So confused,, Ok experienced one's, I need advice!

[Mishenka]

Thanks guys :-) nice to have your support.

Misha

[Gator]

BillyB,

I guess it has been a long time since you have seen your fiancee.  You sure have grown a fine set of horns - maybe a 10-pointer!    

[ScottinCrimea]

I was just thinking...suppose you date her girlfriend and you get serious and decide to marry.  Just imagine the jealousies and suspicions that would be involved, especially if either of you kept in contact with your former girlfriend.  I agree, as much as it hurts, better to let it go.  Her needs aren't the same as yours.  She only wants you around on her terms and that won't be enough for you and just prolongs the pain.

[Mishenka]

A few of you seem to think Sex was an issue. It wasn't.  I never mention sex in any post.  We were affectionate but not that attached.  Take her word as truth,  she thought it though and came to a decision. I respect that she means what she says.   We were friends first.  We remain friends now. I see no reason to cut off All contact between 2 good close friends who have built trust together. If she calls I will answer. Cutting her off would break trust and negate everything I gave her, making me a hypocrite.  She has not hurt me that deeply. I feel free now. 

I was confused and asked for advice. Originally I posted to get advice from the women here to learn about Russian women and their culture. Some of those answers came in Pm's.   I have made the needed adjustment in my heart to the friendship level.  Now I am free to date others.  I choose not to date her best friend Lena,  I think this would cause problems as Scott says.  I'm really not interested in her romantically.  She is not my type. I'm not sure Tanya was either.  I won't call her.  If she calls me or not is her prerogative.  I've let go of the idea of any romance. 

Misha

[BillyB]

A few of you seem to think Sex was an issue. It wasn't.  I never mention sex in any post.  We were affectionate but not that attached.  Take her word as truth,  she thought it though and came to a decision. I respect that she means what she says.   

Many RW have no problem telling little white lies, especially if it will help your ego from being destroyed. The woman has written you letters of sexual fantasies she'd like to have with you. Fantastic sex with a man she's attracted to is important to her. Do not underestimate physical attraction. If you light a woman's fire, she will do almost anything for you and forgive some issues she may have with your personality and character.

Gator, it's more like bull horns growing. Based on another man's timeframe who got his Tashkent based fiancee here on a k-1 in a short time, natalia and I were going to wait for k-1 approval instead of me going back since my work load is huge in the non-rainy season but now it's slowing down and I need to think about what's happening at USCIS and if things aren't going to pick up soon I'll probably make a trip in a different country with her after she finishes her drivers education. I will go to Tashkent once more to pick her up once she has visa in hand and say goodbye to all her family. According to the trend on visajourney, my NOA2 should arrive any day now. Once that happens, the interview could happen within a couple of months since the embassy in Tashkent does not have a big waiting list.

[groovlstk]

We were friends first.  We remain friends now. I see no reason to cut off All contact between 2 good close friends who have built trust together. If she calls I will answer. Cutting her off would break trust and negate everything I gave her, making me a hypocrite.  She has not hurt me that deeply. I feel free now. 

Misha

I've been through a similar situation, and since we're all different I don't profess to have any answers; my observations come from my own experience.

The first problem with this arrangement is that you love this woman. She may be fine with keeping you at arm's length as a friend, but for you it will be quite difficult. You'll always be hoping on some level that she'll change her mind and love you back. When you date new women while continuing to see her on occasion, you'll always have your ex as a reference point and will constantly compare other girls to her, and it's not fair to them because they'll always come up short.

Second problem is that you seem to be attributing her decision to split to a single incident involving a phone call from your ex. It's second nature to want to hinge such a life-altering decision on a single episode, that way you can think "if only I hadn't taken that call we'd still be together." Yet in all likelyhood this has been a long time coming, and blaming yourself is not only unfair but won't do a lick of good.

If this woman had very strong romantic feelings for you, not to mention love, she wouldn't have given up on you so easily. You can rationalize it by attributing it to cultural differences or to her earlier shabby treatment in past relationships, but it all comes down to the same thing.

If she truly cared about you as a friend, she'd bid you adieu and let you start over from scratch because that's what you really need.

[Mishenka]

Hey Billy, right one the money, I know all about the little lies, like the original one about her living alone,inviting me to dinner and cook for me. When I met her at Starbucks to follow her to there she changes plans.  Oh I told you a little lie, I dont have apartment, I live where I work. You will have to wait for this dinner.

Here ya go,, a little sample for ya cut and pasted from an email: If this doesnt look like chemistry I need a dictionary definition.

My Cuddle bear
 
 I love to read the message about kissing, I want to read it again and again. It's like a wonderful song with out music. After, we saw each other we already developed a romantic story in our massages. words and sentences give me  hard work for my heart because it beat so fast This feelings grab me and lead to up.. " Ya lublu tebja ochen silno"  The most beuatiful sentance.  You are so amazing, you understand my Russian personality you are know a lot about Russian and give me chance to porticipat in your story and be your main character. You read my mind and give me everything that i want to hear.
I am happy,too, right now and greatful for this . I want to go further and follow in your footsteps. My dream only about you
 
Some day, you will smell open flowers from my body. my legs will naket and skirt will short . My body will want your kisses. I will move slow and get excited from my sexy movement. Your eyes will desire me. I'll touch your face with my warm hands. You'll kiss me in my open lips and your toung inter in my open mouth. My hands will play with your hair and my voice will calm and sensual and whisper sweet words about pleasant thing that we can give each other. Your hands will make me hot and wet.........

We already did, we had  sparks and fire will be later.
 
Tatiana

[Misha]

Here ya go,, a little sample for ya cut and pasted from an email: If this doesnt look like chemistry I need a dictionary definition.

My Cuddle bear
 

Well, it sounds like hokey online virtual sex. Again, it is hard to judge this because I do not know the woman. However, what a woman says (or writes) is not necessarily what she feels. What we know: she was divorced, started a relationship with you (maybe had ulterior motives) and then after 9 weeks realized that she did not "feel" any chemistry. My guess: she was testing the waters after 5 years off the dating market and is moving on. She wants you as a "friend" likely to have a back-up plan for any slow weekends: i.e. you pay for the date and you may get friendship with benefits. In the meantime, she will be looking for someone to suit her tastes.

Time to move on. The longer you draw it out, the harder it will be for you. 

[Mishenka]

Billy,, I can see there is always a lot of fantasy in relationships, but here's one more that came after that, kinda interesting: I can laugh now, but,, man when a guy get's an email like this it super charges his ego and a few other things. Ha Ha. I think half of chemistry  is fantasy anyway!  sure looks that way here. Friends with Bennies would not be a problem with me and this girl.

Hello my sexy and romantic cuddle bear
 
Your song is beautiful.
 
Our messages  like a dance together. Do you feel it?
I feel you are my type of man
 
You know, what i did this morning? I usually practice belly dance in the morning, it's good exercice and I feel good during the day. But today after i read your massage, I dress very sexy in my Mini Dress and stocking. I took a big mirror and played exotic dance.  I touched my self and I moved very sexy. My imagination was about you.  I imagined you watch at me, you touch me.  Mmmmm........... I feel so good. I want to be very relax with you.

One more, Help me to learn english, don't hesitate to correct me, please.
 
See you today, call me because i forgot what time we are going to meet tonight.
 
Have a great day
Tatiana

[Mishenka]

gabaub, I dont think we need virtual sex when she lives 20 minutes away. she was just expressing herself and her feelings at the time.  Feelings do change. It's very hard for a woman to keep my interest.  Maybe she is the same way with men?   This is a lot more simple than we all think it to be.  You could all be right, or half right, or totally wrong. :-))  I donno.  It doesnt matter anymore.  I have wonderful memories of us together.  Memories are like pictures, photographs in our mind.  whats the old saying, "a picture paints a thousand words"?  something like that.

Mishenka

[Misha]

gabaub, I dont think we need virtual sex when she lives 20 minutes away. she was just expressing herself and her feelings at the time.  Feelings do change. It's very hard for a woman to keep my interest.  Maybe she is the same way with men?

Well her ex kept her attention for five years?!? Again, no sense dwelling when these things happen.

[Mishenka]

Her ex kept her attention for 1 year with the excitement of coming to the USA,, She kept comparing us and often said he was romantic like me, when they first met,, but that soon changed, and she was trapped in the marriage for 4 years trying to prepare herself to get out of it.  Like most RW when they frist arrive here, she was overwhelmed with the USA. Plus they were married, we were just dating. huge  difference.  )

[DKMM]

Misha,  you cannot remain friends with her.  I repeat, do NOT try to be her friend.  Have some pride, thank her and tell her goodbye!  That might make her want you again (I know these types), but that's her problem. 

What to do next to clear your head of her is another thing altogether.  Men have different remedies they have tried over the years and only you know what works best.  Extreme examples include a week in Pattaya and loads of alcohol. 

If you can do something to distract you for a few weeks you are in the clear.

Billy, you aren't kidding man, this is getting ridiculous.  I am glad I pulled the trigger early on filing (as risky and bullheaded as that was) because I can hardly take this waiting.  We will wait as long as Turbo did in total if things go without any hitches.

[BillyB]

Misha, I think others will agree with me here, the two letters you posted sound like letters we get from scammers. The women try to get us horny because they want something. Think "lie". It's very likely she writes those words to every guy. Sorry, but those letters have nothing to do with chemistry emotionally or mentally.

[Mir]

Yeah I agree with Billy, typical scammer posts. Why was she writing all that to someone who lives near?Well maybe she was writing to other long distance admirer/s and copy/pasting to Misha.

Are there any posts that talk about you touching her where it matters? That would be her inner feelings.

Is this another 'Dilemma' thread in the making?

[tim 360]

Misha,  You are getting very good advice and although it is not what you really want to hear; I'm afraid it is right on the mark.  Please no rationalizing her or you or motives or anything.  Just completely forget her, forget friends---she'll only use you--she knows very well how to press your buttons and play you.  Sure ya had the schlit kicked outta you.  Just get up, walk tall and walk away from her.  This chick sound like misery.  There are far better women in this world.

[Mishenka]

Guys , Tanya went out of her way to show she is not a scammer. she would not let me pay for anything more than a cup of coffee at $1.60 or a small dinner and glass of wine. She was the same way in person as she was in her letters. I only posted these two to show chemistry was originally there, real or fake, she would not waste 10 weeks of her time with me if she wasn't interested. She wanted more than what we had together. If sex was the main issue she would have said so.  There were just no emotions behind it, not the kind of chemistry she needed to stay with me.  She's a good actress,  she showed emotion, fire and sparks up to now.  If its gone, its gone.  Also the reason I know its not sex, near the end of our phone convo, she said, no need to be lonely, call if you need it,,, referring to a friends with Bennie's sleep over. I won't go there with my heart,   for me that's nonsense. I don't do friends with benefits. The girl wants to be free to play the field and didn't want me to get hurt more later on if we got too serious and I caught her in it.  it was clear in the convo she was asking to bow out so she could play.  This is common when a women has been divorced,  dates again, gets her ego stoked and raises her self esteem,  then she feels more confident, that she can get any guy. So, there you have it.   Nadya did this same thing,, I want to break up with you but I still want sex. Nadya was crazy, but fun. The deeper the love, the deeper the pain separating.

I saw Tanya three times a week, talked every other day.  She was always horny,, sure, and she misses intimacy just like all of us when we don't have a full time partner. She is very sensual, very sexy and hot,, sure,  all of these women are when they are 37,  in the prime of a woman's life.  What she wrote in emails she also said to my face as we held hands sitting in restaurants eating, or trying on clothes at womens shops in the mall.  She nearly gave me heart attack in those dressing rooms, just watching her move in and out of dresses got me all hot and that was her plan.  She wanted sex just like any of us do, and didn't have a problem being open about her needs. She expressed herself well and I did the same.  I'm not afraid to tell a woman I want her, and I want her right now.  

These things you can't hide, you just have to look in her eyes and see,  its right there.  I know this look,  I saw it enough in Nadya, and when this woman wanted sex, she took it. I mean she took my hand, nearly dragged me up stairs,  pushed me into the shower with her and then tossed me on the bed soaking wet.  She liked to  be very much in control, and then some times they like you in control.  It's fun to play in the bedroom,  it makes life interesting.

I don't want to see Tanya again,  I will move on.  I wish her the best in life. Now that I compare her position in life to mine, we were not the best match,  she wouldn't fit in with my friends well, who are mostly European, who view most Russian women the same.  I don't agree with their stereotype that RW had to be a "working girl" at some point in their life, therefore they are not good wives, not faithful.   Maybe they know more than I do?  

I have gotten an education how these women are treated by their Russian men, thus the main reason they won't re marry one. Only Lena my first RW  was openly cheating on me and seems proud to tell me of her many men. To the point of bragging that all men want to sleep with her.  This was true. She was 26 and a perfect 10 with the biggest blue eyes that no man could refuse.  One thing common about all these women, is how they were all treated by husbands before the marriage and after are two completely different ways with these men.

Experience is the best teacher.

Misha

[Misha]

I saw Tanya three times a week, talked every other day.  She was always horny,, sure, and she misses intimacy just like all of us when we don't have a full time partner. She is very sensual, very sexy and hot,, ... She wanted sex just like any of us do, and didn't have a problem being open about her needs. She expressed herself well and I did the same.  I'm not afraid to tell a woman I want her, and I want her right now. 

These things you can't hide, you just have to look in her eyes and see,  its right there.  I know this look,

I don't want to see Tanya again,  I will move on. 

I have gotten an education how these women are treated by their Russian men, thus the main reason they won't re marry one.

Experience is the best teacher.

Misha

Misha, I don't know where you find these women. Rather than blaming the Russian men, you might want to seriously look at the behavior of the women in question. It seems you got an education as to how some women treat their men. To be honest, I am really sympathizing with the ex-Russian husbands based on what you have written.

Also, what is it that you miss about Tanya? It seems to me that the main focus of the relationship was the carnal. My main impression remains: she came out of a divorce, needed some sex, found you, was satiated, then moved on in search of greener pastures. You seem very intent on rationalizing all of it and you seem to be putting her on a pedestal.

[BillyB]

I have gotten an education how these women are treated by their Russian men, thus the main reason they won't re marry one. Only Lena my first RW  was openly cheating on me and seems proud to tell me of her many men. To the point of bragging that all men want to sleep with her.  This was true. She was 26 and a perfect 10 with the biggest blue eyes that no man could refuse.  One thing common about all these women, is how they were all treated by husbands before the marriage and after are two completely different ways with these men.

Experience is the best teacher.

Misha, I too am sympathizing RM after what you wrote. The sooner you change your line of thinking, the healthier you'll be in your next relationship. No wonder these women like you...when they need you. You are sympathetic to them no matter how much wrong they do. They use you for a booty call, then recommend you to their friends, they cheat on you, they brag about other men in front of you and write sexually laced letters making you think you're special. If they do this with you, they do it with all men. RM will not accept this and maybe that's why they don't want to be with RM. I guess they prefer AM who bow down to them no matter how they act. If you decide to play their game, have yourself checked out occasionally for diseases the women may have acquired from other men. Don't let them jerk you around like a yo-yo anymore.

There's been lots of good advice here from everyone. You have a choice. From here on out, learning the hard way is one path, the other is absorbing wisdom from others and applying it.

[Mishenka]

Billyb,  My education on how RM treat their wives and girl friends comes also from first hand experience, not just taking their word for it.  I'm not talking about hollywood movies here.  I'm talking about being stuck in the middle of it.  Also from the childrens point of view who see it first hand. So I disagree with this line of thinking, to sympathize with RM.  This is serious busniess for a RW to decide to leave her country and family and come to something totally unknown to her.  Then to find some AM can possibly be equally as abusive really sucks the life out of them, as Nadya found out. She is not alone in her experence.

I've been around the world more than 22 times over the last 6 years, Im no newby by any stretch of ones imagination.  There isn't much I haven't seen and heard with my own eyes and ears.  I probably will never be an expert on anything. I think I actually know less now than I thought I knew before.

[Misha]

And the women you describe are not abusive? From everything you describe they are EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE! Trust me, when Tanya gets together with her friends, they are laughing at you and your "long songs." You clearly are finding women that cheat on their husbands and partners and when they get tired of one man they cite "chemistry" and move on. Other than the sex, did you really share anything with these women?

[William3rd]

Wait a minute- is this guy claiming his relationships are with MARRIED women?

That is no relationship at all. . . . .

Oh well, that is what ignore is for, I guess. . . . .

[Misha]

Wait a minute- is this guy claiming his relationships are with MARRIED women?

That is no relationship at all. . . . .

Oh well, that is what ignore is for, I guess. . . . .

No, but he did write that Nadya did cheat on him. Clearly there is a pattern as to the type of Russian woman he attracts 

[WmGO]

You shot yourself in the foot.  A woman, whether AW or RW, really appreciates being adored, and adoration does not include having "touchy feely" talks with women from your past. 

You said it yourself - you would not like it if the situation were reversed.  And I imagine that there was much more than one overheard phone call.  You probably talked frequently to Tatiana about your ex-.

It is best never to mention past women.  Past is past.  Bringing their names up does no good.   At best, it proves to the woman sitting in front of you that she is not the center of your universe.  Saying something bad about past women is also not good.

I do not know why, but Americans seem preoccupied with past relationships.  When dating AW, I disliked how many would use me as a therapist about their past men, particularly recent divorcees.  Perhaps they were testing me to see if I had a sensitive side, yet it did nothing for me. 

If one enters a serious relationship, one needs to discuss the other's past to enable a deeper understanding, especially how the past may influence their current behavior.  But that is done once and then never discussed again.  Certainly it is not dredged up and used in arguments.

Good post and I agree. 'tis a mystery how Americans like to dwell on feelings and emotions and the past..........

[Muj]

 What she wrote in emails she also said to my face as we held hands sitting in restaurants eating, or trying on clothes at womens shops in the mall.  She nearly gave me heart attack in those dressing rooms, just watching her move in and out of dresses got me all hot and that was her plan.  
Misha

Did she find sexy you in those dresses Misha?
 
Joking aside, date her friend if her friend is actually interested.