  Why do you think they were in counseling in the first place?     The vast majority of people in the US never go to counseling so you're drawing conclusions based on a very limited and self selecting population.  Heck, if I were to think the same way I could conclude, based on my experiences as an ER physician that a very high percentage of people use drugs, are suicidal, can't use a can opener without slicing themselves up or drive a car without rolling it.  I can only imagine what crzybear's view of the world would be if all his conclusions were based on the population that he sees.

Statistics on abuse, like any statistics, tend to be biased toward the aims of the group doing the numbers.  Typically those with a financial, political, etc. interst in the numbers looking a certain way will either intentionally or unintentionally manipulate them to appear how they want them.  If they don't like the numbers, they just don't publish the statistics.  How many times have you seen any group publish statistics that went against their agenda and then said, "Wow! it looks like we were wrong!"?

[Mishenka]

Scott how many years experiece do you have on this subject?  limited at best, I can tell by your posts you choose to live in denial of a serious crimes against women and children and a small percentage of men.  Like an ostrich you burry your head in the sand and don't want to look at reality. Shake you head out of that sand, its 2007 and it's time to wake up! Stats speak for themselves, Women in pain speak louder. For the % of women, children and 15% of abused men who can't speak, others will speak for them.

[USCFAN]

USCFAN,

I realize that some spirited posts by others may have distracted you; however, Rose was being sarcastic and not looking for an answer.

Gator -

I don't know this person and was just trying to be polite and answer the questions she posted. Without a 'smilie' or some kind of *wink*, <grin>, or something like that, how was I to know she was being sarcastic?

 

[USCFAN]

so you are only after body, dude?

... nice to see that you have read the WHOLE thread ... 

[Mishenka]

Scanning the last posts about the increasing number of reported assaults by AW and combining it with the title of the thread one might to the conclusion that AM don't like AW because AW report assaults, while RW do not.

Excellent observation Rose,  here is some serious info to back up your conclusion that RW do not REPORT such crimes and WHY.

Reality- Men, Chew on this a while: Serious stuff.

  http://www.usatoday.com/n...-06-13-russia-abuse_x.htm

KLIN, Russia — Olga Torgunakova lived for two months in the Lyubava Center, a women's shelter with four beds in this city 50 miles northwest of Moscow.
Now, Torgunakova, 23, and her 4-year-old son have moved in with her mother, invalid father and two younger sisters. Torgunakova, who says her husband frequently humiliated and threatened her during their five-year marriage, has obtained a divorce with the shelter's help.

She says the psychological abuse turned into beatings over the past year. "One night, he kneeled on my breasts and tried to strangle me and made it difficult for me to breathe. I still have pains from that," she says.

That's when Torgunakova called the shelter's hotline, says Natalia Mikheeva, director of the Lyubava Center.

"If he beats you, he loves you," goes a centuries-old Russian saying. A network of groups battling domestic abuse is trying to change that kind of thinking. A campaign in 80 cities repeats the adage on posters and asks, "Is that love?" The campaign, which includes public service announcements on TV and radio, was spearheaded by the National Center for the Prevention of Violence in Russia (ANNA) and conducted by the network of regional groups.

ANNA hosted Russia's first international conference on domestic violence in March. The gathering, sponsored by the Ford Foundation, focused on the need for legal changes and highlighted examples where Russian localities have addressed the issue. "We heard from activists that in Tumen, the police and the shelter work closely together. In Yekaterinburg, the crisis center has a desk in the police station," says ANNA's director, Marina Pisklakova.

Abuse statistics

The Russian home can be a brutal place for women. Domestic violence kills one woman every 40 to 60 minutes in Russia, says an Amnesty International report released in December.

In the United Kingdom, by comparison, about two women are killed by their partners every week, says Friederike Behr, one of the authors of the Amnesty International report.

Russian government statistics show that an average of 14,000 women a year were killed by their husbands from 1995 to 2000. In the USA, which has twice Russia's population, about 1,200 women are killed annually by their partners.

Russia has few crisis centers and few places for abused women to seek counseling and legal advice. The shelter that provided haven for Torgunakova is among 10 women's shelters in all of Russia, according to ANNA.

There are no articles in Russia's criminal law that apply specifically to domestic violence. Acts of violence against women in the family, if they are dealt with at all, are treated like any violent crime. Women also are reluctant to seek prosecution. "Crimes of domestic violence remain hidden because 80% of those who make a complaint take it back," says Alexander Dementiev, deputy judge of Sverdlosk region, 850 miles east of Moscow. "Changes in legislation are needed."

Repeated acts of violence against the same person go unexplained, according to the Amnesty International report. It calls for the enactment of laws to protect women, ensure access to shelters and fund programs that teach lawyers and judges about domestic violence. "There's no notice anywhere that there is the same victim again and again in some of these criminal cases," Behr says. "If you are living in the apartment with your assailant, the law does not encourage you to bring a complaint at all."

Pisklakova says domestic violence seemed to worsen in the 1990s with the social and economic upheaval caused by the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Today, according to the government, unemployment is a relatively low 7%, and living standards generally are rising. But 80% of Russians earn poverty-level wages, and several million are homeless, Moscow economist Nikolai Shmelev wrote in a 2005 article in a Russian political journal.

The social and economic situation for women in Russia has worsened, according to a 2004 report commissioned by the government. "The problem with domestic violence is more acute and needs active intervention, including official statistics. Steps should be taken to bring security to the family and assistance to victims of violence," said the report by Vladimir Lukin, ombudsman of the Russian Federation.

Options limited

Battered women often have nowhere to go because of limited economic and housing options.

"In the U.S., if a woman is assaulted, someone has to come out in handcuffs," says Daniel Glode, country director for the American Bar Association's Central European and Eurasian Law Initiative in Moscow. "She gets a restraining order, and he has to get out of the house. Here, even after a divorce, people still live together for economic reasons."

Russia's high rate of alcoholism also has contributed to domestic abuse. From 1989 to 2000, alcohol consumption in Russia increased 45%, according to the World Health Organization. Irina Shurygina, a sociologist at the Sociological Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences, says a survey in 2003 showed two-thirds of women beaten by their husbands said their spouses became aggressive after drinking.

The European Commission wants one shelter for every 10,000 people. Yet in the capital, a city of 12 million, there is not a single women's shelter. Moscow has three daytime-only crisis centers, but unlike shelters, which provide a place for women to stay, crisis centers offer only counseling and legal advice.

Women's rights advocates and Russian lawmakers have discussed more than 40 versions of legislation to put domestic violence laws on the books. None would have criminalized domestic abuse. Instead, they would have made social services more available to victims.

"There are a lot of cases of women being murdered. We don't have protection or restraining orders," says Larisa Ponarina, deputy director of ANNA.
 

[Misha]

Gabaub

I am not taking anyone's side in this argument but just putting things in context. Looks like you conveniently omitted some parts of the publication that did not suit the argument you wanted to make. Here is that part:

'Domestic violence can be defined as a pattern of abusive behavior in any relationship that is used by one partner to gain or maintain power and control over another intimate partner.

No, it does not negate my point as there is still much leeway in how you define abuse and how you interpret the results. Let's look at the issue of power: I would say that there are power games in most relationships and the question remains as to how you define pattern. Is it every day? Every week? Every month? Every year?   

The problem that I have is that the word "abuse" is lobbed about and it is not defined. I would have no problem if they defined the term and said: 25% of women are abused and this abuse goes from being called names by their husbands once a month to being physically beaten every day. This would be an honest assessment. However, when you simply say "25% of women are abused" then most will assume that they are talking about the worst forms of abuse, and that leads to confusion.

This is the confusion that I see between Michael (Misha) and the others. Michael is using data that includes all forms of abuse from the minor to the major, while the others are citing data that deals with the major forms of abuse.

Is there a distinction between minor and major forms of abuse? I would say yes. If a woman calls 911 and says that her husband is abusing her because he calls her names every day and thus is debasing her self-esteem and he is doing thing to achieve power over her, I doubt they will send the squad cars screaming out to her rescue. It may be grounds for a divorce, but I doubt that any jury would convict the husband of a crime.

Is spousal abuse a problem? Yes. But we have to be clear as to what exactly we mean by abuse.

[ScottinCrimea]

Mishenka,  Can't you have a discussion without going into a defensive attack position?  Is this your example of neutral open-minded counseling?

I've spent enough time in psych facilities, ER's, etc. to have some experience with this.  In fact I provided medical services for a battered women's center for three years. I certainly don't bury my head in the sand but I also don't assume that my experiences in these settings can be carried over to the general population.  You seem to be on a crusade and everyone who doesn't conform to your opinion is an infidel who must be either converted or exterminated.

No, stat's don't speak for themselves, they speak for those who created them.

Excellent post gabaub

[Admin]

so you are only after body, dude?

Kvinna,

Let me add my view of this issue.

I have played organized sports since I was very young. At a time I played at a pretty high level. My son is ranked in the top 100 tennis players for his age in the country. In sports, there is a great deal of formal literature dealing with the mental aspects of high-performance teams and results. One of the most important factors is (reducing it to a VERY simple characteristic), the individual's view of their self-efficacy, and their individual self-esteem.

The reason I bring this up is that sports are often a very direct metaphor for life. A person who has a high self-esteem normally is more successful and happier in life. Conversely, the person who suffers from low self-esteem is often unhappy, and enjoys much less success than the norm.

Body style plays a very large factor in self-esteem. Typically, the person with low self-esteem takes little pride in their appearance and is not willing to do the work necessary to maintain their physical shape. I believe there is a direct corollary between a person who is overweight and low self-esteem. Not always, of course, there are other reasons for obesity - but a person who is overweight would be a person who I would think as having a high probability of low self-esteem.

For a life partner, I want to be (and I am) together with someone who takes pride in themselves and who has a high self-esteem and a 'high-performance' personality. I also want to be able to look at my partner and feel pleased at what I see.

Those are my preferences - and I cannot fault anyone for expressing their preferences. If those preferences REJECT someone who is overweight - that is probably a good thing. If they know themselves well enough to know they would be dissatisfied with someone who is overweight - then they should not settle for anyone less than the person they would be satisfied with - and that includes the physical appearance, in addition to any other characteristics which they may value.

Just my take on things.

- Dan

[USCFAN]

Scott - Very well said 


Dan -  Excellent post

[Mishenka]

No, it does not negate my point as there is still much leeway in how you define abuse and how you interpret the results.

Is spousal abuse a problem? Yes. But we have to be clear as to what exactly we mean by abuse.

Great Post gabub, I never intended to hijack this thread, but since you all are still posting, it seems to be gaining interest. I started another thread outside this one.  Lets define abuse this way: Even tho much of this data is out of date it is still alarming. The number at the end of each is linked to a reference below.

Abuse In America
4 million American women experience a serious assault by a partner during an average 12-month period. 1

On the average, more than three women are murdered by their husbands or boyfriends every day.2  (In Russian one woman is murdered by hiusband every 40 to 60 seconds)

92% of women say that reducing domestic violence and sexual assault should be at the top of any formal efforts taken on behalf of women today.3

1 out of 3 women around the world has been beaten, coerced into sex or otherwise abused during her lifetime.4

1 in 5 female high school students reports being physically and/or sexually abused by a dating partner. Abused girls are significantly more likely to get involved in other risky behaviors. They are 4 to 6 times more likely to get pregnant and 8 to 9 times more likely to have tried to commit suicide.4

1 in 3 teens report knowing a friend or peer who has been hit, punched, slapped, choked or physically hurt by his/her partner.5

Women of all races are equally vulnerable to violence by an intimate partner.6

37% of all women who sought care in hospital emergency rooms for violence–related injuries were injured by a current or former spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend.7

Some estimates say almost 1 million incidents of violence occur against a current or former spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend per year. 8

For 30% of women who experience abuse, the first incident occurs during pregnancy.9

As many as 324,000 women each year experience intimate partner violence during their pregnancy. 10

Violence against women costs companies $72.8 million annually due to lost productivity.11

74% of employed battered women were harassed by their partner while they were at work.12

Ninety-four percent of the offenders in murder-suicides were male.13

Seventy-four percent of all murder-suicides involved an intimate partner(spouse, common-law spouse, ex-spouse, or boyfriend/girlfriend). Of these, 96 percent were females killed by their intimate partners.13

Most murder-suicides with three or more victims involved a "family annihilator" -- a subcategory of intimate partner murder-suicide.Family annihilators are murderers who kill not only their wives/girlfriends and children, but often other family members as well,before killing themselves.13

Seventy-five percent of murder-suicides occurred in the home.13


Here are the references to back up this data.

1. Issues and Dilemmas in Family Violence: Report of the American Psychological Association Presidential Task Force on Violence and the Family . Washington, DC: American Psychological Association; 1996.

2. Bureau of Justice Statistics Crime Data Brief, Intimate Partner Violence, 1993-2001, February 2003.

3. Progress & Perils: New Agenda for Women, Center for the Advancement of Women. June 2003.

4. Silverman, Jay G., Raj, Anita, and Clements, Karen. “Dating Violence Against Adolescent Girls and Associated Substance Use, Unhealthy Weight Control, Sexual Risk Behavior, Pregnancy, and Suicidality.” Pediatrics, August 2004.

5. Teenage Research Unlimited. Findings from study commissioned by Liz Claiborne Inc. to investigate the level of and attitudes towards dating abuse among American teenagers aged 13 to 18 [online] 2005 Feb [cited 2006 Mar 20]. Available from: URL: www.loveisnotabuse.com/statistics_abuseandteens.htm

6. US. Department of Justice, Violence-Related Injuries Treated in Hospital Emergency Departments, August 1997.

7. US Department of Justice.

8. The Commonwealth Fund, Health Concerns Across a Woman’s Lifespan: 1998 Survey of Women’s Health, May 1999.

9. Helton et al 1987.

10. Gazmararian JA, Petersen R, Spitz AM, Goodwin MM, Saltzman LE, Marks JS. “Violence and reproductive health; current knowledge and future research directions.” Maternal and Child Health Journal 2000; 4(2):79-84.

11. Costs of Intimate Partner Violence Against Women in the United States. 2003. Center for disease Control and Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control. Atlanta, GA/

12. Family Violence Prevention Fund. 1998. The Workplace Guide for Employer, Unions, and Advocates, San Francisco, CA.

13. Violence Policy Center (VPC), American Roulette: Murder-Suicide in the United States, April 2006.

[ScottinCrimea]

Michael the Conqueror

[Mishenka]

Michael the Conqueror

Nice photo Scott, can you find something more recent?  Like the one at the end of the Metro tunnel in North East Moscow. Done in stained glass, is 20 feet high and shows my best side. Ha Ha Not sure if that's Gabriel or Michael or George, but its an angel or saint of somekind. The artwork in the Metro tunnels are stunning,, More like a museum'

Rather not hijack this thread any longer, take it here:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=6150.new#new

[Misha]

Great Post gabub, I never intended to hijack this thread, but since you all are still posting, it seems to be gaining interest. I started another thread outside this one.  Lets define abuse this way: Even tho much of this data is out of date it is still alarming. The number at the end of each is linked to a reference below.

Abuse In America


1 in 3 teens report knowing a friend or peer who has been hit, punched, slapped, choked or physically hurt by his/her partner.5

5. Teenage Research Unlimited. Findings from study commissioned by Liz Claiborne Inc. to investigate the level of and attitudes towards dating abuse among American teenagers aged 13 to 18 [online] 2005 Feb [cited 2006 Mar 20]. Available from: URL: www.loveisnotabuse.com/statistics_abuseandteens.htm

I won't address all the stats you mention, but I must caution as to the danger of statistics and how they can be used to create alarm. I will dissect the "1 in 3 teens" statement. It sounds really, really bad and it makes it seem that 1 in 3 teens is being hit, punched, slapped, choked or physically hurt by his/her partner. Yet, what it says is that 1 in 3 teens has heard of someone being hurt. The question I have: how many friends and peers would a teen have?

A peer could potentially be anybody in their school. A teen could potentially know through gossip of the activities of 100-500 people. And, given that you had to find three teens before one would say they had heard of someone being hit, punched, slapped, choked or physically hit, then it reality the numbers of teens being abused on a date could be quite low: 1 in 100, 1 in 300 or 1 in 1500 depending on how big a given teen's "peer" network is. So why do they cite the "1 in 3"? Because it is a much bigger proportion that makes you think that you have an epidemic of violence among teens where 1 in 3 teens might be physically attacked on a date. If you were to say that 1 in 1500 teens (I am making up a number here) were physically attacked, then this would not create the same sense of panic and outrage.

[Mishenka]

True, different studies say different things,  1 in 3,  one in 5,  what is it really?  How many are included in the study? 500? 1000?  so we have to look at all of the studies done and take some average. In any case,  people talk and gossip more now than ever before and do tend to inflate things.  So, with that I say, if even one case is reported its too many. Police and hospital reports go unchallenged.  they are as accurate as we can get.  I'm glad people are not as afraid to stand up and report it as in times past.

Misha

[Kuna]

Misha,

You probably don't realise it at the moment but perhaps you need to take a little break and let the effects of your recent relationship breakup pass.

I've been reading this thread and seeing the increasingly strange and passionate assertions, and every now and again I remind myself what you've been through lately.

Perhaps you can't understand why RW ("who are almost all abused by RW - AND AM when they come to the US") can't accept or desire a relationship with a man that doesn't abuse (AND sings them songs and dances for them).

The pain you're feeling from your failed relationship is probably effecting your judgment at the moment.  Take a breath and let the dust settle...  You're not ready to continue your "search" yet.

Kuna

[Misha]

True, different studies say different things,  1 in 3,  one in 5,  what is it really?  How many are included in the study? 500? 1000?  so we have to look at all of the studies done and take some average. In any case,  people talk and gossip more now than ever before and do tend to inflate things.  So, with that I say, if even one case is reported its too many. Police and hospital reports go unchallenged.  they are as accurate as we can get.  I'm glad people are not as afraid to stand up and report it as in times past.

Misha

Misha, don't you get it, sometimes bad research is bad research! Yes, numbers make a difference. A 1 in 3 proportion is a lot different that a 1 in 30 or a 1 in 300. As the saying that is sometimes wrongly attributed to Mark Twain goes: "There are lies, damn lies - and statistics."

Misha, here is a word of advice: learn to be more critical in your thinking. Do not take everything at face value and this goes for both research and women. It will help you from being burned in the future.

[BillyB]

'Domestic violence can be defined as a pattern of abusive behavior in any relationship that is used by one partner to gain or maintain power and control over another intimate partner.

Please note the important thing is a pattern of abusive behaviour and not an isolated act like one shove in 20 year relationship or some name calling in a heated argument now and then.
Most men and women will drink alcohol but the majority will not be considered alcoholic (an analogy)

Mir, in America, DV can be based off of one act. Here's a link showing what a prosecutor thinks is DV based off interpretation of law. Something such as fearingphysical harm is DV and can get a man convicted in court. You don't live here but this is very real, if a woman calls 911 and says she's afraid of her husband, the police will come and take him to jail based on her word. With the simple fact a woman has feared a man, she is qualified to state on a survey she was a victim of DV based on interpretation of the law.

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/domviol/what.htm

As far as physical appearance go, it's very wrong to tell people to engage in relationships with people they aren't attracted to.

[timothe]

Misha, don't you get it, sometimes bad research is bad research! Yes, numbers make a difference. A 1 in 3 proportion is a lot different that a 1 in 30 or a 1 in 300. As the saying that is sometimes wrongly attributed to Mark Twain goes: "There are lies, damn lies - and statistics."

Misha, here is a word of advice: learn to be more critical in your thinking. Do not take everything at face value and this goes for both research and women. It will help you from being burned in the future.

 

Actually, I think the part Michael doesn't get is this:

"There are sometimes more important things in life than being right."

Michael,

The vigor and passion with which you have defended this issue says mountains about the kind of person you are.  One could say that you are very passionate about abuse, but if that were really true, you probably wouldn't have ever made it to RWD in the first place.  (a. because you should be too damn busy evangelizing the cause.  b. because you would have never put yourself in a position to get emotionally attached to an abused Russian person.  c.  because you would have some basic understanding that adult people don't change their minds that easily about subjects they aren't passionate about.)

So I've concluded that you are not really all that passionate about this issue. In the overall scope of life, it just isn't that important.  So why did you carry this argument along so deeply and passionately?  Do you really think the people who participate in this board are that stupid?  or that wrong?  And that only you...of all the people on the internet, can help these poor stupid people?  Are you that arrogant?  I don't think you are.

Michael, I think you are crying out for respect and love from this board.  (I watch Dr. Phil, too, can't you tell?   )    But it's not working because there is so much self in everything you post.  Way too much.  You come across as extremely self-important and all-knowing but at the same time, it is also apparent that you are people-pleasing overly sensitive about your feelings.

I've been there.

Over a period of years, I became right-sized by turning my life over to God and by trying to help others in my daily life.  Though not a saint by any means, I have much more esteem and much less need for acceptance outside myself.  When I was where you are at now, there was no possible way I could have a successful relationship because I would sabotage every relationship from the inside out.  I would inflict my ego and my insecurities on others and they would retaliate...often by leaving.  I started each day playing scenarios in my head about specific conversations I was going to have and I ended each day beating myself because I didn't say or do something just right and the other person didn't understand.

The answer in life for you is not for you to apply your will more forcefully.   It is not to be more gracious or pleasant or demanding or manly so you can get what you want out of the situation.  Unless or until you get out of your own way, your relationship problems will continue. 

Good luck to you.   

[groovlstk]

I for one would like to see these arguments about domestic violence statistics confined to their own specific threads. It's tiresome to see so many useful discussions turn useless when these pointless arguments arise time and again.

[USCFAN]

I for one would like to see these arguments about domestic violence statistics confined to their own specific threads. It's tiresome to see so many useful discussions turn useless when these pointless arguments arise time and again.

 

[Kvinna]

... nice to see that you have read the WHOLE thread ... 

why should I? your first post is enough to understand with who we deal... all next statements are only mental game that in Russia called "Я не такая, я жду трамвая"

[Lit_1nce]

True domestic violence, and child abuse are awful, and serious problems.

That being said, a "report" of abuse is just that.. Statistics of actual charges filed, and conviction numbers, probably more accurately gauge the true extent of the problem. Those that have been ordered by a judge to go to counseling, have probably had some type of charges filed against them.. but a "report of abuse" could be anything from a nosy neighbor reporting a mom yelling at their kid, to a teacher not liking the way a kid is dressed at school.. or a doctor suspicious of a broken bone.

- - -

back on topic..

I've recently met an AW that I am interested in, and she seems to be returning the interest. She isn't a femi-nazi, but there are shadows of it.. and yes I know I am being evaluated by her friends before we even actually go out. I'm going to let this run it's course, and see where it goes, but I suspect I'll probably be back searching the FSU for all the reasons we all do.. a better experience  (I have experienced both, and that's just my opinion)