Money changes everything

[Photo Guy]

Anastassia, the trick with credit cards is to own one or two,
AND seldom use them. Use them sparingly.

[KenC]

Ok, well I had to put my hip boots on cause the stuff is getting a little deep here.

First off for someone such as Beachcomber who if I recall all these posts right has a high maintenance woman and had to struggle a bit upon returning to the USA.   Sorry, but I don't have much sympathy.   One of my criteria was a woman who was not high maintenance.  If it wasn't important to you then the balls in your court when it comes to keeping her happy.

Second the whole tone here really comes off like everyone is saying RW are commodities to be bought and sold.  Even the RW are sounding like that.   I won't deny that on average a highly successful man will end up with a woman who is more attractive than a ditch digger usually will.  I would prefer to think that some of the qualities that made him highly successful are the same that made him desirable to women and not that his success alone was the draw.   Personally I never rated looks as all that important.  Much like Gator said as long as she was attractive to me.   I am not saying I did not end up with a young and to me beautiful woman but neither of those was a critical thing to me.   It certainly is not because I provide a life of luxury.   As I have said before the house I live in was purchased for $ 3900.00 and I drive a 5 year old pickup truck. 

Third,  A guy must have an income of $ 50,000 or more to succeed,  Bull.   The first guy I ever met from a forum had a serious problem with the Affidavit of support for his K-1 and had to get a cosponsor because his average income was under $ 10 grand.  I don't really know the income of my friend from Michigan but I do believe it is under 50 grand.   They are tickled to death to have just moved into a new double wide that her income cleaning helps them be able to afford.  Now are the women of these two guys beauty queens, No, actually the one with the 10 grand income his gal's face is a mass of scars.   Pretty but very badly scarred from her first husband in Russia who is currently serving a life sentence for murder.   The second, no maybe somewhat attractive but never going to win the Mrs Michigan contest.   The cold hard reality is not everyone is looking for the most beautiful woman in the world.  Some just want a good woman who will love them and they in turn don't offer great looks or wads of money.   There are women who just want a good man who will love them as well.   When we were stuck in A/R is spent a lot of time on VJ.   VJ is full of people with tons of love for each other but only ounces of income, people worrying about how they do a K-1 with no income because they are students, people with very average lives who met the man or woman of their dreams.    Not everyone is rich and it is not a total requirement.   Yes, if you want a beauty queen, it may be much more necessary, otherwise, no. 

I guess part of me is stupid enough to believe people can really fall in love with each other. 

Turbo,
Good post!  (Now VWRW, please revive your husband from passing out! )

I agree with you about RW almost being talked about like a commodity and especially liked your closing line!  And did you just take your first step toward becoming an OMB with the comments about high maintenance women?

I do think you need to add an * to the idea of guys being able to do this with a low income though.  They really need to study the costs involved.  I suggest jb's FAQ section for that.  While a man's income level may not be too important (as long as he can pass the minimums) he does have to be able to have the money available for the travel and costs for relocating the woman.  He could have saved it up for years, or come by it through some windfall, but he does have to be able to pay it one way or another.  The overall costs have to be considered.
KenC

[AnastassiaAsh]

Anastassia, the trick with credit cards is to own one or two,
AND seldom use them. Use them sparingly.

Thank you, Photo Guy. I am doing just that. 

Guys, I was talking about just very successful men who would like to marry 'more than cute' or very beautiful women with every other good trait in them... and who will fall in love with each other and will truly love each other. Not all successful men want just beauty, and not every beauty wants just his wallet. I would like to believe most of all the members here are like that - looking for a 'treasure' of a man or a woman... Why did KenC's wife 'turned out' to be so beautiful? Why did Lena marry KenC who 'turned out' to be so sucessful? Coincidence? I am not sure about that. Allthough those things may have not been first on their list, still I think it is only natural because probably they were looking for the whole package, for all of it in one person, and they found each other and deserve each other completely. Did they just concentrate on those traits? Of course not, but they must have paid some attention to it, right Ken? 

[Jumper]

well I , for one,
i'm quite happy that this thread came back to its senses a little ,
and that  a typical RW, isn't treated unfairly by relocating to a place of better oppurtunity and for a good husband., even one without a 6 figure income,,
and that even a man of average salary is somehow deserving of a good person in thier life ,maybe even a cute one....with good character.


*whew*
as from reading this i was becoming sure that i din't stand a chance,
 and should just stop looking..
as i shouldn't deprive some nice RW of  a chance with one of those 6 figure guys ..
(Dan, where's that *tongue firmly in cheek* emoticon ?)

i do completely agree with the last of KenC post..
I man needs to be able handle the normal expenses..
of multiple trips, relocation, providing for a family

but i do feel the thread was really winding down a road of
*only the wealthy need apply*
it was getting quite far from the reality of most peoples lives...
(but maybe accurate for the posters of RWD , i dont know? )


it was odd to me that the jest of the thread was
not seeming to consider many scenerios-

perhaps a typical RW  was working in the FSU to support her family,,
while it would be nice to not work ,and find her handsome wealthy prince,,
is it so far beyond reason  that this same RW marry a good man and into a family she might also help work to provide for..and with two incomes have a very comfortable lifestyle,and really good oppurtunities for thier children.would that be unfair..or a down grade in some way?
 There are a million variables on that situation as well, and  its not far off from many couples i know ,both in domestic and cross cultural marriages.


Also while there are plenty of westerners in debt,,
it's  a credit society afterall,  there are also many average income western men  ,
that are not in debt to thier eyeballs,may have no real debt,  have managed thier money decently, and can afford multiple trips to the FSU, as well as the normal relocation fees
,and both support a family, and in an enviroment that proviudes ample oppurtunity for advancement.(key point i believe)
 Certainly at a level above the average RW's situation , he will likely meet.
Yes , i know there are exceptions,this thread was generalizing though,
 and in a strange direction , considering the typical family.   

The typical western family is what constitutes the very bases for  *average income*?
and to portray a normal RW marrying a good man into this scenerio,
 would somehow find it a down grade...or unworthy , is pretty sad..

(sorry, intended or not,  that is how this thread was reading )

[KenC]

It is not a coincidence that rich guys get the prettiest women.  The real trick is for the guy to make sure it isn't just the money that makes the woman attracted to him.  And the other side of the coin is that it is not just the woman's looks that makes the man attracted.  While money and beauty may be the initial attractions, there has to be much more involved to reach a successful relationship.
KenC

I think this might answer you question Anastassia.  But it is more than money as I see it, successful men are usually very confident.  I was ballsy enough to think I deserved a woman of Lena's caliber.  And now that we have been married for over 8 years, I know a lesser man would be eaten alive by her! :hairraising:

An interesting story.  Lena dated a very successful photo model from Moscow.  The guy was obviously a total stud muffin and rich as hell. Italian sorts car, BMW motorcycle, total rich Moscow pad yada yada yada.  (Oh and just a couple of years older than Lena too!)  What's the problem?  This had to be a girl's wildest fantasy, right?  Well, he just wasn't strong enough to be her man. (As Cheryl Crow sings about)  Poor kid still aint over her to this day!

A couple has to fit together like a hand in a glove to have the ultimate relationship.  All things have to match up in perfect alignment to have the dream marriage.  I have to be honest with everyone though, most will not find what Lena and I found in each other.  But if you are just close to it, you're going to be a very happy couple. It doesn't have to be perfect to be good, but damn, perfect is pretty wonderful.
KenC

[KenC]

Come on AJ!

Maybe you don't have Turbo or Gator's money, but being a Tom Cruise look alike and International mortorcycle dare devil aint too friggen bad!
KenC

[Misha]

perhaps a typical RW  was working in the FSU to support her family,,
while it would be nice to not work ,and find her handsome wealthy prince,,
is it so far beyond reason  that this same RW marry a good man and into a family she might also help work to provide for..and with two incomes have a very comfortable lifestyle,and really good oppurtunities for thier children.would that be unfair..or a down grade in some way?
 There are a million variables on that situation as well, and  its not far off from many couples i know ,both in domestic and cross cultural marriages.

The last two men that I knew who married Russian women had little income. One is a student who spent three years in Russia teaching English. He now works part-time at minimum wage while studying. His wife has found a job stuffing flyers in newspaper. The other, also a student, married a woman while he was in Kazakhstan studying Russian for a couple of years. Now, he works in a store, while applying for graduate school. Neither rich, neither making anywhere near 6-figure incomes and both married.

[Turboguy]

Ken,  Thanks for the nice compliment.  It is even better coming from you since I know you only say things you mean.

Let me qualify my previous post a little.   I see tons of people marrying someone from abroad and really having a very low income or sometimes being a student and having no income.   Almost always it was not a case where someone went looking for a mate using agencies and letters and so forth as most of the guys here do.  Most always the low income situations are a case of just two people meeting somehow and falling in love.   The only exception I know of is the guy with the woman whose Ex is in prison and he does have some assets and some potential for a decent income and he did go looking for a wife and mother for his children.

For someone to search for a mate from the FSU using any source even including FreePersonals it does take some money.   I do see people getting married and being happy without a large income.  There are women who only want a fairly wealthy man.  I actually had two RW tell me that would not accept a rich man and wanted either a poor man or someone with an average income.   I can't think that someone who lives in an area with a low cost of living who manages his money wisely could do this quite well without a big income.   There is nothing I can say on that subject that has not been said a dozen times before. 

[KenC]

Ken,  Thanks for the nice compliment.  It is even better coming from you since I know you only say things you mean.

Let me qualify my previous post a little.   I see tons of people marrying someone from abroad and really having a very low income or sometimes being a student and having no income.   Almost always it was not a case where someone went looking for a mate using agencies and letters and so forth as most of the guys here do.  Most always the low income situations are a case of just two people meeting somehow and falling in love.   The only exception I know of is the guy with the woman whose Ex is in prison and he does have some assets and some potential for a decent income and he did go looking for a wife and mother for his children.

For someone to search for a mate from the FSU using any source even including FreePersonals it does take some money.   I do see people getting married and being happy without a large income.  There are women who only want a fairly wealthy man.  I actually had two RW tell me that would not accept a rich man and wanted either a poor man or someone with an average income.   I can't think that someone who lives in an area with a low cost of living who manages his money wisely could do this quite well without a big income.   There is nothing I can say on that subject that has not been said a dozen times before. 

OK Turbo, (our honeymoon is over now)
Mind qualifying "tons"?
KenC

[DKMM]

Grammar check Ken, he would quantify that, not qualify it.

I think Turbo is going too far now because you do need a certain amount of money to pull this off.  Its not adviseable to tell a guy he can meet, court and successfully marry a FSU woman for less than 10k, or even 20.  But a guy who already has the heart of one well that's much more manageable.  Bonus if she happens to reside stateside.

[BC]

I think a lot more could be learned with first hand reporting.  I have only seen a very few folks on board that have more or less worked things out on a shoestring (talking +- 10 to 15K or so), quite a few OTOH with figurures around 30 to 50 K.

Surely some of these 'Tons' could be enticed to share their experiences here or?

[Turboguy]

Actually I like the tons number better because neither I nor anyone has any real answers and I don't like to throw numbers around that I not only can't find a verifiable reference for and that is in reality just a wild guess on my part. 

I mentioned that I spent a lot of time on VJ while we were in A/R, I also spent a lot of time there when I was not able to be here.   I rarely see a situation here where anyone asks how to get around the 125% of poverty level requirement but VJ is full of it.   If I took a guess based on the time I spent on VJ, I would guess that 5000 people a year doing a K-1 have to deal with the problem of income.   My other comment that I will add is about us vs the real world.   We see the market for foreign brides as being the FSU, SA and Asia, however as far as K-1 visas go the FSU is a very small part of the overall K-1 picture. 

I was not implying I would suggest someone with an income of 10 grand a year to start persuing a woman from the FSU.   The courting stage can be very expensive and the marriage stage can be even more so.  I have seen guys succeed without a big income.   That can be done but if someone does not have a sizable disposable income they are not going to pull it off.   My one friend I was talking about and I have not talked to him for a long time to know how he is making out, had a taxable income for the past two years of around or even under 10 grand.  Actually he had worked to hide a little income because of his ex wife and the battle they were having over child support and the children.   It was coming back to bite him on the K-1.   One way or the other his income in reality was very small and he had persued the same tactics we all use to find his gal. 

[KenC]

Sounds like a Garth Brooks story to me.

What is vj?
KenC

[Turboguy]

Ken,  www.visajourney.com  It is a really good site to get help with Visa issues.   Go float around there for a bit and you will see that what I said was correct.

[BC]

Sounds like a Garth Brooks story to me.

What is vj?
KenC

KenC,

Visajourney.com  a site oriented more towards immigration aspects in general including all different types of applicants that have already found their mates in whatever manner.  K1 and especially FSU related is a small sub section of the site.

I spent some hours in the past reviewing activity there and got the impression that quite a few were immigrants themselves bringing extended family or a fiancee from back home.  Quite a few AW also that met boyfriends overseas IIRC.

apples and oranges imho.

[groovlstk]

Third,  A guy must have an income of $ 50,000 or more to succeed,  Bull.   The first guy I ever met from a forum had a serious problem with the Affidavit of support for his K-1 and had to get a cosponsor because his average income was under $ 10 grand. 

TG, you're one of the kindest and absolutely the most even-tempered guy I know, not just on this board, but anywhere. I admire the way you debunk many of the absolutes spouted about here. That said, if a one-eyed, one-legged, deaf, HIV+, hermaphrodite living in a dog house with a net worth of $12 came to RWD asking what his chances are of finding a beautiful, 20-something Russian woman for a wife, I have no doubt you'd advise him that it's possible to achieve his goal if he worked hard. 

Don't know if I'd put too much stock in what happens on VJ. I read the Russian forum sporadically and it's chock full of one-week wonders who are head-over-heels in love with RW who can't speak a lick of English. It's surely "possible" that some of them will succeed, but I could never bring myself to prop up their delusions. I suppose an argument can be made that guys who are infatuated with an impossible dream will never give up their delusions in the face of logic, so perhaps it's the ultimate act of kindness to patronize them in the moments before the train hits the wall - reminds me of the final scene in the novel Of Mice and Men, when George comforts and distracts his brother in the moments before the bullet hits his skull.

[Gator]

"Tell me again about the rabbits." 

I read VJ briefly when preparing my K-1.  Some people there....well, let me be kind and just say that I wonder how they ever managed to get on an airplane.

This chart shows that K-1 & K-3 petition beneficiaries from Russia are fourth among all countries.  I am not sure about the source of the data or the validity of the chart because it does not reconcile with info presented lower in the chart about consulate location.  

http://www.visajourney.com/timeline/stats.php?cfl=

[AnastassiaAsh]

And I just wonder why the minimum is so low...what is USCIS thoughts are based on? What is the minimum anyway right now? 15K? Also what would happen if the minimum is lifted to 30-50K? Seems like there will be more successful marriages and happy women overall? Am I right? What do you all guys think? Interesting...

[KenC]

I think a lot more could be learned with first hand reporting.  I have only seen a very few folks on board that have more or less worked things out on a shoestring (talking +- 10 to 15K or so), quite a few OTOH with figurures around 30 to 50 K.

Surely some of these 'Tons' could be enticed to share their experiences here or?

BC,
This may shock you, but  fall into this category.  But it all depends on the definition of "worked things out" as most of my courting was done this side of the pond. As is my MO, I did things a little different than the norm.   If you are only considering the travel costs and visas to get to America, I am certainly in that category.
KenC

[KenC]

And I just wonder why the minimum is so low...what is USCIS thoughts are based on? What is the minimum anyway right now? 15K? Also what would happen if the minimum is lifted to 30-50K? Seems like there will be more successful marriages and happy women overall? Am I right? What do you all guys think? Interesting...

Anastassia,
The number is based on 125% of the poverty level and the thought process is that that is the minimum income necessary to exist here in America.
KenC

[Admin]

OK Turbo, (our honeymoon is over now)
Mind qualifying "tons"?
KenC

I think TG was primarily referring to those he saw at Visa Journey. Here at RWD, we conducted a poll of income levels - results here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=4280.0

As you can see, there are VERY few who are in the bottom range of income - which, in the case of this particular poll, was < $40,000.

Sounds like a Garth Brooks story to me.

What is vj?
KenC

Not that it matters much - but if anyone seeks independent corroboration on this contentious point, feel free to contact Jet and ask him what his recent search uncovered.

FWIW

- Dan

[AnastassiaAsh]

KenC, what do you think I should advise to the women and men I help - the best (reasonable) would be if he earns how much or has how much savings? What answer is reasonable do you think? It is clear to me that that minimum is out of the question...

[KenC]

Actually I like the tons number better because neither I nor anyone has any real answers and I don't like to throw numbers around that I not only can't find a verifiable reference for and that is in reality just a wild guess on my part. 

I mentioned that I spent a lot of time on VJ while we were in A/R, I also spent a lot of time there when I was not able to be here.   I rarely see a situation here where anyone asks how to get around the 125% of poverty level requirement but VJ is full of it.   If I took a guess based on the time I spent on VJ, I would guess that 5000 people a year doing a K-1 have to deal with the problem of income.    My other comment that I will add is about us vs the real world.   We see the market for foreign brides as being the FSU, SA and Asia, however as far as K-1 visas go the FSU is a very small part of the overall K-1 picture. 

I was not implying I would suggest someone with an income of 10 grand a year to start persuing a woman from the FSU.   The courting stage can be very expensive and the marriage stage can be even more so.  I have seen guys succeed without a big income.   That can be done but if someone does not have a sizable disposable income they are not going to pull it off.   My one friend I was talking about and I have not talked to him for a long time to know how he is making out, had a taxable income for the past two years of around or even under 10 grand.  Actually he had worked to hide a little income because of his ex wife and the battle they were having over child support and the children.   It was coming back to bite him on the K-1.   One way or the other his income in reality was very small and he had persued the same tactics we all use to find his gal. 

From the statistics link that Gator posted, their appears to be only 120 or so participants involving Russia and Ukraine combined, far short of your 5,000 estimate.
KenC

[Admin]

From the statistics link that Gator posted, their appears to be only 120 or so participants involving Russia and Ukraine combined, far short of your 5,000 estimate.
KenC

Ken,

By any standard, VJ receives dramatically more traffic than RWD. The links Gator posted, I believe, are only to the timeline statistics. Those are posted by a VERY few VJ members who take the time. The vast majority of their members never bother posting in the timeline section - sadly.

I am not at all surprised by the numbers TG cited. VJ is a VERY well-known site, with a terrific reputation among most. The guys at ODR don't like them much - but in general, VJ is well run and we have been referencing them since the beginning of RWD as an excellent source.

- Dan

[Admin]

KenC, what do you think I should advise to the women and men I help - the best (reasonable) would be if he earns how much or has how much savings? What answer is reasonable do you think? It is clear to me that that minimum is out of the question...

Nastya,

We have run polls in the past to gather information about existing members - maybe you would like to run a poll (or pollS) to inquire about questions of this sort.

In other words - we now have a poll which helps us to know about our existing member's income - but we have never asked our members for their collective opinions on how much income should a man earn to be able to afford this endeavor.

It will, of course, be a bit tricky to pose the question - because you will need to account for things like variable expenses in different parts of the country, and debt-load and such - but with some careful wording, I think you can come up with a good question to pose to the members which will address this important issue. For that matter, if you need assistance with getting the 'right' question for the poll - I think if you just ask, guys will help to develop a correct question to get at the right answers.

Just something to consider. Oftentimes, when there are areas of uncertainty - and there are many - our members would be better served by posting a poll to collect feedback.

- Dan