The train came off the tracks

[Ranetka]

DKMM,

Whatever people here are saying noone but you and her know if you two are right for each other. It is hard to see things clearly when you are feeling very emotional. You can not let this girl go. I think you do not have to make a decision right now. If I were you I would take a time off. I would agree for not seing each other, not making plans for a couple of months. Not calling the relationship off, but taking time to cool down and reflect for what happened. And make a decision then.

[BillyB]

DKMM,

Whatever people here are saying noone but you and her know if you two are right for each other.

Ranetka, you are right if you imply most of us here do not know DKMM's fiancee and relationship but we do know DKMM's reaction to his fiancee's behavior and it's not good.

Now if DKMM came here to the forum and said he loves how his fiancee hides him from the world since he's not mentioned on his fiancee's facebook site, then I would say he found his woman.

If DKMM said he loves how his fiancee is never home on weekends and misses scheduled calls and is full of excuses, then I would say he found his woman.

If DKMM posted that letter of her's here and says that kind of language turns him on to the point he is wanting to throw her on the bed and make love to her, then I would say he found his woman.

While one man may love a woman who does drugs and has tattoos and piercings all over her body to the point it gets him horny, another man may turned off with a woman like that. Different strokes for different folks. But based on DKMM's reaction to his fiancee's behavior in this thread, he does not love what's happening to him and most likely he's in for rough ride if he pursues what he doesn't like.

[Serebro]

.. and then he asked me - what is the sense of dealing with that wormy apple when the orchard is full of apples ready for the pickin'.

I am sitting on a diet so I was attracted with BC's remark about apples...
In fact an apple having a worm inside is considered to be a good apple in Russia.It means that the apple is bad chemical elements free, so if the worm can survive and likes the apple, you can eat it, it's "healthy"!
On the opposite, many imported apples look good but they have  watery taste and and were grown up artificially with a help of special chemical liquids...
I remember that at the beginning of the 90-ies when people bought beautifully looking big apples with no worms inside they laughed asking if the apples had been brought from Chernobyl.

DKMM, why would I like to see your mother?! I guess it's because she doesn't like your idea of marrying a Russian girl?!
Well, I can understand her, if I'd had a son I would have never let him go to Russia to look for a wife

[timothe]

I am sitting on a diet so I was attracted with BC's remark about apples...
In fact an apple having a worm inside is considered to be a good apple in Russia.It means that the apple is bad chemical elements free, so if the worm can survive and likes the apple, you can eat it, it's "healthy"!
On the opposite, many imported apples look good but they have  watery taste and and were grown up artificially with a help of special chemical liquids...
I remember that at the beginning of the 90-ies when people bought beautifully looking big apples with no worms inside they laughed asking if the apples had been brought from Chernobyl.

LOL Serebro and BC.  Such a wonderful demonstration of the cultural differences between Russians and non-Russians!!

[I/O]

Hmm well now she's ready to see me during holidays on my terms.  Anybody here surprised?  Maybe we are both too stubborn.

These three statements linked together simply horrify me. This show ain't over by a long shot. I came in here shortly after the P/G saga and only picked up the tail end of the ridiculousness, but this one has gotta be the most ridiculous since.  :hairraising: :hairraising:

I/O

[DKMM]

OK OK I have to respond again because i just feel like it.  The holiday parties and family things start tomorrow so I still have some time (and i'm putting off my last minute gift buying yet again tonight).

Daveman, no i was not using a threat to get anything from her.  I had no more interest in continuing this because of her inability to put me as her priority.  I will not accept being her 2nd thought on top of her doubts of even coming here.   You can't just try to build your life around someone that isn't putting in at least close to the same effort.  Although I'm learning that happens in this situation more than some on here admit.  It did work because her friends already know that I dumped her...which I doubt she would share unless she knew I wasn't playing around.

Billy, you have thoughtful points and questions.  I guess if I have to list the things that made E marriage material I'll oblige some:  She understands me better than any other girl has.  When she was more in love with me, she knew exactly how to make me happy and pursued it with zeal.  Her personality has some nice strong points that I look for in a woman (although most of those traits are common to RW):  Her attitude towards marriage, family, money, religion, politics and lifestyle mirror my own.  Before recently, she did tend to respect me in spite of her strong personality.  Conversation with her was usually enjoyable, we could talk about things for days on end when together.  Also, she remembers the little things I tell her and explains how she wants to improve her character for me as long as I give her guidance (not sure how well that worked).  OK I'll stop there.

As for the ring retrieval method, I wanted it done promptly, by someone I trust.  That would be J, who works less than a metro stop away.  I didn't want E to play any games with me regarding sending it back.  She's not my fiance so she shouldn't have the ring.  I can get it from her whenever, we tend to cross paths frequently.  I trust her completely, much more than DHL.  No way would she do anything funny regarding that rock.  J is not an ex, she was an interest at some time but that was a couple months out of our multiple year friendship.  J is the reason I ever met E, went to Russia or even joined RWD.  Her parents even have sent me gifts through J the last 2 times I saw her.

I'm already feeling cooler, which is why I'm liking this time off.  I hope to keep it that way for a while.  I am not going to start looking at other RW profiles yet, that isn't enjoyable.  

You are right timothe, that's hilarious and oh so familiar.  

[Daveman]

My apologies DKMM, for some reason I was under the impression that you were headed back to visit her over the holidays because she had changed to meet your terms.  I think you're doing exactly the right thing by taking some time to clear your head.  I had a bit of a forced hiatus cast upon me, and truly, it was for the best for me to get away from anything RW related for a couple of months.  While I'm sure I still fall into the "RW Idiot" category, I have a much clearer focus and perspective on things.  Get your head clear, get focused, learn the lessons, and move on when you're ready.

Dave

[KenC]

Daveman,
It is very understandable that you thought DKMM was going to visit when he posts things like:

Hmm well now she's ready to see me during holidays on my terms.  Anybody here surprised?  Maybe we are both too stubborn.

And of course, the drama is not yet over by a long shot IMO.  Get your popcorn ready.
KenC

[Jazzyclassy]

Daveman,
It is very understandable that you thought DKMM was going to visit when he posts things like:
And of course, the drama is not yet over by a long shot IMO.  Get your popcorn ready.
KenC

I do not know what is wrong really maybe it is Christmas or something else ))

 I agree with KenC again  :noidea:

[Son of Clyde]

It must be difficult to be rational when the lady is telling you things you want to hear. But why is she not always there for you?

We are a feeling society and the kind, gentle words are reassuring that things are ok.

Maybe it is why good con men can make you feel like you are their best friend before they take your money.

Think this out and listen to P T Barnum.

[Mir]

Think this out and listen to P T Barnum.

Rather listen to Joseph ("Paper Collar Joe") Bessimer

[DKMM]

*UPDATE*

OK long story short, E convinced me that we deserve one last shot and she was willing to push aside her earlier obligations in order to meet up with me.  Wherever is cheapest was her mantra.  It ended up being Istanbul Turkey, where I currently post this.

I went into this with a cautionary approach towards our relations and apparently she did as well.  Well, I can say it was a mistake in the sense of hoping we would somehow ignite that old flame.  It was also a success in that all questions, mysteries and doubts about our relationship are gone and I completely understand what happened and why.

The plan was to spend the 1st 3 days together and then the last 3 days with her best friend who moved here a few months ago.  This friend was supposed to be out of town until then so we were on our own till the 7th of january.  We were to spend the last two nights at this friend's home.

E showed up and things were immediately thrown off track.  She told me that her friend is now in town the whole time and we are going to spend all evening with them.  I was very tired from the jet lag and had some plans for us but that all got thrown out the window.  Actually all of my plans were tossed aside as she had her own agenda for this time now and that meant her best friend 1st and I can tag along.  She got very brusque with me at the get go and totally misread my attempts at being playful.

E showed extreme negative emotions and got to the point where she was telling me it was a mistake to come here and yelling at me etc (I eventually returned the favor).  I'll spare the details but it was obvious she was not into it anymore at all.  Her excuse: the visa took too long, she needs personal contact to build relations and can't build them over the phone and internet etc.  so by the next day she said we should start over emotionally as just friends and see what happens on this trip.  I could agree to that because I already had one foot out the door but wanted to see this thing through to the end.

The end occured the two nights later.

[groovlstk]

*UPDATE*

OK long story short, E convinced me that we deserve one last shot and she was willing to push aside her earlier obligations in order to meet up with me. 

I'm waiting for the next *UPDATE* wherein you give her one last, final, ultimate, promise-this-is-the-last-shot chance.

For the love of Mike, DKMM, pick up your self-respect where it's lying in the gutter and please let this be THE END.

[DKMM]

Before i finish this, I do want to say I knew going to this trip that it was most likely going to have this result but I did it anyway.  And this series of events is a very truncated version.

E had been really distant with me most of the day ignoring me mostly and being really playful with her friend (the day before she was warmer, its like she is Jekyll and Hyde)  Let me tell you, when a RW wants you to not feel loved they are just as good at doing it as they are at showing you that you are loved.  E bought a fur coat and had me pull out the cash from my bank account to cover it (she had to use a specific bank for hers so it was a convenience thing).  $600 btw.  on the way back to our hotel (her friend was with us the whole time) E was talking about where her friend could go on her russian visa.  She said montenegro, and I disagreed.  I really thought I had this correct and so E eventually bet me "a thousand dollars I'm right".  OK I shook on it, playfully.  Then i told her I won't make her pay when I win.  

Well we went by her bank and she refused to get my money back because i bet her a grand earlier and i owe her $400.  Ha ha ha not funny but she kept pushing it.  Fine we went to a internet cafe because i was sure i was right, but oops ok I was wrong (and laughing about it with her friend).  Well E said it should teach me a lesson and she won't pay me back now for that coat.  She went on and on even storming off for a moment to collect herself.  Her friend started getting on her about it, because it was obvious that E was being not only stubborn but incredibly stupid.  Well E kept on pushing it, yelling, calling me names, and showing a side of her I was never able to imagine.  The fact that her best friend agreed with me on all counts made it even more obvious.  OK I've had enough at this point, I just want my money back and I'll send E packing because I know enough about her after the past few days.  Seeing as she was outnumbered,  E relented and said she will get my money on the way to dinner.  Too late of course.  By the time we got to the room we both agreed she should pack up and leave.  

A drawn out parting ways talk occured.  She apologized about her bad character and said she knows she is a very difficult person and obviously we arent for each other.  Her friend said I'm a very nice guy and E has mental problems which I should not worry myself about anymore.  I gave the maybe we can be friends later talk then we left.  She got the money out of her account, literally draining it down to less than 1000 rubles and paid me back.  

It was at the end of all this that I figured out her traumatic life event 7 years ago that seeded her issues.  I won't share it on here, but its just a sad situation all around.  I am foolish for trying when it was clear it wasn't working, but we both agreed that we came to Turkey with just a fading hope we could resurrect things.  She wants to have a parting meeting before I come home tomorrow night, so I guess I'll just get the rest of my thoughts out then.

I don't really blame her for this not working, even though she treated me like crap.  That's because she probably couldn't help her feelings and at least she never took advantage of my generosity monetarily which should could have easily done.  Also, I did not always show much patience with her when I should have because of my own misunderstandings of her and the RW ways of communicating.  I am partially responsible for this mess myself.

At least I got off this train before she got the visa and I learned a hell of a lot about RW, myself and life in general.  I'm totally crushed by the finality of it and also embarassed for what I have to face at home where literally 100's of friends, family and colleagues were eagerly awaiting E to come and me proving to them that pursuing RW is not crazy.  My life for the past six months revolved around bringing E home and marrying her and now I have to undue this whole thing (and get her things back to her, sell the wedding dress, get the ring from J etc).  My work suffered too not to mention the financial hit I took by taking all these trips.  I will be very careful before trying RW again if ever.  At the very least, I will date some AW before thinking about getting back to the motherland.

If any of this was rambling keep in mind the jet lag, the lost sleep due to nervousness and being alone here for a while now with no ways to talk to anyone.  Which is probably why I wrote this because I have nothing to do for 3 days except dink around town alone and think about what happened.

[BC]

DKMM,

Well you are in a fantastic city, one of my favorites so don't even dwell on this and enjoy the rest of your stay.  Lots to see, lots to do and there are some mighty fine Turkish girls around.  There is also a clothing market that is frequented by many, often good looking Russian women buying warez to sell in FSU. 

Load up on suits while you are there.. quality is great and prices cheap.

As with any city of 12 million++ don't go wandering at night alone outside the tourist areas.  If you are staying at a decent hotel, the concierge or porter in front arranging taxi's can take care of about any uhm... 'desires' or destinations you may have in mind - much safer that way.  He will also let you know what the normal taxi fare should be.

Cheers.

[DKMM]

BC, I know what you mean.  I have made a trip out of it, but it isn't much fun when I think about how we would have had fun seeing these sights together.  And knowing she is also in this town not far from me probably seeing the same things with her friend makes it worse.  I just want to get out, but its prohibitively expensive, so I wait one more day.

I got drunk last night after it all went down and very nearly did something stupid like what you are saying but fortunately something inside of me said just sleep.  I'm avoiding alcohol the rest of the time.  I disagree about Turkish girls, they aren't attractive to me at all.  Right now another woman is the furthest thing from my mind but I'll bounce back eventually.

[Shadow]

I agree that Istanbul it not the worst place to be stuck alone.
Sorry for the finish, but at least there will be no more doubts in your mind about could or would have...

Get the jetlag out of your system, sample the Turkish women (do not forget any occasional Dutch blonde you might encounter) and relax.
You will need a break from international dating anyway, as next time trust might be an issue. On the other hand you have now packed all experience you need, the only thing that is missing is a  keeper.

[Jumper]

I learned a hell of a lot about RW

well at least about one mental one,that had unresolved seriuos issues.

i've dated lots of flakes in the US as well..
it dint turn me off on a whole culture of women...



sorry for the ending,but you knew where this was going...



anyway as far as the ring, why in the heck dint she bring it with her?

you both knew it was likely the end,,
or a new beginning? where she should be wearing it,
or giving it back.


no big deal,,just seems odd..?

and it was nice that she could somehow forgo her prior *obligations*
to meet her fiancee for new years

yet really have the trip revolve around  spending time with her her friend



i'm sorry man,,but there are PLENTY of self centered immature girls (and guys) out there,,
i wouldnt blame any of this on her being Russian.

most of this falls on you for dealing with it,
it was qucking and walking like a duck from the first date.

learn from it to improve yourself..
dont just chaulk it up to culture or to her shortcomings..

(dont mean to beat you when your down,,but you seemed over her, a few times !
move the freek on already ..lol)

[I/O]

Anyone else seeing Wiz and Mirror here? Watch the space, this show ain't over yet. BTW, if you can't find a pretty cute honey in Istanbul, you've simply got your head stuck right up you-know-where.........pardon the pun, but I always thought Istanbul in the women sense was something of a Turkey shoot.

BTW, just out of interest, who paid her ticket? What does the friend do for a living? Lot's of RW's "Work" in Istanbul.

I/O

[KenC]

well at least about one mental one,that had unresolved seriuos issues.

i've dated lots of flakes in the US as well..
it dint turn me off on a whole culture of women...



sorry for the ending,but you knew where this was going...



anyway as far as the ring, why in the heck dint she bring it with her
you both knew it was likely the end,,
or a new beginning? where she should be wearing it,
or giving it back.


no big deal,,just seems odd..??

AJ,
DKMM's other girlfriend is suppose to have the ring in her possesion.

and it was nice that she could somehow forgo her prior *obligations*
to meet her fiancee for new years

yet really have the trip revolve around  spending time with her her friend



i'm sorry man,,but there are PLENTY of self centered immature girls (and guys) out there,,
i wouldnt blame any of this on her being Russian.

most of this falls on you for dealing with it,
it was qucking and walking like a duck from the first date.

learn from it to improve yourself..
dont just chaulk it up to culture or to her shortcomings..
(dont mean to beat you when your down,,but you seemed over her, a few times !
move the freek on already ..lol)

Right on the mark AJ,
KenC

[catzenmouse]

Sad to say but this really is just another of the same ol' same ol' .... yawn .... and like Groov mentioned we'll probably see it again, and again, and again...

[Makkin]

Hang in there DK as it's gonna get better and a smarter you is always better M8.

Makkin

[MaxxumUSA]

I guess with any woman anywhere there are SOME issues to deal with...

But...

I think DKMM is missing the whole point of seeking a woman from FSU.  That is the quantity and quality of women available.

It took me about one week in my search to realize the true extent of this reality.  Dating AW you almost don't have a choice but to put up with more crap because they are so much in control.  But with a RW if something is fishy it's easy to find another beautiful woman without those BS issues.

Why would you spend ALL this time on this one woman before moving on?  I think I remember this back and forth like 6 or 8 months ago.

Like others I agree that this is not E's fault at all.  This is your fault for putting up with her crap.

You CAN find a great FSU woman...  If your gut tells you one time something is wrong it might just be paranoia which is normal.  But when your gut SCREAMS at you 20 times something is wrong it is time to listen and move on to the next woman.

- Maxxum

[timothe]

All I have to say about this is.....good decision. 

Whatever you paid to make this trip is peanuts in comparison to the costs of getting her to the USA on a Visa and then determining that things were wrong. 

Congratulations!!  You made your first next step into manhood. 

[WmGO]

Never seen such a glutton for punishment 

Obviously, and this is not an uncommon tact for a RW to take, E had no love and absolutely no respect for DKMM and went on the "unexpensive" trip to Turkey with every intention of crapping on him just to delight herself at how
weak and pathetic DKMM is. There are a lot of RW out there that will go out
of there way to do that to a man who is weak and stupid. In their minds they are completely justified in doing so - it is an Eastern/Russian thing. And she got what she wanted and to which she felt entitled as a RW: a free vacation in a foreign country, a new fur coat and to crap all over a man thereby proving herself once again to be smarter and stronger than him........

Moral of story:

If the man is weak
If the man is stupid
If the man is socially inept
If the man is a dufus
If the man has no cods
It the man is indecisive
If the man is clueless
If the man cannot stand up for himself
If the man allows himself to be used and abused
If the man is willing to disrespect himself in hopes of receiving love
If the man  has no common sense...........

Then he should not venture into shark infested waters........